Windmills along the lake

[Newbiesaukee]

If your point is that scientists have been wrong in the past, I could not agree more.

A lot of what we thought 35 years ago turns out to be not quite what we expected. This is how science works. The scientific tools we have now with computer models, etc. far surpass what we knew then and we are more likely closer to the "truth" now than we were 35 years ago.

As a physician, I had to continue to take refresher courses to keep up with new advances. It would be unethical to practice medicine based on what we knew 35 years ago.

I think the same is true of any profession or activity based on knowledge...from rocket science to home building.

My point is, any true scientist would agree it would be the height of arrogance to state anything with certainty at any point in time. But we only can deal with the best information that we have at any one time. In science, it is more likely that what we know now is closer to the truth than what we knew then. And by sticking to scientific principles and open-mindedness, we will know more in the future than we know now.

[Gearhead]

This discussion reminds me of the Monty Python call-in skit about farming. Someone called with a question about CEREAL PRODUCTION IN THE EEC, and the host told him, "I'm sorry, we're only taking calls about farming." and hung up. It still makes me laugh.

[JPC]

Originally Posted by Gearhead

This discussion reminds me of the Monty Python call-in skit about farming. Someone called with a question about CEREAL PRODUCTION IN THE EEC, and the host told him, "I'm sorry, we're only taking calls about farming." and hung up. It still makes me laugh.

Speaking of wind mills, on my way to work this morning I saw that the Mobil Station on Rt101A near exit 7 is up to $343/gal. After the initial investment of putting up wind mills, wind is free (cheap power vs. Middle East oil). If all hell breaks loose in the Middle East then $5/gal is not that far off.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by Rose

I said I'm out of the debate, and I mean that.



You're as bad as some of my students...do you read for content? What does the last sentence in my paragraph say? "What I wrote is exactly what I taught them, and nothing more."

You are both spending so much time blowing so much air you could both power a windmill.

[NoBozo]

Remember the New Math..? If 70% of the students in the class believe that 2+2=5, then It Is So. . It would be hurtful to the self esteem of the majority of the class to correct them with the truth. After all, they will figure it out sooner or later, right?

You can't carry on a reasonable and logical conversation with people who arrive at a "scientific" conclusion by Consensus. Consensus is a refusal to accept responsibility for ones Own conclusions, because Consensus is NOT Your Own conclusion.
---------------------------------------------------------
Consensus: (Taken from Wikipedia) The Bold is mine.

"Consensus describes the primary way in which editorial decisions are made on Wikipedia. There is no single definition of what consensus means on Wikipedia, but in articles consensus is typically used to try to establish and ensure neutrality and verifiability. Editors usually reach consensus as a natural and inherent product of editing; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, then everyone who reads it has an opportunity to leave the page as it is or change it. When editors cannot reach agreement by editing, the process of finding a consensus is continued by discussion on the relevant talk pages" .
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I take full responsibility for stating here that Science/Math is NOT driven by Consensus. 2+2=4 ...no matter how you FEEL about it.

Feel free to look up the word Editorial. NB

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Rose

Well, it's settled in my mind, but I know there's no use in trying to make my point here. Now I must go prep to teach my college-age students what greenhouse gases do.

Rose is all done trying to make her point here.

Originally Posted by Rose

You made an erroneous conclusion based on your assumption that as someone who believes in anthropogenic global warming, I cannot limit my lectures to well known facts. There was no inference...you decided to create one. Talk about condescending. Guess what...I can. What I wrote is exactly what I taught them, and nothing more.

I'm out as well since some people here prefer to do nothing but make false accusations and refuse to see that they were wrong in doing so. Seems like a trend in this forum, no matter what thread it is.

Rose is out of here now

Originally Posted by Rose

I know I said I was out, but I do check for just this type of deception on the part of others. Acres per Second quoted me (and in such a way that when I quote him it doesn't show up...how convenient) as saying,

"I cannot limit my lectures to well known facts."

Since you decided to quote only half of my sentence, I will provide the full paragraph.

"You made an erroneous conclusion based on your assumption that as someone who believes in anthropogenic global warming, I cannot limit my lectures to well known facts. There was no inference...you decided to create one. Talk about condescending. Guess what...I can. What I wrote is exactly what I taught them, and nothing more."

Do not misquote me like that again.

Rose knows that she said she is out of here BUT

Originally Posted by Rose

I said I'm out of the debate, and I mean that.


