Docks

DRH · 05-04-2005, 12:39 PM

I agree with ITD on all points, Nero. Perhaps "Just Sold" could comment on the effect a breakwater would have on a neighbor's property, but I doubt it would have any effect. Unless you need an "abutter waiver" from that neighbor to install a breakwater (or a new dock, for that matter) closer to your mutual property line than is allowed under the reg. (20' I believe), I wouldn't think their appeal would prevail. (I'm not a lawyer, however!

)

If the cost of a breakwater would be more than you want to spend, I'd at least go with a permanent dock. In a windy location with a 4,000 lb boat, I would feel much more confident knowing I had my boat secured to a permanent dock, especially since you indicated you could be away for extended periods. A well-built permanent dock requires fairly little upkeep. We had our dock built 11 years ago and it's in excellent condition with virtually no upkeep other than an annual checking of the nuts and bolts that hold the dock posts to the outside stringers.

We run an ice-eater in the winter. It's on both a thermostat and a timer, so 1) it only runs when the air temp. is below freezing and 2) it only runs during the hours I set the timer for. We figure the ice-eater adds about $50 to our electrical bill in each of Jan. and Feb, and maybe $25 in Mar. The ice-eater provides sufficient open water to allow the ice to expand and contract, and rise and fall, without damaging the dock. In our 11 years here we only had ice damage once, three years ago when the ice started moving around while it was still about 12" thick and a north wind blew a large section of it in against the end of the dock. That pushed the two end pilings in a bit, but the repair was not expensive.

codeman671 · 05-04-2005, 07:51 PM

Nero,

DES does not readily give out break waters without having ample information proving need so it sounds to me like it would be the way to go. I can't imagine that it would obstruct a neighbors view or pose a nuisance. What do they have for a docking setup? I am personally going permanent, the crankups are a neat design but I have heard that you can get some bounce and sway in rough water, but they can be anchored down to avoid this. Shop your quotes hard on the permanent dock and breakwater, I had a pretty serious fluctuation in quotes between contractors.

ApS · 05-04-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Shop your quotes hard on the permanent dock and breakwater, I had a pretty serious fluctuation in quotes between contractors.

This is good advice.

According to a neighbor who has one, one consideration is that breakwaters will settle into the lake. Winter ice will shift them around and knock off some of the rocks. Either way, they're not maintenance-free.

Another is that the breakwater will build up sand mostly on the side that's exposed to the prevailing wind (which is NW).

If your neighbors are upwind to your proposed breakwater, they should be concerned: They will lose (or have to periodically dredge) clearance under their boat. Wave action around breakwaters tend to erode both your neighbors' shorelines.

This means that towards the end of each season, when the lake level goes down "naturally", there will be less depth in which your boat can clear the bottom. If you get monster wakes in your locale, and the bottom is a rock ledge, you'll definitely need a breakwater to prevent damage to the bottom of your boat.

Monster wakes caused me to inquire about a breakwater. The contractor told me I'd have to remove my existing permanent dock, which I am unwilling to do. (So I'm stuck).

Just Sold · 05-04-2005, 09:31 PM

Thanks DRH for the confidence in my expreiences.

In response to Nero Gatto's questions:
I have only heard of a neighbors view being reduced by an abutters construction of say a second floor addition. That would be addressed in a Planning or Zoning Board of Adjustment hearing or meeting. I have never heard of a dock or breakwater causing a reduced view to an abutter. It could be they are concerned with a change in water flow along the shoreline. From my limited understanding of breakwater construction the breakwater must be a specific minimum distance from shore so as to not cause the water to stop its natural flow along the shoreline. A side benifit can be a sandy bottom will appear over time as the breakwater does act a filter and causes sand to be deposited on the inside of the dock area.

What is their actual complaint in the appeal? Knowing that would help you and all of us here understand the situation better and comment more effectively. Also what part of the lake are you on that caused the previous owner to apply for a breakwater permit?

My personal experience with a breakwater is they are needed in specific locations and since you have received approval from the state for a breakwater I would install it. On an extremely rough day on the lake a breakwater can be your saving grace when docking and in the protection of your 4000LB boat. The cost may be high but the potential loss of your boat or even worse an injury or death make a breakwaters protection invaluable.

I spent a few summers at Rattlesnake on the broads side and without the breakwater we had I would not have been able to land at the dock. With the smaller boats (14' and then 17') I had many interesting docking experiences which would have been far more dangerous without the breakwater to protect us. We also had a larger heavy hull boat and it too would have been in trouble without the breakwater. The dock itself only experienced the tie post being damaged over the years. Today as I pass the property the dock and breakwater are still in good condition. I attribute that to quality workmanship so I would really check out who you hire for your work.

