What An Idiot!

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I am not making any assumptions.... I am taking Laser's story as told as fact. In what was his second or third post he called somebody an ***hole and insulted their manhood while telling a story that by his own words put him at fault for bad seamanship. Its not personal. It bothers me that people are quick to blame the Formula when in fact Laser is the guilty party.

I completely agree that by laserp's own description of slowing and turning, and then seeing the Formula that he did not maintain a proper watch. But you do assume the distance between the two was 150' or so, otherwise you assume there would have been a collision. You yourself state it's debatable. I guess the issue that I'm having with your point is that you seem to absolve the Formula of any wrongdoing. If I am incorrect I apologize.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I completely agree that by laserp's own description of slowing and turning, and then seeing the Formula that he did not maintain a proper watch. But you do assume the distance between the two was 150' or so, otherwise you assume there would have been a collision. You yourself state it's debatable. I guess the issue that I'm having with your point is that you seem to absolve the Formula of any wrongdoing. If I am incorrect I apologize.

Just explaining my math....

I am basing my assumption that the distance was approximately 150' or greater based on Lasers story...

1. That the Formula was 30 feet long. (That's the length Laser gave) So 150' is approximately 5 boat lengths. A 30' Formula depending on model weighs in somewhere between 9000 & 10000+ lbs.

2. The closing speeds.... Distance/Time. According to Laser the Formula was traveling at 30 MPH or 44 FPS (3.4 seconds to cover 150')
Initially Laser was traveling at 23 MPH or 33.7 FPS so we had a closure rate of only 7 MPH or 10.2 FPS.... no big deal.

BUT.... Laser slowed down and came off plane and turned to starboard crossing into the path of the Formula that he did not see. So now the closure rate jumps to whatever speed the Formula (that had already committed to overtaking Laser) was traveling. Per Laser's story 30 MPH or 44 FPS. This gives the Formula (an approximately 10,000lb boat) 3.4 seconds to avoid a collision. Most people have a reaction time of .3 seconds. At night I am sure its probably a little more especially when the Formula would not know of a course change by Laser until he saw his green bow light (Laser would have turned close to 22.5 degrees before the light would be shown). But using the easy math... the Formula had approximately 3.1 seconds to decide on a course of action, slow, change course to port and pass 20' to the rear of Laser's boat even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard into the path of the Formula.

3.1 seconds to miss by 20 feet.... In a 30' approximately 10,000lb boat. If there was less than 150' there probably would have been a collision.

Obviously we can debate hundreds of variables, but on the surface I stand by my calcs!

Woodsy

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Just explaining my math....

I am basing my assumption that the distance was approximately 150' or greater based on Lasers story...

1. That the Formula was 30 feet long. (That's the length Laser gave) So 150' is approximately 5 boat lengths. A 30' Formula depending on model weighs in somewhere between 9000 & 10000+ lbs.

2. The closing speeds.... Distance/Time. According to Laser the Formula was traveling at 30 MPH or 44 FPS (3.4 seconds to cover 150')
Initially Laser was traveling at 23 MPH or 33.7 FPS so we had a closure rate of only 7 MPH or 10.2 FPS.... no big deal.

BUT.... Laser slowed down and came off plane and turned to starboard crossing into the path of the Formula that he did not see. So now the closure rate jumps to whatever speed the Formula (that had already committed to overtaking Laser) was traveling. Per Laser's story 30 MPH or 44 FPS. This gives the Formula (an approximately 10,000lb boat) 3.4 seconds to avoid a collision. Most people have a reaction time of .3 seconds. At night I am sure its probably a little more especially when the Formula would not know of a course change by Laser until he saw his green bow light (Laser would have turned close to 22.5 degrees before the light would be shown). But using the easy math... the Formula had approximately 3.1 seconds to decide on a course of action, slow, change course to port and pass 20' to the rear of Laser's boat even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard into the path of the Formula.

3.1 seconds to miss by 20 feet.... In a 30' approximately 10,000lb boat. If there was less than 150' there probably would have been a collision.

Obviously we can debate hundreds of variables, but on the surface I stand by my calcs!

Woodsy

Well as you say, we can debate hundreds of variables. You're making assumptions which I'm uncomfortable with.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Well as you say, we can debate hundreds of variables. You're making assumptions which I'm uncomfortable with.

What is uncomfortable? Using Laser's story as a basic math problem, The Formula missed by 20'... The numbers are pretty clear. I mean sure there is +/- a few feet in there. I explained the distance/time problem pretty clearly.

