Teen hurt in two boat accident on Winni 7-22-10

[LIforrelaxin]

Out of curiosity what was the weather like up there last night?

This is unfortunate, I am glad to hear that they boy was released from the hospital.

Accidents unfortunately do happen, luckily both operators took some avassive action to make sure it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Out of curiosity what was the weather like up there last night?

This is unfortunate, I am glad to hear that they boy was released from the hospital.

Accidents unfortunately do happen, luckily both operators took some avassive action to make sure it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

Severe clear, it was a beautiful night. I was near there around 8:30, not many boats around. I suspect a little bit of "big lake" collision avoidance theory may have played a part here.

[Lakepilot]

I have thousands of hours flying airplanes and the toughest situations spotting other traffic is when it's coming right at you. What normally catches your attention is later movement i.e. something coming across your vision from the side. Shen the airplane (or boat) is coming right at you there isn't lateral movement. The object just gets bigger.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

I have thousands of hours flying airplanes and the toughest situations spotting other traffic is when it's coming right at you.

And planes like boats I bet can be tough to pick out on a clear night with a star filled sky as a backdrop. The one thing visually planes do have is blinking lights which boats do not have.

Guess you don't want to play chicken at night with a UFO huh?

[Kracken]

I am glad to hear the injuries were minor. When looking at the amount of boating hours per year on the lake accidents are going to occur. Any activity has some adherent risks. It doesn’t matter if one is driving a car, playing golf or going for a hike there are dangers to any activity. The best we can do is to try and limit ones exposure. The best way to do this is through education and employing best practices. Even by doing everything right, accidents are going to happen.

My concern here is that there might be a knee-jerk reaction by some to legislate changes designed to prevent accidents like this from happening again. No amount of laws will ever prevent accidents from happening. I have heard rumblings over the past few years about limits on size and horsepower on the lake and once again today on the Union Leader. This should concern us all. Taking reasonable risks are part of life. If you drove to work today, you took a calculated risk. If you took a shower this morning, you put yourself at risk…you get the idea.

Short of making the entire lake boat free, there is no way to make the lake safe from boating accidents.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Short of making the entire lake boat free, there is no way to make the lake safe from boating accidents.

Even when the lake is boat free, we will have tragic accidents, such as drowning and falling in the lake.

The lake by its very nature is risky and dangerous.

[codeman671]

Just another example of a night time accident on the lake. Boating at night can be difficult, especially when alcohol is involved although that does not seem to be the case with this one.

The bulk of all severe accidents on the lake have been at night- Blizzard, Littlefield, kayak hit by Sally's Gut, other island crashes, etc. It seems to me that laws should be kept more stringent on night time boating then daytime. I am not trying to spin this into a SL debate because honestly these days I could care less either way.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Just another example of a night time accident on the lake. Boating at night can be difficult,

Codeman, you have hit the nail squarely on the head, boating at night is difficult. As many hours as I have logged, rarely go out at night and when I do I try my best to stay away from everyone. I am always more vigilant in my look out techniques and everything. I think quite often people don't realize all the difficulties of navigating at night, and don't know how to kick in a extra level of situational awareness.

I am not implying that either capt in this case was at all negligent... just say that night time boating requires a entire different level of awareness.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Codeman, you have hit the nail squarely on the head, boating at night is difficult. As many hours as I have logged, rarely go out at night and when I do I try my best to stay away from everyone. I am always more vigilant in my look out techniques and everything. I think quite often people don't realize all the difficulties of navigating at night, and don't know how to kick in a extra level of situational awareness.

I am not implying that either capt in this case was at all negligent... just say that night time boating requires a entire different level of awareness.

Quoted for truth ! The "problem" with boating at night is that there's very little visual cues as to how far away a boat is. During the daytime a glance is sufficient to know if another boat is danger close and to assess it's general heading. At night all you have are points of light that must be observed for a period of time to get the above. I'm curious, it was written that both parties didn't see the other's lights until the "last second". That's a bit different from seeing them and not realizing they were too close. While I agree it may be harder to pick out a boat heading directly towards (or worse, directly away from) you, I've found the red/green sidelights standout pretty well from the background of cabin and house and other lights. Also both boats "swerved to the left" ??? Given the damage shown on WMUR's vid, I'll take that to mean each turned to port which is a bit odd (depending on the circumstances of course). I wonder just where btw Sandy and L Bear Is this happened ? That's an open stretch of water w/o obstructions.

ps - I was told in no uncertain terms that the Littlefield "accident" (all by itself) was proof positive that a 25 mph speed limit was needed. I wondered then what would happen when we had one at less than that speed. So ... time for a 15 mph limit ? Or shall "we" start determining the root causes and address them instead ?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

........ Or shall "we" start determining the root causes and address them instead ?

