De-Icers

islandAl · 11-21-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob1603

..... it has to be level (about 2' below water surface) for proper air flow. I have installed diffuser pipe along both sides of my 32' dock,

Thinking of this year where the lake will probably drop another foot or more after I leave, till solid ice, how do you set the deapth? Do you hang the pipes or mount on legs to the bottom? Probably will be replacing for next winter, the expensive circulator that is now getting old but has done the job. What if you have multiple piers, I have 3 that need protection and the one circulator keeps the ends open, and must be able to get in and out as I am on an island.
What would the effect on air flow be if there was only 1 foot of water, 3 feet?

jimbob1603 · 11-23-2005, 03:09 PM

I have lashed my diffuser pipe to the pilings/legs of the dock. Whether its down 1 foot or 3 feet is not an issue (I keep mine at 2 feet). But, it is critical that the entire diffuser be kept level. If it isn't level, air will not come out of the 'low' holes. The air will seek the path of least resistance (usually the holes closest to the water surface)

As an alternative to lashing it to the structure (which requires you to get wet to adjust the height), it can be hung from the dock. I made weights ( 10' rebar inside 1/2" pvc pipe; capped to keep the water out) and tied them to the diffuser pipe. Without some sort of weight, the diffuser will just float to the surface. This method allows you to adjust the diffuser pipe from the dock so you can make it level.

You can hook up 3 seperate diffusers for 3 seperate piers and run them off of one linear compressor. But, all 3 'circuits' must be level to each other; or else the low one probably won't bubble.

Be sure to test the system at whatever depth you expect it to operate. Don't set it up for 2 feet and expect it to run properly at 5 feet. Linear air compressors have a low pressure/high volume output and don't play nice at over 8 psi.

It takes surprisingly little water movement to keep ice from forming. If your system looks like a run-away Jacuzzi, you've got way too much air. Don't sweat it if a little crust builds up .... its the big stuff you need to worry about ... especially in spring.

It takes some work to build it and test it; but just think of how much cash you'll be saving because of low electrical bills. I'll be going up and turning the compressors on sometime in early December; even then they are on a thermostat and will run only below 35 deg..

Purple Hays · 12-13-2005, 02:48 PM

I bought an LMI linear air compressor and am about ready to install my bubbler. For those of you that have done this, what kind of check valve did you install to prevent water from backing up in the air supply line, freezing and subsequently preventing air from flowing? This is only a concern for me when the power goes out but that is a common occurrence on my lake.
Thanks

jimbob1603 · 12-14-2005, 09:26 AM

I don't have a check valve on my setup. My place is in Alton and have not had a problem with freezing lines caused by a power outage. But, I do understand the concern; especially if you are subject to prolonged outages.

I found that the linear compressor itself is tight enough to act as a check valve. When the power fails, water enters the bubbler line; but this is not a problem because the bubbler line is well below any potential ice. The air hose leading from the compressor is connected to the bubbler line at the same 'safe' level below the ice. The water will only rise to about the highest hole in the bubbler line. So, even if the power fails and allows 12" of ice to form around the dock, the compressor just starts up (when power returns), and bubbles start attacking the ice .... no problems.

You can prove this out in the warmth of your kitchen by placing a clear vinyl air hose from the compressor into a 5 gallon bucket full of water. Make sure the hose is straight & vertical, the open end is at the bottom of the bucket, and all connections are air tight. Momentarily turn on the compressor to clear the hose of water (stand back ... you might get wet). Turn the compressor off and note the water level in the hose ..... come back in an hour and note that the water level in the hose really hasn't changed. An alternative method involves a drinking straw and a 12oz gin & tonic! lol? Works the same way in the lake ..... the key is to be sure the connections are air tight and the air-hose/bubbler line connection is below the level of any potential ice.

Next best thing to a crank-up dock!

Purple Hays · 12-23-2005, 06:42 PM

I just got back from installing my bubbler system. It appears to be operating just about perfectly. The only thing I need to do is flush the lines out a little because I wasn't very careful regarding cleanliness. When the pump turns off and water backfills the system it picks up all the little PVC shavings, spider webs and other crud and delivers them to some of the 1/32" holes.

Jimbob, thanks for the advice about check valves. I'll confirm on my setup in case I have to put together more systems for the neighbors (my next door neighbor is using two sump pumps, I'd hate to see his electric bill).

