Kayaks in Meredith Bay

[jmen24]

This has nothing to do with visibility, it's about revenge!

WINNFABS pushed the speed limit and SBONH members want to take something away from them (apparently all of WINNFABS members are kayakers and none of them powerboat), so they grab on to every chance they get to impose a stupid idea that will take away some enjoyment of the lake for someone else.

As a founding member of SBONH (that happens to only own paddle craft), I am embarrassed by this behavior!

While the organization is not pushing (or sponsoring) these ideas, they are certainly not coming out against them. The talk on the subject is, what the loopholes are and how to get something like this flag idea passed so NH will be the only state in the country to impose this type of requirement on paddle craft.

For a group that was founded to fight the restriction of THEIR liberties, they certainly don't mind (backdoor) spearheading the removal of someone else's.

If SBONH is alive and well, I would like to know where the meetings are being held so that the general membership can have a say in what the organization works on, because they are certainly not happening on the members forum.

The mindset of constantly splitting a majority into smaller pieces is TOXIC THINKING and extends far beyond how you enjoy floating on water!

Keep this up and soon we will only be allowed to look at water!

JeffK, hit it right, if you paddle in the middle of a congested area, you get what you get with an idea like that.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by jmen24

This has nothing to do with visibility, it's about revenge!

WINNFABS pushed the speed limit and SBONH members want to take something away from them (apparently all of WINNFABS members are kayakers and none of them powerboat), so they grab on to every chance they get to impose a stupid idea that will take away some enjoyment of the lake for someone else.

As a founding member of SBONH (that happens to only own paddle craft), I am embarrassed by this behavior!

While the organization is not pushing (or sponsoring) these ideas, they are certainly not coming out against them. The talk on the subject is, what the loopholes are and how to get something like this flag idea passed so NH will be the only state in the country to impose this type of requirement on paddle craft.

For a group that was founded to fight the restriction of THEIR liberties, they certainly don't mind (backdoor) spearheading the removal of someone else's.

If SBONH is alive and well, I would like to know where the meetings are being held so that the general membership can have a say in what the organization works on, because they are certainly not happening on the members forum.

The mindset of constantly splitting a majority into smaller pieces is TOXIC THINKING and extends far beyond how you enjoy floating on water!

Keep this up and soon we will only be allowed to look at water!

JeffK, hit it right, if you paddle in the middle of a congested area, you get what you get with an idea like that.

Huh? Who mentioned anything about any agenda?

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Huh? Who mentioned anything about any agenda?

You do know that your posting history is not private, right?

We agree on many things, but this tit for tat is going to cause more problems than it will ever fix!

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by jmen24

You do know that your posting history is not private, right?

We agree on many things, but this tit for tat is going to cause more problems than it will ever fix!

I know that posting history is not private. This thread started because some kids in kayaks were apparently in a position where they needed to be assisted by Marine Patrol. A simple suggestion about an easy remedy to improve kayak visibility is being spun into a hidden agenda accusation? No hidden agenda here, just bringing up a point that flag would make all the difference in the world.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by jmen24

This has nothing to do with visibility, it's about revenge!

WINNFABS pushed the speed limit and SBONH members want to take something away from them (apparently all of WINNFABS members are kayakers and none of them powerboat), so they grab on to every chance they get to impose a stupid idea that will take away some enjoyment of the lake for someone else.

As a founding member of SBONH (that happens to only own paddle craft), I am embarrassed by this behavior!

While the organization is not pushing (or sponsoring) these ideas, they are certainly not coming out against them. The talk on the subject is, what the loopholes are and how to get something like this flag idea passed so NH will be the only state in the country to impose this type of requirement on paddle craft.

For a group that was founded to fight the restriction of THEIR liberties, they certainly don't mind (backdoor) spearheading the removal of someone else's.

If SBONH is alive and well, I would like to know where the meetings are being held so that the general membership can have a say in what the organization works on, because they are certainly not happening on the members forum.

The mindset of constantly splitting a majority into smaller pieces is TOXIC THINKING and extends far beyond how you enjoy floating on water!

Keep this up and soon we will only be allowed to look at water!

JeffK, hit it right, if you paddle in the middle of a congested area, you get what you get with an idea like that.

I have wanted to write exactly what you just so elegantly wrote. However every time I do I seem to get a year off for bad behavior.

I won't add anymore to you comments and want to thank you for telling it the way it is.

[jeffk]

Personally I don't have one.

To me this is an issue of recognizing the impact of your actions and taking responsibility for them.

