Are you for or against rafting?

KTO · 02-08-2005, 03:44 PM

Propeller, you bring up a great point. If many areas were accesible to rafters, it may be less crowded. I just have a bit of an irrelavent thought though, that maybe people just like the location (is it enclosed, is there a sandbar or beach?) and would stick to their original spots. I suppose overcrowdedness could be a small problem too. The cove next to Farrar point is commonly filled with 20-60 boats on a regular summer day. And of course there are many others, like Blackey Cove, that just get taken over. I could see the toughness in the decisions!

Silver Duck · 02-08-2005, 08:47 PM

I have two thoughts to contribute to this discussion. The first is that I didn't like it the first time I encountered a teacher who was so dog lazy that he punished an entire class rather than be bothered to find and punish the specific guilty parties, and I like it even less now that I'm old enough to recognize it for the injustice it is!

There are already laws against public drunkenness, disturbing the peace, littering, public lewdness, and tresspass. The MP or even local town police need to put the effort into catching and penalizing the guilty parties. Punishing the entire boating community for the misconduct of a few members is the lazy way out and is utterly unacceptable!

The excuse that offenders will see an MP boat coming and clean up their act is also unacceptable; the concept of un-marked police cars has been around for a very long time and would work just as well on the lake as it does on land!

My second thought is that people who build or buy lakefront homes in areas that are heavily used as anchorages should have used due diligence and been aware of that use before building or buying! If they didn't,

and don't like boats anchored or rafted in front of their property, tough luck! If they were aware, and figured to roust the boaters once they moved in, even tougher luck!

End of Rant!

Silver Duck

upthesaukee · 02-08-2005, 11:47 PM

M-n-M -- Interesting you mention West Alton sand bar. We keep our boat at West Alton Marina, and while it can be very crowded on the Sand bar, east or south side of channel, and can be just as crowded on the other side, the one thing I have not seen in the two years we have had our boat at WAM are rafters blocking the channel. Are a few loud???? are a few inconsiderate by nearly running over your anchor line to get to "their" spot???? Do I enjoy being in the middle of all that???? That's a yes, yes, and a no. So, like you, I go elsewhere (the beauty of a four step ladder - swim up, climb in, life is good) and it doesn't have to be shallow.

Silver Duck --- We have called the type mentality you refer to as elementary school mentality...one kid is bad so let's all put our heads down. It has become a management style with companies as well, so it's no wonder that it is making its way into government thinking.

Education, Education, Courtesy, and Enforcement!!! sure could go a long way towards happier boating and enjoyment of the lake.

PROPELLER · 02-09-2005, 10:38 AM

Excellent posts by Silver Duck & Upthesaukee. However, as I mentioned before, the problem is that in theory the entire lake could become no rafting (except big open bays & the broads) under current law.

Maybe boaters that believe this is wrong should try to get together & find our own sponsors to write a bill that will repeal the current law that allows someone to petition for a NRZ & even take back current NRZ'S. Personally, I would even be willing to support a limit on how many boats can raft (say 5 or 6) if the current NRZ'S are repealed & the power of the safety commissioner to designate new NRZ'S by petition is eliminated. Something is better than nothing & it spreads the rafting around more evenly. As they say, a good compromise is when no one is entirely happy.

Commodore · 02-09-2005, 12:12 PM

Rafting is fine as long as it's Not In My Back Yard or waterfront. We have heard that before. Restricted rafting will not reduce boat and anchoring congestion in those areas.

I like to anchor and I also enjoy rafting up with friends. The NRZs (No Rafting Zones) are still crowded anchorages with or without rafts. Boaters are still allowed to raft no more than 2 boats in NRZs and some ignore or are unaware of those rules.

My attention is drawn to loud illegal rafting in NRZs. Most always one or more offshore style boats are involved with the raft. That's the obnoxious group with the loudest music and people. Again it is a small percent of the offshore boats that become highly visible and that adds to the perceived bad reputation of such boats on the lake .

As a boater I wish that the MP would enforce the no rafting rules more diligently. They should also make the specific anchoring and rafting rules for those NRZs more available to the boating public. How far can you anchor from the shore and other boats and rafts? The rules are different for different areas of Winnipesaukee.

The Poll questions are slightly confusing. I am in favor of rafting. I can live with the current situation with a few specified NRZs that allow 2 boats to raft. I am not in favor of designated rafting areas. Right now, with the exception of channels, bridges, and a few obvious places, the whole lake is a designated rafting area.

The bottom line is respect and courtesy. How do we get that accomplished?

PROPELLER · 02-09-2005, 12:46 PM

Yes, you are correct about the NRZ'S still being crowded such as Braun Bay & the West Alton Sand Bar. Those places will always be crowded because they are shallow & sandy. However, in other areas where boaters raft, I think these areas would thin out some if boaters had more options.

You have also hit on another theme I believe & that is that banning rafting from the entire lake will not solve any of the problems that rafting ban supporters are complaining about. Like noise, partying, littering etc. (which I believe is very over exaggerated based on my rafting experience) And as you said, it will not eliminate boaters from anchoring. Boaters will still anchor in front of peoples property only they will be ancored separately, not tied together.

