Dock Damage

NoBozo · 06-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgilfert

This is all extremely helpful information and guidance...thanks to all who posted! I'll be out to the island Friday afternoon for the weekend and will start to get some weight placed out on the dock

I believe you said the dock is Cantilevered. That means there are NO Legs under it to support Extra weight. Extra weight may be counter productive.

Just wonderin.. NB

rgilfert · 06-06-2012, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I believe you said the dock is Cantilevered. That means there are NO Legs under it to support Extra weight. Extra weight may be counter productive.

Just wonderin.. NB

Arrrgh! Good thinking........I hadn't thought of that!

ishoot308 · 06-06-2012, 03:17 PM

We recently replaced all the sections of our old wooden plank removable dock boards on one of our finger docks with composite. One of the benefits of composite is it does not float so it should stay in place better should the water rise above it. It's a little heavier than wood so each section is one piece smaller than the wood section was to reduce the weight when removing for the winter.

If you ever need to replace your removable dock boards, this may be something you want to think about.

Dan

tis · 06-06-2012, 03:31 PM

The only trouble with the composite is it can mold. We went to all plastic.

NoBozo · 06-06-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgilfert

Arrrgh! Good thinking........I hadn't thought of that!

Was there a particular reason Why the dock was built as a Cantilever design..? Is the water at the end of the dock VERY deep..or was it done that way for Permitting reasons. Can you describe the construction..How is the inboard end anchored..? Are the major structural members (Not the decking) made of Wood, Aluminum, or Steel..?

NB

rgilfert · 06-07-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Was there a particular reason Why the dock was built as a Cantilever design..? Is the water at the end of the dock VERY deep..or was it done that way for Permitting reasons. Can you describe the construction..How is the inboard end anchored..? Are the major structural members (Not the decking) made of Wood, Aluminum, or Steel..?

NB

NoBozo...I don't know the reason that the dock was built with a cantilever design. I've only owned the place since mid last Sept. For Rattlesnake the water in front of our property is surprisingly shallow (we have a 45' breakwater and the water at the end is only 4.5' deep). I've only been in the water once since we bought the place (I dropped a 9/16" socket in the lake while installing dock cleats last fall and had to retrieve it)...but while in the water I noticed that there are three very large (approx 16" in diameter) sections of tree trunk projecting 4' out from the breakwater. Two 40' long 4" x 8"s run perpendicular on top of them with a 2" x 8" running parallel to them in the center. The dock decking is made up of 4' long 2" x 8" pressure treated dimension lumber on top of the 3 rows of "joists". I do not know for sure how the 3 sections of tree are anchored in place.....I assume that they are imbedded in the breakwater (?). There are five verticle 4" x 6" x 6' posts that are lag bolted to the outside of the 4" x 8" rim joist. None of the posts touch the lake bottom and thus are not very sturdy (and actually move quite freely side-to-side). I intend to replace these posts this summer and secure the new ones with carriage bolts (versus lag bolts). Am I allowed to embed the new posts in the lake bottom...or is that prohibited for some reason?? BTW.....this photo was taken on 5/12/2012....and you can see that already the lake isn't that far below the dock!

Slickcraft · 06-07-2012, 07:22 AM

rgilfert, that looks just like our fixed dock, a common design. The three 16" dia tree sections are probably cut from telephone poles and are anchored in the breakwater. The 4X8 frame would have been bolted to the sections of telephone pole. The decking would be screwed down to the frame. Nothing will float away if it has not been dislodged by ice.

Our posts are attached to the frame with carriage bolts and they do sit on the bottom. We remove the end two posts for winter so moving ice does not grab them and damage the dock.

sluggo · 06-07-2012, 10:05 AM

To answer your question on the Cantilever desighn. When the breakwaters were built on the islands and main land areas years ago most people didnt have electricity. Also people didnt run circulators each winter to keep the ice from forming around the docks. So when the breakwaters were built they built in the Cantilever posts and built the docks over them so when the ice formed it had no direct contact with the docks. The tie off posting was installed so it was above the water line so that also could not be damaged by the ice. Now if you replace your posting and bring it down to the lake bottom and dont run a circulator the ice will tear if off the dock. Looking at the pictures its level and looks in pretty good shape. The Cantilever posting looks level and thats great since there part of the breakwater. If have any questions on how to maintain the dock you can have one of the local dock companys come out and tell you what you need to do.

NoBozo · 06-07-2012, 10:11 AM

rgilfert: That's a pretty solid looking dock. As Slickcraft mentioned, the uprights on HIS dock go right to the bottom. I have seen uprights on the dock where I stay during vacation, just like yours..ie Not touching the bottom..they also wobble more than I would like. In addition, they are only Nailed to the facia. I think the Idea is to be "Break Away" if the ice gets hold of them.

I would do like Slickcraft has done..fasten with carriage bolts..BUT I would Remove ALL the uprights in winter. (Circulators on rattlesnake probably are not practical because of power outages.)

With the uprights Solidly on the bottom you can add some weight to the deck to keep it from floating UP off the T-Phone poles...IF that were likely. I'll take a guess that the T-Phone poles are embedded in concrete beneath the stones, which would also help to hold the breakwater together as well.