This summer I'll play with hole diameter a little to optimize the air flow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob1603

I don't have a check valve on my setup. My place is in Alton and have not had a problem with freezing lines caused by a power outage. But, I do understand the concern; especially if you are subject to prolonged outages.

I found that the linear compressor itself is tight enough to act as a check valve. When the power fails, water enters the bubbler line; but this is not a problem because the bubbler line is well below any potential ice. The air hose leading from the compressor is connected to the bubbler line at the same 'safe' level below the ice. The water will only rise to about the highest hole in the bubbler line. So, even if the power fails and allows 12" of ice to form around the dock, the compressor just starts up (when power returns), and bubbles start attacking the ice .... no problems.

You can prove this out in the warmth of your kitchen by placing a clear vinyl air hose from the compressor into a 5 gallon bucket full of water. Make sure the hose is straight & vertical, the open end is at the bottom of the bucket, and all connections are air tight. Momentarily turn on the compressor to clear the hose of water (stand back ... you might get wet). Turn the compressor off and note the water level in the hose ..... come back in an hour and note that the water level in the hose really hasn't changed. An alternative method involves a drinking straw and a 12oz gin & tonic! lol? Works the same way in the lake ..... the key is to be sure the connections are air tight and the air-hose/bubbler line connection is below the level of any potential ice.

Next best thing to a crank-up dock!

Mee-n-Mac · 12-23-2005, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Hays

I just got back from installing my bubbler system. It appears to be operating just about perfectly. {snip}

I think a lot of us with docks would like to know how it worked over the winter and what the electric bill was. Is it possible to keep track of how much juice was used for the bubbler ? Could I ask you to post back in the spring with that number and perhaps cost as well. Ditto for jimbob (again and thx !) and Misty Blue. It would be of interest, as a point of comparison, for those of us who use circulators. Thx.

Misty Blue · 12-26-2005, 07:30 AM

The LMI compressor draws about 100 watts.
A 3/4 HP circulator draws about 550 watts.

The current price of electricity is about $.15 per KW Hour (NH Elec Co OP, I expect that PSNH is similar). This price includes stranded costs, taxes, transmision, etc. The price that we pay (Fuel charge) for generation is about $.06 of that 15 cents.

The average wholesale price of electricity in NE for the past few months has been over $.10 per KW Hour (I sell the stuff) and we can expect a substancial rate increase. Sorry about that but please note that as the price increases the pay back time for the liniar comprressor ( I got a LMI) will decrease.

Now the math:

Worse case for the liniar compressor... running 24 hours a day:

100W X 24 Hours= 2.4KW Hours X $.15= $.35 per day.

Let's check out a 3/4 HP unit running 6, 8, and 24 hours a day:

3/4 HP=550Watts.

550W X 6 Hours = 3.3KW Hours X $.15 = $.50 per day.

550W X 8 Hours = 4.4KW Hours X $.15 = $.65 per day.

550W X 24 Hours = 13KW Hours X $.15 = $2.00 per day.

Again I expect the price fo juice to go up about 10% t0 20% in the next year.

There are some other considerations. My LMI only opens the ice directly under my dock. I like this because it doesn't clear the ice at my beach where I keep my snowmobiles.

On the other hand Pine Island Guy likes his circulator because it opens up the ice for a big area around his dock keeping his swim raft clear as well.

We'll see how the old electricity bills add up over the winter.

Hope this helps.

Misty Blue.

longisland60 · 01-05-2006, 12:59 PM

I am installing ice-eaters at my property and need to put up thin ice signs. I, too, went into Heath's looking for thin ice signs, but decided $40 was too much money for a sign that I still had to secure to a piece of plywood. So, I decided to make my own.

I called the Department of Safety - Marine Patrol, and they sent me the specs on what the signs need to be, and I'll paint them up on some exterior plywood.

One thing I didn't know is that I am supposed to register the signs with the town. Does anyone know the reason for this? Do they maintain a directory of sorts? It's not for a revenue source, as it will cost me a whole 50 cents to register my sign.

I was also told that the sign should be lighted as well, although the specs call for a reflector. I haven't seen any lights on the signs I have noticed around the lake.

Anyway, I figured I'd pass along what I have learned this past week.

LongIsland60

jimbob1603 · 01-05-2006, 03:36 PM

I went to a sign shop and had a 2 x 3 sign made w/aluminum back. It cost me $45. Its big, day-glo red on a white background; and obvious from 200' away. I bolted it, above the ice/snow line, to the end of my dock.