You're as bad as some of my students...do you read for content? What does the last sentence in my paragraph say? "What I wrote is exactly what I taught them, and nothing more."

Rose said she’s out of the debate and she means it this time

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Rose is all done trying to make her point here.
Rose is out of here now
Rose knows that she said she is out of here BUT
Rose said she’s out of the debate and she means it this time

Well Rusty, if you were being questioned, and your posts were being parsed and quoted out of context, would you return to the thread to try to clear the air?

For me, it is an easy answer...I would.

[jrc]

Come on, I disagree with AGW, and Rose believes in it, but this piling on is just silly.

Rose is teaching about the greenhouse effect, a well known, non-controversial description of how the sun warms the whole earth in a manner similair to how the sun warms a greenhouse.

No one questions the effect, the disagreements come when you discuss changes to the effect and causes of the changes.

I will not re-enter the AGW discussion but this vendetta against Rose is just wrong. She clarified her comments, let it drop.

[SIKSUKR]

Agreed. As a member that has made his opposite views clear, I welcome Rose and anybody else's differing opinions. Unlike other members, I welcome debate and not being told all the answers are in. That in my mind is not up for debate.

[Rusty]

IMHO a good teacher should have knowledge on the subject matter, good communication skills (including listening), and patience.
A good teacher doesn’t take on a debate and then throw the towel in four times because someone has different views on the subject.

[NoBozo]

The Global Warming Spy Satellite riding on a NASA Rocket didn't make it to orbit. SNAFU. I wonder what that's all about..??

Not trying to make trouble...just trying to encourage thought.. NB

Time Sensitive Link:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-04-07-48-04

[trfour]

And Yes!... Not so easy for Rocket Science either... Up's and downs abound here on Earth. The lessens learned FROM OUR GREAT Teachers 'Shore helps.
The final word however comes from above us all. Just keep that in mind as well.

We try to, and we live and learn from our mistakes. Look above and we may get another shake.
Terry
____________________________________

[SAMIAM]

Al Gore's 1/2 a billion $$ satellite now sleeps with the fishes !

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Al Gore's 1/2 a billion $$ satellite now sleeps with the fishes !

Sam that was Excellent. There hasn't been much to smile about lately but that made me laugh out loud. NB

[Rose]

This BS has just made it clear that my time here is a waste. Some of you are willing to stop and think and listen (as I was of jrc's opinion and he of mine, and I appreciate that), but others are just mindless fools who don't want to think for themselves and want to maintain the status quo because it suits their lives as they currently experience them. Too bad you're screwing over your progeny. Congratulations. You make the country weaker by not educating yourselves and thus thinking for yourselves.

[Jonas Pilot]

Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!

[NoBozo]

ROSE: We can only HOPE.......................ROSE..C'mon..lighten up. Life is short and there are issues that each of us are passionate about but you can't let it OBSESS you.. NB

[NoRegrets]

Don't go Rose or others. Even though our votes may cancel each other the debate is lost when personal snipes get to you.

I am not a fan of the Global Climate game. I feel it is a program engineered by elitest politicians for their own personal financial gain. It also conviently diverts focused attention on the goings on in government.

I believe the real issue is concentrated pollution that is created by the numbers of people in the world.

[MAXUM]

The whole climate change debate has gone of for years, I for one think the whole premise that ANY of it is man made is a bunch of garbage. It's a whipped up fantasy to create a "crisis" for the government to "solve" or in more exact terms waste more tax payers dollars to force unwanted regulation down our collective throats to lock in more money for them to further waste. It's a vicious cycle. Point being, since the last ice age the plant has been warming up, looking back in history before the ice age the planet was a much warmer place than it is today. Why should we not expect it to return to that state naturally? Stupid.

Now to the point of renewable and alternative energy, sure it's a great idea and in theory makes sense. In reality it has a LONG way to go before it can readily compete with cheaper and more dependable fossil fuels. Does that mean completely abandoning further exploration of renewables? Of course not, but to suggest the idea pushing these very expensive and not as efficient solutions makes little to no sense when the country is going broke. If the private sector wants to develop this stuff, great, let the feds give companies massive tax incentives to do so and see where science takes it. I'm sure that in time solutions will come about that can readily compete with what we have today, but no that's not good enough. The whacko tree hugging liberals figure that they can, with the stroke of a pen they can make laws that will advance this process come hell or high water, not even taking under consideration what that means to the average Joe who ends up footing the bill.