Nah, too hard, much easier to knee jerk and legislate! Almost cocktail time!!

[upthesaukee]

Not all that familiar with the area between Little Bear and Sandy, but I have had situations in Alton Bay where I am coming in the bay at night,and has someone going out the bay. I try to come into the bay down my right side (west side) and go out the east side.

It was just about dusk a few weeks ago, and between Little Mark and Echo point, just about below the rte 11 scenic view, I spotted a boat coming out of the bay and heading right for me. I did alter my course to the right and shortly afterward, so did the other boat. We passed well clear of one another, and as I looked back at it, it appeared to be heading all the way out the bay.

It was definitely difficult to see, but I did notice his bow lights and then noticed his white light. It may not have been an issue if it had been closer to the east side of the bay, but then again, it is everyone's lake and we need to watch carefully, and share.

Essentially, keep your eyes moving at all times, especially at night, and be the very defensive driver.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Not all that familiar with the area between Little Bear and Sandy, but I have had situations in Alton Bay where I am coming in the bay at night,and has someone going out the bay. I try to come into the bay down my right side (west side) and go out the east side.

It was just about dusk a few weeks ago, and between Little Mark and Echo point, just about below the rte 11 scenic view, I spotted a boat coming out of the bay and heading right for me. I did alter my course to the right and shortly afterward, so did the other boat. We passed well clear of one another, and as I looked back at it, it appeared to be heading all the way out the bay.

It was definitely difficult to see, but I did notice his bow lights and then noticed his white light. It may not have been an issue if it had been closer to the east side of the bay, but then again, it is everyone's lake and we need to watch carefully, and share.

Essentially, keep your eyes moving at all times, especially at night, and be the very defensive driver.

Thanks for not being one of those channel/bay/passage hogs that has to go the shortest straight line distance btw "here" and "there" leaving no room for others. If more people just segregated themselves into inbound and outbound lanes there would be less anxiety all around. (Dang, where are my meds )

Anyway we're back to back to that old topic of whether (and how) the lighting regs could be changed to help. I've already bored people with the on-ON-on-ON all around (white) light ; could, should something be done with the sidelights ?


Funny to think that in prolly 20 years this will all be a moot point. GPS and RFID type transponders will alert anyone to other boats in their vicinity. Heck if we weren't such a litigious society I'd even engineer, make and sell the system myself.

[Jonas Pilot]

Maybe we need better lights on our boats for boating at night?

[SeaBass1]

I have boated on large lakes, oceans and inter coastals. Lake winnipesaukee has very very few seasoned captains that have a clue how to navigate at all. It is especially true with the guys with the over sized boats on this lake 30+ feet cabin cruisers. We should all be thankful that most of these people just stay on their docks and very few venture out at night.

Its great that nobody got seriously hurt in that minor collision. Accidents happen everywhere in life.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by SeaBass1

I have boated on large lakes, oceans and inter coastals. Lake winnipesaukee has very very few seasoned captains that have a clue how to navigate at all. It is especially true with the guys with the over sized boats on this lake 30+ feet cabin cruisers. We should all be thankful that most of these people just stay on their docks and very few venture out at night.

Its great that nobody got seriously hurt in that minor collision. Accidents happen everywhere in life.

Usually people post more than once before they succeed in offending 100s of forum participants with a single generalization. I wish we could welcome you under more favorable circumstances.

[Dave R]

My boat came with a single bow light. I replaced it with lights mounted on either side. I think it makes it far easier to spot head on.

[Mee-n-Mac]

A few weeks ago I was driving home late at night and came up behind a motorcycle. It really stuck out. What he had done was illuminate the engine and undercarriage with one of those neon-ish glowing lights (ala the Fast 'n' Furious crowd). Normally I think these look dumb but the patch of pavement illuminated by the lights really aided in it's visibility. So take that idea to the water and shine a "dim" light down the hull sides and onto the water (color appropriate to the side). Don't have it blind anyone. No doubt illegal per the regs but ...

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

A few weeks ago I was driving home late at night and came up behind a motorcycle. It really stuck out. What he had done was illuminate the engine and undercarriage with one of those neon-ish glowing lights (ala the Fast 'n' Furious crowd). Normally I think these look dumb but the patch of pavement illuminated by the lights really aided in it's visibility. So take that idea to the water and shine a "dim" light down the hull sides and onto the water (color appropriate to the side). Don't have it blind anyone. No doubt illegal per the regs but ...

