Speed Limits

Cal · 05-03-2005, 08:44 AM

This same story transpired in New Jersey last year after a high ranking money man bought a mega mansion on the water at the Jersey shore. He didn't like the noise...so he pulled some strings and had a SL bill introduced for ALL TIDAL WATERS. This meant the entire ICW for the length of NJ plus rivers feeding it. There are NWZ's but nowhere is there 150' rule. The facts were presented calmly , orderly and precisely. The ruling was a couple more NWZ (with one in front of his house of course).
Maryland also has crowded inland (tidal) waters. They put a bandaid on the problem by making some particularly busy areas NO WAKES on Sat.Sun and Holidays. So Tuesday morning when there is three other boats nearby you can buzz though these areas at any speed. Sat/Sun /Hol's when it's crowded , like Weirs Beach area , it's all NO WAKE. Certainly makes sense since these are also large "rafting" areas.
This probably wouldn't work in NH since all of these posts have been totally one sided(me,me,me) and we all know who you are , don't we???

Jan · 05-03-2005, 12:01 PM

On my street we were concerned about cars speeding through. We got the town to lower the speed limit and post Slow signs to PREVENT anything horrible from happening. According to some of you, just the threat of problems was not enough. Our children needed to be hit first before anything was done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

...all of these posts have been totally one sided(me,me,me)

It is sad that those against speed limits only think of themselves.

lake4life · 05-03-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan

It is sad that those against speed limits only think of themselves.

Yes, and how dare people oppose warrant-less wiretaps. Such selfishness in putting ones personal freedom over the security of the nation!

The gas prices will curb the 100mph, triple-V8, GFBL boats. Chill. We just got the boating license thing enacted.. give it a chance to produce some results.

I think that keeping the lake safe and enjoyable for the majority is paramount. However, I think that throwing legislation at it is a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that is more complicated. Something like more NWZs would be much more practical, as they are far easier to enforce and they are already part of the lake institution. I don't think more bureaucracy is the answer to the problem. I wish that when people came to this state, they would abide by the most recognizable symbol of the state, our motto: Live Free or Die. Learn it, live it.

Great Idea · 05-03-2005, 01:26 PM

Prevention is key and the goal..... wiretaps??? What does that have to do with boats hurdling around a crowded lake at 90 plus. If only the live free or die really meant that...... often times it means " live free or die taking a few folks with me as a consequence of my selfish acts"...... Are we really "free" when we all as tax payers end up "paying" for this "freedom"? examples ...... no seat belt law, no helmet law and soon we will "pay" for no speed limit on Winni..... who do you think ultimately "pays" all the outrageous medical bills/court costs that are incurred not to mention the emotional toll on the family's when these freedom lovin folks bounce off a tree????? I wish it was that easy lake4life. Unfortunately often trying to protect the few idiots from themselves and utimately protecting the general public requires laws restricting the majority, an unfair yet neccessary result. Common sense would be preferrable yet unfortunately in very short supply.

PROPELLER · 05-03-2005, 02:29 PM

Gross exaggeration of the alleged problems on Winnipesaukee are the biggest beef I have with some of the posts on this forum.

Great Idea says the lake is crowded when in fact it is only crowded in 2-3 areas on weekends probably between 11am-3pm. The rest of the time & the rest of the lake are wide open. Apparently many of the posters have not boated in other areas of the lake or other areas beyond Winnipesaukee.

Great Idea says boats are hurdling around the lake at 90 plus when in fact the the vast majority of high performance boats on Winnipesaukee are traveling between 50-60 mph. See Cals post previously where he says his most efficient speed is 50 mph. Unless you do something custom to some of these boats I don't think the Formulas, Bajas or Fountains being sold on this lake are capable of speeds beyond 70-75 WOT & 90% of the time they are not WOT. I took a ride on 38' Sonic in Ft. Lauderdale last year operated by a former professional racer. When I asked him how fast the boat would go on its best day in the best conditions he answered 70 mph tops.

You can be passionate about what you believe, I respect that. But lets stop the gross exaggerations being used to try & prove a point or support a viewpoint.

lake4life · 05-03-2005, 02:50 PM

First off, the discussion is a law limiting the speed to 45 mph, not "90 plus." A lot of boats on the lake are capable of exceeding that and do not have speedometers.

As I stated before in a previous post, a speed limit only goes after a symptom, not the problem. The problem is reckless and oblivious boat operators. If I am riding down the broads on my Sea Doo at 60 mph, I am being neither reckless nor oblivious. The means to protect people should be from better use of the ideas already in place. A NWZ near busy areas like the island choke-point near the Weirs would actually make the lake safer.