ApS · 02-09-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodore

Rafting is fine as long as it's Not In My Back Yard or waterfront. We have heard that before. Restricted rafting will not reduce boat and anchoring congestion in those areas. >>SNIP<<

It's not NIMBY.

It's in our front yard.

Mee-n-Mac · 02-09-2005, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

M-n-M -- Interesting you mention West Alton sand bar. We keep our boat at West Alton Marina, and while it can be very crowded on the Sand bar, east or south side of channel, and can be just as crowded on the other side, the one thing I have not seen in the two years we have had our boat at WAM are rafters blocking the channel. Are a few loud???? are a few inconsiderate by nearly running over your anchor line to get to "their" spot???? Do I enjoy being in the middle of all that???? That's a yes, yes, and a no. So, like you, I go elsewhere (the beauty of a four step ladder - swim up, climb in, life is good) and it doesn't have to be shallow.

I should have been more specific when I said "clogging" I guess. To be fair I don't recall a time where I've seen a boat in the channel but I have seen them, on a couple of occasions, right next to the channel markers with anchor lines trailing into the channel. I wouldn't have pushed the limit quite so far myself.

PROPELLER · 02-10-2005, 01:09 PM

Konachick, how would you limit the number of boats allowed on the lake? Would you close public & private (pay) launches? Would you eliminate already existing slips at the various marinas? Would you somehow take away some property owners privilege of having a boat on the lake? I'm not sure how this would all work.

PROPELLER · 02-10-2005, 01:19 PM

Rafting friendly means rafting would be allowed all over the lake, no restricted areas so it would not be concentrated in a few areas. However, a restriction of say 5 boats would be allowed. As far as how this will help with the problems that some have complained about, it will spread boaters who raft around so there is not so much congestion in a few areas. As far as other problems like noise, litter etc. First, I do not believe these problems exist especially to the extent that some claim. I believe its very over exaggerated because they don't like rafting & are looking for any excuse to ban or at least control it. Secondly, if there are people who are noisy, litter or commit any of the other things rafting ban supporters claim, banning rafting will not stop it. Boaters anchored separately will commit these same offences. Thats another reason why I think the supporters of the ban just don't like rafting, they are justing using these alleged problems to support their cause.

Fargo · 02-11-2005, 03:48 PM

Do you remember in the early 70's when you could only get gas for your car on even or odd days depending what your registration number was? I think the day will come when you will only be able to use your boat on even or odd days depending on the registration number. We do some casual boating in Florida, depending on the day, month and time of day can determine how fast you can drive, anchor and how large your wake can be. Gets confusing real fast. You need a calendar on board. Could happen on Winni. Hope not.

Rattlesnake Gal · 02-11-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargo

I think the day will come when you will only be able to use your boat on even or odd days depending on the registration number. We do some casual boating in Florida, depending on the day, month and time of day can determine how fast you can drive, anchor and how large your wake can be. Gets confusing real fast. You need a calendar on board. Could happen on Winni. Hope not.

I hope us island folk would be exempt!

View Poll Results: Are you for or against rafting?
Should be allowed anywhere	378	36.49%
Should NOT be allowed anywhere	116	11.20%
Only in designated areas	542	52.32%
Voters: 1036. You may not vote on this poll

02-08-2005, 11:47 PM	#3
upthesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 5,602 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 2,466 Thanked 1,983 Times in 1,083 Posts	M-n-M -- Interesting you mention West Alton sand bar. We keep our boat at West Alton Marina, and while it can be very crowded on the Sand bar, east or south side of channel, and can be just as crowded on the other side, the one thing I have not seen in the two years we have had our boat at WAM are rafters blocking the channel. Are a few loud???? are a few inconsiderate by nearly running over your anchor line to get to "their" spot???? Do I enjoy being in the middle of all that???? That's a yes, yes, and a no. So, like you, I go elsewhere (the beauty of a four step ladder - swim up, climb in, life is good) and it doesn't have to be shallow. Silver Duck --- We have called the type mentality you refer to as elementary school mentality...one kid is bad so let's all put our heads down. It has become a management style with companies as well, so it's no wonder that it is making its way into government thinking. Education, Education, Courtesy, and Enforcement!!! sure could go a long way towards happier boating and enjoyment of the lake. __________________ I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!

02-09-2005, 10:38 AM	#4
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rafting Excellent posts by Silver Duck & Upthesaukee. However, as I mentioned before, the problem is that in theory the entire lake could become no rafting (except big open bays & the broads) under current law. Maybe boaters that believe this is wrong should try to get together & find our own sponsors to write a bill that will repeal the current law that allows someone to petition for a NRZ & even take back current NRZ'S. Personally, I would even be willing to support a limit on how many boats can raft (say 5 or 6) if the current NRZ'S are repealed & the power of the safety commissioner to designate new NRZ'S by petition is eliminated. Something is better than nothing & it spreads the rafting around more evenly. As they say, a good compromise is when no one is entirely happy.