If you are saying the Formula was closer than 150' then he had even LESS time than 3.1 seconds to react.... making the driver of the Formula pretty amazing that he avoided a collision.

Please feel free to refute my math!

Don't get me wrong, I get that missing by 20' is a little scary. BUT that doesn't mean that person who missed was in the wrong.

Woodsy
Woodsy

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

What is uncomfortable? Using Laser's story as a basic math problem, The Formula missed by 20'... The numbers are pretty clear. I mean sure there is +/- a few feet in there. I explained the distance/time problem pretty clearly.

If you are saying the Formula was closer than 150' then he had even LESS time than 3.1 seconds to react.... making the driver of the Formula pretty amazing that he avoided a collision.

snip

Woodsy
Woodsy

That's where you and I differ greatly, when you consider the time delay to decide there is a problem, the time decide how to correct, the time it takes to turn the wheel to initiate a direction change and the latency time between a control input and boat reaction, the Formula was way to close for the speed and conditions. Had he maintained a greater distance during his pass all of your other points would be moot as he never would have gotten so close. The Formula driver had complete power to drive safer and pass in a way that this could have never happened. If he didn't learn his lesson this time then we may be reading about him someday. Ditto for lasep as there are many boat drivers like the Formula guy and his chance of one of them getting him is much higher if he turns before he looks.

[Woodsy]

ITD...

Had the Formula passed to port the point would be moot. Had Laser looked and seen the Formula the point would be moot. Had Laser not turned the point would be moot.

How much distance is required? The law says 150'...

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of as much room as possible. But I still fail to see how the Formula acted improperly. There was enough (just enough) for the Formula to maneuver and avoid Laser. The math I did pointed to a separation distance right around 150'. It could have been greater or less. Either way it was definitely close. BUT without the Formula's side of the story and the numbers being what they are (From Laser) I have a hard time saying the guy in Formula did anything wrong when we have Laser admitting to violating 2 laws....

Woodsy

[Capt. Quint]

Y'all know me. Know how I earn a livin'. I'll settle this debate for you, but it ain't gonna be easy. Bad debate. Not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. This debate, swallow you whole. Little shakin', little tenderizin', an' down you go. And we gotta do it quick, that'll bring back your other forum readers, put all your businesses on a payin' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief.

I'll analyze it for three, but I'll answer it and settle it, for ten. But you've gotta make up your minds and ante up. If you want to play it cheap, you can go round and round the whole winter. I don't want no volunteers, I don't want no mates, there's just too many captains on this lake. $10,000 for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn answer.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Capt. Quint

Y'all know me. Know how I earn a livin'. I'll settle this debate for you, but it ain't gonna be easy. Bad debate. Not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. This debate, swallow you whole. Little shakin', little tenderizin', an' down you go. And we gotta do it quick, that'll bring back your other forum readers, put all your businesses on a payin' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief.

I'll analyze it for three, but I'll answer it and settle it, for ten. But you've gotta make up your minds and ante up. If you want to play it cheap, you can go round and round the whole winter. I don't want no volunteers, I don't want no mates, there's just too many captains on this lake. $10,000 for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn answer.

There once was a man named Quint,
To the heart of the argument he wint
He said for a price,
He’d settle it nice,
But the answer will cost you a mint.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD...

Had the Formula passed to port the point would be moot. Had Laser looked and seen the Formula the point would be moot. Had Laser not turned the point would be moot.

How much distance is required? The law says 150'...

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of as much room as possible. But I still fail to see how the Formula acted improperly. There was enough (just enough) for the Formula to maneuver and avoid Laser. The math I did pointed to a separation distance right around 150'. It could have been greater or less. Either way it was definitely close. BUT without the Formula's side of the story and the numbers being what they are (From Laser) I have a hard time saying the guy in Formula did anything wrong when we have Laser admitting to violating 2 laws....

Woodsy

Two laws??? I don't think so, but it doesn't matter and we are not going to agree on these points, as I said, I'll be watching for those who think that the Formula guy had no fault in this. You have also ignored the fact the laserp said he was 150 feet from a mooring field and the Formula was going to pass between Laserp and the field, that is definitely not legal and breaks the 150 foot law twice....

So I don't agree with laserp making fun of formula owners' junk, and I think laserp probably was as irate as the formula guy in their confrontation after the near miss, but I get the feeling you are defending this guy because of the boat he drives.....

