Will tragedy teach?

ITD · 10-03-2005, 04:41 PM

Something is just not right with this story. The Ethan Allen is a 40 ft tour boat capable of carrying 50 people. Another article talks about plastic seats that slid to one side when the boat rocked. The link given earlier quotes a former captain of the boat who stated that the boat would list to the left when fully loaded with passengers. I hope that the NTSB takes a long hard look at this accident and rules are changed if they need to be.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9569812/

WeirsBeachBoater · 10-03-2005, 05:18 PM

Engineers take superstructure height and weight, and also allow for passenger and equipment weight. Then they calculate how much ballast must be placed in the hull. One way of doing this is with ballast cement. Not to mention the weight of engines, fuel tanks and other equipment below decks to offset the equation. Could this happen here? I don't think so, although I think the former Judge Sewall might have been a candidate for a major incident, but that vessel is no longer on the lake.

beaner · 10-06-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I think the former Judge Sewall might have been a candidate for a major incident, but that vessel is no longer on the lake.

Hmm....the Judge Sewall was owned by the Wolfeboro Inn, right? Isn't it the same boat that is now known as Winnipesaukee Belle? If so, it's still on the lake.

Sunset Bob · 10-06-2005, 11:39 AM

The judge Seawall http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=500&page=6 and the Winipesaukee Belle are two differant boats. Baja-Mama photo http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=502&page=1

islandAl · 10-03-2005, 05:54 PM

From the article link posted by GWC
"Only Colorado, Indiana and New Hampshire require adults to wear life preservers when a boat is motion, said Melissa Savage of the National Conference of State Legislatures."

?? New Hampshire requires adults to wear lafe preservers when a boat is in motion?? Is this true for certain commercial boats? Never was asked to wear one when on the Mount.

Mee-n-Mac · 10-06-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandAl

From the article link posted by GWC
"Only Colorado, Indiana and New Hampshire require adults to wear life preservers when a boat is motion, said Melissa Savage of the National Conference of State Legislatures."

?? New Hampshire requires adults to wear life preservers when a boat is in motion?? Is this true for certain commercial boats? Never was asked to wear one when on the Mount.

As usual the news agencies have it wrong. There aren't any NH rules re: wearing of PFDs, except for small children. You must have an approved PFD, in proper condition, for each person onboard. I'm not sure about commercial vessels but in your pleasure boat the PFD must be "readily accessable" which means within arms length. The USCG has been pushing to have a "must wear" rule for boats under 20-ish feet but last I knew this hadn't passed.

RE: the incident on Lake George, there's something not making a lot of sense in what's been reported so far. Hard to believe the wake from a vessel, even at 98', would swamp the 40' boat, especially when both have been operating on that lake for some time. Overloading seems like the obvious primary cause but it would seem that the vessel had been operated this way many times in the past. Hard to believe the captain wouldn't have noticed it previously. Too soon to tell for sure ...

Boater · 10-06-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Overloading seems like the obvious primary cause

I heard on the news that the Ethan Allen was certified to carry 50 passengers and was carrying 48. The problem is that when the boat was built the weight per person used for the calculation was 140 lbs. per person. The official on the news report admitted that the average weight these days is much higher than 140. Yikes, that boat was seriously overloaded.

NightWing · 10-07-2005, 03:06 AM

Another point to consider is the boat was reportedly originally built with a canvas top, but the windows and fiberglass roof were add ons. There was also a report of lead bricks in the bow used for ballast.

codeman671 · 10-07-2005, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boater

I heard on the news that the Ethan Allen was certified to carry 50 passengers and was carrying 48. The problem is that when the boat was built the weight per person used for the calculation was 140 lbs. per person. The official on the news report admitted that the average weight these days is much higher than 140. Yikes, that boat was seriously overloaded.

The 140lb per person standard calculation was put in place at least 30+ years ago by the CG as an industry standard, it has been discussed numerous times about updating this but still seems to be overlooked. Too many trips to McDonalds over the years has made this obsolete. Maybe this will be the breaking point that will force the change. This not only affects commercial boats, it would affect every boat manufacturer in the market. Unfortunately even though going forward on new boats with an updated capacity spec it still does not fix all the used boats out there that are probably running over capacity frequently. A few weeks ago I overloaded my pontoon coming back from the island and after barely making it back I did the weight calculations and realized just how wrong the spec is. Most people see the rating for number of passengers and ignore the weight rating. All it takes is a few 200+ pounders to skew the capacity.

SOMEONEGOTCHA · 10-07-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

The 140lb per person standard calculation was put in place at least 30+ years ago by the CG as an industry standard, it has been discussed numerous times about updating this but still seems to be overlooked.