If a person is walking on the sidewalk, next to the road, they are fairly safe. Cars are not supposed to be on the sidewalk. When a person decides to walk along the edge of the road for some reason, they are at much higher risk. Maybe there is NO sidewalk and they have no choice. When they cross the street, even higher risk. You can argue that cars are responsible not to hit pedestrians and you would be right. Some people are dead right. Ever come upon someone walking along a road at night wearing dark clothes? WHY, I ask, are they not aware of the risk and wearing lighter color clothes? There is no law that says they have to but for Pete's sake!

Here you have power boaters telling you that under certain conditions there can be visibility problems for small boats and asking for reasonable attempts to increase visibility. The response is that kayakers refuse to be inconvenienced by such steps. OK, that's your choice, just like the person walking along the road at night wearing dark clothes.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I have wanted to write exactly what you just so elegantly wrote. However every time I do I seem to get a year off for bad behavior.

I won't add anymore to you comments and want to thank you for telling it the way it is.

All of this subtle "protesting" against a valuable concept and idea has me thinking more about this. Honestly, there was no agenda, but now that the issue has been raised, maybe there really is an agenda. I'm deeply intrigued by the fact that such strong and immediate resistance to a simple safety flag was put forth. Why? Is it really about the flag itself; the fact that a flag looks "stupid", or the fact that it poses a non-realistic safety hazard? Or is it more about a class of boaters that don't want rules imposed upon them, and don't want their perceived "superior rights" over other boaters eroded? It never really occurred to me before now, but I'm intrigued by the fact that this seemingly same group of people in general had no problem supporting an agenda a few years ago that impacted a different group of boaters. But now, now that the spotlight is on them...man does the protesting start right up. This horse is dead, but the message is crystal clear. Seaplane Pilot is taking off, flying above all of this mess!

[jrc]

I was clearly anti boat speed limit, and I'm clearly anti kayak flag law for exactly the same reason, there is no clear danger. Do a google search, there are very few boat vs kayak collisions. This is not a real problem so why fix it?

[Woodsy]

Its the same old same old.....

There are so few boat vs. kayak collisions that a rule is not needed. The burden of safety applies to the kayaker/canoeist as well as the power boater. If you go out on ANY busy lake or waterway in a dark colored kayak/canoe with dark paddles and a dark life vest (if you even wear one), you increase the odds of something tragic happening to you. If you have a bright colored kayak, with bright paddles and a bright colored life vest, you decrease the odds of something tragic happening.

Statistically speaking, at some point an accident will occur, and it will be horrible. Fingers will pointed and somebody will get vilified, probably the operator of the powerboat. Ultimately, nothing will change as there is no reason for it.

Same silly logic as the speed limit.... another useless rule that has done NOTHING to make the lake safer... collisions still occur on occasion, with the same frequency as before. People still drive their boats foolishly and erratically, sometimes drunk or high ignoring the rules (See Stand On thread) and some people (myself included) still speed occasionally on the lake, albeit now with consequences. Same as on all of the roadways in the United States! Silly feel good useless legislation!

Woodsy

[Pine Island Guy]

I would find it surprising that our State that doesn't require helmets for motorcyclists would require a flag for kayakers... not to change the topic or any judgement, but trying to make a comparison...

Just my two cents, kumbaya, let's all enjoy the beautiful summer on the lake!!! -PIG

[Orion]

People run into ISLANDS! What makes anyone think a flag is going to protect a kayak. Let's face it, you realistically can see a kayak a mile away. If you're not paying attention, a flag isn't going to help and will just be another, unnecessary, stupid, law.

[tis]

I still think certain kayaks are hard to see. We sit here on shore and some of them you are able to see easily and some blend so nicely with the water that you can hardly see them.

[Woodsy]

Safety is a relative thing... Statistically, accidents WILL happen, and while they may be preventable, the cost vs. reward is ALWAYS in play, like it or not.

I am for personal choice/responsibility in just about everything. Choose poorly and get hurt, you have to share some if not all of the burden. Unfortunately in todays litigious society, that gets lost in the translation.

If you want to get serious about Kayak/Canoeist safety.... Mandate that Life jackets must be worn at all times by all persons and be of a highly visible color. Drowning is leading cause of death in human powered boats..... This helps reduce drowning deaths and increases their visibility to others.

Bright colored paddles wouldn't hurt either. Maybe even reflective tape! 2.00" wide band front & rear of every Kayak/Canoe a little on the paddles. There are way better options than to mandate a flag....

There are lots of simple but expensive solutions to societal problems. Ultimately society decides not pay, that its too expensive or burdensome and the problem persists.


