Man Convicted in Fatal Boating Accident

chaseisland · 01-10-2014, 11:27 AM

Usually I like to keep my posts humorous, however I have some experience in the field of alcohol testing so thought I'd put some straight skinny out there.

1. MP do not carry evidential breath instruments onboard. They may have a PBT (pre-arrest breath test) instrument, but it does not comply with NH law to supply a preserved breath sample for the defense.

2. In serious accidents the charged individual cannot withdraw their consent to have a sample supplied. That is, a sample will be taken and they can't say no.

3. Obtaining a sample six hours after an incident is not all that unusual. True, the quicker the sample is obtained the easier it is for the state to prove their case.

4. Back calculation from a known BAC (blood alcohol concentration) is an easy calculation. The number of hours from the incident times 0.015BAC per hour plus the BAC at the time of the test will give an excellent approximation of the BAC. Yes, I agree it is an approximation.

5. If the state's expert is who I think she is, she can handle that calculation and all other pertinent questions.

6. There is no legal limit for a BAC level. It' called a "Prima facie" level and it means that on the basis of that number (0.08 BAC) lacking any strong rebuttal, then the trier of fact has to accept that evidence as true.

7. Now, IMO if you have one drink don't drive a boat or car, for you or your decisions are influenced in some manner. Ideally, a 0.00 BAC for all drivers is what would keep this question moot.

salty dog · 01-10-2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaseisland

Usually I like to keep my posts humorous, however I have some experience in the field of alcohol testing so thought I'd put some straight skinny out there.

1. MP do not carry evidential breath instruments onboard. They may have a PBT (pre-arrest breath test) instrument, but it does not comply with NH law to supply a preserved breath sample for the defense.

2. In serious accidents the charged individual cannot withdraw their consent to have a sample supplied. That is, a sample will be taken and they can't say no.

3. Obtaining a sample six hours after an incident is not all that unusual. True, the quicker the sample is obtained the easier it is for the state to prove their case.

4. Back calculation from a known BAC (blood alcohol concentration) is an easy calculation. The number of hours from the incident times 0.015BAC per hour plus the BAC at the time of the test will give an excellent approximation of the BAC. Yes, I agree it is an approximation.

5. If the state's expert is who I think she is, she can handle that calculation and all other pertinent questions.

6. There is no legal limit for a BAC level. It' called a "Prima facie" level and it means that on the basis of that number (0.08 BAC) lacking any strong rebuttal, then the trier of fact has to accept that evidence as true.

7. Now, IMO if you have one drink don't drive a boat or car, for you or your decisions are influenced in some manner. Ideally, a 0.00 BAC for all drivers is what would keep this question moot.

I'd like to comment on line 7. (and this is IMHO) At my age, alcohol even in small amounts, effects me much more so than it used to. Drinking on an empty stomach and certainly being out in the hot sun can heighten the effect of even one drink. I'll have a beer or wine after an afternoon on the lake back at the dock and can really feel the results quickly. We'll have a cooler along with some cold ones for quests, but for me, as the operator, never until we return home. It's my belief that some people would get behind the wheel of a boat after drinking but not behind the wheel of a car.

Orion · 01-10-2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salty dog

I'd like to comment on line 7. (and this is IMHO) At my age, alcohol even in small amounts, effects me much more so than it used to. Drinking on an empty stomach and certainly being out in the hot sun can heighten the effect of even one drink. I'll have a beer or wine after an afternoon on the lake back at the dock and can really feel the results quickly. We'll have a cooler along with some cold ones for quests, but for me, as the operator, never until we return home. It's my belief that some people would get behind the wheel of a boat after drinking but not behind the wheel of a car.