Nero Gatto · 05-05-2005, 09:29 AM

Wow, great info by all, thanks! I think I'm convinced that the breakwater is the way to go, assuming I can scratch the up pennies somewhere. I have gotten several quotes and there was a substantial difference in price.

I just learned that my abutter's first appeal has been rejected, so I'm less concerned about the legal side of it now. I would still like to be a good neighbor and alleviate their concerns if I can. They tell me they are concerned about what effect the structure will have on the wave and wind action and what the long term effect will be on their shore front. They are upwind (NW of me). Maybe I'm naive but I can't imagine how a sloped stone structure 3' off the water could effect the wind we get out there. My understanding is that since it will be constructed from irregular shaped rocks the waves will be dissipated. I doubt they will even be able to see the breakwater from their dock so I don't think view obstruction is a concern. The shore all around me is very rocky.

Acres per Second, I am surprised to hear your opinion about buildup on the NW side though. The permit application does state that "..some minor sedimentation will occur in the protected basin leeward of the breakwater...", but there is no sand to be found anywhere near me, just clean rock ledge wherever I can see, so I even find that hard to imagine. There is a 6' gap in the plan to account for flow (I assume that is a requirement) so I figured that would take care of any buildup on the upwind side, particularly since the structure would curve to the South.

Thanks for the opinions and experiences. Keep'em coming.

ApS · 05-06-2005, 08:20 PM

With the weekend weather looking gloomy and windy, I did a quick boating survey of forty breakwaters near me at noon today. Of the 40, 10 were of the "gap" variety, allowing a space between shore and the breakwater.

Instead of a six-foot gap, however, none exceeded three feet and one "gap" had been filled in (with small rocks) by the homeowner. (Not counted, and would have been #41).

Old homes that I knew from past years were of the non-gap design, so DES has likely instituted this change to the "gap" variety in recent years.

As to there not being any sand, my own dock area has been filled by sand originating from a neighbor's driveway that was washed away in a July 6th 2000 storm -- at 4:30PM. Sand fill from new construction near me has washed over a silt fence and also entered the lake -- upwind of me, and will be here soon enough.

But there is natural sand and soil continuously moving into the lake too -- and the prevailing winds move it. Sand is created even at the peaks of New Hampshire mountains and can be seen in pockets at the summit. Millennia of lightning strikes and ice fractures is supposed to account for it.

Here's more than anyone would want to know on the movement of sand along shorelines: http://www3.csc.noaa.gov/beachnouris...o/shorelin.htm

Another consideration in your breakwater design is to allow some space under your boat for up-and-down water movement. Large, long, waves will still produce motion in the protected area. Season-end depths may end up inadequate too.

If the bottom there is a rock ledge and you want to stay with a big boat, it may be possible to dynamite the ledge, which would simultaneously provide a supply of large boulders for the breakwater. (That was done for the Walgreen's boathouse and moat, and I think everybody around Winnipesaukee knew exactly when that was done).

I'd be curious as to the rate(s) and range of your estimates.

Nero Gatto · 05-09-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

If the bottom there is a rock ledge and you want to stay with a big boat, it may be possible to dynamite the ledge, which would simultaneously provide a supply of large boulders for the breakwater.

Fortunately, water depth is not an issue. I don't want to even think about the red tape involved in a project like that.

We also have lots of large rocks leftover from the blasting that was done to build the original house back in the sixties. The original owners actually tried to build a breakwater out of them on their own but the ice has done quite a number on that structure over the years.

SAMIAM · 05-07-2005, 07:32 AM

Tim if you have a section of your shore that has 2' or 3' of depth.....so can make your life easy.I ran a 30' dock/deck parallel to the shore with the posts fixed about 6' above the water line.Nothing is touching the water,so so don't need a wetlands permit or any of usual permits except one to build a deck. You don't need a circulator,a lift or anything else.It stays in all year round. You have to make sure that it is anchored well (mine has cement footings and pinned to a couple of boulders.
(sigh)...I so miss pulling out my dock every fall

fatlazyless · 05-07-2005, 08:09 AM

After lining up three strong guys and then having them not show up for maybe five years rnning, I said that's it, I'll do it myself. Now, all by my lonely self, I install and remove a 30' ,not-so-light,aluminum dock and boat lift w/ a winch roped to a convenient tree and some ten foot planks. AM I THE GREATEST, or WHAT? HUT, HUT, HUT!
Hey, no one ever accused me of being the brightest bulb on the tree, but it works for me, hmmmm.(sunglassed yellow face)