I hear everyone that is talking about being over weight because of old standards that are used for calculating what a boat/ship can hold. However I do not believe that has a single thing to do with this mishap as this cruise was made up of all elderly people some of which were in wheelchairs. One does not find many of the elderly over the 140 mark.

Mee-n-Mac · 10-07-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOMEONEGOTCHA

I hear everyone that is talking about being over weight because of old standards that are used for calculating what a boat/ship can hold. However I do not believe that has a single thing to do with this mishap as this cruise was made up of all elderly people some of which were in wheelchairs. One does not find many of the elderly over the 140 mark.

I would have thought so as well but according to http://www.freep.com/news/nw/accident6e_20051006.htm the average weight may have been over 170 lbs. Certainly if the analysis was properly done (and not some quickie beat the competing press job) the boat was overloaded. Also as mentioned above mods were made to the boat that could have affected the stability margin. I was surprised to read that the deck was raised/added. This is a major change (again if true). Lastly I was again surprised at how simplistic the state liscense re: load capacity was/is. Regardless of the Lbs/person issue, they simply use a rule of thumb for boat length and capacity, no real calculation of CG and stability. Given the ease and low cost of computing/solid modelling these days, this is perhaps one area of improvement to persue. Makes you wonder what calculations were done when the Mount was altered over the years.

Orion · 10-07-2005, 02:22 PM

There were indications that there were mostly un-anchored plastic chairs used for this load of people. That, coupled with the poor ability of many elderly to maintain their stability in a rocking boat situation, surely must have been the major contributing factor as that would easily cause the weight to shift rapidly to one side.

Mr. V · 10-08-2005, 01:27 PM

It will be interesting to see where Legal Blame is assigned for this tragedy, as that will determine who, if anyone, will have to pay the 20 Wrongful Death claims sure to follow (and who can blame the families?).

As we speak, you can rest assured that the insurer for the boat's owner is investigating with an eye toward finding some way to shift responsibility.

The use of plastic chairs which are not secured probably seals the Doom of the boat's owner, at least in part.

It would certainly seem to be foreseeable that the chairs (and those sitting on them) might move / shift, causing the boat to quickly become overloaded on one side; coupled to hitting a wave at the wrong angle, you have causation.

Perhaps the owner's insurance company will argue that the addition of the overhead cover made it top-heavy and prone to capsizing, and will then join the contractor and designer who did this modification as a party defendant.

Or there may be a cause we haven't heard of yet, such as the boat unknowingly had a leak and had taken on a lot of water.

Statistically, accidents will always happen, they cannot be totally eliminated, but one can only hope lessons will be learned from it.

ApS · 10-10-2005, 08:43 AM

Other boating sites are citing "smooth fixed wood benches", so I don't know about the plastic chairs mentioned. Perhaps some were added to seat the "extra" passengers. (?)

Wheelchairs couldn't have helped the situation. The other sites say that the Ethan Allen listed to port when filled with passengers.

It sounds like a lot of factors entered here:

1) Lots of passengers.
2) Listing to port with passengers -- at the dock.
3) Altered superstructure.
4) New heavier engine, and ballast added forward.
5) Port-sliding passengers (upon a starboard turn).
6) Wheelchairs sliding to port
7) Possible wake.
8) One crew member short

What hasn't been mentioned -- as yet -- is the possibility that the captain "gunned" the engine to address some circumstance (like meeting a wake at 90°).

That would have torqued the hull to port.

BTW: I have a photo of the Judge Sewall sunk in four feet of water.
I don't know how the swamping came about, but the boat has a floating yellow ring/collar around it, and the shoreline it's resting on is too shallow to have been on his normal route.

GWC... · 10-10-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

BTW: I have a photo of the Judge Sewall sunk in four feet of water.
I don't know how the swamping came about, but the boat has a floating yellow ring/collar around it, and the shoreline it's resting on is too shallow to have been on his normal route.

Does it look like these photos posted by Sunset Bob in Photopost?

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=512&page=3

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...sort=1&cat=512

ApS · 10-10-2005, 08:06 PM

Yup. That's the incident. (Except somebody photoshopped the yellow ring to the color white).

BTW: There's two new McMansions on that shore now -- both are for sale today. (For a total of five in-a-row for sale on that shore!)

GWC... · 02-05-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MICHAEL HILL and Jeff Karoub, Associated Press Writers

Captain, Owner Charged in Ferry Accident

QUEENSBURY, N.Y. - The captain of a boat that capsized in 2005 in upstate New York, killing 20 elderly tourists, and the cruise line owner were indicted Monday on criminal misdemeanor charges.

The federal board concluded last summer that the boat was dangerously unstable and should have carried only a quarter of the passengers even though the Ethan Allen was certified to carry 48 passengers plus two crew. Weight limits have since been modified.

Passenger capacity for the boat was calculated when it was manufactured in 1966, but modifications over the years made it less stable and capacity should have been slashed to 14 people, the NTSB reported.