[SAMIAM]

Couldn't have said it better,Maxum........many of us disagree on this issue and we've all made a "pokes" at each other but for Rose to call people mindless fools simply because they don't agree with her brings respectful debate to a very low place.I hope Rose keeps her word and fades into the (smoggy from all of our automobiles) sunset.

[ApS]

Well Rusty, if you were being questioned, and your posts were being parsed and quoted out of context, would you return to the thread to try to clear the air?

The entire paragraph was awkward and unwieldy it's doubtful anyone actually understood any of it. Now that entire paragraph got deleted, so how 'bout skipping the politics of AGW and attempt to return to the subject of this thread?

(Which was Windmills along the lake).

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Rose

This BS has just made it clear that my time here is a waste. Some of you are willing to stop and think and listen (as I was of jrc's opinion and he of mine, and I appreciate that), but others are just mindless fools who don't want to think for themselves and want to maintain the status quo because it suits their lives as they currently experience them. Too bad you're screwing over your progeny. Congratulations. You make the country weaker by not educating yourselves and thus thinking for yourselves.

I take that back. I was hoping to offer an olive branch and the benefit of the doubt but looks like I was right on this case too. If you don't agree with me then your a mindless fool who can't think for themself? The elitism on the gw side is astounding. The true colors come out when questioned at all.

[Woodsy]

I dont understand why balance is soo hard to achieve?? The US economy REQUIRES cheap oil to function... and the lack of cheap oil will slow or stop any economic recovery. I predict a VERY quiet summer on the lake! We need to look at ALL ALTERNATIVES!

Like it or not $5+ per gallon gas IS coming. Its just a question of when. Right now its a spike due to Middle East unrest. When it comes back to "reality" the price of gas will be right around $3.20/gal... and the sheep will all say "hey at least its not $4.50". When it spikes at $5, and returns to $4 the sheep will all say "hey at least its not $5". etc etc etc Gas will keep on climbing and climbing. Its NOT going to stop... its simple supply and demand. As the economies of China & India (2 of the worlds most populous nations) continue to grow at exponential rates, the production of oil remains constant, the supply of oil dwindles.... its a recipe for economic disaster!!

We as Americans need to embrace alternative energy sources. Use the economies of scale to make it happen cheaply! I am all for windmills on mountain tops, every roof should have solar panels, geothermal heating should be required on new construction (where feasible) and the big no-no word... NUCLEAR! We need to invest in our mass transit infrastructure. Hi-speed rail, intercity bus & rail lines etc.. get people out of thier cars and out of airplanes! People forget that at the start of WWII, America had the BEST public transportation system in the world! Trolleys, buses and trains! It will be EXPONENTIALLY cheaper to invest now in public transportation, that it will be when gas is $7/gal and electricity is $.50/KWH (right now its about $.16/KWH).

Embracing and encouraging alternative energy sources also helps reduce greenhouse gases and the global warming debate. Not for nothing but if you think that 6,904,267,367 people (1+ Billion in CHINA alone) voraciously consuming natural resources and burning fossil fuels doesn't have a negative effect on the global climate and the global economy, then you are retarded!

Woodsy

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

........... negative effect on the global climate and the global economy, then you are retarded!

Woodsy

I agreed with a couple of things you said, disagreed with a couple, was going to respond then you ended as most AGW believers do. AGW really has become a cult and I'm amazed that so called "critical thinkers" behave like this. Because of this cap and trade and CO2 credit schemes need to be stopped. Unbridled environmentalism do-gooders are driving jobs away and need to be reeled in. Enough is enough.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

, then you are retarded!

Woodsy

Agree with most of your post Woodsy and then you solidify mine by not only offending people that disagree but people with special needs. This is exactly what I've been talking about. The intolerance is incredible. I think its obvious who the reasonable thinkers are.

[NoBozo]

FWIW: We haven't built an Oil Refinery OR a Nuclear Power Plant in over 30 years. This is because the "Environmentalists" blocked any efforts to do so. Now those same people are whining because they don't have cheap gas for their Volvos and cheap power for their 60" plazma TVs. Go figure. NB

[Woodsy]

ITD...