I've seen cruisers with underwater stern lights. They do stand out and it looks pretty cool. Maybe we should regulate the underwater lights?

[OCDACTIVE]

what you are referring to are LED lights. They were actually started in fishing boats to attract fish towards the boat. They make it especially easy when catching bait fish in a net.

They have expanded over the past 5 years to be included on most any type of boat. People seem to like them on cruisers when sitting on the back, and I have even seen them as an option of some very top end performance boats. There was even an episode on ship shape tv on installing them.

I do not believe they are "regulated"....... But give it time...

[Winnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

A few weeks ago I was driving home late at night and came up behind a motorcycle. It really stuck out. What he had done was illuminate the engine and undercarriage with one of those neon-ish glowing lights (ala the Fast 'n' Furious crowd). Normally I think these look dumb but the patch of pavement illuminated by the lights really aided in it's visibility. So take that idea to the water and shine a "dim" light down the hull sides and onto the water (color appropriate to the side). Don't have it blind anyone. No doubt illegal per the regs but ...

I've read in a number of books that the color WHITE, e.g., white fairing and white helmet is the easiest for the drivers to spot, register as a motorcycle, and accurately judge the speed and closing distance of.

I guess the boating equivalent would be two lights mounted where docking lights would be, but pointed down and back, with the V of the boat. Who knows...somebody try it. It's worth a shot.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Usually people post more than once before they succeed in offending 100s of forum participants with a single generalization. I wish we could welcome you under more favorable circumstances.

If you take away the SEAB and the 1, what do you have left.

Exactly....

[Justenuff]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Quoted for truth ! The "problem" with boating at night is that there's very little visual cues as to how far away a boat is. During the daytime a glance is sufficient to know if another boat is danger close and to assess it's general heading. At night all you have are points of light that must be observed for a period of time to get the above. I'm curious, it was written that both parties didn't see the other's lights until the "last second". That's a bit different from seeing them and not realizing they were too close. While I agree it may be harder to pick out a boat heading directly towards (or worse, directly away from) you, I've found the red/green sidelights standout pretty well from the background of cabin and house and other lights. Also both boats "swerved to the left" ??? Given the damage shown on WMUR's vid, I'll take that to mean each turned to port which is a bit odd (depending on the circumstances of course). I wonder just where btw Sandy and L Bear Is this happened ? That's an open stretch of water w/o obstructions.

ps - I was told in no uncertain terms that the Littlefield "accident" (all by itself) was proof positive that a 25 mph speed limit was needed. I wondered then what would happen when we had one at less than that speed. So ... time for a 15 mph limit ? Or shall "we" start determining the root causes and address them instead ?

I know it's not exact, but just remember that when you head on collide with another boat, car or whatever, it's equivalent to your speed plus the speed of the other vehicle, so in this case 40 - 50 mph. Not a lot of reaction time. Both operators seemed to do a good job of avoiding serious injury.

[Excalibur]

When boating this past Saturday night, heading into the Meridith town docks, it was very difficult to see a lonely slow moving white stern light on a boat. I found the best approach was to keep to the far right of the bay where the least amount of light pollution impaired my vision to pick out stern lights. Then at the end of the bay turn left and go in to the no wake zone.

There was one condo complex with big spot lights shinning facing out into the bay that totally obscured that area. Trying to find a small white stern light in that light pollution would be near impossible. I guess the condo complex wanted to make sure no one ended up on there beach.

I believe that with all the development on the lake and so many white lights out there, its sometimes hard to tell if its a boat or a house light. Maybe its time to look at the law for the congested inner waters and change the stern light to a strobe. Its time for the law to adjust for the 21st century. Aircraft use strobes and maybe its time for boats on congested inland waterways to do so also.

[This'nThat]

Interesting that both boat operators were over 50. As everyone knows, night vision deteriorates rapidly and significantly for people over 45; I wonder how much that was a factor in this incident?

But, another thing bothers me too -- with 8 people aboard, you would think that one of them would have seen the other boat coming, and commented on it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I always have someone else looking out too when I'm boating, especially at night. I'm just surprised 8 pairs of eyes missed the oncoming boat.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Interesting that both boat operators were over 50. As everyone knows, night vision deteriorates rapidly and significantly for people over 45; I wonder how much that was a factor in this incident?

But, another thing bothers me too -- with 8 people aboard, you would think that one of them would have seen the other boat coming, and commented on it? I don't know about the rest of you, but I always have someone else looking out too when I'm boating, especially at night. I'm just surprised 8 pairs of eyes missed the oncoming boat.