02-09-2005, 12:12 PM	#5
Commodore Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 45 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Rafting, NIMBY Rafting is fine as long as it's Not In My Back Yard or waterfront. We have heard that before. Restricted rafting will not reduce boat and anchoring congestion in those areas. I like to anchor and I also enjoy rafting up with friends. The NRZs (No Rafting Zones) are still crowded anchorages with or without rafts. Boaters are still allowed to raft no more than 2 boats in NRZs and some ignore or are unaware of those rules. My attention is drawn to loud illegal rafting in NRZs. Most always one or more *offshore* style boats are involved with the raft. That's the obnoxious group with the loudest music and people. Again it is a small percent of the offshore boats that become highly visible and that adds to the perceived bad reputation of such boats on the lake . As a boater I wish that the MP would enforce the no rafting rules more diligently. They should also make the specific anchoring and rafting rules for those NRZs more available to the boating public. How far can you anchor from the shore and other boats and rafts? The rules are different for different areas of Winnipesaukee. The Poll questions are slightly confusing. I am in favor of rafting. I can live with the current situation with a few specified NRZs that allow 2 boats to raft. I am not in favor of designated rafting areas. Right now, with the exception of channels, bridges, and a few obvious places, the whole lake is a designated rafting area. The bottom line is respect and courtesy. How do we get that accomplished? __________________ The Commodore

02-09-2005, 12:46 PM	#6
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Commodore Yes, you are correct about the NRZ'S still being crowded such as Braun Bay & the West Alton Sand Bar. Those places will always be crowded because they are shallow & sandy. However, in other areas where boaters raft, I think these areas would thin out some if boaters had more options. You have also hit on another theme I believe & that is that banning rafting from the entire lake will not solve any of the problems that rafting ban supporters are complaining about. Like noise, partying, littering etc. (which I believe is very over exaggerated based on my rafting experience) And as you said, it will not eliminate boaters from anchoring. Boaters will still anchor in front of peoples property only they will be ancored separately, not tied together.

02-08-2005, 03:44 PM	#1
KTO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 391 Thanks: 30 Thanked 117 Times in 26 Posts	Propeller, you bring up a great point. If many areas were accesible to rafters, it may be less crowded. I just have a bit of an irrelavent thought though, that maybe people just like the location (is it enclosed, is there a sandbar or beach?) and would stick to their original spots. I suppose overcrowdedness could be a small problem too. The cove next to Farrar point is commonly filled with 20-60 boats on a regular summer day. And of course there are many others, like Blackey Cove, that just get taken over. I could see the toughness in the decisions!

02-08-2005, 08:47 PM	#2
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I have two thoughts to contribute to this discussion. The first is that I didn't like it the first time I encountered a teacher who was so dog lazy that he punished an entire class rather than be bothered to find and punish the specific guilty parties, and I like it even less now that I'm old enough to recognize it for the injustice it is! There are already laws against public drunkenness, disturbing the peace, littering, public lewdness, and tresspass. The MP or even local town police need to put the effort into catching and penalizing the guilty parties. Punishing the entire boating community for the misconduct of a few members is the lazy way out and is utterly unacceptable! The excuse that offenders will see an MP boat coming and clean up their act is also unacceptable; the concept of un-marked police cars has been around for a very long time and would work just as well on the lake as it does on land! My second thought is that people who build or buy lakefront homes in areas that are heavily used as anchorages should have used due diligence and been aware of that use before building or buying! If they didn't, and don't like boats anchored or rafted in front of their property, tough luck! If they were aware, and figured to roust the boaters once they moved in, even tougher luck! End of Rant! Silver Duck

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02-10-2005, 01:09 PM	#9
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Limiting boats? Konachick, how would you limit the number of boats allowed on the lake? Would you close public & private (pay) launches? Would you eliminate already existing slips at the various marinas? Would you somehow take away some property owners privilege of having a boat on the lake? I'm not sure how this would all work.

02-10-2005, 01:19 PM	#10
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mee n Mac Rafting friendly means rafting would be allowed all over the lake, no restricted areas so it would not be concentrated in a few areas. However, a restriction of say 5 boats would be allowed. As far as how this will help with the problems that some have complained about, it will spread boaters who raft around so there is not so much congestion in a few areas. As far as other problems like noise, litter etc. First, I do not believe these problems exist especially to the extent that some claim. I believe its very over exaggerated because they don't like rafting & are looking for any excuse to ban or at least control it. Secondly, if there are people who are noisy, litter or commit any of the other things rafting ban supporters claim, banning rafting will not stop it. Boaters anchored separately will commit these same offences. Thats another reason why I think the supporters of the ban just don't like rafting, they are justing using these alleged problems to support their cause.

02-11-2005, 03:48 PM	#11
Fargo Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lake Winni Posts: 215 Thanks: 36 Thanked 130 Times in 38 Posts	Boat traffic Do you remember in the early 70's when you could only get gas for your car on even or odd days depending what your registration number was? I think the day will come when you will only be able to use your boat on even or odd days depending on the registration number. We do some casual boating in Florida, depending on the day, month and time of day can determine how fast you can drive, anchor and how large your wake can be. Gets confusing real fast. You need a calendar on board. Could happen on Winni. Hope not.