2 kayakers overturned in Meredith

[Mink Islander]

http://www.citizen.com/news/inter_la...9bb30f31a.html


I guess if you live in the "mile high" city too long your brain atrophies from lack of oxygen and you lose all common sense.

And the article says they didn't do anything wrong? How about the paddler without a life jacket?

[jrc]

The article says they didn't do anything illegal. He was in the kayak with a PFD and she was swimming without one. You don't legally need a PFD to swim.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. People have no common sense any more. Sure if you want to get a thrill, go ahead but don't expect other people to risk their lives to save you.

[Jeti]

Dude looks like a lady.......och

[jrc]

So reading Rebecca's page, I find that she is a "Professional Triathlete" which seems a little weird. Do people earn money in these races or does she not understand what the word professional means?

Anyway, I'm guessing she was swimming to maintain her training, not as a thrill seeker. Not that changes my opinion of her lack of common sense being out in that weather and putting the rescue workers at risk.

[Onshore]

There are some professionals that earn money, have sponsors, and endorsments.

[hazelnut]

There is always that nagging issue of putting rescuers in harms way I do understand that but...

Man oh man everyone is so judgmental of others these days. Most of us grew up with no seat belts, helmets, or any other safety precautions in moving vehicles that we have today. I bet many of us have jumped off a bridge into the water too. oh the horror. I don't know why I'm bothering to reply here because it will be met with anger and I'll be flamed, but it just struck me and I had to reply.
Ya know I'm one whom gets a thrill watching the snowmobiles skim water. I know I know if they go in the rescuers have to go after them. Remember a few years back those kids that skimmed their sleds in the summer all the way down the bay? I though that was pretty awesome. I know I know someone could have gotten hurt etc.

Time to go wrap my kids in bubble wrap and put a helmet on them while they ride their plastic big wheels that are an inch off the ground. I'm sure someone has a link about a kid in Wyoming that is brain damaged from a big wheel accident so fear not my kids will be wearing their helmets. No bridge jumping for them. It'll probably be a felony by the time they are old enough to do it. I'll show them the pics of their daddy doing it.

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

There is always that nagging issue of putting rescuers in harms way I do understand that but...

Man oh man everyone is so judgmental of others these days. Most of us grew up with no seat belts, helmets, or any other safety precautions in moving vehicles that we have today. I bet many of us have jumped off a bridge into the water too. oh the horror. I don't know why I'm bothering to reply here because it will be met with anger and I'll be flamed, but it just struck me and I had to reply.
Ya know I'm one whom gets a thrill watching the snowmobiles skim water. I know I know if they go in the rescuers have to go after them. Remember a few years back those kids that skimmed their sleds in the summer all the way down the bay? I though that was pretty awesome. I know I know someone could have gotten hurt etc.

Time to go wrap my kids in bubble wrap and put a helmet on them while they ride their plastic big wheels that are an inch off the ground. I'm sure someone has a link about a kid in Wyoming that is brain damaged from a big wheel accident so fear not my kids will be wearing their helmets. No bridge jumping for them. It'll probably be a felony by the time they are old enough to do it. I'll show them the pics of their daddy doing it.

I agree, and rescue people are called that for that reason, but in all you have to admit it was pretty foolish thing to do

I heard of Westerly RI, going door to door before the hurrican for the evacuation and if you did not leave they made you sign a waiver understanding that no one would be coming to get you unless it was a simple removal. Kind of smart on thier end. I do not want to see people die, but sometimes you have to let people be responsible for their decisions.

[Newbiesaukee]

But Hazelnut, it seems for most folks, the "nagging issue" of putting the rescuers in harm's way is really the ONLY issue. I couldn't care less what others do with respect to their personal safety, I do make judgments when these decisions affect others.

And, as above, this was a really dumb thing to do.

[SIKSUKR]

All right, I'll chime in on this one. I think there is a big difference between having to rescue somebody that fell through the ice while skimming and helping somebody in warm waters in August. The rescue personnel would be well equipped with pfd's and a seaworthy boat and others to assist. Dealing with frozen waters through broken ice would rise to putting others at risk way more before this incident. fwiw

[jrc]

I don't think anyone is saying she should not be allowed to take the risk, she just needs to be responsible for the risks.

