Building an Island Camp

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

We made sips for 8 years right here in my EPS plant.The sips you refer to are curtain wall sips made for post and beam construction.They can also be structural with osb on both sides sandwiched with eps in the middle.No P&B or framing.You would be amazed at the horizontal loads that can be carried with these.All our panels were made with wire chases cut into the foam.Still a challenge to wire if you need to chase through a different route.These houses are extremely air tight as there are no thermal breaks every 16 inches like traditional framed houses.On a lot of P&B jobs,one advantage was that the interior walls ARE finished.Drywall is part of the interior panel and we made some for the roofs that had T&G wood so after being placed they were done.

The structural SIPS are what I was recommending. They come pre-cut and ready to assemble with door and window openings already present. They would be light and easy to transport and assembly would go remarkably quickly.

If one was careful and clever in the design process, one could dramatically simplify and reduce costs for construction. Examples: Choose roof dimensions that allow you to use full-width standing seam roof panels. Ripping the last panel and bending the edge of it 90 degrees is a pain, and if symmetry is important to you, you'd need to do it on both gable ends of the house. The length of said panels is irrelevant as they can be ordered any length you choose up to 40 feet, if memory serves... Design the house such that all or at least the vast majority of the plumbing is located in one interior wall. Design the wall with opening panels so that plumbing repairs or changes can be done with ease. Choose house/room dimensions that take advantage of standard lumber lengths. Why make a house that forces you to waste 18" of every joist? That said, engineered joists would be a great choice (nice and light so easy to transport) and you can get those in any length you choose... Use engineered lumber (LVL/LSL) studs on any wall that is going to have cabinetry and be extra careful to install said joists plumb. Scribing cabinets is time consuming and tedious. The slight cost disadvantage of the perfectly straight studs will easily pay for itself when hanging cabinets.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Dave R

The structural SIPS are what I was recommending. They come pre-cut and ready to assemble with door and window openings already present. They would be light and easy to transport and assembly would go remarkably quickly.

If one was careful and clever in the design process, one could dramatically simplify and reduce costs for construction. Examples: Choose roof dimensions that allow you to use full-width standing seam roof panels. Ripping the last panel and bending the edge of it 90 degrees is a pain, and if symmetry is important to you, you'd need to do it on both gable ends of the house. The length of said panels is irrelevant as they can be ordered any length you choose up to 40 feet, if memory serves... Design the house such that all or at least the vast majority of the plumbing is located in one interior wall. Design the wall with opening panels so that plumbing repairs or changes can be done with ease. Choose house/room dimensions that take advantage of standard lumber lengths. Why make a house that forces you to waste 18" of every joist? That said, engineered joists would be a great choice (nice and light so easy to transport) and you can get those in any length you choose... Use engineered lumber (LVL/LSL) studs on any wall that is going to have cabinetry and be extra careful to install said joists plumb. Scribing cabinets is time consuming and tedious. The slight cost disadvantage of the perfectly straight studs will easily pay for itself when hanging cabinets.

Couple of things that you are not taking into consideration!

Use of full width standing seam panels will leave you with a gable detail that cannot be flashed properly. Those last bends serve a purpose. If you were interested in maximizing material, than plan for just under 7/8 worth of a full panel to finish; that will allow you to balance the spacing and use just less than 1/2 a panel at each gable, while maintaining the proper installation techniques.

Note the location of plumbing chases and cleanouts, but leave an exposed panel, not for me. Who wants to look at some half done panel screwed to the wall in the hallway. If your home is using wood for an interior wall covering, you can integrate an access panel in the installation and is more necessary, but sheetrock, no way. Planning on repairing plumbing means that you should have picked a better plumber! Granted, things happen, fittings fail, I have just never understood the mentality of having access panels all over the place. Cut the rock, repair the plumbing and patch it back to original.

The cost jump for using engineered studs for a cabinet wall will not cure your scribe problem. Cabinets need to be scribed to sheetrocked walls, because of the build up of mud at seams and corners. Using the straightest studs in the world will not prevent this, plus not scribing any form of millwork is just sloppy workmanship and it shows.

The cutting off of the end of a piece of lumber removes the checks that are caused during the drying process. Material today is grown so fast and processed so fast that it is really a wonder it holds its shape at all. You are not doing yourself any favors by not removing a minimum of 6" off each end of a large structural member. Studs are one thing, small member, vertical load. Joists and rafters are another animal all together. Having a deep check in the end of a floor joist is akin to cutting the bottom 3" out of a 2x10 to clear plumbing, you have just reduced the size of that entire member by 3", but left the additional weight that a now smaller member needs to carry; further compromising its integrity.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Couple of things that you are not taking into consideration!

Use of full width standing seam panels will leave you with a gable detail that cannot be flashed properly. Those last bends serve a purpose. If you were interested in maximizing material, than plan for just under 7/8 worth of a full panel to finish; that will allow you to balance the spacing and use just less than 1/2 a panel at each gable, while maintaining the proper installation techniques.