If the cost of "paying" for this freedom is so great, why hasn't anyone brought up any facts or figures? As if there were hundreds of people dying on the lake every year.... please. By that logic, we should outlaw all motorcycles. Doesn't the public pay when someone messes themselves up on a machine that is known to be much more dangerous than a car, even if the accident wasn't their fault? Sorry, I think there's only so much we can do to protect people from themselves.

Where do you think the cost of paying for enforcement will come from? The cost of the equipment, training, etc. Would that money be better used just putting more marine patrol on the lake to catch the reckless idiots already out there?

Yes, there are idiots on the lake, but I think it's a mistake to rushing into a broadbase law without considering the much more viable alternatives.

Seaplane Pilot · 05-03-2005, 03:32 PM

I have just received the propaganda mailing from WinnFABS in the mail. Interesting it was postmarked from "Suburban Maryland"...They got my name from the Long Island Land Owner's Association. I also know first hand that they have approached several, if not all, of the yacht clubs, condos and other organizations on the lake looking for endorsements for their speed limit efforts. This mailing is the biggest bunch of rubbish I have ever seen and they should be ashamed to have sent it. If I ever doubted my position on this issue (which I have not - I'm against it), this mailing would have rapidly pushed me to the other side. Referencing the Littlefield collision of what is happening to the lake is totally outrageous. Excessive speed was not even an issue in this case, yet they refer to this in an effort to support a speed limit.

One thing I have not seen referenced too much in these posts is the existing Boater Education Certificate requirement. This was passed into law and requires an operator to learn the boating rules and laws as they now exist. The biggest violation I have seen on the lake by far is the 150' rule. Out of everything taught in the class, this seems to be the easiest to remember and abide by on the lake, yet it's the most violated. I've been on the lake a lot of years and it's not violated most often by go-fast boats, but rather seems to be most violated by personal watercraft and family bowrider operators with 5 kids, 3 dogs, and a tube strapped to the back of the boat. Some of these people really don't have a clue as to the rules or where they are going. I mean no offense to anyone, but again, I call it as I see it. Do some of the go-fast boats violate the rules? Yes, of course. But the arguments of "safety" made by WinnFABS don't just apply to the go-fast boats. A speed limit is NOT the answer and I will do my part to fight this. Enforce the laws as they now exist, don't write new laws thinking that they'll solve the problem - they won't.

Great Idea · 05-03-2005, 04:54 PM

Propeller,

I will remind you of my "gross exaggeration" again when one of the 4 or 5 large Formula/Fountains/Donzi's or Cig's that race up and down the lake every weekend hit someone or one another at high speed....... Remember , its not a question of if but when. There are quite a few boats on Winni that will do 90 and even some that will exceed 100 to 110. You need to be out our way on Saturday or Sunday. On another note I have nothing to do with WinnFabs are whatever it is. My position comes from experience with large power boats and contact with those that make/race large power boats.
Many of them feel as I do that these boats on Winni are silly. As for the arguement regarding the unfortunate accident in Merrideth applying to speed limits? Perhaps it does relate directly to the issue since that type of 36ft Baja would most likely never have been on the lake if a speed limit had existed..... chew on that. The very nature of the poor visibility in these boats due to the bow being high in the water and obstructing the drivers vision while bringing the boat on plane is a BIG reason as to why they don't belong on a congested lake.

jarhead · 05-03-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Idea

Propeller,

As for the arguement regarding the unfortunate accident in Merrideth applying to speed limits? Perhaps it does relate directly to the issue since that type of 36ft Baja would most likely never have been on the lake if a speed limit had existed..... chew on that. The very nature of the poor visibility in these boats due to the bow being high in the water and obstructing the drivers vision while bringing the boat on plane is a BIG reason as to why they don't belong on a congested lake.