Dan (ishoot308) and others took a risk by staying on their islands during the storm, that's their right. But as the MP announced before the storm, they were on there own and rescue would be difficult and likely delayed until after the brunt of the storm.

Imagine some islander had a heart attack during the storm, the rescuers delayed their response and he died. Could the islander's family sue the rescuers? How about after Jimmy Sokolov gets a team of doctors to swear he would have lived if he had prompt attention?

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by jrc

I don't think anyone is saying she should not be allowed to take the risk, she just needs to be responsible for the risks.

Dan (ishoot308) and others took a risk by staying on their islands during the storm, that's their right. But as the MP announced before the storm, they were on there own and rescue would be difficult and likely delayed until after the brunt of the storm.

Imagine some islander had a heart attack during the storm, the rescuers delayed their response and he died. Could the islander's family sue the rescuers? How about after Jimmy Sokolov gets a team of doctors to swear he would have lived if he had prompt attention?

agree on this point as well, dammed if they do dammed if they do not. That is why I think the weather people and the govt make such a big deal out of these things becuase if they do not then there could be issues like this and they have come up before

This was a topic that was in great amount of discussion at my house yesterday because the coverage was just so over the top

[Newbiesaukee]

I agree the coverage was over the top,but blame that on the "necessity" of 24 hour coverage. The reality is that this was a potentially devastating situation and someone has to make the hard decisions.

The head of FEMA stated that they want to evacuate people "unnecessarily" 75 percent of the time and he is 100 per cent correct. This means 75per cent of he time someone will grumble about unnecessary inconvenience but 25 per cent of the time a lot of lives will be saved. Add to that the fact these decisions have to be made well before the best information is available. It all comes back to determining the risk versus the benefit in any decision.

A little off topic and a bit of a rant....but this is the Winnipesaukee Forum.

[RailroadJoe]

I don't think we had "rescuers" in the 40's and 50's, Must be some new government thing.

[Newbiesaukee]

I didn't realize there were no firemen or police in the old days.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

There is always that nagging issue of putting rescuers in harms way I do understand that but...

Man oh man everyone is so judgmental of others these days. Most of us grew up with no seat belts, helmets, or any other safety precautions in moving vehicles that we have today. I bet many of us have jumped off a bridge into the water too. oh the horror. I don't know why I'm bothering to reply here because it will be met with anger and I'll be flamed, but it just struck me and I had to reply.
Ya know I'm one whom gets a thrill watching the snowmobiles skim water. I know I know if they go in the rescuers have to go after them. Remember a few years back those kids that skimmed their sleds in the summer all the way down the bay? I though that was pretty awesome. I know I know someone could have gotten hurt etc.

Time to go wrap my kids in bubble wrap and put a helmet on them while they ride their plastic big wheels that are an inch off the ground. I'm sure someone has a link about a kid in Wyoming that is brain damaged from a big wheel accident so fear not my kids will be wearing their helmets. No bridge jumping for them. It'll probably be a felony by the time they are old enough to do it. I'll show them the pics of their daddy doing it.

...maybe off topic here, but you and I are on the same page. I love the way people line up so quickly to pass judgement.
By the way, as we were wearing no seat belts, we were being driven in cars with the windows rolled up, and ma and dad puffing away on ciggerettes, as we drove to McDonalds for lunch.
Parents may actually be arrested for doing such things these days.
Bubble wrap 'em, and teach them "all things politically correct". Oh yeah, well we're at it...don't keep score in soccer/little league games, tell them everybody wins, and everyone is so very special.

[RailroadJoe]

NEWBEE They were called police and firemen. When did we get to rescuers?

[hazelnut]

I think that the gene pool is getting watered down, that's the real problem here. We have way too much technology and way to much of a rapid response theses days and therefore we are not letting Darwinism run its course!

That statement does have a sliver of truth to it though.

Somebody here mentioned attorney and lawyers getting involved and that is the real tragedy here. The word liability comes up any time someone mentions anything fun! With every fun activity these issues arise and it's too bad.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

NEWBEE They were called police and firemen. When did we get to rescuers?