NB

Slickcraft · 06-07-2012, 10:53 AM

By the way, I made an error is saying that I use carriage bolts to secure the posts to the 4X8 frame. In fact I use 5/8" galvanized hex head bolts so that they can be removed each fall after removing the decking strip next to each post. You will have to counter-sink the hex bolt heads on the outside of the post. Carriage bolts will lose their purchase making removal difficult.

Photo shows damage from ice sheet that came in from the south and took hold of the posts two years ago.

jmen24 · 06-07-2012, 10:59 AM

If the concern is that the water will lift the dock sections off the structural framing, then you can solve that by installing hurricane straps, linking each component to the next.

Any lumberyard will have them in stock. Long straps wrapped around the poles to the beams and then "hurricane clips" from the beams to each deck joist.

The hurricane clips you would need would be the H2.5AZ's or the H1's: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/H.asp

The strap for the pole to beam connections: could be as simple as a metal band wrapped around and attached at each end to the cross beams or a cable system. Just don't use eyelets that you would buy at the hardware store, they are not rated and will likely fail if tested by uplift (not likely given the pictures.

For the posts, I would not bed them in the lake bottom for reasons of ice damage and water saturation fatigue in the posts. If you are looking for a simple system that will add a structural element to them (for boat tie off) then I would suggest using these: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/dptz.asp Bolt the plates to your joists and use structural screws (GRK Screws)to anchor into the post. The beauty of this system is that you will have the ability to remove the posts without having to remove the carraige bolts (requires getting into the water). Use two connectors per post. You can paint these connectors black and it will add a nice clean and finished look to the install.

All hanger nails need to be rated Can't Sag Nails i.e. Joist hanger nails. Leave the common 8D's in the box for this project.

Also add your post padding to ensure that nothing is able to scratch up the boat.

Island Girl · 06-07-2012, 02:38 PM

I went by your dock yesterday... It is fine... Water is high here, though!

Rattlesnake Guy · 06-07-2012, 08:43 PM

At times like this, I wish my dock was as safe as your's is.

ApS · 06-08-2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmen24

(snipped)
"...Long straps wrapped around the poles to the beams and then "hurricane clips" from the beams to each deck joist..."

This dock had supporting 4x6s from the breakwater.

Telephone poles sound like a good upgrade.

fatlazyless · 06-08-2012, 08:01 AM

One way to get some telephone poles for free is to ask at the electric utility or telephone company for poles damaged by weather or automobile accident. Sometimes, they have these broken pieces of telephone poles left over from damages.

Steveo · 06-08-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

One way to get some telephone poles for free is to ask at the electric utility or telephone company for poles damaged by weather or automobile accident. Sometimes, they have these broken pieces of telephone poles left over from damages.

Just be careful that they are not poles treated with creosote or other preserving agents - not healthy for the lake.

LIforrelaxin · 06-08-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

One way to get some telephone poles for free is to ask at the electric utility or telephone company for poles damaged by weather or automobile accident. Sometimes, they have these broken pieces of telephone poles left over from damages.

I would not use polls from the telephone company, they are most definitely treated. Older one with creosote as mentioned. Other with new fangled treatment that are supposed to be more environmentally friendly but still harmful to the lake.

As for stability of post on the cantilever docks I have a few suggestions..

--- one if you plan on removing the posts every year as you should, you could always create a footing that you could put the end of the post in that sits on the lake bottom and is heavy enough to help stabilize things... remember however it most be removable from the water.

--- The second is to brace from the bottom of the post back up to the far side of the deck frame. This would be my preferred method....

CanisLupusArctos · 06-08-2012, 03:23 PM

The WeatherCam's site displays the latest lake level reading also. It's only the number and not a graph like Bizer, but it gives a basic idea of what's happening. Also, in the WeatherCam's view, when the water is calm, you can see only ONE tiny bit of Black Cat Shoals showing if the lake level is officially full. No rocks at all means it's above-full. More rock(s) and it's below-full.

06-07-2012, 07:22 AM	#7
Slickcraft Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Welch Island and The Taylor Community Posts: 3,313 Thanks: 1,232 Thanked 2,100 Times in 959 Posts	rgilfert, that looks just like our fixed dock, a common design. The three 16" dia tree sections are probably cut from telephone poles and are anchored in the breakwater. The 4X8 frame would have been bolted to the sections of telephone pole. The decking would be screwed down to the frame. Nothing will float away if it has not been dislodged by ice. Our posts are attached to the frame with carriage bolts and they do sit on the bottom. We remove the end two posts for winter so moving ice does not grab them and damage the dock. Attached Images Last edited by Slickcraft; 06-07-2012 at 07:37 AM. Reason: attach photo

06-07-2012, 10:53 AM	#10
Slickcraft Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Welch Island and The Taylor Community Posts: 3,313 Thanks: 1,232 Thanked 2,100 Times in 959 Posts	By the way, I made an error is saying that I use carriage bolts to secure the posts to the 4X8 frame. In fact I use 5/8" galvanized hex head bolts so that they can be removed each fall after removing the decking strip next to each post. You will have to counter-sink the hex bolt heads on the outside of the post. Carriage bolts will lose their purchase making removal difficult. Photo shows damage from ice sheet that came in from the south and took hold of the posts two years ago. Attached Images Last edited by Slickcraft; 06-07-2012 at 11:06 AM. Reason: add photo