SIKSUKR · 05-09-2005, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

After lining up three strong guys and then having them not show up for maybe five years rnning, I said that's it, I'll do it myself. Now, all by my lonely self, I install and remove a 30' ,not-so-light,aluminum dock and boat lift w/ a winch roped to a convenient tree and some ten foot planks. AM I THE GREATEST, or WHAT? HUT, HUT, HUT!
Hey, no one ever accused me of being the brightest bulb on the tree, but it works for me, hmmmm.(sunglassed yellow face)

Hey FLL,how did you get a tree to grow 30 feet offshore so you could winch the docks back in the water in spring? SS

ApS · 05-09-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I ran a 30' dock/deck parallel to the shore with the posts fixed about 6' above the water line.Nothing is touching the water,so so don't need a wetlands permit or any of usual permits except one to build a deck. You don't need a circulator, a lift or anything else. It stays in all year round. You have to make sure that it is anchored well (mine has cement footings and pinned to a couple of boulders.
(sigh)...I so miss pulling out my dock every fall

Pretty neat design, though you don't state how old it is.

The DES regulations that shore things draws your attention to...may be newer than your "structure".

Photographs showing your dock's earliest years could assist in a possible painless "grandfathering".

.

05-04-2005, 12:39 PM	#1
DRH Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Meredith Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 1,212 Thanked 677 Times in 179 Posts	I agree with ITD on all points, Nero. Perhaps "Just Sold" could comment on the effect a breakwater would have on a neighbor's property, but I doubt it would have any effect. Unless you need an "abutter waiver" from that neighbor to install a breakwater (or a new dock, for that matter) closer to your mutual property line than is allowed under the reg. (20' I believe), I wouldn't think their appeal would prevail. (I'm not a lawyer, however! ) If the cost of a breakwater would be more than you want to spend, I'd at least go with a permanent dock. In a windy location with a 4,000 lb boat, I would feel much more confident knowing I had my boat secured to a permanent dock, especially since you indicated you could be away for extended periods. A well-built permanent dock requires fairly little upkeep. We had our dock built 11 years ago and it's in excellent condition with virtually no upkeep other than an annual checking of the nuts and bolts that hold the dock posts to the outside stringers. We run an ice-eater in the winter. It's on both a thermostat and a timer, so 1) it only runs when the air temp. is below freezing and 2) it only runs during the hours I set the timer for. We figure the ice-eater adds about $50 to our electrical bill in each of Jan. and Feb, and maybe $25 in Mar. The ice-eater provides sufficient open water to allow the ice to expand and contract, and rise and fall, without damaging the dock. In our 11 years here we only had ice damage once, three years ago when the ice started moving around while it was still about 12" thick and a north wind blew a large section of it in against the end of the dock. That pushed the two end pilings in a bit, but the repair was not expensive. __________________ DRH Last edited by DRH; 05-05-2005 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Fix Typo

05-05-2005, 09:29 AM	#5
Nero Gatto Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Breakwater Wow, great info by all, thanks! I think I'm convinced that the breakwater is the way to go, assuming I can scratch the up pennies somewhere. I have gotten several quotes and there was a substantial difference in price. I just learned that my abutter's first appeal has been rejected, so I'm less concerned about the legal side of it now. I would still like to be a good neighbor and alleviate their concerns if I can. They tell me they are concerned about what effect the structure will have on the wave and wind action and what the long term effect will be on their shore front. They are upwind (NW of me). Maybe I'm naive but I can't imagine how a sloped stone structure 3' off the water could effect the wind we get out there. My understanding is that since it will be constructed from irregular shaped rocks the waves will be dissipated. I doubt they will even be able to see the breakwater from their dock so I don't think view obstruction is a concern. The shore all around me is very rocky. Acres per Second, I am surprised to hear your opinion about buildup on the NW side though. The permit application does state that "..some minor sedimentation will occur in the protected basin leeward of the breakwater...", but there is no sand to be found anywhere near me, just clean rock ledge wherever I can see, so I even find that hard to imagine. There is a 6' gap in the plan to account for flow (I assume that is a requirement) so I figured that would take care of any buildup on the upwind side, particularly since the structure would curve to the South. Thanks for the opinions and experiences. Keep'em coming. __________________ Nero Gatto