[laserp]

Originally Posted by ITD

Two laws??? I don't think so, but it doesn't matter and we are not going to agree on these points, as I said, I'll be watching for those who think that the Formula guy had no fault in this. You have also ignored the fact the laserp said he was 150 feet from a mooring field and the Formula was going to pass between Laserp and the field, that is definitely not legal and breaks the 150 foot law twice....

So I don't agree with laserp making fun of formula owners' junk, and I think laserp probably was as irate as the formula guy in their confrontation after the near miss, but I get the feeling you are defending this guy because of the boat he drives.....

WOW! Been away for 10 days over seas, missed all this. I can't read it all now, but get the gist. Yes I was irate! Yes I failed to look behind me at the time I made a maneuver. That won't happen again. Yes the other guy was speeding, maybe 40 plus. He passed me within 20ft like I was standing still. Yes he was going to pass me on the starboard side, while I was 150 feet away from moored boats in a marina. I was still on plain maybe doing 20 when I saw him. I probably started pulling back on my throttle and maybe traveled 20 ft off my heading, it may have been 5 seconds...that's about it, from my change in speed and course. He was on a course to blow by me within 50 ft...at night. NO QUESTION. Put away your calculator and trust me on this one woodsie. Nothing personal taken.

OK - I did one thing wrong. Being stupid, I did not look behind me before I made a maneuver. I did look behind me minutes before and there was no boat in site, so my brain told me I was OK, thinking there is no way anyone could be anywhere near me. Never again.

The guy in the Formula was at fault, no question. My guess is he was looking elsewhere within those 5 seconds and not at the boat in front of him. Maybe he just didn't see me, I don't know.

What if I was stopping and turning because of something in the water, at night, that I couldn't see? a small boat, a log, a swimmer? Would it be my fault then?

I love Formula's I want one. I just see a lot of Formulas out there with a lot of power and it seems there is a higher percentage of them with irresponsible boaters in them.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by laserp

I just see a lot of Formulas out there with a lot of power and it seems there is a higher percentage of them with irresponsible boaters in them.

Huh? I take serious issue with this statement. Performance boat operators are by far the MOST responsible operators on this lake. Every bonehead, "irresponsible" move I see is made by someone operating a vessel other than a performance boat. Better re-think your claim.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Huh? I take serious issue with this statement. Performance boat operators are by far the MOST responsible operators on this lake. Every bonehead, "irresponsible" move I see is made by someone operating a vessel other than a performance boat. Better re-think your claim.

Yeah, this is where you are losing them laserp, better to say something like this: "I love Formulas and performance boat drivers in general, but this guy, he wasn't like those people, he must have just upgraded from a jet ski."


Ok, I'm kidding, just kidding I have 2 jet skis.

[laserp]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Huh? I take serious issue with this statement. Performance boat operators are by far the MOST responsible operators on this lake. Every bonehead, "irresponsible" move I see is made by someone operating a vessel other than a performance boat. Better re-think your claim.

OK - just one guy. The rest are spotless..

[ApS]

Les Hall of BoaterEd.com agrees with Woodsy.

http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic....06&whichpage=1

(Noted was that Florida uses the term, "Right of Way").

But Les Hall was the Concord, NH, skipper who asserted that "Lake Winnipesaukee was too small for 'performance boats'—go to the ocean, it's only an hour away."

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Huh? I take serious issue with this statement. Performance boat operators are by far the MOST responsible operators on this lake.

Just ask them...

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by ApS

Just ask them...

I did. Check the facts with Marine Patrol. I would put any amount of money on the fact that the "per-category" ratio of violations is far lower for performance boats that most if not all other classes of vessels on the lake. Probably the only class vessel with a lower rate of violations is the cabin cruiser class. You can put all the roll-eye icons in your reply that you want, but it won't change the facts.

[hazelnut]

Takes a big man to admit he made a mistake. Welcome back on the forum. And keep that head on a swivel, ya never know WHO you're almost gonna run into.

[tis]

That reminds me. Didn't someone post the stops made by MP in a summer? Where do you find that? Under MP? I was talking to some friends last night and we were wondering how many stops MP is making.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ApS

Just ask them...

Originally Posted by Little Bear

I did. Check the facts with Marine Patrol. I would put any amount of money on the fact that the "per-category" ratio of violations is far lower for performance boats that most if not all other classes of vessels on the lake. Probably the only class vessel with a lower rate of violations is the cabin cruiser class. You can put all the roll-eye icons in your reply that you want, but it won't change the facts.

Don't ask the Newbie MPs...



