Kayak Safety Flags

[topwater]

I totally agree and have always agreed, Kayakers-canoeist-and rowboats should ALL have to pay to use lakes in this state. I also agree that ALL kayakers should have to have a ORANGE FLAG to be more obvious to all, and to make things SAFER FOR ALL. Its not to penalize them, its a SAFTEY ISSUE.
Someone on here must know WHO? and HOW? Do we start a petition? Do we contact our State Rep? What is the proper procedure to get a BILL started to get the state to vote on? We have to start somewhere!
Someone on here must know. Lets all stop talking about it, and start doing something about it!

[ITD]

All I can say is the politicians, big government jerks have really won when citizens start cheering and demanding new taxes on other citizens.

[chipj29]

I boat a lot on the Merrimack River. There are dozens of kayaks/canoes out there everytime I am out. They generally hug the shore, but they do go out into the middle parts of the river at times. You have to be on the constant lookout for them up ahead.

When going up or down river, one tends to get "tunnel vision". You look around you, but don't have to worry about anything coming up behind you or from the side. So you really watch straight ahead. Once in a while, you get a bit of a scare when you notice that kayak that just up ahead is not so close to shore.

When boating in late afternoon, the sun goes down upriver. That means when heading upriver, the sun is right in your eyes, and the glare off the water is very strong. It is very hard to see anything, let alone a kayak of any color. You have to be real careful.

My point is that sometimes it is extremely difficult to see kayaks (or other low to the water boats) at any time of day. Any increased visibility (ie: safety flag or shiny paddle) is a bonus. I am not suggesting that a law should be passed that requires kayaks to have a safety flag. I am however suggesting that it is a VERY good idea in the name of safety and personal responsibility.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by topwater

I also agree that ALL kayakers should have to have a ORANGE FLAG to be more obvious to all, and to make things SAFER FOR ALL. Its not to penalize them, its a SAFETY ISSUE.

There are many kayakers that LOVE Nature and who gain great pleasure Getting Close to it. ... ie. sneaking up on it. With big ORANGE flags flying, not only will the boaters SEE them...but Nature will SEE them as well... ie. the Loons, Moose, Bears, and even the totally hated and maligned Geese and Ducks...

SO: The Unintended Consequences of the big orange flag will be that NATURE will be long gone by the time you paddle your butt over to where they WERE.

Another thought: I wonder if a Bull Moose would be inclined to CHARGE at the unarmed kayaker flying a fluttering Orange flag.... like a Bull charging the Red Cape. NB

[Woodsy]

I advocated flags on kayaks along time ago..... but after giving it some thought.... I dont think a law mandating a flag is necessary. It does not help with your rollover recovery in a kayak....

We need to take a cue from the hunters & sportsmen and mandate brightly colored (safety orange or yellow) lifevests to be worn at all times.... this increases thier visibilty as well as thier safety... more people drown in canoe & kayak accidents than anything else...

Canoes, Kayaks & small sailboats should also be required to pay a $10 annual access fee (sticker affixed to bow) for the privilege of using our lakes & rivers... We all have to share the burdens of safety and law enforcement...

Woodsy

[topwater]

Another thought: I wonder if a Bull Moose would be inclined to CHARGE at the unarmed kayaker flying a fluttering Orange flag.... like a Bull charging the Red Cape. NB

I blew coffee out of my nose when I read such a foolish comment! I hope that was a shot of humor, because if it wasn't, you DON'T know much about nature. So please don't use that nature agrument... Moose charging a orange flag, LMAO. just plain foolish what some people will say. Yes, I have been hunting for 40 years, seen lots of moose, and after wearing my orange vest, I am still around to tell my woes.

[SIKSUKR]

Interesting that SP started this thread as I was on Winni Friday and my GF and I were commenting on how hard it was to spot 2 kayaks that were in the middle of the Broads. We were on my PWC and only traveling at 20 mph. I constantly scan for markers and other craft and could barely make the 2 out at 500 ft. There was not a huge swell but both boats would constantly go in and out of view.

[Seaplane Pilot]

The suggestion of creating a new "law" was slightly tongue in cheek. However, it seems to parallel the methods by which the anti-powerboat (speed, noise, graphics, horsepower, wake, etc.) crowd wants to take control over the lake. Make a new law in hopes some of us will disappear. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to stay (with my powerboat).