05-06-2005, 08:20 PM	#6
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 6,040 Thanks: 2,281 Thanked 788 Times in 564 Posts	Dynamite idea. With the weekend weather looking gloomy and windy, I did a quick boating survey of forty breakwaters near me at noon today. Of the 40, 10 were of the "gap" variety, allowing a space between shore and the breakwater. Instead of a six-foot gap, however, none exceeded three feet and one "gap" had been filled in (with small rocks) by the homeowner. (Not counted, and would have been #41). Old homes that I knew from past years were of the non-gap design, so DES has likely instituted this change to the "gap" variety in recent years. As to there not being any sand, my own dock area has been filled by sand originating from a neighbor's driveway that was washed away in a July 6th 2000 storm -- at 4:30PM. Sand fill from new construction near me has washed over a silt fence and also entered the lake -- upwind of me, and will be here soon enough. But there is natural sand and soil continuously moving into the lake too -- and the prevailing winds move it. Sand is created even at the peaks of New Hampshire mountains and can be seen in pockets at the summit. Millennia of lightning strikes and ice fractures is supposed to account for it. Here's more than anyone would want to know on the movement of sand along shorelines: http://www3.csc.noaa.gov/beachnouris...o/shorelin.htm Another consideration in your breakwater design is to allow some space under your boat for up-and-down water movement. Large, long, waves will still produce motion in the protected area. Season-end depths may end up inadequate too. If the bottom there is a rock ledge and you want to stay with a big boat, it may be possible to dynamite the ledge, which would simultaneously provide a supply of large boulders for the breakwater. (That was done for the Walgreen's boathouse and moat, and I think everybody around Winnipesaukee knew exactly when that was done). I'd be curious as to the rate(s) and range of your estimates.

05-07-2005, 08:09 AM	#9
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,937 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 307 Thanked 1,057 Times in 770 Posts	no-show dock installers After lining up three strong guys and then having them not show up for maybe five years rnning, I said that's it, I'll do it myself. Now, all by my lonely self, I install and remove a 30' ,not-so-light,aluminum dock and boat lift w/ a winch roped to a convenient tree and some ten foot planks. AM I THE GREATEST, or WHAT? HUT, HUT, HUT! Hey, no one ever accused me of being the brightest bulb on the tree, but it works for me, hmmmm.(sunglassed yellow face)

05-04-2005, 07:51 PM	#2
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,552 Thanks: 222 Thanked 837 Times in 505 Posts	Nero, DES does not readily give out break waters without having ample information proving need so it sounds to me like it would be the way to go. I can't imagine that it would obstruct a neighbors view or pose a nuisance. What do they have for a docking setup? I am personally going permanent, the crankups are a neat design but I have heard that you can get some bounce and sway in rough water, but they can be anchored down to avoid this. Shop your quotes hard on the permanent dock and breakwater, I had a pretty serious fluctuation in quotes between contractors.

05-04-2005, 09:31 PM	#4
Just Sold Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Suncook, NH, but at The Lake at Heart Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 1,083 Thanked 434 Times in 210 Posts	Breakwaters and docks Thanks DRH for the confidence in my expreiences. In response to Nero Gatto's questions: I have only heard of a neighbors view being reduced by an abutters construction of say a second floor addition. That would be addressed in a Planning or Zoning Board of Adjustment hearing or meeting. I have never heard of a dock or breakwater causing a reduced view to an abutter. It could be they are concerned with a change in water flow along the shoreline. From my limited understanding of breakwater construction the breakwater must be a specific minimum distance from shore so as to not cause the water to stop its natural flow along the shoreline. A side benifit can be a sandy bottom will appear over time as the breakwater does act a filter and causes sand to be deposited on the inside of the dock area. What is their actual complaint in the appeal? Knowing that would help you and all of us here understand the situation better and comment more effectively. Also what part of the lake are you on that caused the previous owner to apply for a breakwater permit? My personal experience with a breakwater is they are needed in specific locations and since you have received approval from the state for a breakwater I would install it. On an extremely rough day on the lake a breakwater can be your saving grace when docking and in the protection of your 4000LB boat. The cost may be high but the potential loss of your boat or even worse an injury or death make a breakwaters protection invaluable. I spent a few summers at Rattlesnake on the broads side and without the breakwater we had I would not have been able to land at the dock. With the smaller boats (14' and then 17') I had many interesting docking experiences which would have been far more dangerous without the breakwater to protect us. We also had a larger heavy hull boat and it too would have been in trouble without the breakwater. The dock itself only experienced the tie post being damaged over the years. Today as I pass the property the dock and breakwater are still in good condition. I attribute that to quality workmanship so I would really check out who you hire for your work. __________________ Just Sold At the lake the stress of daily life just melts away. Pro Re Nata

05-07-2005, 07:32 AM	#8
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,924 Thanks: 350 Thanked 1,693 Times in 595 Posts	Tim if you have a section of your shore that has 2' or 3' of depth.....so can make your life easy.I ran a 30' dock/deck parallel to the shore with the posts fixed about 6' above the water line.Nothing is touching the water,so so don't need a wetlands permit or any of usual permits except one to build a deck. You don't need a circulator,a lift or anything else.It stays in all year round. You have to make sure that it is anchored well (mine has cement footings and pinned to a couple of boulders. (sigh)...I so miss pulling out my dock every fall