I am not as radical a AGW believer as you might think and I am certainly no tree hugger. But I try to apply some sense and logic to things. 7 BILLION people all consuming natural resources, and the majority of those people live in countries that have little or no environmental rules is going to have an effect on the global environment, and most certainly an effect on the global economy. I accept that I am going to pay higher and higher energy costs. I also know that if we start to effect a shift in our thinking now we can mitigate the damage to our economy. Without low cost energy an enconomy cannot thrive.

I really dont care if people want to debate the earth was warm once, and is warming naturally again... the reality is that it is warming. Is it doom and gloom for humans? Naa... we can adapt. Some species wont and will become extinct. However, we as species are consuming the earths natural resources at an ALARMING rate. This consumption will cause the failures of many economies, our own included if we don't find some energy balance!

For example... all of the AGW types tout their electric cars... yet the Prius has a HUGE carbon footprint. and where is all the electricity thats needed to power the new Chevy Volt?? I havent heard of a new powerplant being built? The national grid is outdated and teetering on collapse without some serious improvements! The funny thing is these same types dont want the Power Line project thats supposed to come down from quebec! LOL!

Woodsy

[jrc]

Wow, "mindless fools" and "retards", I guess civility is gone for good.

Back to the original topic, I had the day off for Presidents Day, had a nice ride to the lake and took a ride down Belknap Point Road. The windmill is there right on the road. Not very intrusive, it actually surprised me, given how wooded the general area is. I wasn't down there looking for it but I found it.

I don't think you could see it from the water unless you got at just the right angle. I don't remember any noise but it wasn't very windy that day.

Ok, back to the arguing...

[Woodsy]

Allow me to clarify my use of the word retarded... it was not used in a derogatory manner. As taken from Webster's dictionary....

RETARDED : slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress

I stand by my statement... There are almost 7 BILLION people (and growing daily) who are consuming natural resources and producing waste at an amazing rate in this world, especially in the growing economies of India and China. Anyone who thinks that this doesnt somehow have an effect on the global climate is definitely IMHO limited in intellectual development.... completely unable to grasp the big picture. Its like living next to pig farm with 10000 hogs and telling me it doesnt stink... or arguing that the hogs dont stink because the wind blows the other way. We know the hogs stink... we can just argue about just how much they stink! We know that human population growth is having an effect on the climate, we can argue about how much effect!

Things need to change and the sooner the better... it will be cheaper now than 10 or 20 years from now. Embrace alternative forms of energy, use economies of scale to make them more affordable....

Woodsy

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD...

I am not as radical a AGW believer as you might think and I am certainly no tree hugger. But I try to apply some sense and logic to things. 7 BILLION people all consuming natural resources, and the majority of those people live in countries that have little or no environmental rules is going to have an effect on the global environment, and most certainly an effect on the global economy. I accept that I am going to pay higher and higher energy costs. I also know that if we start to effect a shift in our thinking now we can mitigate the damage to our economy. Without low cost energy an enconomy cannot thrive.

I really dont care if people want to debate the earth was warm once, and is warming naturally again... the reality is that it is warming. Is it doom and gloom for humans? Naa... we can adapt. Some species wont and will become extinct. However, we as species are consuming the earths natural resources at an ALARMING rate. This consumption will cause the failures of many economies, our own included if we don't find some energy balance!

For example... all of the AGW types tout their electric cars... yet the Prius has a HUGE carbon footprint. and where is all the electricity thats needed to power the new Chevy Volt?? I havent heard of a new powerplant being built? The national grid is outdated and teetering on collapse without some serious improvements! The funny thing is these same types dont want the Power Line project thats supposed to come down from quebec! LOL!

Woodsy

Well, it takes energy to be productive, to produce things. People like to point out that we consume a quarter of the world's energy, but we also produce a quarter of the world's goods. Making stuff uses energy, being productive uses energy. I think about the cities like Lowell and Manchester and others, one of the factors of being near a river was the ability to exploit the river for power, now a thin wire comes in and gives us all we need. If electricity production had been perfected three hundred years ago this country would look much different than it does now.

I find it ironic the EPA now considers co2 a pollutant. The catalytic converter developed over the last 40 or so years because of EPA regulations, takes all those other nasty pollutants and turn them into....... you guessed it co2 and water among a few other things. I haven't looked up the numbers but I'm willing to bet that you would end up with a much larger reduction in CO2 just by requiring everyone saw off their converters rather than any cap and trade scheme. (No, I'm not advocating that be done.)

