Wolfeboro in Winter

[coley]

I have rented a spot in Jockey Cove for one week each summer for the last 17 years. My children (17,15, and 8) wanted to go to lunch in Wolfeboro during winter break last week. So we went on Thursday. Boy, what a difference in winter time. It was great on the way up to listen to the kids stories about summers gone by. After lunch at Garwoods, we went to the place we rent and walked out on the dock. How grey and wintry, but peaceful. The seven months until July cant come fast enough!!!

[TomC]

Originally Posted by coley

...we went to the place we rent and walked out on the dock...

My friends, relatives, and I have several seasonal rental properties around the lake's region (Winni and other lakes). It is not uncommon for people to do what you did (visit in the offseason a place rented in the summer). One year a neighbor notified us that we had an uninvited "guest" fall down on the property as it isn't maintained/plowed/shoveled in the winter, and the grounds were very slippery. Luckily no one was hurt, and we didn't have to find out what would have happened with insurance.

Technically, visiting someone else's private property w/o permission is trespassing (unless you are talking about a hotel-type resort - and maybe that still is). We run bubblers at one of the places and a fall off an icy dock there means a winter swim in deep water

Prior to owning my own places, I did the same thing - many years ago, I remember a winter visit to a place on Squam, right below the Rattlesnake lookout. All of us like our guests and don't want to seem cranky, but we dislike this practice. What is your opinion?

[xstrapolator]

Tom,

I can understand your concern, but how would a visit of that nature be any different then someone walking up my walkway and falling in the winter?

Not trying to start an arguement, just curious as to why the season would change the situation as regards insurance.

[coley]

Sorry to stir things up, but should have mentioned that I rent it from very dear personal friends and I did tell them that I would be in the area...they appreciated it that I took the time to check things out for them and keep an eye on the place

[Skip]

Originally Posted by xstrapolator

...Not trying to start an arguement, just curious as to why the season would change the situation as regards insurance...

It doesn't....

The tresspass laws in New Hampshire are routed both in State and what is known as common law.

RSA 635:2 (I) states in part.." A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place..."

The key word here is the culpable state of mind required, as indicated by the word "knowing(ly)".

It is a commonly held (and common law belief) tradition in New Hampshire that all lands are open unless posted or instructed otherwise. Hunting is a fine example of how people commonly use others property without direct expressed permission. Hiking, cross country skiers, birders and nature lovers of all types also enjoy this tradition.

The accepted method to post property against tresspassing is with signage. This signage needs to have letters at least two inches in height, a quick explanation of what activity is not allowed and the name of the landowner while being placed no further than 100 yards apart. Signage should be prominently displayed at common points of entry.

You would ned to show that the person entered onto the property "knowing" that he did not have license or privilege to do so. Absent verbal or written instruction by the landowner, a court or a law enforcement officer prior to the incident, you cannot prove the culpable state of "knowingly".

I would also say that when you rent or lease properties to the general public, there is an expectation that unless instructed otherwise, prospective customers may and will visit to "check the merchandise" before entering in to a business agreement.

Anyway, what Coley did was not a case of tresspass (unless the property was posted or he had been previoulsly instructed to stay off the property) and is common practice in the State.

As for liability, there is no one direct answer. However, if you have open property with a known serious defect (such as an open well with no protection or warning) then of course you risk exposure if someone enters your property, is injured and can show negligence on your part.

There are many things that make New Hampshire unique. The principal of open property, carried over from our forefathers who wanted lands (within reason) left to the enjoyment of all, is but just an example of the beauty of this State.

Anyway, I have attached the RSA governing tresspassing below for everyones perusal. A new version took effect as of yesterday.

