Thefts from Boats in Alton?

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Why haven't the police obtained the identity of the "alleged" thief from the pawn shop owner? In RI the pawn shop is required to have the verified ID of every person that pawns an item. Several crimes have been solved because stolen items turned up in a pawn shop.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

Why haven't the police obtained the identity of the "alleged" thief from the pawn shop owner? In RI the pawn shop is required to have the verified ID of every person that pawns an item. Several crimes have been solved because stolen items turned up in a pawn shop.

They very well may have identified the individual. Depending on the investigation and ther severity of the thefts thay may be waiting for an indictment or even a secret indictment to be handed down before any information is released. Especially if they suspect multiple individuals they would not want to tip their hand until the investigation is complete.

These can be very complex investigations and take quite an amount of time. The fact that they have recovered some goods and can track them back through a pawn shop, so early in the investigation, means they have a better chance of succesful prosecution.

These investigations can be like pulling at a loose thread on a sweater. The more you pull the bigger the thread gets.

The god folks that turned the kakyak in that provided the initial leads should be commended for their honesty. It is a break like they provided that can sometimes net a whole ring of thieves!

[Lakesrider]

So if you had stuff stolen and someone bought it at a pawn shop, found out it was stolen and returned it, or turned it in to the police.....Would you compensate them anything in return?

I don't think I could not.

[win-a-pea-socky]

i think the police know who it is since pawn shops keep a record of who sold them stuff - so the police can file charges now that they have the evidence. legally the new victim, who is out the $200 has to collect from the thief, but good luck trying to collect a penny from him\her. maybe a small claims court claim against the pawn shop is a good idea. but that's a pain too. the pawn shop should just fork over the money if it has a conscience

[Sunrise Point]

The pawn shop makes quite a profit. Consider this, if the pawn shop owner paid the thief $100.00 for the kayak, then sold it to someone for $200.00, they have made a $100.00 profit.

When it is discovered to be stolen and the honest person returns it to the police, the pawn shop owner refuses to refund them the $200.00 and insists that legally they have to collect it from the thief (who only received $100.00 from the pawn shop owner).

The pawn shop owner has made $100.00 free and clear. There is absolultely NO incentive for them to be dilligent in making sure that any goods that they take in are not stolen, because if they sell the item, they keep all of the money and make a profit.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

... There is absolultely NO incentive for them to be dilligent in making sure that any goods that they take in are not stolen, because if they sell the item, they keep all of the money and make a profit...

I respectfully disagree.

JRC several posts up provided everyone with RSA 637:7.


I'll repeat it here:

"...The knowledge or belief required for paragraph I is presumed in the case of a dealer who:
(a) Is found in possession or control of property stolen from 2 or more persons on separate occasions; or
(b) Has received other stolen property within the year preceding the receiving charged; or
(c) Being a dealer in property of the sort received, retained or disposed, acquires it for a consideration which he knows is far below its reasonable value, or
(d) Purchases property from a law enforcement officer working in an undercover capacity, or an agent of such law enforcement officer, where such property has been explicitly represented as stolen.
III. As used in this section, ""receives'' means acquiring possession, control or title or lending on the security of the property; and ""dealer'' means a person in the business of buying or selling goods..."


This law holds a pawn shop or dealer to very high standards if they violate the law. If the item in question is valued between $500 and $1000 then the dealer is guilty of a Class B felony, and above $1000 a Class A felony.

Yes there is always some dealer that may try to make a fast buck but actual prosecutions are rare as the offending dealer will face basically the same charges as the thief he bought from.

[Sunrise Point]

Skip,

This kayak new, was probably valued at over $500.00, however, it was purchased "used" for less than that at the pawn shop and probably does not meet the threshold for a class B felony. I appreciate your respectful disagreement. However, my friend is out a few hundred dollars and the pawn shop has profited from this sale.

Where is the justice?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

Skip,

This kayak new, was probably valued at over $500.00, however, it was purchased "used" for less than that at the pawn shop and probably does not meet the threshold for a class B felony. I appreciate your respectful disagreement. However, my friend is out a few hundred dollars and the pawn shop has profited from this sale.

Where is the justice?

If the value is less than $500 then the offense is a misdemeanor. Still a crime.

The justice occurs when the thief is prosecuted.

Yes, I know, in many cases justice is never served when the thief escapes or fails to make restitution.

My point was that a pawn shop employee does indeed face significant risk if he knowingly deals in stolen goods.

I can tell you from personal professional experience that pawn shops are under constant scrutiny from a variety of law enforcement agencies. That said some always still fall through the cracks. Unfortunately much dealing in stolen goods actually takes place via the internet via third parties such as Craig's List, which is much harder to track.

Finally for a variety of legal reasons once a criminal investigation is taking place no restitution will take place until the case is ajudicated. This is also true in most civil cases.

The short answer?

Many times there simply is no justice, and that is truly sad.