Everyone needs to honestly assess their own situation. Also the term "having a beer" can mean a lot of things. Grabbing a beer and drinking it down in a short amount of time is one thing. Sipping on a beer over a long period of time is quite another. It's a beverage and used properly can result in a negligible amount of alcohol in the blood with no discernible impairment. The body process alcohol over time (per the formula stated earlier) so as long as you remain below that....nothing. I know this is an emotional topic for some, and there are those that can't "honestly assess their own situation" for some reason, but each can decide their own path.

salty dog · 01-10-2014, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

Everyone needs to honestly assess their own situation. Also the term "having a beer" can mean a lot of things. Grabbing a beer and drinking it down in a short amount of time is one thing. Sipping on a beer over a long period of time is quite another. It's a beverage and used properly can result in a negligible amount of alcohol in the blood with no discernible impairment. The body process alcohol over time (per the formula stated earlier) so as long as you remain below that....nothing. I know this is an emotional topic for some, and there are those that can't "honestly assess their own situation" for some reason, but each can decide their own path.

Very true. The effect is different on everyone. I agree the key is the ability to honestly assess your own situation. Unfortunately there are some who cannot and some who just ignore it. Sadly the path they decide not only effects themselves but also other people.

BroadHopper · 01-10-2014, 02:53 PM

I think it should be mandatory to have a some sort of BAC analyzer on the patrol boats, instead of spending a lot of money on a certain 'gun'.

I have seen a forest ranger up along the Kanc a few years ago using one on a college age kid to evict him from the campground. You would think the marine patrol would have them as DUI on a boat is a very serious matter!

Orion · 01-10-2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I think it should be mandatory to have a some sort of BAC analyzer on the patrol boats, instead of spending a lot of money on a certain 'gun'.

I have seen a forest ranger up along the Kanc a few years ago using one on a college age kid to evict him from the campground. You would think the marine patrol would have them as DUI on a boat is a very serious matter!

You can't drink IN A CAMPGROUND?

.....and yes, DUI in a boat is a completely different matter.

Winnisquamguy · 01-11-2014, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salty dog

It's my belief that some people would get behind the wheel of a boat after drinking but not behind the wheel of a car.

So are you saying when people go out to dinner they don't have any wine, or a martini with their dinner or dessert? More people get behind the wheel of a car after drinking than they do a boat....JMHO

upthesaukee · 01-11-2014, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnisquamguy

So are you saying when people go out to dinner they don't have any wine, or a martini with their dinner or dessert? More people get behind the wheel of a car after drinking than they do a boat....JMHO

Interesting ideas from several people... I know that if I am out on the boat, or on the golf course, or at the beach, or after working in the yard on a hot day, etc., I tend to feel a little more tired and would likely be more affected by the consumption of alcohol. As such, if I drink at all, I would not have more than one drink before, during, and after dinner.

At the helm, behind the wheel, or hanging onto the handlebars (might as well get motorcycles into the mix), it is incumbent upon the operator to ensure that he is not impaired, thereby putting himself, his passengers, and others at risk.

There are far more cars on the road than boats on the water, at least here in NH, and I agree that more people drive after drinking in a car than a boat. The bottom line is we all need to ensure we don't operate under the influence.

polarisman14 · 01-11-2014, 11:48 AM

That was my friend Steve's cousin Brendan that had passed in the accident. He was a great guy, typical of these situations...It's never the piece of garbage that caused the ordeal to begin with. Good riddance to the convicted.

jeffk · 01-11-2014, 12:14 PM

If anything, driving in a boat should be more restrictive than driving a car because it is far more difficult. A car travels on a marked road, mostly straight ahead, has signs to help, and has (hopefully) no obstacles to avoid. A boat is operating in a 360 degree environment without any lines or signage to follow. There are all sorts of obstacles to avoid (shallow water, rocks, islands, slow moving boats, people). Driving at night in a boat is especially challenging. The shore lights are misleading and fog at night can make navigation impossible.

I also disagree with the idea that there is no effect of alcohol at low levels of consumption. There is a degradation of abilities with any amount of alcohol. It may be minor and manageable but don't fool yourself, it is there. And if your reaction time is slowed by 1/10 of a second will that matter? Usually not. But it might. Knowing your own reaction to alcohol and your current circumstance (tired, hungry) is very important.