Skip




RSA 635:2
TITLE LXII
CRIMINAL CODE
CHAPTER 635
UNAUTHORIZED ENTRIES
Section 635:2


[RSA 635:2 effective until January 1, 2006; see also RSA 635:2 set out below.]
635:2 Criminal Trespass. –
I. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place.
II. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor if:
(a) The trespass takes place in an occupied structure as defined in RSA 635:1, III; or
(b) The person knowingly enters or remains:
(1) In any secured premises;
(2) In any place in defiance of an order to leave or not to enter which was personally communicated to him by the owner or other authorized person; or
(3) In any place in defiance of any court order restraining him from entering such place so long as he has been properly notified of such order.
III. All other criminal trespass is a violation.
IV. As used in this section, ""secured premises'' means any place which is posted in a manner prescribed by law or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, or which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders.

[TomC]

to address some of the points raised:

perhaps there is no relevance to the off-season nature of an issurance claim, the point i was trying to make is: who ever wants to deal with an insurance company, even if the claim is honored?!

the properties i was refering to are normal seasonal residences that are rented weekly in the summer (8-12 weeks) Skip, are you saying that because of this fact, they are considered 'open' and subject to unannounced off-season visits, to "check them out"? i would submit that most of the folks that rent their homes from time to time would be suprised if this is the case.


lastly, any "unposted" property, residential in nature or not, can be 'visited' at any time for any reason (unless you are specifically told to leave)? if someone observes a vacant lakefront home with an inviting sandy beach, they can grab a cooler, have a picnic, and go for a dip? Sounds unreasonable...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by TomC

....the properties i was refering to are normal seasonal residences that are rented weekly in the summer (8-12 weeks) Skip, are you saying that because of this fact, they are considered 'open' and subject to unannounced off-season visits, to "check them out"? i would submit that most of the folks that rent their homes from time to time would be suprised if this is the case.


lastly, any "unposted" property, residential in nature or not, can be 'visited' at any time for any reason (unless you are specifically told to leave)? if someone observes a vacant lakefront home with an inviting sandy beach, they can grab a cooler, have a picnic, and go for a dip? Sounds unreasonable...

The shot answer to the above is "yes"... the tresspassing laws in New Hampshire seem to be confusing to some, especially those from other States with much more restrictive regulations. John Harrigan, the well respected and much loved wildlife columnist for the New Hampshire Sunday News, often writes of the misconstrual of tresspass and ages old concept of open land in New Hampshire

Obviously, the houses, outbuildings and fenced in (or other obviously secured areas) are different, and are addressed as so in the RSA.

Interestingly enough, New Hampshire is becoming more unique in the open land concept as many other States (including much of the west) view all property as private with invitation only status.

I see the issue quite differently. I myself have looked over properties and walked along beaches many times, especially during off season months. I have observed many others doing the same, and I would be surprised at any long time seasonal renter or landowner that hasn't experienced the same.

And yes, people do picnic along seemingly empty or abandoned sections of beach. Remember, if the body of water is greater that ten acres, it is common property to all. The beach where the blanket and cooler is parked may be owned privately, and if the landowner asks you to vacate, you must do so accordingly....but then only to the recognized water line.

My point is the vast majority of people are reasonable in their excercising of this privlege. If you do not want anyone on your property uninvited, than there are specific legal actions you can take to prevent them from encroaching and protecting yourself.

That stated, the actions coley participated in are legal in New Hampshire and not a "technical" form of tresspassing.

A good explanation of landowner and guest rights and responsibilities can be found in various sections of the well maintained New Hampshire Fish & Game website.

Anyway, I can understand your concerns for liability and I salute your fortitude and ability to offer up property for rental so others can enjoy the beauty and serenity of life up here!

Finally, what may sound "unreasonable" to some has always been reasonable to many, many generations of New Hampshirites. Its what keeps me here and apparently draws millions of others to visit our beautiful State on an annual basis.....

I hope ensuing generations can keep it this way!

Skip

[secondcurve]

TomC:

I understand your point, but I think your perspective highlights what is wrong in America today. The family simply was enjoying Wolfeboro in the winter and they took the opportunity to see their summer rental in a different light. Regardless of whether the property was that of a close friend or more distant landlord, what harm were they causing? All to often folks immediately think about suing someone. It makes no sense to me.