What follows is something seasoned MPs could tell you...



"Per-category ratio", recent Winnipesaukee history would argue against the previous assertion—not to mention that the "violations" to victims were mortal violations:

1. Wolfeboro —Donzi— 1 Victim
2. Diamond Is. —Formula— 1 Victim
3. Meredith —Baja— 1 Victim
4. Gilford —Cigarette— 3 Victims

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Don't ask the Newbie MPs...



What follows is something seasoned MPs could tell you...



"Per-category ratio", recent Winnipesaukee history would argue against the previous assertion—not to mention that the "violations" to victims were mortal violations:

1. Wolfeboro —Donzi— 1 Victim
2. Diamond Is. —Formula— 1 Victim
3. Meredith —Baja— 1 Victim
4. Gilford —Cigarette— 3 Victims

How about you list the rest of the "categories".
Sailboats
Canoes
Kayaks
Pontoon boats
PWCs
etc

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by ApS

Don't ask the Newbie MPs...



What follows is something seasoned MPs could tell you...



"Per-category ratio", recent Winnipesaukee history would argue against the previous assertion—not to mention that the "violations" to victims were mortal violations:

1. Wolfeboro —Donzi— 1 Victim
2. Diamond Is. —Formula— 1 Victim
3. Meredith —Baja— 1 Victim
4. Gilford —Cigarette— 3 Victims

As Chip said, how about the rest of the categories/victims? Just as a start, how about this one? Laconia - wakeboarding (probably not a performance boat) 1 victim

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...d-boataccident

Or this one: Gilford - Chaparral (collided with a Formula) - 4 victims

http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_235...h-that-hurt?so

APS, you can try spinning this all you want to mold it "your way" but getting back on the point of the original statement: there are few violations incurred by performance boaters.

[LIforrelaxin]

The truth of the mater is we can all find information to support our cause...

But if we look at the comprehensive statistic over the course of time is when we see the real picture.

I suggest reading some of these reports:

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...tatistics.aspx

These aren't some looking for support for their cause, but rather nation wide statistics provide by the coast guard... These are FACT....

Most importantly what I noted, after breezing through these is that smaller boats under 25' are the most prone to accidents... not the 25' to 35' high performance boats, that people seem to think don't have a place on the lake....

By the nature of economics bigger boats are more expensive... which means when you lay down the cash for a bigger boat, you are more likely to know what you are doing, as you don't want to make a foolish investment.

This summer I have had more issue, with bow riders and jet skis then I have any other type of boat... but I am not out trying to get them banned....

[Chaselady]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The truth of the mater is we can all find information to support our cause...

But if we look at the comprehensive statistic over the course of time is when we see the real picture.

I suggest reading some of these reports:

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...tatistics.aspx

These aren't some looking for support for their cause, but rather nation wide statistics provide by the coast guard... These are FACT....

Most importantly what I noted, after breezing through these is that smaller boats under 25' are the most prone to accidents... not the 25' to 35' high performance boats, that people seem to think don't have a place on the lake....

By the nature of economics bigger boats are more expensive... which means when you lay down the cash for a bigger boat, you are more likely to know what you are doing, as you don't want to make a foolish investment.

This summer I have had more issue, with bow riders and jet skis then I have any other type of boat... but I am not out trying to get them banned....

I agree with most of this...but not with the belief that people who buy the most expensive boats "know what they're doing"
I am amazed at the number of large, expensive boats that fly through the NWZ and on the wrong side of the markers in front of my house. How can you spend over 100 grand on a boat and not bother to either look at a chart or know what the rules are. Money does not equal brains.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Chaselady

I agree with most of this...but not with the belief that people who buy the most expensive boats "know what they're doing"
I am amazed at the number of large, expensive boats that fly through the NWZ and on the wrong side of the markers in front of my house. How can you spend over 100 grand on a boat and not bother to either look at a chart or know what the rules are. Money does not equal brains.

It's only the large, expensive boats that do this? Not the jet skis, not the bow riders, not the pontoon boats, not the bass boats, etc.

[Chaselady]

There are a lot of bad drivers out on the lake. I was trying to make the point that just because someone is driving an expensive boat doesn't guarantee they know what they're doing.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Chaselady

I agree with most of this...but not with the belief that people who buy the most expensive boats "know what they're doing"
I am amazed at the number of large, expensive boats that fly through the NWZ and on the wrong side of the markers in front of my house. How can you spend over 100 grand on a boat and not bother to either look at a chart or know what the rules are. Money does not equal brains.