Well when I used the term I meant someone who rescued someone else. It could be a policeman or police woman, a fire fighter, a member of the Fish and Game rescue squad, a state trooper, or even just a good samaritan trying to help his fellow man. I really did not intend it to be a position in the goverment, just a name for someone who had rescued someone.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I bet many of us have jumped off a bridge into the water too.

You kinda missed the point, didn't you? No one rescued the kayakers because they were kayaking in a hurricane. They were rescued because they overturned -- which then put the rescuers at risk!

There are some dumb things that people do that they know they shouldn't do -- and when they do them, we can call those people dumb and stupid any time we want, because we're right. Here are a few things people shouldn't do:

1. Drive a boat -- while drunk -- real fast in a rainstorm in the dead of night. Why? Because you might run into an island and kill someone.
2. Go near the rail -- drunk -- on a stormy night on the Mt. Washington. Why? Because you might fall overboard and drown.
3. Go Kayaking in a hurricane. Why? Because you might over turn and have to be rescued because you don't have enough sense to make it to shore on your own.

Please note: Kayaking, driving a fast boat, and drinking while on the Mt. Washington aren't being questioned. Neither is jumping off a bridge. It's the circumstances. For example, here's the 4th really dumb thing to do:

4. Jumping off the Golden Gate bridge -- at night. Why? Because only 26 people have survived such a jump, while more than 1,200 have perished.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

You kinda missed the point, didn't you? No one rescued the kayakers because they were kayaking in a hurricane. They were rescued because they overturned -- which then put the rescuers at risk!

Which of the reports have you seen that say a kayak overturned? The links provided in this thread don't even say that the two people "rescued" were in distress. From the reports, it sounds like the only reason they were "rescued" is because someone called the Marine Patrol, concerned that they were kayaking in a hurricane (actually, a tropical storm, if that).

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

You kinda missed the point, didn't you? No one rescued the kayakers because they were kayaking in a hurricane. They were rescued because they overturned -- which then put the rescuers at risk!

There are some dumb things that people do that they know they shouldn't do -- and when they do them, we can call those people dumb and stupid any time we want, because we're right. Here are a few things people shouldn't do:

1. Drive a boat -- while drunk -- real fast in a rainstorm in the dead of night. Why? Because you might run into an island and kill someone.
2. Go near the rail -- drunk -- on a stormy night on the Mt. Washington. Why? Because you might fall overboard and drown.
3. Go Kayaking in a hurricane. Why? Because you might over turn and have to be rescued because you don't have enough sense to make it to shore on your own.

Please note: Kayaking, driving a fast boat, and drinking while on the Mt. Washington aren't being questioned. Neither is jumping off a bridge. It's the circumstances. For example, here's the 4th really dumb thing to do:

4. Jumping off the Golden Gate bridge -- at night. Why? Because only 26 people have survived such a jump, while more than 1,200 have perished.

Ok you can get off your high horse now. I think you missed the point. And another thing, everyone is acting like they were kayaking in the damn "Perfect Storm!!!". Get a grip I've seen bigger waves and stronger winds on a clear day in July. So tell me just how much "danger" the rescuers were in.

My original point stands. Get out the judgmental hats folks cuz we're all perfect. Oh and don't forget the bubble wrap.

I will add that this is not something I would do. I actually elected to stay off the island and we stayed home. My decision as I was worried that if something happened during then storm and we needed help It wouldn't have come very quickly. Also, I didn't feel that putting my family on a boat if we needed to go get help ourselves wouldn't be a wise decision.

My original post was aimed at all of the people that chime in and judge what others do based on little to no information. People also are quick to judge based on their own personal feelings of what is dangerous or not. We as a society have evolved to become smarter and more educated about safety. We have also begun to turn into nanny's and wuss'. My god it is sad.

Finally- it was not a hurricane. And by the time it got to the lake it was barely a tropical storm.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Ok you can get off your high horse now.

Some people say one can see more clearly from high horses. Just saying....

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Some people say one can see more clearly from high horses. Just saying....

That and soapboxes. . Haha

[ChocolateGypsy]

So I guess the lesson here would be:

If ever you plan to undertake doing something stupid, bring your own rescue crew.