However, I was dead serious about the use of the flag itself and the fact that kayakers should take much more care in making themselves visible to other boaters. Anyone that disagrees with the need for this type of visible flag on small kayaks and other craft needs to have their real agenda exposed.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

However, I was dead serious about the use of the flag itself and the fact that kayakers should take much more care in making themselves visible to other boaters. Anyone that disagrees with the need for this type of visible flag on small kayaks and other craft needs to have their real agenda exposed.

Agenda? Well I am a long time power boater and kayaker, safely enjoy each and have lots of experience at each. So that is my real agenda if you will.

As I noted in an earlier post my opinion is that flags are much less effective than safety color paddle blades. However I am not an advocate of establishing a new flag and paddle color police force nor am I an advocate of motor cycle helmets being mandatory even though I wear one.

The flag idea would actually decrease many paddlers ability to self rescue a kayak. Many flat water kayakers, my wife and I included, come form a whitewater kayaking background and have effective and reliable kayak rolls. A flatwater touring kayak rolls slower than a WW kayak and with somewhat more effort. A flag on a mast would make a combat roll very difficult or maybe even impossible.

[robmac]

I am some what confused. When an option comes up that would help everyone from a safety standpoint paddlers find it a bad suggestion? I would think all boaters would want to work to make the waterways as safe as we can for all that enjoy them. I would think and hope all boaters were wanting and looking for the same thing, a safe and friendly place to coexist on all of our waterways. Perhaps I am wishing but I would think that safety is everyones main concern. Just a thought IMHO.

[OCDACTIVE]

Great post Rob. I agree fully. We should support actions like this that makes sense. Perhaps a provision that if you are 150 feet from shore then you need the flag. I don't think it is necessary if you are going up a stream that is only 4 feet wide off of a bay.

I also think a $25 fee, useage sticker will go a long way to help raise funds for the navigation fund (provided they do not pilage it again!) It has always been said that paddlers have every right to the lake and voice towards legislation as power boaters, well then they shouldn't have an issue with having to also pay to use it. (I am also a kayaker and a powerboater, just seems fair)

[Winnipesaukee]

"Unfunded mandate", my two favorite words to complain about.

And please no more taxes. Boaters should only be "taxed" for the "wear and tear" they cause to the lake. I don't think kayaks need to pay a tax to support the Milfoil Eradication Fight.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

"Unfunded mandate", my two favorite words to complain about.

And please no more taxes. Boaters should only be "taxed" for the "wear and tear" they cause to the lake. I don't think kayaks need to pay a tax to support the Milfoil Eradication Fight.

Sorry, I disagree. Anyone who uses the lake has an equal voice and equal rights to use the lake. They also are under the protection of the dept. of safety. By paying a useage fee it only seems fair. It takes just as much energy, time, and resources to save a kayaker in the middle of the lake as it does a powerboater. One could argue that the powerboater may even be more prepared due to the amount of safety gear required to be on board.

[fatlazyless]

Carrying a whistle attached to the zipper pull on the pfd is something I always like to have on a kayak. A whistle is small, easy to carry, and could be pretty helpfull for certain situations. Plus, whistles seem to be heard real good out across the water.

What's the better safety item for kayaking Lake Winnipesaukee, a loud whistle or a cell phone?

Toot....toot....toot.....thought I'd give the whistle a tout here....as long as people are discussing kayaking safety.......toot....toot!


Believe that Florida boating law requires kayaks in Florida to carry a sound making device such as a whistle, as I recall. Plus, a kayaker always has the option of carrying one of those small compressed air horns which are extremely loud.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Sorry, I disagree. Anyone who uses the lake has an equal voice and equal rights to use the lake. They also are under the protection of the dept. of safety. By paying a useage fee it only seems fair. It takes just as much energy, time, and resources to save a kayaker in the middle of the lake as it does a powerboater. One could argue that the powerboater may even be more prepared due to the amount of safety gear required to be on board.