Great Idea = No Idea

What manufacturer is going to say that there boats don't belong on the lake ? You people bring up this one accident , as tragic as it is ,and use it to scare people over to your way of thinking what a joke. Come up with facts not your narrow minded opinion.I can tell you that visibility is a none issue , and will show you first hand if you like , as my 30' boat hops up on plane with little or no bow risein meer seconds . I have been trying to stay quiet but you narrow minded individuales with your hidden agenda are realy starting to annoye me.Your scare tactics, false facts and personal acounts may sway a few people but i feel that if you took a pole today you would find the vast majority is not thinking the way you are and is a lot smarter than you think.EDUCATION AND MORE FUNDING TO ENFORCE EXISTING REG'S ARE THE KEY TO A SAFER LAKE!

codeman671 · 05-03-2005, 07:12 PM

Great Idea, the subject of bow lift has come up before on speed-related topics. The time to plane on a 36' Baja is 3.5 seconds at 16.5. The funny thing is that the data for this was posted by Fat Jack who advocates for the speed limit. My post previous to that said that the boat can do well under 30mph. I have driven numerous boats in my life, probably more than most on here and can honestly say that for a 36' boat to plane so quickly and at such a low speed is impressive and does not create a dangerous situation with the bow obstructing view unless the driver simply does not know what they are doing. In this case it points back to boater education. I think that it has been established many times over that there were reasons other than speed for the unfortunate Littlefield accident. The outcome probably would have been the same if he was in a cruiser or bowrider. Alcohol and boating do not mix, especially at night. Were you there? I wasn't. Only those there that night can attest to the true nature of the accident so will people please stop blaming speed for this when even MP and countless hours of professional accident reconstruction cannot attribute the accident to this???

The number of boats on Winni that approach the 90-100mph mark is very few. A few cat hulls and an occasional step hull might make it there but not many. I looked at a 38' Baja recently for sale and on its best day with 525's it is a 70mph boat. A far cry from 100mph.

chase1 · 05-03-2005, 07:54 PM

Great Idea,

Quote:

I will remind you of my "gross exaggeration" again when one of the 4 or 5 large Formula/Fountains/Donzi's or Cig's that race up and down the lake every weekend hit someone or one another at high speed

Are you really upset about 4 or 5 boats running up and down the lake on a weekend? That’s it....... 4 or 5. You think that restricting 4 or 5 boats will make a significant change and better serve our tax dollars than if put toward enforcenent and education?

Quote:

My position comes from experience with large powerboats and contact with those that make/race large power boats.
Many of them feel as I do that these boats on Winni are silly.

Regardless of what people think it was you that pointed out, we are welcome to use our boats anywhere we like as long as we do so safely. (Or was the invite just of me)

Quote:

As for the argument regarding the unfortunate accident in Merrideth applying to speed limits? Perhaps it does relate directly to the issue since that type of 36ft Baja would most likely never have been on the lake if a speed limit had existed..... chew on that

I am purchasing property on the lake this spring and my boats ("GFBL" included) are coming to stay, regardless....... What’s for desert?

Chase1

Rayhunt · 05-03-2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Idea

Propeller,

I will remind you of my "gross exaggeration" again when one of the 4 or 5 large Formula/Fountains/Donzi's or Cig's that race up and down the lake every weekend hit someone or one another at high speed....... Remember , its not a question of if but when. There are quite a few boats on Winni that will do 90 and even some that will exceed 100 to 110. You need to be out our way on Saturday or Sunday. On another note I have nothing to do with WinnFabs are whatever it is. My position comes from experience with large power boats and contact with those that make/race large power boats.
Many of them feel as I do that these boats on Winni are silly. As for the arguement regarding the unfortunate accident in Merrideth applying to speed limits? Perhaps it does relate directly to the issue since that type of 36ft Baja would most likely never have been on the lake if a speed limit had existed..... chew on that. The very nature of the poor visibility in these boats due to the bow being high in the water and obstructing the drivers vision while bringing the boat on plane is a BIG reason as to why they don't belong on a congested lake.

Have you ever been on the lake??? Winni ..RIGHT ???
There are a handful of boats that will reach over 70-75 , never mind 90 or 100-110
Please stop ranting and raving ..these are just not the facts
I was on winni over 200 hours last year and never once had a problem with a speeding boat..

jeffk · 05-03-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Idea

...... no seat belt law, no helmet law and soon we will "pay" for no speed limit on Winni..... who do you think ultimately "pays" all the outrageous medical bills/court costs that are incurred not to mention the emotional toll on the family's when these freedom lovin folks bounce off a tree?????

I think someone is crazy to ride a motorcycle without a helmet but if that's their choice.... Maybe we should stop people from water and snow skiing, and ice and rock climbing, and hiking, and biking, and canoeing, and snowmobiling, and walking (my Mom fell and broke her wrist a few years ago). All these activities and many more cause injury and death every year. Many of the activities are unnecessary, i.e done for sport. Further, people have to spend money and run risks to rescue the injured. 40,000 people are killed in car accidents every year and we continue to drive cars. Should we all sit at home where we would be nice and safe? But a lot of accidents happen at home ....