Never heard of registering a 'Thin Ice' sign. Sounds like another method of 'The Man' checking out your house/waterfront so he can increase your property assessment. What possible benefit is there to a property owner registering a 'Caution - Thin Ice' sign? (other than employing more government clerks to keep track of the signs) I think this is a situation where ignorance is the best policy. Same thing for an aquatherm/bubbler ..... what is the practical intent of registering them?

No lights .... I prefer to use Darwin's Theory and thin the herd. If some drunken/silly person is going to wander around the ice at night, he deserves whats coming to him. When I'm drunk/silly and wandering around the ice at night, I've never seen even one illuminated 'Thin Ice' sign (fortunately, I've not yet been culled out). For Pete's sake, lighting the sign would cost more than running the compressor; which is the reason for the sign in the first place.

Island Lover · 01-05-2006, 04:04 PM

The thin ice sign does not need a permit.

But the aquatherm does require a permit from the town clerk.

jimbob1603 · 01-29-2006, 11:39 AM

My electric bill arrived (NH Electric Co-Op):

From 12-12-05 through 1-12-06
Total: $32.00 ($20 of that is a fixed cost "Member Service Fee")

The only things running on that meter are two LMI DB150L linear compressors, connected to a thermostat which turns them on/off at 35/45.

Anybody with two 1/2 hp circulators beat that?

11-23-2005, 03:09 PM	#2
jimbob1603 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big bubbles ... less troubles I have lashed my diffuser pipe to the pilings/legs of the dock. Whether its down 1 foot or 3 feet is not an issue (I keep mine at 2 feet). But, it is critical that the entire diffuser be kept level. If it isn't level, air will not come out of the 'low' holes. The air will seek the path of least resistance (usually the holes closest to the water surface) As an alternative to lashing it to the structure (which requires you to get wet to adjust the height), it can be hung from the dock. I made weights ( 10' rebar inside 1/2" pvc pipe; capped to keep the water out) and tied them to the diffuser pipe. Without some sort of weight, the diffuser will just float to the surface. This method allows you to adjust the diffuser pipe from the dock so you can make it level. You can hook up 3 seperate diffusers for 3 seperate piers and run them off of one linear compressor. But, all 3 'circuits' must be level to each other; or else the low one probably won't bubble. Be sure to test the system at whatever depth you expect it to operate. Don't set it up for 2 feet and expect it to run properly at 5 feet. Linear air compressors have a low pressure/high volume output and don't play nice at over 8 psi. It takes surprisingly little water movement to keep ice from forming. If your system looks like a run-away Jacuzzi, you've got way too much air. Don't sweat it if a little crust builds up .... its the big stuff you need to worry about ... especially in spring. It takes some work to build it and test it; but just think of how much cash you'll be saving because of low electrical bills. I'll be going up and turning the compressors on sometime in early December; even then they are on a thermostat and will run only below 35 deg..

12-13-2005, 02:48 PM	#3
Purple Hays Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Check Valve? I bought an LMI linear air compressor and am about ready to install my bubbler. For those of you that have done this, what kind of check valve did you install to prevent water from backing up in the air supply line, freezing and subsequently preventing air from flowing? This is only a concern for me when the power goes out but that is a common occurrence on my lake. Thanks

12-14-2005, 09:26 AM	#4
jimbob1603 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All Bubbles ...No Troubles I don't have a check valve on my setup. My place is in Alton and have not had a problem with freezing lines caused by a power outage. But, I do understand the concern; especially if you are subject to prolonged outages. I found that the linear compressor itself is tight enough to act as a check valve. When the power fails, water enters the bubbler line; but this is not a problem because the bubbler line is well below any potential ice. The air hose leading from the compressor is connected to the bubbler line at the same 'safe' level below the ice. The water will only rise to about the highest hole in the bubbler line. So, even if the power fails and allows 12" of ice to form around the dock, the compressor just starts up (when power returns), and bubbles start attacking the ice .... no problems. You can prove this out in the warmth of your kitchen by placing a clear vinyl air hose from the compressor into a 5 gallon bucket full of water. Make sure the hose is straight & vertical, the open end is at the bottom of the bucket, and all connections are air tight. Momentarily turn on the compressor to clear the hose of water (stand back ... you might get wet). Turn the compressor off and note the water level in the hose ..... come back in an hour and note that the water level in the hose really hasn't changed. An alternative method involves a drinking straw and a 12oz gin & tonic! lol? Works the same way in the lake ..... the key is to be sure the connections are air tight and the air-hose/bubbler line connection is below the level of any potential ice. Next best thing to a crank-up dock! Last edited by jimbob1603; 12-14-2005 at 06:06 PM.

