Lake George Speed Limit working?

[Aquadeziac]

I think even you have to admit, the point they were making is that their unit is as acurate on the low end of the scale(headway speed) as it is on the high end (40+ mph).

[Ski Man]

I've been waiting for this to come up today, hoping not to have to post and face all the personal attacks that seem to go with that, but I'm getting impatient and figuring no one has seen it yet. Following is an article in today's Citizen. Now let's hear about how Lake Georges Speed Limits aren't working;

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

[Island Lover]

An excellent article! Thanks for posting it.

It disproves most of the arguments made by the opposition. Its nice to get the real story from somebody that has been there.




Now the opposition will post that what Lt. Schneider REALLY means is that the speed limit is a bad idea!

[Seaplane Pilot]

OK then. Let's follow the lead of Lake George officials, rather than follow the position of our own NH Marine Patrol - yes, the same NH Marine Patrol that is currently responsible for law enforcement on NH inland and coastal waters. Yes, the same Marine Patrol who have stated that a speed limit is unenforceable and not needed, in their opinion. Why should we believe them, NY must know better? Give me a break, will you.

Maybe Rep. Poulliard can sponsor a bill that bans all motorboats in the state. All you island folk can sail or kayak to your island houses. If the real issue is safety, why not? Imagine the safety record then. Wait...he's too busy sponsoring statues to let 17 year old skull-bashing murderers avoid the death penalty. There's a groundswell of support to defeat HB-162, yet the supporters of the speedlimit honestly believe that this is going to pass. Not a chance.

[Ski Man]

The silence here from the opposition about the "facts" put forth in this article is pretty deafening. Is SP's rather Simian reply the official response? Are you all agreeing that the position of your man in Glendale, who has absolutely no experience enforcing a boating speed limit, who has buddied up with the very "hens" that he is supposed to be guarding, and who has lost all credibility with statements like "200 miles an hour is just fine on our lakes", rather than that of a real safety-conscious law enforcement official who has a proven track record of success enforcing an identical law for years, and local public officials there who brag about the benefits that their identical law has brought to their region, their ecomony, their tourism, their quality of life, and their overall boating experience? That sounds like a winning approach to me.
It just seems so selfish to continue to try to deny to us the same benefits that the citizens out there are enjoying just so you can drive your boats really fast.

Woodsy, Doesn't this meet the requirements you set for changing your opinion? Are you a man of your word?

[WeirsBeachBoater]

From: Lt. Joseph Schneider
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Info request
The speed limit on LG is only one regulation of a comprehensive set of regulations passed in 1988 on Lake George when the NYS Legislature recognized the need for additional protection of the unique resource that is Lake George. LGPC regulations were promulgated regarding public safety, resource protection, docks and moorings, and special navigation issues such as overcrowding, vessel noise, PWC operation, and more; as such it is impossible to say what the effect of just the speed limit has been.
Lt. J.H. Schneider
Director of Law Enforcement
Lake George Park Commission
PO Box 749
Lake George, NY 12834


NOTE: the last sentence!!!! Seems to me that Lt Schneider can't decide his position on what the speed limit has done for Lake George. May its one way, and now in the citizen in Jan its the other??? What gives?

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Seems to me that Lt Schneider can't decide his position on what the speed limit has done for Lake George.

Weirsbeachboater,
Please provide the entire exchange.

[ApS]

Although GFBLs remain their own worst enemy, this article points the bony finger of blame at Director Barrett. His early mis-statements have put his job in peril.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Although GFBLs remain their own worst enemy, this article points the bony finger of blame at Director Barrett. His early mis-statements have put his job in peril.

We can only hope. There is a growing number of citizens who are recognizing that things will not change for the better on our lakes until we have a man at Barrett's desk that looks at things the way other marine safety officials, such as Lt. Schnieder, do. The go-fast boaters, go-fast dealerships, and beach bars have had control of Glendale for too long. It's clearly time for a change that puts a safety advocate in place. Imagine what Winnipesaukee would be like if we had a man like Schnieder in charge?
Commissioner Flynn, are you listening?

[Island Lover]

Seaplane Pilot

The Marine Patrol has not taken a position on HB162. You are talking about David Barrett the current Director. He may be director for a long time to come, because if HB162 passes he isn't going to get a cushy job in the boating industry.

As I'm sure you know, he has changed his mind and now "supports" HB162. Proving only that he is a political hack.

I spoke to a former MP officer that is now a State Representative, he supports HB162.

[Fat Jack]

"Young said Lake George officials join with local law enforcement to check boats as they come out of coves and bays that have bars."

Now I understand why the Naswa is so concerned about the possibility of Lake Winnipesaukee becoming more like Lake George. They could lose all of their business.

[Ski Man]

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

Here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

SM - you aren't playing nice. Anyway, here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

SM - you aren't playing nice. Anyway, here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

We are all judges of right and wrong.....

Its called morality.

[Woodsy]

Thousands of boats using Lake George... they write 5 or 6 speeding tickets per year, and you call that effective?

If HB-162 passes as proposed by the R,R &D majority opinion, Winnfabs will be screaming FOUL at the top of thier lungs if our MP only issued 5-6 tickets per year!


Woodsy

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Thousands of boats using Lake George... they write 5 or 6 speeding tickets per year, and you call that effective?

If HB-162 passes as proposed by the R,R &D majority opinion, Winnfabs will be screaming FOUL at the top of thier lungs if our MP only issued 5-6 tickets per year!