[win-a-pea-socky]

Regardless of the variety of legal reasons why the pawn shop might not have to, or want to make restitution, there still remains the moral obligation to do so. they could do the right thing if they wanted to, but they chose not to.

I expect that after the criminal is prosecuted, or the statute of limitations expires if he isn't, the kayak will go back to the orginal owner but there's hardly any chance the buyer who turned it in is ever going to see a penny from the thief.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

This was mentioned earlier, the identity must be verified and recorded.

398:12 Records. – Every such pawnbroker shall keep a book in which, at the time of making a loan, shall be legibly written in the English language an account and description of the goods, articles or things pawned or pledged, the amount of money loaned thereon, the time of pledging them, the rate of interest to be paid on such loan and the name and residence of the pledgor, verified by photo identification issued by a governmental agency.

An officer can check those records anytime.

398:13 Inspections. – Any officer, having jurisdiction may enter upon any premises used by a licensed pawnbroker for the purposes of business, ascertain how the pawnbroker conducts his or her business and examine all articles taken in pawn or kept or stored in or upon said premises and all books and inventories relating thereto. Every such pawnbroker, his or her clerk, agent, servant, or other person in charge of the premises shall exhibit to such officer on demand any or all of such articles, books, and inventories.

Law enforcement has the tools and the info that the stolen items did go through the pawn shop. As Skip said, this may be leading to further investigations, prolonging resolution, but there also needs to be some action by law enforcement to resolve this in a reasonable time which should be weeks not months or years.

If it was minors then the pawn shop is in violation :

398:2 Prohibited Pledges. – No person shall receive in pawn, whether as security for any loan, transfer, service, undertaking, or advantage:
I. Anything of value from any minor or person in a visible state of intoxication from liquors or otherwise;
... (other parts not included here) ...

In short, it is about time to nab the "crook" (I can't use the words I would like to use on a family forum)

[SIKSUKR]

I don't get it. Shouldn't the pawn shop give the money they received back and be on the hook for what they paid out since it was their screw-up?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I don't get it. Shouldn't the pawn shop give the money they received back and be on the hook for what they paid out since it was their screw-up?

Good question.

How was it their screw-up?

If indeed they didn't follow the law in this transaction then they should be prosecuted and be responsible for a portion or all of the restitution. And I am sure that the agency investigating this crime is looking into that aspect of the matter as well.

But if the Shop followed all legal procedures in this transaction then how are they responsible? The person responsible is the criminal that stole the item and pawned it. That's the way our criminal justice system works.

I'll repeat it once again. Either criminally of civilly, when an item is in dispute before a Court any law enforcement agent or party's attorney will advise that no restitution take place until the dispute is adjudicated. For a variety of reasons if restitution takes place before a trial the restitution can be used to minimize or negate the charges.

It's not like TV. A case like this can take upwards of a year to work it's way through the system.

The victims that bought the item are entitled to full restitution. That restitution needs to come from the guilty party. Because the investigation is still on going we do not know yet who all the accused may be. And under our system of Justice we will not know who the guilty party is until they are convicted. Part of the sentencing in cases like these involve penalty and restitution.

I haven't stepped foot in a pawn shop in years (actually since I was stationed in Charleston, SC). But way back then I knew when I bought an item the receipt clearly stated "buyer beware" in South Carolina legalese. Does anyone know if that is part of the receipt when you purchase from a pawn shop up here?

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Skip

... It's not like TV. A case like this can take upwards of a year to work it's way through the system....

A case like this took 3 weeks for an arrest in Providence RI in the past year.

[Sunrise Point]

Why does the pawn shop get to keep the profit from the sale?

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

Why does the pawn shop get to keep the profit from the sale?

Why should they return it if they did not do anything wrong?

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Why should they return it if they did not do anything wrong?

Right/wrong doesn't neccessarily equate to legal/illegal. As Skip pointed out, all those things will have to be settled in turn, starting with the criminal stuff.

[win-a-pea-socky]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Why should they return it if they did not do anything wrong?

they should return the money because it's a good business decision that will generate goodwill with this customer and others. a bad reputation is much more costly than the lost profit in this case. they have a dissatified customer and many others who now know about it through the newspapers and this forum. think about the goodwill that would be gained by refunding the money. forget the legal argument. its the morally right thing to do.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Why should they return it if they did not do anything wrong?

They bought stolen property didn't they? What am I missing here?

[Sunrise Point]

They are essentially being rewarded for dealing in stolen property. It appears that as long as they can prove that they followed a certain protocol, they can keep the profit.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

They bought stolen property didn't they? What am I missing here?

I think if they did not know it was stolen, and they took reasonable precautions to ID the seller then they are as SOL as everyone else. The kayaks were taken from the pawn shop (which paid money for them), and I doubt the police reimbursed the pawn shop. Why should they lose on both ends (refund the original owner, and lose the property to police seizure)?