06-07-2012, 02:38 PM	#12
Island Girl Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Central MA Posts: 2,352 Thanks: 18 Thanked 535 Times in 179 Posts	Dock is fine, rgilfert I went by your dock yesterday... It is fine... Water is high here, though! __________________ Island Girl ....... Make Lemonade

06-08-2012, 08:01 AM	#15
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,782 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,022 Times in 744 Posts	One way to get some telephone poles for free is to ask at the electric utility or telephone company for poles damaged by weather or automobile accident. Sometimes, they have these broken pieces of telephone poles left over from damages. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

06-06-2012, 03:17 PM	#3
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 6,302 Thanks: 2,404 Thanked 5,308 Times in 2,069 Posts	We recently replaced all the sections of our old wooden plank removable dock boards on one of our finger docks with composite. One of the benefits of composite is it does not float so it should stay in place better should the water rise above it. It's a little heavier than wood so each section is one piece smaller than the wood section was to reduce the weight when removing for the winter. If you ever need to replace your removable dock boards, this may be something you want to think about. Dan

06-06-2012, 03:31 PM	#4
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,765 Thanks: 753 Thanked 1,462 Times in 1,018 Posts	The only trouble with the composite is it can mold. We went to all plastic.

06-07-2012, 10:05 AM	#8
sluggo Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 170 Thanks: 13 Thanked 70 Times in 43 Posts	To answer your question on the Cantilever desighn. When the breakwaters were built on the islands and main land areas years ago most people didnt have electricity. Also people didnt run circulators each winter to keep the ice from forming around the docks. So when the breakwaters were built they built in the Cantilever posts and built the docks over them so when the ice formed it had no direct contact with the docks. The tie off posting was installed so it was above the water line so that also could not be damaged by the ice. Now if you replace your posting and bring it down to the lake bottom and dont run a circulator the ice will tear if off the dock. Looking at the pictures its level and looks in pretty good shape. The Cantilever posting looks level and thats great since there part of the breakwater. If have any questions on how to maintain the dock you can have one of the local dock companys come out and tell you what you need to do.

06-07-2012, 10:11 AM	#9
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	rgilfert: That's a pretty solid looking dock. As Slickcraft mentioned, the uprights on HIS dock go right to the bottom. I have seen uprights on the dock where I stay during vacation, just like yours..ie Not touching the bottom..they also wobble more than I would like. In addition, they are only Nailed to the facia. I think the Idea is to be "Break Away" if the ice gets hold of them. I would do like Slickcraft has done..fasten with carriage bolts..BUT I would Remove ALL the uprights in winter. (Circulators on rattlesnake probably are not practical because of power outages.) With the uprights Solidly on the bottom you can add some weight to the deck to keep it from floating UP off the T-Phone poles...IF that were likely. I'll take a guess that the T-Phone poles are embedded in concrete beneath the stones, which would also help to hold the breakwater together as well. NB

06-07-2012, 10:59 AM	#11
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	If the concern is that the water will lift the dock sections off the structural framing, then you can solve that by installing hurricane straps, linking each component to the next. Any lumberyard will have them in stock. Long straps wrapped around the poles to the beams and then "hurricane clips" from the beams to each deck joist. The hurricane clips you would need would be the H2.5AZ's or the H1's: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/H.asp The strap for the pole to beam connections: could be as simple as a metal band wrapped around and attached at each end to the cross beams or a cable system. Just don't use eyelets that you would buy at the hardware store, they are not rated and will likely fail if tested by uplift (not likely given the pictures. For the posts, I would not bed them in the lake bottom for reasons of ice damage and water saturation fatigue in the posts. If you are looking for a simple system that will add a structural element to them (for boat tie off) then I would suggest using these: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/dptz.asp Bolt the plates to your joists and use structural screws (GRK Screws)to anchor into the post. The beauty of this system is that you will have the ability to remove the posts without having to remove the carraige bolts (requires getting into the water). Use two connectors per post. You can paint these connectors black and it will add a nice clean and finished look to the install. All hanger nails need to be rated Can't Sag Nails i.e. Joist hanger nails. Leave the common 8D's in the box for this project. Also add your post padding to ensure that nothing is able to scratch up the boat.

The Following User Says Thank You to Island Girl For This Useful Post:
rgilfert (06-07-2012)

06-07-2012, 08:43 PM	#13
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	At times like this, I wish my dock was as safe as your's is.

06-08-2012, 03:23 PM	#18
CanisLupusArctos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,049 Thanks: 15 Thanked 472 Times in 107 Posts	The WeatherCam's site displays the latest lake level reading also. It's only the number and not a graph like Bizer, but it gives a basic idea of what's happening. Also, in the WeatherCam's view, when the water is calm, you can see only ONE tiny bit of Black Cat Shoals showing if the lake level is officially full. No rocks at all means it's above-full. More rock(s) and it's below-full.