Alton Tries to Silence its Citizens

[DickR]

Originally Posted by Rusty

....We can all give our opinion as to whether Clay’s right to free speech was violated...

I don't like getting into debates where perhaps both sides were wrong at least in part, but abuse of "free speech" in this case and others gets me. Nowhere in the constitution, when talking about a person's right to speak freely, does it say that others shall be forced to listen.

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by DickR

I don't like getting into debates where perhaps both sides were wrong at least in part, but abuse of "free speech" in this case and others gets me. Nowhere in the constitution, when talking about a person's right to speak freely, does it say that others shall be forced to listen.

You are right!!

No one needed to listen. But that is NOT what happened. They prevented him from speaking through the use of force.

It's a lot different not to listen to a speaker and stopping them from speaking with force.

I hope you can see the difference.

ToW

[Charlie T]

I personally think the BOS should have allowed his rant and when 5 min was up ask him to step away. If I was on the BOS I would have taken that 5 min to check email, step out for a bathroom visit, play solitaire on my phone or do anything other than listen to him. I doubt the rules state that anyone is forced to listen and pay attention during his time, he simply must be allowed to speak during his 5 min of fame.
If this guy was allowed his time he would have no recourse other than to sit down and shut up, he knew the rules and his legal rights long before he ever set foot in that room. If the BOS put any intelligent thought into it they could have avoided the unfortunate results, and the cost that is sure to result.

CT

[Mr. V]

I suspect that as he was arrested, that old line from Uncle Remus floated throught Clay's brain: "Please, bre'r fox, don't throw me into that briar patch."

He trolled the BOS perfectly.

[Natt]

I understand that this is Clays' MO. Making the same claims over and over again. Offering constructive criticism is one thing but continuing once he makes his point is simply being obstructive. The select board are basically volunteers with a complex workload. They have to set a limit.

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by Natt

I understand that this is Clays' MO. Making the same claims over and over again. Offering constructive criticism is one thing but continuing once he makes his point is simply being obstructive. The select board are basically volunteers with a complex workload. They have to set a limit.

Agreed a limit is set. And that limit is FIVE minutes per their rules not Mr. Clay's. Once he was recognized to speak he had 5 minutes and was not finished when shut off.

ToW

[dickiej]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism "-Samuel Adams. Watch Sons of Liberty if you want to see how chilling it can be when the government can silence you. The whole reason for the first amendment was so you could criticize the government and they couldn't drag you out of bed some night and hang you from a tree. We are slowly abdicating our rights and allowing the government to control us. Time to read George Orwell again everybody!

[8gv]

Originally Posted by dickiej

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism "-Samuel Adams. Watch Sons of Liberty if you want to see how chilling it can be when the government can silence you. The whole reason for the first amendment was so you could criticize the government and they couldn't drag you out of bed some night and hang you from a tree. We are slowly abdicating our rights and allowing the government to control us. Time to read George Orwell again everybody!

Or shoot you like what happened to Putin's adversary this week!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by dickiej

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism "-Samuel Adams. Watch Sons of Liberty if you want to see how chilling it can be when the government can silence you. The whole reason for the first amendment was so you could criticize the government and they couldn't drag you out of bed some night and hang you from a tree. We are slowly abdicating our rights and allowing the government to control us. Time to read George Orwell again everybody!

Appreciate the literary reference, but I think this is much more of a Brave New World.

[Patiently Watching]

The Alton chief of police should resign and the town needs to issue an apology to this person and to the town.
'Public servants' are just that - if you cannot stand a little name calling or disagreement, perhaps the private sector (McDonald's) would be a better place...
While the individual at the center of this controversy appears to be someone who frequently pushes the boundaries, it does not constitute taking away his rights.
I hope this miscarriage of justice is very costly for the town of Alton and that other nearby local governments learn a lesson from their mistake.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Patiently Watching

The Alton chief of police should resign and the town needs to issue an apology to this person and to the town.
'Public servants' are just that - if you cannot stand a little name calling or disagreement, perhaps the private sector (McDonald's) would be a better place...
While the individual at the center of this controversy appears to be someone who frequently pushes the boundaries, it does not constitute taking away his rights.
I hope this miscarriage of justice is very costly for the town of Alton and that other nearby local governments learn a lesson from their mistake.

So in your view reconciliation between all parties involved is to destroy a man’s career, embarrass the governing body of Alton, and cost the tax payer a large sum of money. Make an example out of one side of the issue and call it a day.

Public servants aren’t supposed to be human beings…have emotions or allowed to express their feelings while in office…suck it up or get out.

This type of attitude is why no one wants to run for any office in town government.

OK now throw the 1st amendment violation at us again!!....Geeeeezzz!!!

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by Rusty

So in your view reconciliation between all parties involved is to destroy a man’s career, embarrass the governing body of Alton, and cost the tax payer a large sum of money. Make an example out of one side of the issue and call it a day.

Public servants aren’t supposed to be human beings…have emotions or allowed to express their feelings while in office…suck it up or get out.

This type of attitude is why no one wants to run for any office in town government.