Note the location of plumbing chases and cleanouts, but leave an exposed panel, not for me. Who wants to look at some half done panel screwed to the wall in the hallway. If your home is using wood for an interior wall covering, you can integrate an access panel in the installation and is more necessary, but sheetrock, no way. Planning on repairing plumbing means that you should have picked a better plumber! Granted, things happen, fittings fail, I have just never understood the mentality of having access panels all over the place. Cut the rock, repair the plumbing and patch it back to original.

The cost jump for using engineered studs for a cabinet wall will not cure your scribe problem. Cabinets need to be scribed to sheetrocked walls, because of the build up of mud at seams and corners. Using the straightest studs in the world will not prevent this, plus not scribing any form of millwork is just sloppy workmanship and it shows.

The cutting off of the end of a piece of lumber removes the checks that are caused during the drying process. Material today is grown so fast and processed so fast that it is really a wonder it holds its shape at all. You are not doing yourself any favors by not removing a minimum of 6" off each end of a large structural member. Studs are one thing, small member, vertical load. Joists and rafters are another animal all together. Having a deep check in the end of a floor joist is akin to cutting the bottom 3" out of a 2x10 to clear plumbing, you have just reduced the size of that entire member by 3", but left the additional weight that a now smaller member needs to carry; further compromising its integrity.

I never meant design the roof so that it's a multiple of the width of the panels, I meant what I said, design the roof for full width panels. Doing so does not preclude flashing. If memory serves, my roof was (n x 16") + 2 1/8" to fit the panels and flashing without any hassle.

Plumbing chase access panels can be placed behind appliances and other places where no one would would notice. They don't have to be visible to be functional. That's how mine are.

The end of a floor joist is under almost no stress that would be affected by a check. It's only in compression and shares the load with a rim joist precisely where it;s needed most. It's the center of a joist span that's critical. Rafters are irrelevant in this regard because they have to be trimmed on both ends anyway. I still would recommend engineered lumber regardless, especially for an island camp. The light weight is a great advantage when moving it to the building lot.

A straight and plumb wall is vastly easier to scribe to than a wavy mess. I never said the cabinets would not have to be scribed, but I was not very clear about it either...

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I never meant design the roof so that it's a multiple of the width of the panels, I meant what I said, design the roof for full width panels. Doing so does not preclude flashing. If memory serves, my roof was (n x 16") + 2 1/8" to fit the panels and flashing without any hassle.

Plumbing chase access panels can be placed behind appliances and other places where no one would would notice. They don't have to be visible to be functional. That's how mine are.

The end of a floor joist is under almost no stress that would be affected by a check. It's only in compression and shares the load with a rim joist precisely where it;s needed most. It's the center of a joist span that's critical. Rafters are irrelevant in this regard because they have to be trimmed on both ends anyway. I still would recommend engineered lumber regardless, especially for an island camp. The light weight is a great advantage when moving it to the building lot.

A straight and plumb wall is vastly easier to scribe to than a wavy mess. I never said the cabinets would not have to be scribed, but I was not very clear about it either...

My point on the standing seam roofing was that the install requires that the starting and ending panels be crimped over a gable wall flashing piece (similar to what we call Rite Flow drip edge). That is not an optional bend, it is a part of the structural and flashing integrity of the roof. Unless you want to look at that huge 3-4" end detail that some companies offer, there is no way to avoid the end crimps. I am all for saving money and time, but not when it comes at a cost of form or function.

We will have to agree to disagree on the access panels.

The end of your floor joists are in fact under compression, but a check can cause the sheathing to heave and tile to crack. Not all joist ends are located under a wall with a rim joist attached to the end. If you are using KD floor joists than your spans are limited and you will likely have to split over a beam somewhere.

You and I are in agreement that Engineered Lumber is really the only option that should be considered for a floor system. Today's wood is absolutely terrible and compared to the engineered products, does not come close to integrity and design options. Plus they can be ordered by the foot!

I don't disagree that straight plumb walls are better, but a scribe is a scribe, the difference between removing the bulk of material with a power plane before moving to a hand plane to finish is a matter of a minute or two.

Its all good Dave R, I was not looking to cut your post down, your info was good, but in the wrong hands could create an impossible client. One that has no basis for the opinions they have on construction other than they read about it on the internet or because they read the current IBC, that they are now experts in construction standards. Not understanding that code is not a set standard, but a minimum standard.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Dave R

The structural SIPS are what I was recommending. They come pre-cut and ready to assemble with door and window openings already present. They would be light and easy to transport and assembly would go remarkably quickly.
.

Right on. We made them all. My point was that structural panels as well as curtain walls(non load bearing) can have finished interior surfaces as well. We made structural panels that were a sandwich of OSB-EPS-OSB-drywall or T&G pine, exterior to interior. All panels were precut for door and window openings as well as the wire chases being cut in the EPS before making the sandwich.

[Island Girl]

• Septic System
• Electricity
• Internet access
• Screened in porch (wonderful on rainy days)
• High quality sheets (who wants scratchy bed linens in paradise?)
• Storage, storage and more storage
• washer and dryer (I do not have these, and feel deprived)
• Trees for shade on hot days (don't cut them all down)
• For me the north exposure is wonderful, west is very hot (though the sunsets are nice)
• A View... ride around and pick the one you love.
• Understand the boat traffic in your chosen location and its impact on your desired lifestyle.