If you are going to quote me don't take a snipet.... I stated

which means when you lay down the cash for a bigger boat, you are more likely to know what you are doing, as you don't want to make a foolish investment.

This doesn't imply that every person that own a big boat knows what they are doing... Certainly some people make the investment and shouldn't.... But no more so then you find with any other boats size...

Now what you have to stop and think about is what are the contributing factors to there being so many accidents with boats up to 25'

One of the biggest factors is the shear volume of boats in that size category...

my guess is if you looked at the percentage of accidents do to inexperience and lack of regard for rules, percentage wise boat size doesn't matter.....

The bottom line is people have associated reckless behavior in boating with a particular style of boat.... And that needs to stop... no boat is any more reckless or then any other style of boat...

What is reckless is the people operating the boats...

People need to stop pointing fingers at the style of boats, and realize what the problem is.......

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Huh? I take serious issue with this statement. Performance boat operators are by far the MOST responsible operators on this lake. Every bonehead, "irresponsible" move I see is made by someone operating a vessel other than a performance boat. Better re-think your claim.

I take serious issue with THIS statement. I thought I was the MOST responsible operator on this lake.....and I don't have a performance boat.

[BroadHopper]

Seems like a while ago pontoon skippers were the 'darlings' of the SL crowd. They could do no wrong. Just spend a weekend watching them come in and out of Thurston's on a busy day and you will beg to differ.

Two weekends ago, a pontoon was coming into the Weirs Channel at a pretty fast clip. I was going the opposite direction and the tritoon was practically traveling down the middle of the channel forcing traffic to move to the right. As I was next to the toon I wanted to say something and was shocked to see a kid about 12 years old at the helm! All the grownups on the toon weren't even paying attention?

Where are the marine patrol when you really need them????

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Orion

I take serious issue with THIS statement. I thought I was the MOST responsible operator on this lake.....and I don't have a performance boat.

You are the 2nd most responsible operator!

[laserp]

I'm new to this forum... seems like there are some very knowledgeable boaters here. I may have stepped out a little on the wrong foot, but was in a very bad mood at the time. I admit, I've learned a couple things already by reading here, so thanks. And apologies for my hull profiling comments, for those I may have flamed.
Laser

[Bear Island South]

Laserp - welcome!
I have been boating all my life, my dad made me take a boaters safety course when I was 12...I can honestly say, that I am guilty of some bonehead moves and probably used the middle finger a few times.
Anyway...$%it happens, we are human and can't all be perfect.
Enjoy the Lake!

[RANGER CANOE CO]

We can try All 219 pages CC regs
Maybe Bone up over the winter ? http://www.boatered.com/navrules.pdf
Interesting reading actually, Toot Toot

[Chaselady]

Originally Posted by laserp

WOW! Been away for 10 days over seas, missed all this. I can't read it all now, but get the gist. Yes I was irate! Yes I failed to look behind me at the time I made a maneuver. That won't happen again. Yes the other guy was speeding, maybe 40 plus. He passed me within 20ft like I was standing still. Yes he was going to pass me on the starboard side, while I was 150 feet away from moored boats in a marina. I was still on plain maybe doing 20 when I saw him. I probably started pulling back on my throttle and maybe traveled 20 ft off my heading, it may have been 5 seconds...that's about it, from my change in speed and course. He was on a course to blow by me within 50 ft...at night. NO QUESTION. Put away your calculator and trust me on this one woodsie. Nothing personal taken.

OK - I did one thing wrong. Being stupid, I did not look behind me before I made a maneuver. I did look behind me minutes before and there was no boat in site, so my brain told me I was OK, thinking there is no way anyone could be anywhere near me. Never again.

The guy in the Formula was at fault, no question. My guess is he was looking elsewhere within those 5 seconds and not at the boat in front of him. Maybe he just didn't see me, I don't know.

What if I was stopping and turning because of something in the water, at night, that I couldn't see? a small boat, a log, a swimmer? Would it be my fault then?

I love Formula's I want one. I just see a lot of Formulas out there with a lot of power and it seems there is a higher percentage of them with irresponsible boaters in them.

I am so glad you came back on...although it was really uncomfortable. There are a lot of idiots driving boats on this lake. They drive small boats, sailboats, pontoons, Bajas, and god forbid, even Formulas. And believe it or not, there are many that THINK they know all the rules of the lake, even though by their actions they obviously aren't right. And guess what?! Most of us ( myself included) have called someone an ***hole for an infraction.