[BroadHopper]

My family owns a 350 acre farm in Gilford and we allow recreational use of the land. The local snowmobile club maintains a corrider on the property and they do a good job at respecting the land. There are many trails that people use to hike and bike. As long as people respect the property the family will continue public use of the property. I think everyone should feel the same way.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Skip

It is a commonly held (and common law belief) tradition in New Hampshire that all lands are open unless posted or instructed otherwise. [/B]

Interesting. I thought it was the complete opposite. I know it is for snowmobiles, just assumed it was the same for all activities.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Scott

Interesting. I thought it was the complete opposite. I know it is for snowmobiles, just assumed it was the same for all activities.

Very good point, Scott....

OHRV's are one of the exceptions (always those darn exceptions) that are specifically regulated in another section of the Code. And you are right, an OHRV cannot be operated off of one's own property without proper registration and direct landowner permission (all interesting regulations for another thread).

Anyway, the information I poster previously assumes you are operating in a "self propelled" mode!

Skip

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

TomC:

I understand your point, but I think your perspective highlights what is wrong in America today. The family simply was enjoying Wolfeboro in the winter and they took the opportunity to see their summer rental in a different light. Regardless of whether the property was that of a close friend or more distant landlord, what harm were they causing? All to often folks immediately think about suing someone. It makes no sense to me.

I must say that I do not take kindly to people trespassing on our private property. One of the reason's is certainly the fear of being sued if someone falls or such. So, I do not allow those without permission.

I find it odd that you (Tom C) would be ok with it. Even though Coley had permission...... what if he didn't and someone fell in the water off the dock? What if someone was more than injured? The vast percentage of our population (unfortunately!) doesn't take responsibility for their own actions and would point blame at the owner.

Coley, I understand that you had permission and am not throwing stones by any means.

[TomC]

Originally Posted by Lakewinniboater

I find it odd that you (Tom C) would be ok with it.

funny thing is, secondcurve asked what the big deal was, and said that s/he was disappointed that everyone has a "sue" mentality, but that is exactly what I am afraid of.

maybe the thread title is misleading to the topic, but I find it surprising that there hasn't been more reaction to Skip's emails that says that anyone, unless the property is properly posted, or they have been denied permission, can go on the land of others...

[Lakewinniboater]

Sorry about that..... Apparently, I misconstrued your post.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by TomC

...I find it surprising that there hasn't been more reaction to Skip's emails that says that anyone, unless the property is properly posted, or they have been denied permission, can go on the land of others...

I dunno, I guess growing up in New Hampshire as an avid outdoors type I am not surprised that many of the readers here are actually very understanding of New Hampshire's fairly unique concept of open lands. I find the average poster here on the Winni site pretty up to speed on the quirks of this great State...that's one of many things that makes it so interesting to visit this site!

I do realize that the concept is quickly eroding, especially in the southern tier of the State. As more & more development occurs and many new people move in from out yonder, there are many more acres now posted as "NO TRESSPASSING". There are many reasons for this, the unfortunate main reason being those handful of people that ruin it for all by their total lack of disregard for other people's property. I see this attitude all to prevalent this time of year out in the area snowmobile trail system!

But on the bright side, there are still so many good people out there that allow the sportsmen, fishermen, hiker and nature lover free access to the back 40. These people that continue to allow everyone to enjoy the beauty of the State by not limiting access to their properties to the general population are owed a debt of gratitude that is seldom returned in kind.

And I fully appreciate and respect the right of others to post their lands to protect their privacy, if they so choose. Dealing with the negative side of society, as I must unfortunately do too much of the time, I can easily see why some feel the need to pursue a course of limited or no access.

That said, if you would like to limit your exposure to liability in the off-season, drop me a PM and I can probably suggest some ideas for proper but discrete signage.....

Skip

[Rose]

I have a friend from England, where there is also an open land concept. It always amazed me that landowners over there had paths through there fields for everyone to use. Glad to know that concept exists one mile north of my home.