Lower impact uses of the lake need to be encouraged. Quadruple the number of kayaks on the lake and the difference would be hardly perceptable. Quadruple the number of power boats and the difference would be insane (see acres per second utilized). My power boat is used probably 20 hours per season. The 3 kayaks and one canoe are used probably 5 hours between the four of them. And when is the last time a kayak crashed into an island at some ungodly hour of the early morning (and the maximum damage most likely would be a small scratch to the kayak)? And when was the last complaint against one kayak not giving into the right of way of the other kayak?
Yes we know occasionally a kayak blown away from a beach in the wind could be responsible for a massive search and rescue but I suspect wayward kayaks are responsible for a tiny fraction of the the MP's time and efforts.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Lower impact uses of the lake need to be encouraged. Quadruple the number of kayaks on the lake and the difference would be hardly perceptable. Quadruple the number of power boats and the difference would be insane (see acres per second utilized). My power boat is used probably 20 hours per season. The 3 kayaks and one canoe are used probably 5 hours between the four of them. And when is the last time a kayak crashed into an island at some ungodly hour of the early morning (and the maximum damage most likely would be a small scratch to the kayak)? And when was the last complaint against one kayak not giving into the right of way of the other kayak?
Yes we know occasionally a kayak blown away from a beach in the wind could be responsible for a massive search and rescue but I suspect wayward kayaks are responsible for a tiny fraction of the the MP's time and efforts.

We are not going away - PERIOD.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

We are not going away - PERIOD.

Don't take the bait..... It is just another attempt of misdirection to get the thread off track and potentially shut down.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Lower impact uses of the lake need to be encouraged. Quadruple the number of kayaks on the lake and the difference would be hardly perceptable. Quadruple the number of power boats and the difference would be insane (see acres per second utilized). My power boat is used probably 20 hours per season. The 3 kayaks and one canoe are used probably 5 hours between the four of them. And when is the last time a kayak crashed into an island at some ungodly hour of the early morning (and the maximum damage most likely would be a small scratch to the kayak)? And when was the last complaint against one kayak not giving into the right of way of the other kayak?
Yes we know occasionally a kayak blown away from a beach in the wind could be responsible for a massive search and rescue but I suspect wayward kayaks are responsible for a tiny fraction of the the MP's time and efforts.

Really?

If you hit an island at 29mph at 2:00am, if your kayak capsized in the broads 3:00pm, if you fell into your bowl of Fruit Loops and drowned this morning, what difference does it make what time and how it happened.

A water rescue, ambulance ride, or coroner’s office visit can result from a ride in a 38 foot cruiser or a 12 foot Sea Kayak.

If there were 4 times as many vessels of any kind there would be 4 times as many incidents. Although if there were 4 times as many power boats there would be four times as much revenue to fund the NHMP, milfoil eradication and….oh wait that not true…never mind.

TB,

I have to give credit where credit is due. You have been steadfast and consistent as it pertains to safety and equal rights to share the lake’s resources. While I have most often disagreed with every argument you have made, I have respected the fact that you have been unwavering in your beliefs. However, I am totally confused why on this subject, you are straying away from the principles you have agued for in the past.

[Excalibur]

The safety flag is cool idea, I had one on my bike as a child. With my kayak being the Hobie type where you typically use pedal power, the colorful paddle may not quite work.

But lets take a FLL approach and head down to Wally world or order from amazon.com (my choice) a safety flag for a bike for $10. They rise up about six feet and could be added to the kayak with some bent aluminum and a few bolts, washers and thumb screws.

http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2/...Store_Code=abs

FLL... I attach a whistle to all the kids PFD's and ones used for kayaking,skiing,jet ski, and canoeing. Its a great safety idea for all.

[jrc]

The registration sticker for kayaks idea has been discussed here before. Remember that the registration fees boaters pay goes to several uses, out of every registration:

(a) $7.50 lake restoration and preservation fund
(b) $1 fish and game search and rescue fund
(c) $5 compensation for processing the registration
(d) $5 statewide public boat access fund
(e) $2 tidal or coastal waters, harbor dredging and pier maintenance fund

I believe that kayaks directly benefit from a,b, and d. A small fee for an annual sticker would be fair. Now I know people (like me) usually have a strong negative reaction to any new taxes, but someone needs to pay for these services, I believe a user fee is more equitable than funding from the general fund.

[jrc]

BTW I would do this as an access sticker. You walk into a marina or sporting goods store and buy a sticker and stick it on the boat. No need for titles and fancy stuff. It doesn't prove you own the boat, just that you paid to navigate state waters.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Really?


If there were 4 times as many vessels of any kind there would be 4 times as many incidents.

Statisticly it would actually be worse than that with many more drownings occurring in canoes/kayaks than in powerboats.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Really?



If there were 4 times as many vessels of any kind there would be 4 times as many incidents. Although if there were 4 times as many power boats there would be four times as much revenue to fund the NHMP, milfoil eradication and….

If there were 4 times as many power boats on the lake there would be four times the need for four times the number of MP's on the lake.