Woodsy

[fatlazyless]

This year so far seems like there are less boats on the lake down at FL-3, down by the south end of Bear Island; less motorboats, less sailboats, and less kayaks; less all types of boats. It is usually very empty of any boats which is very different than in the past.

It used to be that the performance style boats were the die-hard boaters who would be out there in any weather and any time of day, but not any more....it's become a much quieter lake....and a little bit boring. I kinda miss the bad ole days, when there would be 2-3 feet wakes rolling in all Saturdays and Sundays, and the noise level sounded like your ears were inside a chainsaw ...my-my-my .....them were the bad-good old days.....sigh!

Ya knows....going 45-mph in a boat is hardly going slow .... especially going 45-mph in a kayak.

.... Sundays; nine to noon in the broads.....no speed limit Sundays ....bring it on!

...who knows ... total conjecture here ....but maybe the kids in the Meredith Bay kayaks were out with no pfd's on-board, and kids below a certain age are required to have pfd's on-board .... plus as public safety officers, the MP's have the discretion to use their judgment to stop what they think is an unsafe situation ....

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Safety is a relative thing... Statistically, accidents WILL happen, and while they may be preventable, the cost vs. reward is ALWAYS in play, like it or not.

I am for personal choice/responsibility in just about everything. Choose poorly and get hurt, you have to share some if not all of the burden. Unfortunately in todays litigious society, that gets lost in the translation.

If you want to get serious about Kayak/Canoeist safety.... Mandate that Life jackets must be worn at all times by all persons and be of a highly visible color. Drowning is leading cause of death in human powered boats..... This helps reduce drowning deaths and increases their visibility to others.

Bright colored paddles wouldn't hurt either. Maybe even reflective tape! 2.00" wide band front & rear of every Kayak/Canoe a little on the paddles. There are way better options than to mandate a flag....

There are lots of simple but expensive solutions to societal problems. Ultimately society decides not pay, that its too expensive or burdensome and the problem persists.


Woodsy

I hope that someday the government will stop trying to protect people from themselves.
What choices you make in your life should strictly be left up to you as long as someone else doesn't get hurt by your actions.
Going out in the Broads in your Kayak without a life jacket is dumb but it should be your choice.

Going fast in a high powered boat could endanger someone else and needs to have limits set.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Going fast in a high powered boat could endanger someone else and needs to have limits set.

Statistically that has never been proven as quoted from Dir. Barrett. However, we don't need to kick that horse again.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I hope that someday the government will stop trying to protect people from themselves.
What choices you make in your life should strictly be left up to you as long as someone else doesn't get hurt by your actions.
Going out in the Broads in your Kayak without a life jacket is dumb but it should be your choice.

Going fast in a high powered boat could endanger someone else and needs to have limits set.

Rusty....

Your logic is just a little flawed... going out in the broads without a life jacket in a canoe or kayak could ABSOLUTELY endanger someone else. The rescuers who have to respond if you capsize and cant get back into the kayak or canoe... the boater who may have run you over because you capsized and weren't visible! There are endless possibilities, and most are somewhat remote. Statistically they WILL happen eventually.

By your logic there should be limits or regulations on just about everything....

The government cannot protect people from themselves or others bent on causing mayhem of all sorts. There is no such thing as a perfect law abiding citizen. Well, ok maybe statistically there are one or two!

If someone is bent on being stupid, or carrying out a willful act of violence, there is not much that can be done to prevent it. You can make all the rules/laws/regulations you want... it doesn't mean people are going to obey them. This is price we pay for a free society.

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety - Benjamin Franklin

The SL debate is dead... as far as I am concerned. The People For Useless Legislation won. No doubt they will win many more battles before I die.

Woodsy

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

..... Ultimately, nothing will change as there is no reason for it. ...

Ah, would that it were so. If someone is killed or seriously hurt, people will be upset and legislators respond to upset people even when there is no real basis to. Some feel good response would be proposed and possibly even passed. The worst people to fix a problem are lawmakers, who rarely understand the ramifications of the laws they pass. It's unfortunate that people cannot use common sense to avoid such problems as much as possible without the goad of law.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...The burden of safety applies to the kayaker/canoeist as well as the power boater..."

It's been my experience that a 17-foot kayak is more readily seen than many other small watercraft on the lake.

I photographed this Winnipesaukee watercraft on a relatively quiet day. It has two small kids in it, while their "in-charge" adults are lounging ¼-mile away.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...There are so few boat vs. kayak collisions that a rule is not needed..."

One recent case of a demolished kayak "run-over" was blamed on the powerboat operator's inability to see—due to the angle of the sun.

