Asking advice how to deal with business dispute

Lakepilot · 12-15-2010, 10:06 PM

The way I read your (OP) second post, it was your design that you bought to the Architect. You wanted the architect to then prepare all the plans suitable for presentation to builders to get a quote. Did the architect not express concern when they saw your plans and you told them your budget? Did they tell you you would have to pare down the plans or it was likely to cost much more?

If you had gone to an architect and told them to design from scratch a house for x dollars then you have a reason to be mad. If you went to an architect and told them to do the plans for my design, you have a problem.

Sidewinder · 12-15-2010, 11:04 PM

I'm usually a lurker on here but I thought I would chime in here.

I work for a design build construction firm in southern, NH "no plug needed" and I'm a project manager and I also do Autodesk 2008 AutoCAD drawings.

In these days we have more clients coming to us for design/build services as its my more cost effective to have a construction company design, draw, estimate and have a structural engineering company do a peer review on the project rather than Architect.

This practice will be come more common as it saves the client thousands of dollars, in your case a budget number would of been established prior to drawings based on size and materials and a plethora of small details a very good estimate should have been established.

I have worked on houses, churches, industrial buildings, commercial buildings etc. saving the clients a substantial amount of architectural services.

I have done some side work for a structural engineer that works with the business your dispute is with, the firm seem to be very upstanding its a shame they are not even responding to you.

Good luck in the future and don't be afraid to use a reputable design build firm in the future.

Dr. Green · 12-15-2010, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

The way I read your (OP) second post, it was your design that you bought to the Architect. You wanted the architect to then prepare all the plans suitable for presentation to builders to get a quote. Did the architect not express concern when they saw your plans and you told them your budget? Did they tell you you would have to pare down the plans or it was likely to cost much more?

If you had gone to an architect and told them to design from scratch a house for x dollars then you have a reason to be mad. If you went to an architect and told them to do the plans for my design, you have a problem.

The plans were mine, and I told the architect our budget, and he continued to design for 4 months before saying "get a quote". I had no idea what building costs were and assumed that he would tell me if the plans were more than my budget. Though I was astounded that after all those months of work, and $20,000+ in fees, that the building was at twice budget, I was even more astounded when he told me he had expected it to cost even more.

He did say that some of the details could be pricey and add to the cost, so I was prepared to see it cost 1.2 times budget, even 1.25, but not 2x, or the 2.5x he estimated. So, no, he did not say "I think this is way over budget", at most he said some of the features might push the cost up.

Newbiesaukee
There was no specification in the contract of the budget because the architectural firm was just the designer, not the builder. It was my own naivete that most professional people would be honest, a naivete similar to that, I imagine, that led many to expect that FRM was a decent place to put one's savings. I only lost $20,000+. I'm writing all this as I feel ripped off. If I was misleading someone in a similar way, I would consider myself a criminal, even if I did not actually break a law, as I would have betrayed their trust.

Pineedles
I did tell them why I thought it was unfair and asked for 1/2 of my payments back. They did not reply. I don't understand your later post about a non-event. I spent $20,000 and got plans for an unaffordable (for me) house while I had clearly stated my budget. It was devastating emotionally.

Sidewinder
NOW I know about the ability of contractors to design, but when I started, I thought only architects did that. Given that I brought the design, which the architect embellished and improved, I now realize I could have gone to a designer, or contractor that designs, (which is what I'm doing now) and had a good experience, like I'm having now.... But I didn't know that then.

I'm now in mid-construction of a house that is around my original budget. I've gotten rid of the garage and apartment, the rounded walls, the balcony roof, etc. Its smaller, but big enough for my needs. If I'd known earlier those things were going to add so much to the cost, I could have dealt with them then, but the architect did not tell me that until I got the estimate and was frantically trying to reduce my costs. But by then, I had lost faith in his integrity, or another way to put it, his concern for the happiness, well-being and success of his client. Interestingly, I still like the personality of the architect, I just would recommend anyone to do business with him.

ApS · 12-16-2010, 08:02 AM

If the design you took to the architect was a "green" design, you should already know that such design requests are not particularly familiar to local builders, and would be costly.

1) First, I would have a local attorney write a letter demanding (as only an attorney would do

) repayment of what you think is owed to you.

(Cost? Less than $200)

2) Second, to save on attorneys' fees, I'd then take the architectural firm to "Small-Claims Court":

In most cases, it'd be a waste of time, but a "Small-Claims Court" claim should cost you less than $20, and would expose the defendant to public exposure (in the press) and embarrassment (in the courtroom).

You won't recover 50% of what you've already "lost", but in any settlement that would result, you might recover enough of your ill-spent funds to expand somewhat on your present construction.

Lakesrider · 12-16-2010, 09:15 AM

Sorry...Just my opinion...but right here is where I think you are screwed.

"The plans were mine, and I told the architect our budget, and he continued to design for 4 months before saying "get a quote". I had no idea what building costs were and assumed that he would tell me if the plans were more than my budget. Though I was astounded that after all those months of work, and $20,000+ in fees, that the building was at twice budget, I was even more astounded when he told me he had expected it to cost even more."