Arguing that kayaks might have as much of an impact as powerboats on the lake? Come on...that's just not rational. And BTW I have a 14' powerboat and kayaks too. No one here is advocating a kayak only lake. I do wonder if some of our posts are getting rather histrionic bordering on hysterical. Way too many outbursts like "boaters are not criminals" and "we're not leaving the lake".

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

I do wonder if some of our posts are getting rather histrionic bordering on hysterical. Way too many outbursts like "boaters are not criminals" and "we're not leaving the lake".

Oh the horrors

I was drinking coffee when I first saw the title of this thread.

Heck, I needed a new monitor anyway

If that's all you have to put up with SOTD, consider yourself very lucky

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

If there were 4 times as many power boats on the lake there would be four times the need for four times the number of MP's on the lake.

Arguing that kayaks might have as much of an impact as powerboats on the lake? Come on...that's just not rational. And BTW I have a 14' powerboat and kayaks too. No one here is advocating a kayak only lake. I do wonder if some of our posts are getting rather histrionic bordering on hysterical. Way too many outbursts like "boaters are not criminals" and "we're not leaving the lake".

Sunset,


I enjoy your posts….keep them coming.


My point was simple although admittedly a bit sarcastic.

There is a reason why Canobie Lake, Lake Massabesic and others in this state allow boats but not swimmers. It is easier to remove the contaminants from a power boat than from humans.

Does that mean a bather actually does more damage? I don’t know but the fact is: It’s debatable. The more important fact is it’s not an issue. Lake Winnipesaukee is very clean and the boats, swimmers and kayakers are not damaging the lake. One might say the wakes are causing erosion; well the wind causes a lot more waves than boats do. We can't ban the wind...although some days I would like to.

I just can’t rationalize penalizing one type of vessel or rewarding another type for using more or less of the lake. That is a very slippery slope. I am not anti any type of boat. I enjoy the kayak, the canoe and my favorite toy…the floating chase lounge. I don’t believe any should be banned or limited. I just believe they should ALL be used responsibly.

I am playing in a 100 hole golf tournament tomorrow for charity. That floating chase lounge chair will get a lot of use this weekend.

[robmac]

Perhaps MHO is wrong but I think alot of this has to do with everyone wanting safety. With that said, shouldn't everyone participate in maintaining that with MP getting the needed funds? Who is not in favor for the safest waterways and family enjoyment we can have? I for one wasn't happy with the added cost this year but accept that to insure that we do have safe guards in place they cost money,why shouldn't all boater share that responsibility? Again this is IMHO

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by robmac

Perhaps MHO is wrong but I think alot of this has to do with everyone wanting safety. With that said, shouldn't everyone participate in maintaining that with MP getting the needed funds? Who is not in favor for the safest waterways and family enjoyment we can have? I for one wasn't happy with the added cost this year but accept that to insure that we do have safe guards in place they cost money,why shouldn't all boater share that responsibility? Again this is IMHO

B I N G O

Safety is a relative thing. You just can't support new laws and then go about your business. There are responsibilities, repercussions, and costs. Having common sense adults in charge of this process goes a long ways towards success, as this year's events have shown us.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

If there were 4 times as many power boats on the lake there would be four times the need for four times the number of MP's on the lake.

Arguing that kayaks might have as much of an impact as powerboats on the lake? Come on...that's just not rational. And BTW I have a 14' powerboat and kayaks too. No one here is advocating a kayak only lake. I do wonder if some of our posts are getting rather histrionic bordering on hysterical. Way too many outbursts like "boaters are not criminals" and "we're not leaving the lake".

Outbursts? Au contraire! Just stating our opinions, just as you have the right to do. I'm sure you would prefer that us "sheep" just keep quiet and let these noodlebacks in Concord (that have no clue about boating) continue to fall prey to lobbying groups with agendas against powerboaters. Not going to happen.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Lower impact uses of the lake need to be encouraged.

Now I have only copied a portion of TB post here... To focus on something the statement itself "lower impact uses"... well I agree with this statement, I think it can be defined in many ways.... One example is power boats vs. canoes/kayaks... however I tend to look at it from the aspect of how the things we use on and in the water impact the lake. Two strokes are slowly disappearing from the lake... There is no doubt that a 4 stroke is better for the environment. People also need to think about things like dock structures and how they impact the environment... seasonal docks are less intrusive, using non-pressure treated lumber is even further reduces the intrusiveness. Now I am not trying to point fingers or give anyone a hard time hear... however preserving the lake is important... there are many ways to do it....