OK now throw the 1st amendment violation at us again!!....Geeeeezzz!!!

If the one side is violating the citizens rights then yes destroy a carrier, embarrass a Government body and do what ever it is that is necessary to DEFEND your rights.

Rusty, Look at your sig line: “Private property and freedom are inseparable.” — George Washington

Now go do some research on property rights and how they have been eroded by the courts. Did you know that according to the Supreme Court of the United States the town can take your property through "eminent domain" and give it to a private developer if his project when completed would raise more taxes for the town?

Here, I decided to help with you search: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/scotus.property/

I can tell you why that is. Because when the folks of a town in New Jersey faced the town taking their homes, few very few people from around the country came to their defense. When they lost WE all lost.

Think about this for a minute. You own some lake front property with lets say 500 foot of water front and five acres. Your family owns a small cabin. A contractor says if the town takes your property and gives it to him He'll build 200 condos and bring in significant tax revenue. Guess what? They can do it!!

When it comes to "OUR" rights you better think about fighting for them or "we" will lose them just like we did our property rights.

Oh and if you want to read about the CT case where the town took property of private citizens so Phizer could build a research facility then click this!!! http://www.governing.com/columns/eco...utrage-in.html

ToW

[wifi]

Good point TOW.


What I am having trouble with (probably due to lack of understanding) is why public "servants" are given an exception in responsibility if they do wrong,
such as the town picking up all the legal fees. Maybe if they took some personal responsibility for their actions, power trips would have some consequences for all involved, and it would be a better place to live...

[Rusty]

Believe it or not I’m OK with fighting for my rights and helping other people with theirs as long as we stay within the law of the land, educate ourselves about the violation, and methodically take action.

In the case of Mr. Clay it might have been better for him to have gone through some of those methods to get any government official removed from office.

He used his way and I guess there are a lot of people who agree with his method, I just don’t agree with it. I know what to do and where to go to get a petition started to remove someone from office. It takes more work to do it but I guess using my 1st amendment rights by just saying resign, resign, resign is OK because I have that right.

Fair enough..have a good day.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by Patiently Watching

The Alton chief of police should resign and the town needs to issue an apology to this person and to the town.
'Public servants' are just that - if you cannot stand a little name calling or disagreement, perhaps the private sector (McDonald's) would be a better place...
While the individual at the center of this controversy appears to be someone who frequently pushes the boundaries, it does not constitute taking away his rights.
I hope this miscarriage of justice is very costly for the town of Alton and that other nearby local governments learn a lesson from their mistake.

I can tell you from experiance that one receives more than one's fair share of "citizen abuse" while working at McDonald's.

[MAXUM]

This is going to backfire on the town of Alton if they opt to push this through the court system. The town residents have a right to address the board so long as their "rules" are followed which in this case it's pretty obvious the gentleman did. Now as for the content of his remarks, we need to be very careful here because as it has been pointed out before dessention is a part of every debate or discussion. The citizens must be given the chance to voice thier opinions whatever they may be so long as it is done in a civilized and respectful manner. Now is there merit to what this guy was saying? Who knows and that really who cares. He doesn't like what he sees for whatever reason and has stated that he feels the board is not doing thier job and therefore should resign. That is hardly defamitory it is an opinion. Heck after reading a bunch of the comments on this thread some of you could easliy be accused of defaming and being derrogatory torwards Mr. Clay if the same measuring stick is used by the board. Heck how can a democracy even function if the citizens are not able to speak thier mind? Let's not forget these officals work FOR the people - they are not anoited, they are not royality, they make the choice to serve the public and if that means having to sit through a little criticizm well so be it.

As for Mr. Clay, while I admire his willingness to stand up a say something he looses a whole lot a credibility by pushing the issue the way he did to the point of making a nuscense of himself and ultimately being arrested.

There is ample blame on both sides of the issue here.

[Denny Crane]

A guy like this doesn't deserve a conversation of over 80 posts. He won. He got his 15 minutes of fame. Public meetings are to discuss agendas and address concerns, not to waste time. He should run for office then, but he'd be lucky to get 10 votes.
DC

[8gv]

Ya but...

Some people like to watch football. Others watch public discourse. A bit of spectator sport I think.

[Rusty]

Since arrest at Town Hall, Clay says Alton selectmen are intimidating him

Published Date Thursday, 05 March 2015 01:33


CHICHESTER — The Alton man who was arrested in early February for telling the Alton selectmen they should resign went on the record earlier his week about his opinion about what happened to him.

Jeffrey Clay, who has retained the Sisti Law Group to represent him and was interviewed in the firm's Chichester office on Monday, said that in his mind, Alton selectmen and Police Chief Ryan Heath "used my arrest as a way to silence me."

"They didn't want me to use my free speech to say something's wrong and I want it corrected," he said.

Clay was charged with disorderly conduct after telling selectmen, during the meeting's public comment period, that they were corrupt and should resign their positions.

During the episode, Chair Loring Carr banged his gavel to silence Clay while Selectman David Hussey left the table, exited the room and returned with Heath.