You think someone would have seen something wouldn't you ? That's what bothers me about this case, both captains claim they didn't see the other guy until the last second (not that they misjudged the distance). I suppose both could have been distracted, perhaps by their passengers (akin to talking on the cellphone). Could be a bit of CYA by both parties ? In a head on (or nearly) situation there's every advantage to see the other boat. The R/G sidelights should* be visible and more easily distinguished from the background than the white all-around. People tend to look where they're going (straight ahead). Age can certainly reduce the amount of light getting to your retina(s) but if you can see colors then there's plenty of light intensity. I still make out the colors of lights at distance on the lake and I'm over 50. So what can, could be done ? In time technology will fix this problem but in the meanwhile I'm not sure what else to do. More stringent requirements on those going out at night ?


*I have noted that on some boats, where the sidelights are in a combo unit on the bow, that the R and G can "merge" into a whitish/yellowish (like an old dim auto headlight) point of light when viewed head on. Maybe this occured and the now "white" light was lost in the background ? Maybe sidelights should really be on the sides ?

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

You think someone would have seen something wouldn't you ? That's what bothers me about this case, both captains claim they didn't see the other guy until the last second (not that they misjudged the distance).

One of them saw something. From the report.

"At the same time there was a 20-ft. 2006 Sea Hunt center-console fishing boat (Vessel B) operating in the same sector of the ICW and going west with four people aboard. The operator (Sea Hunt Passenger No.1) stated that when he first saw the oncoming boat, he discerned it at about 10º on his port bow. He immediately made a turn to starboard (right) and this put him on a collision course with the Bayliner, which made an incorrect turn to the left. In his second interview with the investigating officer he assessed his turn to the right as a “half turn” of the steering wheel."

and a non-involved witness

"The only non-passenger witness was the above-mentioned mullet fisherman aboard his own vessel. He was heading west close to the Sea Hunt, at about the same speed, which he estimated at between 20 and 22 mph. He saw the oncoming boat and witnessed the collision, immediately stopping to help the survivors. Every person making a statement agreed that both vessels had their navigation lights ON.
"

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

One of them saw something. From the report.

I was referring to the collision that happened on Winni. I thought T'n'T was also, though I'm not so sure now. Rereading the WMUR report it appears there were a total of 11 people in both boats on Winni. In the case of the ICW collision it appears the capt of the CC saw the other guy sifficiently ahead of time and took appropriate action but the other moron turned to port. APS likes to talk about "guided missiles" ... in this case it's a good analogy.

EDIT: not sure if this post went through on try #1.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I was referring to the collision that happened on Winni. I thought T'n'T was also, though I'm not so sure now. Rereading the WMUR report it appears there were a total of 11 people in both boats on Winni. In the case of the ICW collision it appears the capt of the CC saw the other guy sifficiently ahead of time and took appropriate action but the other moron turned to port. APS likes to talk about "guided missiles" ... in this case it's a good analogy.

EDIT: not sure if this post went through on try #1.

Both accidents took place at minor speed, so very slow missiles. But both accidents took place because of pilot error. One has been documented very, very well, the Winni accident not so well, so far.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...I suppose both could have been distracted, perhaps by their passengers (akin to talking on the cellphone). Could be a bit of CYA by both parties ? In a head on (or nearly) situation there's every advantage to see the other boat. The R/G sidelights should* be visible and more easily distinguished from the background than the white all-around. People tend to look where they're going (straight ahead)..."

The newest regulation affecting the Coast Guard's use of cellphones:

"...While cellphones and texting devices have become ubiquitous...the internal Coast Guard policy issued in July prohibits their use on Coast Guard boats without the permission of the coxswain...The policy also strictly prohibits the use of these devices by the coxswain, or the operator, of a Coast Guard boat..."
http://www.uscgnews.com/go/doc/786/857359/

Bogus Union Leader comment:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...none of the Union Leader posts came from me, fatlazyless...you should take internet comments coming from anonymous originators with a built-in filter of skepticism.

Somebody copied my "handle" from last year's Citizen, and posted an incorrect statement at The Union Leader.

It was only the sentiment that was similar to something I might have written but the bogus comment was used for a "sock puppet" response by the only apparent authority on New Hampshire boating safety.

[ApS]

"Accident"..."event"..."incident"..."severe accident"..."collision"... Which is the operative term here? To the injured Wolfeboro victim this would be "severe". (And "a collision").

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...The bulk of all severe accidents on the lake have been at night..."

None could be blamed on the absence of neon lights.

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

"...I have thousands of hours flying airplanes and the toughest situations spotting other traffic is when it's coming right at you..."

1) This Union Leader report references at least one "boat" error and omits important "boating" details.

2) Were these two boats following the same GPS waypoints—but in opposite directions?