Woodsy

Woodsy

The head of the Lake George marine patrol has explained the situation. Seems like good judgment to me. Compliance with the speed limit is what is important, not the number of citations.

Lt. Schneider thinks things are under control on Lake George. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Lt. Joseph Schneider

"There is no problem going into court," said Lt. Joseph Schneider, the head of law enforcement and marine patrol for the Lake George Park Commission.....

The supervisor said his department rarely has to issue speeding tickets to boaters as the law has become an effective deterrent.

"We haven't had any trials. We write up the boats that are obviously speeding," said Schneider.

The marine patrol chief noted that his department has been handing out an average of six tickets per year as they usually get their message across with stops and warnings.

"It's not a situation where we are butting head with these people on a regular basis," said Schneider.

[Woodsy]

I have witnessed numerous cases of non-compliance at Lake George. I have posted about them alot. Lake George does not agressively enforce the speed limit. 5-6 tickets a year? Thats a joke, and there is no denying it.

Woodsy

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I have witnessed numerous cases of non-compliance at Lake George. I have posted about them alot. Lake George does not agressively enforce the speed limit. 5-6 tickets a year? Thats a joke, and there is no denying it.

Woodsy

Your unsupported word is not "evidence".

Can you show any evidence that things are out of control on Lake George?

And if speeding IS out of control, doesn't that mean they need better enforcement? You don't repeal a speed limit because a few boats are speeding! What is your point?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Your unsupported word is not "evidence".

Can you show any evidence that things are out of control on Lake George?

And if speeding IS out of control, doesn't that mean they need better enforcement? You don't repeal a speed limit because a few boats are speeding! What is your point?

Man oh man, the guy who can produce NO evidence to support his case other than hearsay and conjecture demands evidence of everyone else.

Consistency is all I ask, that and real proof, not editorial and smoke from someone who obviously supports speed limits.

OK, I'll use your logic, you don't implement a speed limit "because a few boats" can go fast.

[Woodsy]

Island Lover,

No offense, but only issuing 5-6 tickets per year speaks volumes as to how aggressive they are at Lake George in regards to speed limit enforcement. Lt. Schneider even goes on to say that noise is a higher priority than excessive speed.

What more do you require as proof? I don't think thinga are "out of control" in Lake George, any more that Lake Winnipesaukee.

It will be funny to see how many cry foul if our MP's only issued 5-6 speeding tickets per year... Winnfabs would be asking for Director Barrett's head on a platter!

Who is going to pay for the MP officers to take the two week radar training course?

Woodsy

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by ITD

Man oh man, the guy who can produce NO evidence to support his case other than hearsay and conjecture demands evidence of everyone else.

Consistency is all I ask, that and real proof, not editorial and smoke from someone who obviously supports speed limits.

OK, I'll use your logic, you don't implement a speed limit "because a few boats" can go fast.

ITD

This is getting silly!

We have provided plenty of evidence. Your pretending we have not is pure nonsense.

Is the recent fatal accident hearsay? Or is it conjecture?

How many more need to die before you are convinced?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

ITD

This is getting silly!

We have provided plenty of evidence. Your pretending we have not is pure nonsense.

Is the recent fatal accident hearsay? Or is it conjecture?

How many more need to die before you are convinced?

Umm, how many people died in Lake George last year? You want Winnipesaukee to be just like Lake George? I think the safety record there would be the last thing I'd refer in an argument about the ideal model for safe lakes. The marine patrollers there are apparently so concerned with speed, noise, BWI, and PWCs operating at >5 MPH <500 feet from shore (what a silly law!) that they can't be bothered to ensure PFDs are put on people in wheelchairs.

[Bear Lover]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Umm, how many people died in Lake George last year? You want Winnipesaukee to be just like Lake George? I think the safety record there would be the last thing I'd refer in an argument about the ideal model for safe lakes. The marine patrollers there are apparently so concerned with speed, noise, BWI, and PWCs operating at >5 MPH <500 feet from shore (what a silly law!) that they can't be bothered to ensure PFDs are put on people in wheelchairs.

It is a measure of how desperate the oppositions arguments are getting, that they have to sink so low as to blame a freak, tragic accident on the speed limit.

20 senior citizens, mostly in wheel chairs, died. Probably because of overloading and design problems. Now the opposition claims these people died because the marine patrol were to busy enforcing the speed limit. How low can you get? And how absurd the argument?

Does New York have a law requiring people in wheel chairs to wear PFDs? And if there is such a law (which I doubt) its the responsibility of the tour boat captain to see they are on.

These ridiculous, low blow arguments are not helping your cause!

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

We are all judges of right and wrong.....

Its called morality.

IL - not so sure this can be considered "morality". More like opinion.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

"It's just another tool in the tool box," said Schneider.

Isn't this exactly what you'd expect to hear from a law enforcement official? Why does he see this law as a tool to use as he see fit, rather than a burden? Why can't we get someone like this to oversee safety on our lake instead of having a person in his position who always seems to take the side against safety? Out there, the MP fronted the effort to make their lake safer, instead of being its biggest obstacle. While our director of "safety" is joining the local association of GFBL boaters and helping them to fight against the citizens who pay his salary, the MP out there is actually representing his citizens and doing what is best for them, the region, and its economy, not to mention what is safest.
This really highlights the huge probelm that we have with the leadership in Glendale and the struggles that we are going to continue to face until there are major changes made, starting right at the top.