[secondcurve]

Tom & Wendy:

I think you are both being overly cautious. Let's assume that Wendy rents her house to Coley in the summer and he returns to the house in the winter unannounced and slips and falls on her dock and becomes disabled. Do either of you think he has a viable case against Wendy? I don't, because he doesn't. By the way, on the outside chance that you do become liable in a terrible accident (think snowmobiles and boats) hopefully you have an umbrella insurance policy in place. They are cheap, about $200.00 per $1,000,000 and they will let you sleep peacefully at night.

[Lakewinniboater]

nope, no umbrella policy. However, I will now look into it.

Thanks for the info!!

[Grant]

A very interesting subject, and one that brings to mind an issue faced by the residents of our shore on the Lake a few years ago.

For as many years as anyone can remember, there was a path along the shore from Twentymile Bay north to the Wawbeek. As kids, we would use this primarily as a path to get to Wawbeek, where we'd meet other kids whose families would rent there at the same times each summer. Neighbors from down the shore would pass by occasionally, and we'd wave from the porch, exchange pleasantries, etc. It was always that way.

After the Wawbeek was sold and sub-divided, the new owners of the waterfront where the main dock was located decided that their property was now off-limits and the path was no longer accessible. This cut off a main section of the path, and essentially spelled the end of its use. One of our more eloquent neighbors made this the subject of a letter to the editor of the Granite State News a few years ago.

For everyone along the shore, it seemed as though a big razor-wire fence had been erected. However, it was the property owner's right, and they were very emphatic about exercising that right. Let's just say that it didn't make them very popular.

Well, as is frequently the case, the new owners built their McMansion on the old property, and a few years later broke camp and fled. A gentleman who grew up along the shore and who worked at the old Wawbeek Hotel as a youngster purchased the property and has restored the rights.

As for the renters checking out the summer place during the winter, if they aren't imposing or intruding, what's the harm? Seeing the place in the winter is a memorable experience.

[secondcurve]

Grant:

That is a nice story. The guy obviously "gets it". In his case, it probably is more about being a nice person, than his willingness to accept the liability of a potential accident on his property, although I could be wrong. In any event, I am glad a bit of history has been restored.

Wendy, you should definitely look into Umbrella Insurance, especially if you own a boat or snowmobile. It is cheap insurance that you probably will never need. However, if you ever have an accident and someone gets hurt, you will be darn glad you spent the money. I like to sleep soundly at night, knowing that my assets are protected. Ask your insurance agent, he/she will know exactly what you are talking about.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Grant:

That is a nice story. The guy obviously "gets it". In his case, it probably is more about being a nice person, than his willingness to accept the liability of a potential accident on his property, although I could be wrong. In any event, I am glad a bit of history has been restored.

No -- really more about his lifelong heritage on that shore, his love of the place, and his knowledge of what it has been and should always be. He's another one of those guys who, like my dad, grew up there and remain there and who don't ask for much, but cherish the little traditions because they understand the value.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Grant

No -- really more about his lifelong heritage on that shore, his love of the place, and his knowledge of what it has been and should always be. He's another one of those guys who, like my dad, grew up there and remain there and who don't ask for much, but cherish the little traditions because they understand the value.

Its refreshing to see there are still people out there like the individual you mention.

You are very lucky to be able to experience (and appreciate) his wisdom and insight !

Skip

[Merrymeeting]

We covered a similar situation here...

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...21734#poststop

I still miss that rope swing!

[kunamola]

Actually, the path did (does) not end at Wawbeek but continued (es) all the way through Merrymount to Copps Brook (Creek). Not many people travel that far now.

When I was a child you could actually cross the Creek by wading in what once (prior to dredging) was shallow water and a sand bar and continue on the high water line all the way to Melvin Village. That is how we used to walk to the Hansel and Gretel shop.

Kunamola

[Grant]

Good point! Yes, we used to travel as far as the creek as kids. Too bad my own kids never did the same -- despite having spent all their summers up there. See what the removal of one section of the trail has done?