Needed to be way more proactive......

BroadHopper · 12-16-2010, 10:09 AM

I learned the hard way and this is the advice of my lawyer. If you are planning on a large expense project, have a statement of work in writing and signed by both parties. It's the only way to cover your a$$ in court!

BroadHopper · 12-16-2010, 10:12 AM

Put all of your current drawings into an architect software. You will be surprised how much you can do on your own. You can even make major changes and it will tell you how much it will cost or save.

Don't be afraid to do it yourself.

jmen24 · 12-16-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Put all of your current drawings into an architect software. You will be surprised how much you can do on your own. You can even make major changes and it will tell you how much it will cost or save.

Don't be afraid to do it yourself.

Don't do this. Plans are engineered with life safety in mind. Just changing around a design without knowledge of why things are laid out is what gets people killed. Degrees in Architecture and Structural Engineering exist for a reason. Start from stratch if you want to, but do not change an existing design.

Plus, a dwg or dxf file will not fully convert into those cheap over the counter programs that "spit" out a price. There is a reason why real design and estimating software costs $1,000's of dollars and not $150 at Staples.

Not dumping on you Broadhopper, but as a professional in this industry, this is some really dangerous advice.

ishoot308 · 12-16-2010, 08:58 PM

Dr. Green;

Jmen24 has given you solid advice.

In hindsight (which is always 20/20) I would have taken your over budget design and sat down with your original Architect and do what is called "value engineering". Basically cutting out the fluff or living space until your project is within budget. I have been involved in commercial construction for over 25 years and this is standard operating procedure on almost every job I have been involved with. I would think the same holds true for residential work in some respect.

Good Luck!

Dan

SAMIAM · 12-16-2010, 11:42 AM

I agree with MarkinNH.....you've already blown 20K. Why not get the advice of a good real estate attorney just to see where you stand? For a few hundred bucks, at least you will know if you have a good case or you're wasting your time.
Hard to believe that any legit biz would not sit down with you to listen to reason.

Heaven · 12-16-2010, 06:57 PM

As a side note, you are unlikely to get the same quality of design work from a design/build company as you are from a reputable architect (possibly excluding a design/build firm that has its own architect). My opinion is based on my work, where I see both types every day.

jmen24 · 12-16-2010, 07:44 PM

Heaven makes a solid point. It is not always the case, but is true more often than not.

If you work with a Design/Build firm, you should ask if their general liability insurance company knows that they do Design/Build and ask for proof that they do. Most of the time you will be surprised by the results of that question.

Dr. Green, I have worked with the company you are having this issue with, on more than one project. They provide some of the nicest design in this state, but they are always over budget.

The thing that gets most people in trouble when working with an Architect is that they do not get a builder involved until the design is complete. Architects do not order materials, manage man hours on a project or have any idea how to actually build a house ( a couple do, but most do not, I have met and worked with 1). Mainly, they have no idea what actually goes into building a design that they create. Remember, Architecture is a degree in contruction Theory, not in construction.

Having a builder perform Budget Reality Checks during design is very important to keeping the customers goals and budget in mind.

I am not sure what recourse you are going to have other than to stop into their office and discuss this issue with the owner. I know that their contracts are very clear in what you are going to pay and what you are going to get. I can have them start a design on a house tomorrow that I never intend to build, but I will still have to pay them for this use of manpower and experience in design.

Their contract will legally prevent them from having to refund your money. This is down to an ethics and honor issue, you are going to have get your money back, by pleading for it.

I strongly recommend that you do not threaten to destroy their reputation as a way to try and get your money back, it will more than likely backfire on you, especially if you plan to sub-contract for any major building player in your demographic. That is just my advice, from one business to another, that is never a tactic that pans out the way you would dream it will.

12-16-2010, 08:02 AM	#4
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 6,034 Thanks: 2,280 Thanked 787 Times in 563 Posts	Dr. Green...? If the design you took to the architect was a "green" design, you should already know that such design requests are not particularly familiar to local builders, and would be costly. 1) First, I would have a local attorney write a letter demanding (as only an attorney would do ) repayment of what you think is owed to you. (Cost? Less than $200) 2) Second, to save on attorneys' fees, I'd then take the architectural firm to "Small-Claims Court": In most cases, it'd be a waste of time, but a "Small-Claims Court" claim should cost you less than $20, and would expose the defendant to public exposure (in the press) and embarrassment (in the courtroom). You won't recover 50% of what you've already "lost", but in any settlement that would result, you might recover enough of your ill-spent funds to expand somewhat on your present construction.