Supporting freedom IS usually expensive, and often painful because someone concerned with freedom will sacrifice it only when the need is very strong.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

What I and others have proposed is the use of existing laws and the extension of some things like NWZs to control the reckless behavior that is the root of the problem on the lake and will not be significantly addressed by a speed limit because most of the bad behavior happens at speeds slower than 45 MPH. Education about the existing rules and better enforcement via better supported MP services is also essential.

05-03-2005, 08:44 AM	#1
Cal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pitman , NJ Posts: 627 Thanks: 40 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	This same story transpired in New Jersey last year after a high ranking money man bought a mega mansion on the water at the Jersey shore. He didn't like the noise...so he pulled some strings and had a SL bill introduced for ALL TIDAL WATERS. This meant the entire ICW for the length of NJ plus rivers feeding it. There are NWZ's but nowhere is there 150' rule. The facts were presented calmly , orderly and precisely. The ruling was a couple more NWZ (with one in front of his house of course). Maryland also has crowded inland (tidal) waters. They put a bandaid on the problem by making some particularly busy areas NO WAKES on Sat.Sun and Holidays. So Tuesday morning when there is three other boats nearby you can buzz though these areas at any speed. Sat/Sun /Hol's when it's crowded , like Weirs Beach area , it's all NO WAKE. Certainly makes sense since these are also large "rafting" areas. This probably wouldn't work in NH since all of these posts have been totally one sided(me,me,me) and we all know who you are , don't we??? __________________ Paddle faster , I think I here banjos Last edited by Cal; 05-03-2005 at 05:44 PM.

05-03-2005, 01:26 PM	#4
Great Idea Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan gets it, Lake4life?????...... Prevention is key and the goal..... wiretaps??? What does that have to do with boats hurdling around a crowded lake at 90 plus. If only the live free or die really meant that...... often times it means " live free or die taking a few folks with me as a consequence of my selfish acts"...... Are we really "free" when we all as tax payers end up "paying" for this "freedom"? examples ...... no seat belt law, no helmet law and soon we will "pay" for no speed limit on Winni..... who do you think ultimately "pays" all the outrageous medical bills/court costs that are incurred not to mention the emotional toll on the family's when these freedom lovin folks bounce off a tree????? I wish it was that easy lake4life. Unfortunately often trying to protect the few idiots from themselves and utimately protecting the general public requires laws restricting the majority, an unfair yet neccessary result. Common sense would be preferrable yet unfortunately in very short supply. Last edited by Great Idea; 05-03-2005 at 01:30 PM.

05-03-2005, 02:29 PM	#5
PROPELLER Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 340 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gross Exaggeration Gross exaggeration of the alleged problems on Winnipesaukee are the biggest beef I have with some of the posts on this forum. Great Idea says the lake is crowded when in fact it is only crowded in 2-3 areas on weekends probably between 11am-3pm. The rest of the time & the rest of the lake are wide open. Apparently many of the posters have not boated in other areas of the lake or other areas beyond Winnipesaukee. Great Idea says boats are hurdling around the lake at 90 plus when in fact the the vast majority of high performance boats on Winnipesaukee are traveling between 50-60 mph. See Cals post previously where he says his most efficient speed is 50 mph. Unless you do something custom to some of these boats I don't think the Formulas, Bajas or Fountains being sold on this lake are capable of speeds beyond 70-75 WOT & 90% of the time they are not WOT. I took a ride on 38' Sonic in Ft. Lauderdale last year operated by a former professional racer. When I asked him how fast the boat would go on its best day in the best conditions he answered 70 mph tops. You can be passionate about what you believe, I respect that. But lets stop the gross exaggerations being used to try & prove a point or support a viewpoint.