Anyways I knowI am guilty of so I will stop now

[Kracken]

Power Boating has a lower impact on the lake than swimming.


I am sorry I can’t help myself today…..

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Power Boating has a lower impact on the lake than swimming.


I am sorry I can’t help myself today…..

Don't laugh as you don't know how correct you are! Lake Massabesic which supplies Manchester and some surrounding communities with drinking water allow power boats but absolutely no swimming! You can't even be in the water with waders! Why...because people spread a lot more bacteria than a power boat!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Don't laugh as you don't know how correct you are! Lake Massabesic which supplies Manchester and some surrounding communities with drinking water allow power boats but absolutely no swimming! You can't even be in the water with waders! Why...because people spread a lot more bacteria than a power boat!

This is true of Lake Auburn up in the Lewiston / Auburn area of Maine as well....

[Kracken]

Basically, an internal combustion engine is cleaner than the human body.

It is easier to extract chemical agents from the water than it is to remove biological agents.

Does that mean a powerboat does less damage than a kayak? I am not sure; I guess it depends on how wet the paddler gets in the kayak. Potentially, an “all day” trip in a kayak would be very damaging (compared to power boating). I am talking 8 hours of kayaking….no breaks…just paddling all day…

So the argument of kayaks being less of an impact on the lake might have a few “leaks” in it.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by robmac

I am some what confused. When an option comes up that would help everyone from a safety standpoint paddlers find it a bad suggestion? I would think all boaters would want to work to make the waterways as safe as we can for all that enjoy them. I would think and hope all boaters were wanting and looking for the same thing, a safe and friendly place to coexist on all of our waterways. Perhaps I am wishing but I would think that safety is everyones main concern. Just a thought IMHO.

The question is at least twofold : Is this really a problem that needs a solution, a Govt solution ? ... and are "safety" flags a real answer ?

Frankly I doubt the former. Stingrays experience is one in extreme weather. It's not very often I see kayaks out when it's whitecaps and "Victory at Sea" (a great series though !) conditions. Would we all advocate having to wear PFDs at all times just because sometimes it really makes sense to do so ? In SR's condition it would seem the flags would have made the kayaks more visible though it would depend on the wave depth and flag height. The ones linked to in the OP would seem to be inadequate.

I also wonder about the latter question above. If you can't see the blades, I have to seriously doubt a flag will be any more visible. Or more visible than a brightly colored PFD and/or helmet. Now you could argue that it might not help but it doesn't hurt and that's were most kayakers I've listened to disagree. As said above in this thread having one attached hurts the ability to roll back right. The break-away design in the OP's link seem to try to address this issue but I have to again wonder if that really a workable solution (stays on in wakes and surf, breaks away underwater). But let's say it works, I would still have to ask if this is a big enough issue that "we" want to make kayakers put what I'm sure is a (dorky to them) flag on their boat. Simply saying it's a "safety" issue doesn't cut it, at least for me. Given the boat-boat collisions we've had, where the words "I didn't see him" were used, I could just as well argue that every boat should be glow green or blaze orange in order to enhance visibility. Afterall what could it hurt ... and it might help. So are all of us boaters are set to signup for those colors ? Perhaps safety isn't the main concern afterall but rather exists within a continuum of concerns. Seems to me everyone wants someone else to do something for our safety.

This all said it's at least an issue where the facts could be determined. We get enough good and bad weather and every other condition on the lake to do experiments and find the truth. I won't hold my breath though as that would actually take effort and time.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by topwater

I blew coffee out of my nose when I read such a foolish comment! I hope that was a shot of humor, because if it wasn't, you DON'T know much about nature. So please don't use that nature agrument... Moose charging a orange flag, LMAO. just plain foolish what some people will say. Yes, I have been hunting for 40 years, seen lots of moose, and after wearing my orange vest, I am still around to tell my woes.

Foolish ...YUP: You may be correct......Maybe I don't know much about NATURE..... Having never Blasted an animal out of his tracks...But I have (in my 69 years) learned something about HUMAN Nature. I find your post confusing. (No Emoticon) ...NB

PS: Just wondering what kind of FIRE POWER you had for Protection against a Moose in your 40 years of.......Hunting..?

[fatlazyless]

Yesiree Bud, a little whistle would probably be pretty effective in scaring off a wild animal such as a moose! Two toots on the whistle and you'd have Mr & Mrs Moose's attention because a moose is very aware of local noise and sounds. It's not for nothing that a moose has two large ears which get twitchy when the moose first detects a new sound.