12-16-2010, 10:09 AM	#6
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,615 Thanks: 3,245 Thanked 1,115 Times in 801 Posts	Have it in writing. I learned the hard way and this is the advice of my lawyer. If you are planning on a large expense project, have a statement of work in writing and signed by both parties. It's the only way to cover your a$$ in court! __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

12-16-2010, 10:12 AM	#7
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,615 Thanks: 3,245 Thanked 1,115 Times in 801 Posts	Software Put all of your current drawings into an architect software. You will be surprised how much you can do on your own. You can even make major changes and it will tell you how much it will cost or save. Don't be afraid to do it yourself. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

12-16-2010, 08:58 PM	#9
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 6,367 Thanks: 2,422 Thanked 5,349 Times in 2,093 Posts	Good Advice Dr. Green; Jmen24 has given you solid advice. In hindsight (which is always 20/20) I would have taken your over budget design and sat down with your original Architect and do what is called "value engineering". Basically cutting out the fluff or living space until your project is within budget. I have been involved in commercial construction for over 25 years and this is standard operating procedure on almost every job I have been involved with. I would think the same holds true for residential work in some respect. Good Luck! Dan

12-15-2010, 10:06 PM	#1
Lakepilot Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 446 Thanks: 70 Thanked 57 Times in 40 Posts	The way I read your (OP) second post, it was your design that you bought to the Architect. You wanted the architect to then prepare all the plans suitable for presentation to builders to get a quote. Did the architect not express concern when they saw your plans and you told them your budget? Did they tell you you would have to pare down the plans or it was likely to cost much more? If you had gone to an architect and told them to design from scratch a house for x dollars then you have a reason to be mad. If you went to an architect and told them to do the plans for my design, you have a problem.

12-15-2010, 11:04 PM	#2
Sidewinder Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	I'm usually a lurker on here but I thought I would chime in here. I work for a design build construction firm in southern, NH "no plug needed" and I'm a project manager and I also do Autodesk 2008 AutoCAD drawings. In these days we have more clients coming to us for design/build services as its my more cost effective to have a construction company design, draw, estimate and have a structural engineering company do a peer review on the project rather than Architect. This practice will be come more common as it saves the client thousands of dollars, in your case a budget number would of been established prior to drawings based on size and materials and a plethora of small details a very good estimate should have been established. I have worked on houses, churches, industrial buildings, commercial buildings etc. saving the clients a substantial amount of architectural services. I have done some side work for a structural engineer that works with the business your dispute is with, the firm seem to be very upstanding its a shame they are not even responding to you. Good luck in the future and don't be afraid to use a reputable design build firm in the future.

12-16-2010, 09:15 AM	#5
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	Sorry...Just my opinion...but right here is where I think you are screwed. "The plans were mine, and I told the architect our budget, and he continued to design for 4 months before saying "get a quote". I had no idea what building costs were and assumed that he would tell me if the plans were more than my budget. Though I was astounded that after all those months of work, and $20,000+ in fees, that the building was at twice budget, I was even more astounded when he told me he had expected it to cost even more." Needed to be way more proactive......

The Following User Says Thank You to Lakesrider For This Useful Post:
Heaven (12-16-2010)

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jmen24 For This Useful Post:
Heaven (12-16-2010), Pineedles (12-16-2010)

12-16-2010, 11:42 AM	#10
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,924 Thanks: 350 Thanked 1,693 Times in 595 Posts	I agree with MarkinNH.....you've already blown 20K. Why not get the advice of a good real estate attorney just to see where you stand? For a few hundred bucks, at least you will know if you have a good case or you're wasting your time. Hard to believe that any legit biz would not sit down with you to listen to reason.

12-16-2010, 06:57 PM	#11
Heaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 523 Thanks: 128 Thanked 95 Times in 67 Posts	As a side note, you are unlikely to get the same quality of design work from a design/build company as you are from a reputable architect (possibly excluding a design/build firm that has its own architect). My opinion is based on my work, where I see both types every day.

12-16-2010, 07:44 PM	#12
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	Heaven makes a solid point. It is not always the case, but is true more often than not. If you work with a Design/Build firm, you should ask if their general liability insurance company knows that they do Design/Build and ask for proof that they do. Most of the time you will be surprised by the results of that question. Dr. Green, I have worked with the company you are having this issue with, on more than one project. They provide some of the nicest design in this state, but they are always over budget. The thing that gets most people in trouble when working with an Architect is that they do not get a builder involved until the design is complete. Architects do not order materials, manage man hours on a project or have any idea how to actually build a house ( a couple do, but most do not, I have met and worked with 1). Mainly, they have no idea what actually goes into building a design that they create. Remember, Architecture is a degree in contruction Theory, not in construction. Having a builder perform Budget Reality Checks during design is very important to keeping the customers goals and budget in mind. I am not sure what recourse you are going to have other than to stop into their office and discuss this issue with the owner. I know that their contracts are very clear in what you are going to pay and what you are going to get. I can have them start a design on a house tomorrow that I never intend to build, but I will still have to pay them for this use of manpower and experience in design. Their contract will legally prevent them from having to refund your money. This is down to an ethics and honor issue, you are going to have get your money back, by pleading for it. I strongly recommend that you do not threaten to destroy their reputation as a way to try and get your money back, it will more than likely backfire on you, especially if you plan to sub-contract for any major building player in your demographic. That is just my advice, from one business to another, that is never a tactic that pans out the way you would dream it will.