05-03-2005, 03:32 PM	#7
Seaplane Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 664 Thanked 943 Times in 368 Posts	WinnFABS has gone off the edge... I have just received the propaganda mailing from WinnFABS in the mail. Interesting it was postmarked from "Suburban Maryland"...They got my name from the Long Island Land Owner's Association. I also know first hand that they have approached several, if not all, of the yacht clubs, condos and other organizations on the lake looking for endorsements for their speed limit efforts. This mailing is the biggest bunch of rubbish I have ever seen and they should be ashamed to have sent it. If I ever doubted my position on this issue (which I have not - I'm against it), this mailing would have rapidly pushed me to the other side. Referencing the Littlefield collision of what is happening to the lake is totally outrageous. Excessive speed was not even an issue in this case, yet they refer to this in an effort to support a speed limit. One thing I have not seen referenced too much in these posts is the existing Boater Education Certificate requirement. This was passed into law and requires an operator to learn the boating rules and laws as they now exist. The biggest violation I have seen on the lake by far is the 150' rule. Out of everything taught in the class, this seems to be the easiest to remember and abide by on the lake, yet it's the most violated. I've been on the lake a lot of years and it's not violated most often by go-fast boats, but rather seems to be most violated by personal watercraft and family bowrider operators with 5 kids, 3 dogs, and a tube strapped to the back of the boat. Some of these people really don't have a clue as to the rules or where they are going. I mean no offense to anyone, but again, I call it as I see it. Do some of the go-fast boats violate the rules? Yes, of course. But the arguments of "safety" made by WinnFABS don't just apply to the go-fast boats. A speed limit is NOT the answer and I will do my part to fight this. Enforce the laws as they now exist, don't write new laws thinking that they'll solve the problem - they won't.

05-03-2005, 04:54 PM	#8
Great Idea Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok....... Propeller, I will remind you of my "gross exaggeration" again when one of the 4 or 5 large Formula/Fountains/Donzi's or Cig's that race up and down the lake every weekend hit someone or one another at high speed....... Remember , its not a question of if but when. There are quite a few boats on Winni that will do 90 and even some that will exceed 100 to 110. You need to be out our way on Saturday or Sunday. On another note I have nothing to do with WinnFabs are whatever it is. My position comes from experience with large power boats and contact with those that make/race large power boats. Many of them feel as I do that these boats on Winni are silly. As for the arguement regarding the unfortunate accident in Merrideth applying to speed limits? Perhaps it does relate directly to the issue since that type of 36ft Baja would most likely never have been on the lake if a speed limit had existed..... chew on that. The very nature of the poor visibility in these boats due to the bow being high in the water and obstructing the drivers vision while bringing the boat on plane is a BIG reason as to why they don't belong on a congested lake.

05-03-2005, 02:50 PM	#6
lake4life Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 33 Thanks: 2 Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts	First off, the discussion is a law limiting the speed to 45 mph, not "90 plus." A lot of boats on the lake are capable of exceeding that and do not have speedometers. As I stated before in a previous post, a speed limit only goes after a symptom, not the problem. The problem is reckless and oblivious boat operators. If I am riding down the broads on my Sea Doo at 60 mph, I am being neither reckless nor oblivious. The means to protect people should be from better use of the ideas already in place. A NWZ near busy areas like the island choke-point near the Weirs would actually make the lake safer. If the cost of "paying" for this freedom is so great, why hasn't anyone brought up any facts or figures? As if there were hundreds of people dying on the lake every year.... please. By that logic, we should outlaw all motorcycles. Doesn't the public pay when someone messes themselves up on a machine that is known to be much more dangerous than a car, even if the accident wasn't their fault? Sorry, I think there's only so much we can do to protect people from themselves. Where do you think the cost of paying for enforcement will come from? The cost of the equipment, training, etc. Would that money be better used just putting more marine patrol on the lake to catch the reckless idiots already out there? Yes, there are idiots on the lake, but I think it's a mistake to rushing into a broadbase law without considering the much more viable alternatives.

05-03-2005, 07:12 PM	#10
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,496 Thanks: 221 Thanked 812 Times in 488 Posts	Bow lift again... Great Idea, the subject of bow lift has come up before on speed-related topics. The time to plane on a 36' Baja is 3.5 seconds at 16.5. The funny thing is that the data for this was posted by Fat Jack who advocates for the speed limit. My post previous to that said that the boat can do well under 30mph. I have driven numerous boats in my life, probably more than most on here and can honestly say that for a 36' boat to plane so quickly and at such a low speed is impressive and does not create a dangerous situation with the bow obstructing view unless the driver simply does not know what they are doing. In this case it points back to boater education. I think that it has been established many times over that there were reasons other than speed for the unfortunate Littlefield accident. The outcome probably would have been the same if he was in a cruiser or bowrider. Alcohol and boating do not mix, especially at night. Were you there? I wasn't. Only those there that night can attest to the true nature of the accident so will people please stop blaming speed for this when even MP and countless hours of professional accident reconstruction cannot attribute the accident to this??? The number of boats on Winni that approach the 90-100mph mark is very few. A few cat hulls and an occasional step hull might make it there but not many. I looked at a 38' Baja recently for sale and on its best day with 525's it is a 70mph boat. A far cry from 100mph.