I hear the argument "..more public transportation", well tell me, how will that work out in NH (Lakes region for instance) or the rural areas of the 49 other states? I'll answer, it won't. It would be a disaster of epic proportions in waste of infrastructure, money and fuel. It would be impossible to economically cover the area that needs to be covered in this country.

The electric car actually has some appeal to me although not in the presently available models. Look at the Volt for instance. Right now it's batteries can store about 16kwh of energy, of which about 8 kwh is usable. With that power it can travel about 35 miles before the gas motor kicks in. Now I think that is actually pretty good for what it is, although it is still not that useful. This 8kwh of useful energy is stored in a 375 pound battery. If the battery can be made to store about 4 times that usable energy in the same 375 pounds I think the technology will start to give the IC engine a run for its money. As a comparison, a gallon of gas weighs about 6 pounds and stores about 36 kwhs of energy.

As far as the infrastructure for electric generation and distribution goes, I'm not sure how big of an issue that really is. As far as efficiency goes, large scale power plants are pretty efficient especially when compared to an IC motor that is probably best case 30% efficient at optimum usage.

Solar and wind are shams as far as I am concerned. They require huge, and I mean huge subsidies to break even compared to fossil fuels. We need huge advances in manufacturing and implementation for them to be competitive. I think the current tax credit/subsidies are actually holding these technologies back. All in the name of feel good politics to say we are doing something "green".

I was going to get into the dubiousness of AGW science and more importantly the proposed "solutions" to AGW but I'm tired of writing now so I'll stop. Maybe another day........

[Pineedles]

Wow ITD! When you are rested, write some more. Your basic facts are very revealing. Thank you!

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"I stand by my statement... There are almost 7 BILLION people (and growing daily) who are consuming natural resources and producing waste at an amazing rate in this world, especially in the growing economies of India and China. Anyone who thinks that this doesnt somehow have an effect on the global climate is definitely IMHO limited in intellectual development.... completely unable to grasp the big picture."

No one believes that humans have no effect, but many believe the effect is tiny and insignificant compared to the natural earth and solar processes. Humans always overestimate our power, the climate forces on earth will do whatever it does based overwhelmingly on natural process. We will be kicking ourselve that we didn't spend our time and money finding way to adapt to change rather than vainly trying to stop.

Look how helpless we are today to the force of one hurricane, one tornado, one earthquake, one tsunami, or even a snowstorm.

Yet some believe they can change the climate of entire planet by few minor things like switching what lightbulbs we use.

[Woodsy]

ITD...

You make my point and I appreciate it. There is no one solution thats going to fix everything.... as far as solar goes, you may think its a crock until you start putting it on every roof. I am pretty sure the Germans mandate that. Wind is the same way... wait until there are lots of small windmills... With economy of scale lowering the costs it will all help.

Everything we do in this country is tied to energy production... gas & diesel fuel go up... food and everything else that gets delivered by truck goes up. just about EVERYTHING is delivered by truck. Everything delivered by rail goes up as well, however its a much smaller increase as high fuel costs usually tend to be good for a railroads bottom line they can move more freight for less fuel costs. The big commodity that goes up is coal... coal is used primarily to generate electricity. So the electricity required for those electric cars is gonna get pricey as well.

I see your point about public transportation in the lakes region... however, when gas gets exponentially expensive then what? The people with $$$ buy an electric car... the poor folk have deal with thier expensive old gas vehicle and the large part of their budget it gobbles. So they dont travel unless necessary, get rid of thier car altogether, or we go back in time somewhat and people start using some form of mass transit. No doubt mass transit works better for areas like boston, but at one time even laconia had a trolley!


Woodsy

[Gearhead]

I saw this article in "The Onion" recently. Pretty good idea?



http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-...ith-hig,18473/

[Cobalt 25]

High speed busses- fantastic idea! It may be a tad bit exciting when they swerve from lane to lane at 165 per. And the old ones can be converted for only forty dollars!

Peter

[NoRegrets]

I will assume the 40 dollar upgrade is the federal budget number. I bet they could turn that 40 into several gabillion dollars by the time they hire staff, administrators, advertising agencies, buy off anyone objecting to the plan, and then leave enough so they can dip into the money pot for their own needs.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Cobalt 25

the old ones can be converted for only forty dollars!

They'll need a Night Watchman.

[Argie's Wife]

The link is to The Onion - a satirical news program.

[Cobalt 25]

I've been enjoying The Onion for years. They've got some funny stuff on there!

Peter