12-26-2005, 07:30 AM	#7
Misty Blue Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 658 Thanks: 121 Thanked 283 Times in 98 Posts	Quick Math The LMI compressor draws about 100 watts. A 3/4 HP circulator draws about 550 watts. The current price of electricity is about $.15 per KW Hour (NH Elec Co OP, I expect that PSNH is similar). This price includes stranded costs, taxes, transmision, etc. The price that we pay (Fuel charge) for generation is about $.06 of that 15 cents. The average wholesale price of electricity in NE for the past few months has been over $.10 per KW Hour (I sell the stuff) and we can expect a substancial rate increase. Sorry about that but please note that as the price increases the pay back time for the liniar comprressor ( I got a LMI) will decrease. Now the math: Worse case for the liniar compressor... running 24 hours a day: 100W X 24 Hours= 2.4KW Hours X $.15= $.35 per day. Let's check out a 3/4 HP unit running 6, 8, and 24 hours a day: 3/4 HP=550Watts. 550W X 6 Hours = 3.3KW Hours X $.15 = $.50 per day. 550W X 8 Hours = 4.4KW Hours X $.15 = $.65 per day. 550W X 24 Hours = 13KW Hours X $.15 = $2.00 per day. Again I expect the price fo juice to go up about 10% t0 20% in the next year. There are some other considerations. My LMI only opens the ice directly under my dock. I like this because it doesn't clear the ice at my beach where I keep my snowmobiles. On the other hand Pine Island Guy likes his circulator because it opens up the ice for a big area around his dock keeping his swim raft clear as well. We'll see how the old electricity bills add up over the winter. Hope this helps. Misty Blue.

01-05-2006, 12:59 PM	#8
longisland60 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 27 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RE: Thin ice signs I am installing ice-eaters at my property and need to put up thin ice signs. I, too, went into Heath's looking for thin ice signs, but decided $40 was too much money for a sign that I still had to secure to a piece of plywood. So, I decided to make my own. I called the Department of Safety - Marine Patrol, and they sent me the specs on what the signs need to be, and I'll paint them up on some exterior plywood. One thing I didn't know is that I am supposed to register the signs with the town. Does anyone know the reason for this? Do they maintain a directory of sorts? It's not for a revenue source, as it will cost me a whole 50 cents to register my sign. I was also told that the sign should be lighted as well, although the specs call for a reflector. I haven't seen any lights on the signs I have noticed around the lake. Anyway, I figured I'd pass along what I have learned this past week. LongIsland60

01-05-2006, 03:36 PM	#9
jimbob1603 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	'Sir, that sign is not properly registered' I went to a sign shop and had a 2 x 3 sign made w/aluminum back. It cost me $45. Its big, day-glo red on a white background; and obvious from 200' away. I bolted it, above the ice/snow line, to the end of my dock. Never heard of registering a 'Thin Ice' sign. Sounds like another method of 'The Man' checking out your house/waterfront so he can increase your property assessment. What possible benefit is there to a property owner registering a 'Caution - Thin Ice' sign? (other than employing more government clerks to keep track of the signs) I think this is a situation where ignorance is the best policy. Same thing for an aquatherm/bubbler ..... what is the practical intent of registering them? No lights .... I prefer to use Darwin's Theory and thin the herd. If some drunken/silly person is going to wander around the ice at night, he deserves whats coming to him. When I'm drunk/silly and wandering around the ice at night, I've never seen even one illuminated 'Thin Ice' sign (fortunately, I've not yet been culled out). For Pete's sake, lighting the sign would cost more than running the compressor; which is the reason for the sign in the first place. Last edited by jimbob1603; 01-06-2006 at 11:50 AM.

01-05-2006, 04:04 PM	#10
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	The thin ice sign does not need a permit. But the aquatherm does require a permit from the town clerk.

01-29-2006, 11:39 AM	#11
jimbob1603 Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Truth or Dare My electric bill arrived (NH Electric Co-Op): From 12-12-05 through 1-12-06 Total: $32.00 ($20 of that is a fixed cost "Member Service Fee") The only things running on that meter are two LMI DB150L linear compressors, connected to a thermostat which turns them on/off at 35/45. Anybody with two 1/2 hp circulators beat that? Last edited by jimbob1603; 01-31-2006 at 04:39 PM.