And inform the local authorities in advance. So they can skip the 911 calls.

And it'll be just like the "old" days. (which wasn't that long ago.)

With that said, anybody wanna go climb Mt. Washington in January? I promise, it'll be FUN!!! (And we could be FAMOUS! They'll make a movie!)

[bkgoodman]

Did you see this? Today in Manchester:

Father and he 2 daughters dumped a Jet Ski on the Merrimack River. They were clinging for dear-life on the orange barriers right before the waterfall!

Frightening!



Video and story at:

http://www.wmur.com/news/29030610/detail.html

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by ChocolateGypsy

So I guess the lesson here would be:

If ever you plan to undertake doing something stupid, bring your own rescue crew.

And inform the local authorities in advance. So they can skip the 911 calls.

And it'll be just like the "old" days. (which wasn't that long ago.)

With that said, anybody wanna go climb Mt. Washington in January? I promise, it'll be FUN!!! (And we could be FAMOUS! They'll make a movie!)

Seriously. God forbid rescuers have to do their job. Everybody's always complaining about how they could careless about the people who take risk but are worried about the rescuers. They signed up to rescue. They know what they're risking themselves. That's great all of you are so perfect and would never take some risk in your life. Sometimes the risk is worth the reward, that's what I try and remember.

[LIforrelaxin]

Alright everyone step back from your keyboards and give this one a rest....

If you read the citizen article on the rescue... the lady was willing in the water, and so was the kayaker... neither where reported to be in distress... however someone watching from a distance called authorities, whom are required to respond... they responded... obviously gave the couple a ride back to shore.. and that is the end of the story....

There is no heroic rescue here... there is no reason for alarm... The Marine, Patrol responded because they felt it was safe to do so... As others have stated, I have seen much worse weather from a freak summer storm...

Now when someone goes skiing out of bounds and breaks a leg, or goes in the backwoods on a hike with out proper gear and get lost and have to be found, then we have negligence.. when there is negligence then there is a reason to get all hysterical about an idiot paying for a rescue.

Rescue workers are paid to rescue people... when two people are out in the water and apparently not worried about the situation, and a third party calls in the rescue workers, I am sorry, there is no reason to be calling the people involved irresponsible... and that they knowingly put people at risk... they didn't put anyone but themselves at risk... they broke no laws...

[ChocolateGypsy]

For the record, I just want to say that if anyone ever wonders whether or not they should call 911... if you're vacillating but feel even the slightest bit of concern... CALL 911!!!

I have it straight from the horses' mouths -- they would rather come out and check on the situation which turns out to be nothing than to show up at a point where nothing can be done!

We're just discussing the stupidity factor here...
Like taking a hike in the desert and not telling anyone where you are going and when you plan to be back -- only to end up getting pinned by a boulder and having to cut your hand off to survive. The only thing that could've made it worse is if one of the people searching for him had been crushed and killed by another boulder.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ChocolateGypsy

For the record, I just want to say that if anyone ever wonders whether or not they should call 911... if you're vacillating but feel even the slightest bit of concern... CALL 911!!!

I have it straight from the horses' mouths -- they would rather come out and check on the situation which turns out to be nothing than to show up at a point where nothing can be done!

We're just discussing the stupidity factor here...
Like taking a hike in the desert and not telling anyone where you are going and when you plan to be back -- only to end up getting pinned by a boulder and having to cut your hand off to survive. The only thing that could've made it worse is if one of the people searching for him had been crushed and killed by another boulder.

Indeed 911 is there for a reason... and rescuers do have to use there own judgement if they believe the situation is too risky for them to respond. Such as the story is here... People where notified that response was not going to be immediate if at all during the height of the storm... Obviously the Marine Patrol didn't feel as though they where in danger when they set out.

[ushaggerb]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Ok you can get off your high horse now. I think you missed the point. And another thing, everyone is acting like they were kayaking in the damn "Perfect Storm!!!". Get a grip I've seen bigger waves and stronger winds on a clear day in July. So tell me just how much "danger" the rescuers were in.

My original point stands. Get out the judgmental hats folks cuz we're all perfect. Oh and don't forget the bubble wrap.