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.js...05/578983.html

10-03-2005, 05:18 PM	#2
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	To answer the top heavy question Engineers take superstructure height and weight, and also allow for passenger and equipment weight. Then they calculate how much ballast must be placed in the hull. One way of doing this is with ballast cement. Not to mention the weight of engines, fuel tanks and other equipment below decks to offset the equation. Could this happen here? I don't think so, although I think the former Judge Sewall might have been a candidate for a major incident, but that vessel is no longer on the lake.

10-03-2005, 05:54 PM	#5
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	question on life preservers From the article link posted by GWC "Only Colorado, Indiana and New Hampshire require adults to wear life preservers when a boat is motion, said Melissa Savage of the National Conference of State Legislatures." ?? New Hampshire requires adults to wear lafe preservers when a boat is in motion?? Is this true for certain commercial boats? Never was asked to wear one when on the Mount.

10-07-2005, 02:22 PM	#12
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	It was the chairs There were indications that there were mostly un-anchored plastic chairs used for this load of people. That, coupled with the poor ability of many elderly to maintain their stability in a rocking boat situation, surely must have been the major contributing factor as that would easily cause the weight to shift rapidly to one side.

10-10-2005, 08:43 AM	#14
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,943 Thanks: 2,218 Thanked 779 Times in 555 Posts	The Judge Sewall sank once. Other boating sites are citing "smooth fixed wood benches", so I don't know about the plastic chairs mentioned. Perhaps some were added to seat the "extra" passengers. (?) Wheelchairs couldn't have helped the situation. The other sites say that the Ethan Allen listed to port when filled with passengers. It sounds like a lot of factors entered here: 1) Lots of passengers. 2) Listing to port with passengers -- at the dock. 3) Altered superstructure. 4) New heavier engine, and ballast added forward. 5) Port-sliding passengers (upon a starboard turn). 6) Wheelchairs sliding to port 7) Possible wake. 8) One crew member short What hasn't been mentioned -- as yet -- is the possibility that the captain "gunned" the engine to address some circumstance (like meeting a wake at 90°). *That would have torqued the hull to port.* BTW: I have a photo of the Judge Sewall sunk in four feet of water. I don't know how the swamping came about, but the boat has a floating yellow ring/collar around it, and the shoreline it's resting on is too shallow to have been on his normal route.

10-03-2005, 04:41 PM	#1
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,936 Thanks: 478 Thanked 694 Times in 389 Posts	Something is just not right with this story. The Ethan Allen is a 40 ft tour boat capable of carrying 50 people. Another article talks about plastic seats that slid to one side when the boat rocked. The link given earlier quotes a former captain of the boat who stated that the boat would list to the left when fully loaded with passengers. I hope that the NTSB takes a long hard look at this accident and rules are changed if they need to be. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9569812/

10-06-2005, 11:39 AM	#4
Sunset Bob Deceased Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,701 Thanks: 115 Thanked 25 Times in 13 Posts	The judge Seawall http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=500&page=6 and the Winipesaukee Belle are two differant boats. Baja-Mama photo http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=502&page=1

10-07-2005, 03:06 AM	#8
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Another point to consider is the boat was reportedly originally built with a canvas top, but the windows and fiberglass roof were add ons. There was also a report of lead bricks in the bow used for ballast.

10-08-2005, 01:27 PM	#13
Mr. V Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: the left coast (Portland)and West Alton Posts: 1,415 Thanks: 65 Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts	It will be interesting to see where Legal Blame is assigned for this tragedy, as that will determine who, if anyone, will have to pay the 20 Wrongful Death claims sure to follow (and who can blame the families?). As we speak, you can rest assured that the insurer for the boat's owner is investigating with an eye toward finding some way to shift responsibility. The use of plastic chairs which are not secured probably seals the Doom of the boat's owner, at least in part. It would certainly seem to be foreseeable that the chairs (and those sitting on them) might move / shift, causing the boat to quickly become overloaded on one side; coupled to hitting a wave at the wrong angle, you have causation. Perhaps the owner's insurance company will argue that the addition of the overhead cover made it top-heavy and prone to capsizing, and will then join the contractor and designer who did this modification as a party defendant. Or there may be a cause we haven't heard of yet, such as the boat unknowingly had a leak and had taken on a lot of water. Statistically, accidents will always happen, they cannot be totally eliminated, but one can only hope lessons will be learned from it.

10-10-2005, 08:06 PM	#16
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,943 Thanks: 2,218 Thanked 779 Times in 555 Posts	Yup. That's the incident. (Except somebody photoshopped the yellow ring to the color white). BTW: There's two new McMansions on that shore now -- both are for sale today. (For a total of five in-a-row for sale on that shore!)