IG

[Mink Islander]

Good list. I'd only add a heating source. I have a kerosene monitor. Works great. With a well insulated house, it heats the whole place in the deep of winter. Have to know whether u want to use your place in the winter too and plan accordingly. I have heat, flushing toilets (hand filled) but no running water in winter. A dial up system to turn on the heat is particularly nice!

And put your living space towards the view and your bedrooms to the back.

[jazzman]

Good comment about understanding the boat traffic.

I was amazed one nice day when we took a boat ride over to the west side of lake in the Gilford/LSP area. It looked like route 128 with 3 lanes of traffic in each direction, yet there was no boat traffic at all by our house on Barn Door Island.

This past Sunday I was looking at the number of boats passing Clay Point... There was nothing close to us, but all those boats must have been passing quite close to places on the SE end of the island and Pipers Point.

The boat traffic is horrible between Sleeper Island and Alton too... Big cruisers coming through kind of 1/2 on a plane throwing up huge wakes.

I guess it also pays to know where the common sandbar / party areas are too. It's a whole different world when you're looking at one of them unless you only spend mid-week here.

There was a nice looking place on Sleeper Island looking towards West Alton Marina when we were looking, but our real estate agent (who knew we liked quiet), warned us that we probably didn't want to be there on a weekend.

If you're looking at land or a property, always try to visit it on a nice summer weekend before you consider buying it.

[winnipiseogee]

THANKS EVERYONE! All these comments have really been incredibly helpful. Hopefully I will have a lot to build on in the very near future. Soon as I do I will let you all know where!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

THANKS EVERYONE! All these comments have really been incredibly helpful. Hopefully I will have a lot to build on in the very near future. Soon as I do I will let you all know where!

Make sure you do plenty of research into the added costs of building on an island over a mainland property such as barge charges. Everything on the islands costs more. We were really surprised at how much we spent in just fees to get our kit and materials out.

Even the maintenance items after completion....

A $220 septic tank pumping for instance on the mainland is $1000-1500 on the islands.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

THANKS EVERYONE! All these comments have really been incredibly helpful. Hopefully I will have a lot to build on in the very near future. Soon as I do I will let you all know where!

Good luck if you are about to pull the trigger on something.

Without a doubt island living is the best. Now that I'm a seasoned 2 year veteran, I would not trade it for anything.

[Pine Island Guy]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Without a doubt island living is the best.

Totally agree, it is very special!

Do take note of Codeman's comment on costs... I would guess 20-30 percent premium when you factor in barge costs, labor required to move stuff from shore to boat to shore, etc

Keep us posted on your plans and enjoy island living -PIG

[Steveo]

Don't forget that no work can be done on an island (without bridges) until you have a decent docking system. I say system because you have to have a way to bring in different size vessels and be able to offload materials. On many islands you will also need a jetty/breakwater which can increase the budget significantly.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Steveo

Don't forget that no work can be done on an island (without bridges) until you have a decent docking system. I say system because you have to have a way to bring in different size vessels and be able to offload materials. On many islands you will also need a jetty/breakwater which can increase the budget significantly.

Not really true. Typically they land the barges right up to shore with ramps and deliver materials with a skid steer or crane. Our house was completely built before our dock was even started (permitting took a ridiculous amount of time on the dock and beach). They barged out excavators, dump trucks and material to clear the lot and install the septic in November 2004, then the materials for the platform and log home kit was delivered by barge, crane and skid steer in late December. Our dock did not go in until July 2005 which was about the same time we took occupancy.

Breakwaters can certainly ring up a bill when needed.

[Steveo]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Not really true. Typically they land the barges right up to shore with ramps and deliver materials with a skid steer or crane. Our house was completely built before our dock was even started (permitting took a ridiculous amount of time on the dock and beach). They barged out excavators, dump trucks and material to clear the lot and install the septic in November 2004, then the materials for the platform and log home kit was delivered by barge, crane and skid steer in late December. Our dock did not go in until July 2005 which was about the same time we took occupancy.

Breakwaters can certainly ring up a bill when needed.

My assumption was that this was a DIY deal he was talking about. Need a place to dock your own boat while building your house.

[LIforrelaxin]

My advice is simple, if you already have a piece of land in mind, first talk to the town planning board, and the local inspector. Get an idea of what the minimum requirements are going to be, to have a legal structure that you can occupy. You might find that in lieu of running water and septic, that you can have a composting toilet, or an incinerating toilet. This changes the expense ball game entirely, if you like it rustic. But back to where I was going with my original thought. First you must understand what the Town is going to require to have a structure that is legal and can be occupied. Then put together a list of the things you think are necessary, and start building from there, until your wallet is empty.

Many people here are approaching this from a like and want avenue. If you start thinking about all the likes and wants, you will likely be disappointed when you find these things aren't within the budget. I have found it is always better to start at the minimum need, and build up, adding features. That why you see what your getting, and not what you are loosing.