Fewer laws would be needed if powerboat "drivers" wore their hats as they should be worn.

[RailroadJoe]

Love the pics. But its "cool" they will say.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Fewer laws would be needed if powerboat "drivers" wore their hats as they should be worn.

Fewer laws would be needed if kayak "drivers" wore their PFDs as they should be worn.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by jmen24

This has nothing to do with visibility, it's about revenge!

WINNFABS pushed the speed limit and SBONH members want to take something away from them (apparently all of WINNFABS members are kayakers and none of them powerboat), so they grab on to every chance they get to impose a stupid idea that will take away some enjoyment of the lake for someone else.

As a founding member of SBONH (that happens to only own paddle craft), I am embarrassed by this behavior!

While the organization is not pushing (or sponsoring) these ideas, they are certainly not coming out against them. The talk on the subject is, what the loopholes are and how to get something like this flag idea passed so NH will be the only state in the country to impose this type of requirement on paddle craft.

For a group that was founded to fight the restriction of THEIR liberties, they certainly don't mind (backdoor) spearheading the removal of someone else's.

If SBONH is alive and well, I would like to know where the meetings are being held so that the general membership can have a say in what the organization works on, because they are certainly not happening on the members forum.

The mindset of constantly splitting a majority into smaller pieces is TOXIC THINKING and extends far beyond how you enjoy floating on water!

Keep this up and soon we will only be allowed to look at water!

JeffK, hit it right, if you paddle in the middle of a congested area, you get what you get with an idea like that.

Good Afternoon,

I have been staying off to the side as I believe everything that needs to be said has been. Woodsy has said it the best that unfortunately accidents will occur regardless how much legislation is passed. It is an unfortunate reality that we cannot make every action in the world safe. Inherently when you have groups of people performing any action over time there will be mishaps and worse yet major mistakes. You cannot legislate common sense.

Regarding the above quote, I did feel a response was warranted and SBONH's official position should be conveyed as I believe there is some misinterpretation as to our goals and motives.

First I want to be clear: SBONH has not taken an official position on Kayak flags nor have we even broached the subject. This has been an ongoing debate for years along with many others i.e. paddlers fees, mandatory cold season life jacket regulations and bright colored swim caps. These are ongoing discussions that are brought up in Concord from time to time and again on these forums whenever there is any type of mishap, close call, accident or basically whenever an issue is brought up in our local media.

That being said SBONH has not introduced nor even discussed this topic. In no way what so ever would such a measure be taken without discussions with the membership, department of safety and other lakes regions groups. And in absolutely no way would revenge be any such motive for any new legislation.

SBONH believes in safer boating for all classes and types of boaters. In many cases, as we have worked for in the past, we find more legislation does not solve problems or make the lake safer. We believe boater education, participation and in legislation that works.

I am not sure if I took Jmen24's post out of context or I mis-read it, if so I apologize, however before anyone misinterprets SBONH's motivations I felt it needed to be addressed.

Carry on.

[jmen24]

Without going back to edit my post, I will clarify that it should read SBONH Members.

I did state that SBONH does not have an official stance for or against this issue. There are a few members that can't seem to move on with their anger toward the "opposition" and constantly make the rest of us look like fools!

The discussion (unfortunately not visible to the majority) taking place is between one such member (that is a part of this forum and thread) and another member that very dramatically resigned his membership here.

It was not my intention to imply that SBONH is behind this idea and I missed the omission in the proof of my post!

The remainder about discussions happening behind the scenes remains as it stands and is not a professional way to run an organization. "Laying low" is not a recognized business or organization model associated with producing results.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Without going back to edit my post, I will clarify that it should read SBONH Members.

I did state that SBONH does not have an official stance for or against this issue. There are a few members that can't seem to move on with their anger toward the "opposition" and constantly make the rest of us look like fools!

The discussion (unfortunately not visible to the majority) taking place is between one such member (that is a part of this forum and thread) and another member that very dramatically resigned his membership here.

It was not my intention to imply that SBONH is behind this idea and I missed the omission in the proof of my post!

The remainder about discussions happening behind the scenes remains as it stands and is not a professional way to run an organization. "Laying low" is not a recognized business or organization model associated with producing results.

Again I apologize if I misinterpreted or took the post out of context.

My only intention was to make sure that if any other member read it the way that I did, that we had an official statement on the matter so it couldn't be used or taken out of context elsewhere.

Thank you once again for your continued membership and please feel free to bring any concerns or issues to the board as they continue to work in the most effective manner to assist the Dept. of Safety and address boating concerns in NH.