Heath led him from the room by holding one of Clay's arms behind his back and turned him over to a second officer who was outside the building. Clay was charged with two counts of misdemeanor disorderly conduct – one each for a separate clause within the disorderly conduct law.

Clay said during their brief encounter and after Heath told him to leave, he said to him that he didn't do anything and Heath replied that Clay "thinks everybody is wrong except for him."

Clay said his primary complaint about the board was their lack of transparency. He said the board had been meeting in "planning sessions" during odd times of the day with no agendas or minutes and had recently decided not to continue broadcasting their regularly scheduled meetings with Lakes Region Public Access.

He said the board has been having "illegal meetings" and deliberately "circumventing" the right to know laws.

He also said the board arbitrarily goes into non-public session, including one session where they apparently discussed him without giving him the opportunity to request the meeting be held in public, which is his right under the N.H. Right to Know Law.
Three days after his arrest, he went to the police station to get a copy of the police complaints and told the dispatcher he was recording her.

She told him he needed to turn off his cell phone because she didn't agree to be taped and threatened to have him arrested in a public building.

He said just prior to his encounter with the dispatcher, he had parked his car in an area that said "municipal parking." He said he interpreted that as a place he could park his car while on municipal business but the K-9 officer told him he couldn't park there. Clay said the officer's dog was off leash and approached him.

"All I saw was German Shepard," he said when asked which dog came to him.

He said he took a photograph of the lined up police cars and Heath told him he was trespassing.

"It's one photograph," he said.

He described his life since his arrest and subsequent encounter with the police.

"It's upsetting," he said, noting that he is a retired 20-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force who spent seven years as a military police officer.

He's married with two children, four grandchildren and his mother, who lives in Dover, is upset by all the publicity surrounding him and his arrest.

Clay taught high school and finished all of his credits but one toward his CAGS, the specific training an education needs to be a school superintendent. He was fired from the Newmarket School District some years ago where he was a teacher and athletic coach.

"It's upsetting," he repeated, saying when he went to the Alton Central School office to get a copy of Superintendent William "Bill" Lander's employment contract "one of the biggest police officers I've ever seen was standing there."

He said he learned that a school district employee had called the police because she was afraid of him.

"That's sending out a message that I am a problem," he said.

The sad thing, said Clay, is that the tactics used by the selectmen and police have worked because he is not going to town meetings.

"My wife doesn't want me to go because I'm on bail," he said.

Attorney Mark Sisti said he and Clay are hopeful that the criminal case can be resolved without litigation.

"Alton should step back and learn the rules," Sisti said. "We were shocked when we heard about it."

"In a sense, they've won by absolutely silencing me," Clay said.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...e-since-arrest

[Rusty]

The article says: "Attorney Mark Sisti said he and Clay are hopeful that the criminal case can be resolved without litigation."

I know one way they could solve this issue from going to litigation and that is to have Clay apologize to the BoS and to the town of Alton for his conduct at that meeting.

If Clay feels that the board doesn't understand or follow the policy and procedures manual as well as some of the RSA's, then how about maybe educating them in a calm and peaceful manner. Evidently Clay has studied all of these laws/rules/regs and he feels they don't follow or understand them. Maybe he could set-up a class for them...he is/was a teacher.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I know one way they could solve this issue from going to litigation and that is to have Clay apologize to the BoS and to the town of Alton for his conduct at that meeting.

Another more appropriate way IMO would be to have the BOS apologize to Mr. Clay and to the residents of Alton for their conduct towards Mr. Clay.

[upthesaukee]

I believe the Town is having a holiday in a few weeks, and maybe all those Alton Citizens involved (BOS and Mr Clay) can settle things up on April Fools' Day.

Both sides behaving badly, unfortunately.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The article says: "Attorney Mark Sisti said he and Clay are hopeful that the criminal case can be resolved without litigation."

I know one way they could solve this issue from going to litigation and that is to have Clay apologize to the BoS and to the town of Alton for his conduct at that meeting.

If Clay feels that the board doesn't understand or follow the policy and procedures manual as well as some of the RSA's, then how about maybe educating them in a calm and peaceful manner. Evidently Clay has studied all of these laws/rules/regs and he feels they don't follow or understand them. Maybe he could set-up a class for them...he is/was a teacher.

You can't be serious. Hopefully the town royalty and palace guards where you live don't turn on you someday. Mr. Clay should be applauded for having the fortitude to stand up to these arrogant, self-serving bozos. I may donate to his defense fund.

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I know one way they could solve this issue from going to litigation and that is to have Clay apologize to the BoS and to the town of Alton for his conduct at that meeting.

Ya! that's it!! Have the person who's rights were violated apologize to those who violated them. That'll teach them to respect the rights of their constituents!!

ToW

[Rusty]

Removed Video.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by Rusty

At a BoS meeting prior to the one this thread is all about Clay rambled on for over 20 minutes about what he thought they were doing wrong.

After you view this (if you want to), did the board give him enough time to beat them up before he was removed from this meeting? You won't see him being removed because it was cut-out of the video.

Did he speak for twenty minutes during a five minute public comment period?

At the time of this video, was there a time limit on public comments?

[belly_button_biter]

I think they should all just resign