My rule of thumb is to make sure time passes before I drive a boat. I will have a glass of wine at the beginning of a meal and take my time eating. After a couple of hours, the wine has been metabolized out of your system. No second glass!

secondcurve · 01-11-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffk

If anything, driving in a boat should be more restrictive than driving a car because it is far more difficult. A car travels on a marked road, mostly straight ahead, has signs to help, and has (hopefully) no obstacles to avoid. A boat is operating in a 360 degree environment without any lines or signage to follow. There are all sorts of obstacles to avoid (shallow water, rocks, islands, slow moving boats, people). Driving at night in a boat is especially challenging. The shore lights are misleading and fog at night can make navigation impossible.

I also disagree with the idea that there is no effect of alcohol at low levels of consumption. There is a degradation of abilities with any amount of alcohol. It may be minor and manageable but don't fool yourself, it is there. And if your reaction time is slowed by 1/10 of a second will that matter? Usually not. But it might. Knowing your own reaction to alcohol and your current circumstance (tired, hungry) is very important.

My rule of thumb is to make sure time passes before I drive a boat. I will have a glass of wine at the beginning of a meal and take my time eating. After a couple of hours, the wine has been metabolized out of your system. No second glass!

Agreed. Plus don't forget that the typical boater has far, far less experience operating his/her vessel than does the typical operator of a car.

Merrymeeting · 01-11-2014, 02:54 PM

There is also a difference in the type of operation. In my earlier post, I was referring to cruising at headway speed. I don't think I could ever name a time when I've driven my car at that speed for hours at a time. That's a much different scenario than one where I'd be pulling skiers, hauling many inexperienced passengers, or allowing folks to go swimming off the boat.

I live on the shoreline full time. I watch boats cruise by all the time, often talking to and waving to the operators. In all the years I've been on the lake, I'd say it's only about 1 in 100 trips where I think the operator is a bonehead or have a concern. My point is that we need to focus on rules and enforcement's that target the 1 in 100 boneheads, and not put in blanket rules that impact all 100 to try to catch the bonehead who will probably continue to be a problem anyway.

BroadHopper · 01-12-2014, 09:51 AM

After the last big fiasco involving boat safety the instigators told the legislature that now the law has past the lake is safe. So the legislature, thinking all is good robbed the marine patrol kitty thinking they are no longer needed. Because big bucks were spent on laser guns and the training to use it, there was little money spent on BAC test. So the whole concept has back fired and the boating population suffers even more bad publicity.

I have talked to my representative about this and he liked the idea of DUI enforcement on the lake. He would like to look into this and somehow make breath analyzer standard equipment on the patrol boats. Unfortunately the legislature has their hands full with ACA and Medicaid expansion.

MAXUM · 01-12-2014, 10:35 AM

This goes to show you that repeated attempts to legislate responsibility does not work. Sadly there is no way to way to have somebody with common sense looking over the shoulder of every person that doesn't and the law isn't a substitute for that but that's what it'll come down to. So what will probably happen is that yet again a knee jerk reaction will spawn an attempt to kill the open containers in boats, thus ruining it for everyone because a segment of the population is to stupid to show some self restraint.

Who will pay the ultimate price? Everyone.

01-10-2014, 02:53 PM	#5
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,599 Thanks: 3,237 Thanked 1,113 Times in 799 Posts	Bac I think it should be mandatory to have a some sort of BAC analyzer on the patrol boats, instead of spending a lot of money on a certain 'gun'. I have seen a forest ranger up along the Kanc a few years ago using one on a college age kid to evict him from the campground. You would think the marine patrol would have them as DUI on a boat is a very serious matter! __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

01-11-2014, 11:48 AM	#9
polarisman14 Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Gilmanton, NH Posts: 139 Thanks: 37 Thanked 23 Times in 20 Posts	That was my friend Steve's cousin Brendan that had passed in the accident. He was a great guy, typical of these situations...It's never the piece of garbage that caused the ordeal to begin with. Good riddance to the convicted. __________________ >>>Matt<<< To Tow: 2007 Honda Ridgeline RTL To Float: 1977 MFG Gypsy Star 17 O/B