I will add that this is not something I would do. I actually elected to stay off the island and we stayed home. My decision as I was worried that if something happened during then storm and we needed help It wouldn't have come very quickly. Also, I didn't feel that putting my family on a boat if we needed to go get help ourselves wouldn't be a wise decision.

My original post was aimed at all of the people that chime in and judge what others do based on little to no information. People also are quick to judge based on their own personal feelings of what is dangerous or not. We as a society have evolved to become smarter and more educated about safety. We have also begun to turn into nanny's and wuss'. My god it is sad.

Finally- it was not a hurricane. And by the time it got to the lake it was barely a tropical storm.

I'm sorry you're being attacked like this. Yet I thought that there were some amazing insights that followed. You engaged people, got a conversation going. And that's a good thing.

I've got friends who go into surf that virtually nobody would go into. Even they know they're pushing their limits. Got friends who attack rock faces - technical climbing - that they know is pushing their limits. Others that go on whitewater that pushes their limits. I could go on and on about these enthusiasts. People ask: "Are these the stupidest or most courageous people in the world?" It depends on their awareness which I'll get to in a minute.

Plenty of these folks end up getting caught at one time or another in distress. Normally they're extremely humbled by what's happened. Some quit on it. Others lace up and go back and try it again. Some end up dead, but most of us take comfort in the fact that they went out the way they should have. I'm sure some could intellectualize about this sense of comfort and argue about it. I won't.

As for jumping off bridges, and the comment made earlier, bridge jumping off elevations higher than the Golden Gate is risky, but there are folks who love it. The people who jumped off the Golden Gate weren't stupid, they were horribly depressed. They wanted to die. I'm not sure that was the kayakers' goal. My guess is they didn't believe the day would end up in a distress call, nor were they so unthoughtful as to think, "well if we end up in a distress situation, we can count on a rescue team to get us out of it."

To your point that getting behind the wheel of a powerful vehicle, drunk, is stupid - and illegal - you're spot on. Were the kayakers over the legal limit?

If you really want to see someone putting themselves in harms way - completely or almost completely unaware - look no further than the next time they strap into a seat belt. Or maybe deep in the back of their minds they know better, but are they really aware (of what they're doing to their heart) when they blow their diet and add another pound to an already overweight body (Here I'm making a general reference to the 66% of Americans who qualify as overweight or obese). What's the level of awareness associated with each time someone smokes another cigarette?

I'm not against people testing their limits, and if in retrospect they were in way over their head, I generally find that almost all of them didn't intentionally put themself in that position. They weren't looking to die.

The point is, where some see stupidity, some see an opportunity to test themselves. Sometimes they misjudge the risks. But they had some level of awareness; they did try to judge the situation. My guess is the kayakers did too. Someone brought up the question as to how much information did someone have who went off on these kayakers. If that someone wasn't fully informed, even if they applied thought and reason, they're bordering on pre-judgement.

The thing is, I really do believe we all pre-judge every day. Being fully informed is tough. What I liked about your comment was that, even in the absence of complete information, it created a discussion filled with people's thought and reason.

Personally I see a guy on a 64' swell and wish I could do that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPxLs0Cv4zY

[ChocolateGypsy]

I get it that the kayakers were out there for training purposes -- you can't get conditions like that in any gym. And, giving them the benefit of a doubt, they probably notified the authorities in advance and the Marine patrol likely just went out for a look-see because of the call. The most likely reason they all made the news is because some reporter didn't do his/her "homework."

I felt it necessary to put the 911 reminder on the board because I've recently run into TOO MANY situations where people have hesitated to call -- it's usually the "old timers" who pre-date 911 in this area -- they "don't want to bother anyone about something that could be nothing" or want to "wait and see..."

As for the adventure seekers -- the competent ones take precautions. And when something unexpected happens... well that's what the rescue people are for.

When they were teens, my father and his brothers used to swim across a part of the Lake to an island that was a lot further away than it looked (at least 10 minutes by small outboard.) But many people have drowned in that same area over the years trying to do exactly the same thing. Children too. If I saw someone in the water doing the same thing today, I'd definitely call the marine patrol and tell them to haul that idiot out of the water before he/she drowns... or sets a bad example.