01-12-2014, 09:51 AM	#13
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,599 Thanks: 3,237 Thanked 1,113 Times in 799 Posts	I agree with merrymeeting After the last big fiasco involving boat safety the instigators told the legislature that now the law has past the lake is safe. So the legislature, thinking all is good robbed the marine patrol kitty thinking they are no longer needed. Because big bucks were spent on laser guns and the training to use it, there was little money spent on BAC test. So the whole concept has back fired and the boating population suffers even more bad publicity. I have talked to my representative about this and he liked the idea of DUI enforcement on the lake. He would like to look into this and somehow make breath analyzer standard equipment on the patrol boats. Unfortunately the legislature has their hands full with ACA and Medicaid expansion. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

01-10-2014, 11:27 AM	#1
chaseisland Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 158 Thanks: 17 Thanked 68 Times in 44 Posts	Usually I like to keep my posts humorous, however I have some experience in the field of alcohol testing so thought I'd put some straight skinny out there. 1. MP do not carry evidential breath instruments onboard. They may have a PBT (pre-arrest breath test) instrument, but it does not comply with NH law to supply a preserved breath sample for the defense. 2. In serious accidents the charged individual cannot withdraw their consent to have a sample supplied. That is, a sample will be taken and they can't say no. 3. Obtaining a sample six hours after an incident is not all that unusual. True, the quicker the sample is obtained the easier it is for the state to prove their case. 4. Back calculation from a known BAC (blood alcohol concentration) is an easy calculation. The number of hours from the incident times 0.015BAC per hour plus the BAC at the time of the test will give an excellent approximation of the BAC. Yes, I agree it is an approximation. 5. If the state's expert is who I think she is, she can handle that calculation and all other pertinent questions. 6. There is no legal limit for a BAC level. It' called a "Prima facie" level and it means that on the basis of that number (0.08 BAC) lacking any strong rebuttal, then the trier of fact has to accept that evidence as true. 7. Now, IMO if you have one drink don't drive a boat or car, for you or your decisions are influenced in some manner. Ideally, a 0.00 BAC for all drivers is what would keep this question moot.

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01-11-2014, 12:14 PM	#10
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,181 Thanks: 209 Thanked 446 Times in 258 Posts	If anything, driving in a boat should be more restrictive than driving a car because it is far more difficult. A car travels on a marked road, mostly straight ahead, has signs to help, and has (hopefully) no obstacles to avoid. A boat is operating in a 360 degree environment without any lines or signage to follow. There are all sorts of obstacles to avoid (shallow water, rocks, islands, slow moving boats, people). Driving at night in a boat is especially challenging. The shore lights are misleading and fog at night can make navigation impossible. I also disagree with the idea that there is no effect of alcohol at low levels of consumption. There is a degradation of abilities with any amount of alcohol. It may be minor and manageable but don't fool yourself, it is there. And if your reaction time is slowed by 1/10 of a second will that matter? Usually not. But it might. Knowing your own reaction to alcohol and your current circumstance (tired, hungry) is very important. My rule of thumb is to make sure time passes before I drive a boat. I will have a glass of wine at the beginning of a meal and take my time eating. After a couple of hours, the wine has been metabolized out of your system. No second glass!

01-11-2014, 02:54 PM	#12
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,226 Thanks: 304 Thanked 800 Times in 368 Posts	There is also a difference in the type of operation. In my earlier post, I was referring to cruising at headway speed. I don't think I could ever name a time when I've driven my car at that speed for hours at a time. That's a much different scenario than one where I'd be pulling skiers, hauling many inexperienced passengers, or allowing folks to go swimming off the boat. I live on the shoreline full time. I watch boats cruise by all the time, often talking to and waving to the operators. In all the years I've been on the lake, I'd say it's only about 1 in 100 trips where I think the operator is a bonehead or have a concern. My point is that we need to focus on rules and enforcement's that target the 1 in 100 boneheads, and not put in blanket rules that impact all 100 to try to catch the bonehead who will probably continue to be a problem anyway.

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01-12-2014, 10:35 AM	#14
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	This goes to show you that repeated attempts to legislate responsibility does not work. Sadly there is no way to way to have somebody with common sense looking over the shoulder of every person that doesn't and the law isn't a substitute for that but that's what it'll come down to. So what will probably happen is that yet again a knee jerk reaction will spawn an attempt to kill the open containers in boats, thus ruining it for everyone because a segment of the population is to stupid to show some self restraint. Who will pay the ultimate price? Everyone.

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