Reasonable for an engine rebuild

[Water Camper]

I have a 1995 225 SunDowner Fourwinns with a 5.8 liter, Ford 351 ci running 260 hp with almost 1,700 hours. I am the original owner.
The engine has recently developed a noisy lifter. The marina is suggesting the engine be pulled and rebuilt.

Is this reasonable for the age and hours ?

Is there possibly a less expensive solution ?

Thanks,
Bill

[Woodsy]

Camper...

You have to look at cost and the actual value of your boat.... A new motor is not going to increase the value. Its a 21 year old boat. are you keeping the boat forever? Are you throwing good money after bad?

To your question.... I would hunt around for a replacement motor, not a rebuild. Its usually cheaper. A rebuild will run close to 4K. Not counting the labor to take it out and put it back.

That being said... you are opening Pandora's box when it comes to your boat. Once they pull the motor other things will need replacement. Hoses, engine coupler, steering actuator etc... How is the transom? The floor? the stringers? They all need to be inspected before you pull the trigger on a new motor.

All things you have to look at.

[dam1960]

Try a pint of good old fashion Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by dam1960

Try a pint of good old fashion Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase.

And in the gas tank! Works wonders! The US Army buys them by the drums!

[SAB1]

Agree with Woodsy. Look at cost of new engine. That aside and based on my conversations with my mechanic yes your hours are up there. My guy has always said, based on how the boat was used, somewhere 1200 -1500 they get a little "tired". New engine is alot cheaper than new boat..............

[BroadHopper]

You could search for a take out. Some boat owners would repower with a larger motor and the old motor is perfect or hardly used. Or buy a 'short block', a remanufactured motor that you need to transfer all the necessities/accessories from the old motor. If you buy a short block, make sure its a truck block and not auto.

[Woodsy]

A quick search @ http://www.dougrussell.com/ found a new 250hp Ford 351 marine long block motor for $3995.... and I think when you call them you might get a better deal.

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Why not just replace the noisy lifter? It's not hard to do. I would not even consider a rebuild unless you failed a leak down test, the oil pressure was too low, the heads were cracked, or the motor was knocking.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Why not just replace the noisy lifter? It's not hard to do. I would not even consider a rebuild unless you failed a leak down test, the oil pressure was too low, the heads were cracked, or the motor was knocking.

This, not a big deal, can most likely be done without pulling the motor or heads. Also sometimes that ticking noise can be other things like an exhaust leak at the manifold. If it's not burning oil or showing other signs of coming apart, I would just fix the problem. 1700 hours isn't really that much for newer engines.

[Woodsy]

Hard to be a frugal yankee when you own a boat.

At 1700 hours the motor is plain worn out. It went 21 years with no issues. You will end up throwing good money after bad. In reality fixing the lifter is a band aid... more than likely the cam is getting wiped. In any case the valve springs are toast. the repair might last a little while, but for sure something else is ready to break.

I would try to limp it thru the season and look at a fall repair.

Woodsy

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

How is the transom? The floor? the stringers? They all need to be inspected before you pull the trigger on a new motor.

All things you have to look at.

A 20 year old boat is looking at a Transom Core replacement at the least. Woodsy is correct. NB

[ITD]

Let's see, the average car runs probably about an average of 50 mph through it's life so multiply that times 1700 hours and you get 85,000 equivalent miles, barely broken in as far as I'm concerned.

If the motor is otherwise running well and using no oil then I would fix the issue (it could also be a stuck valve, but it wouldn't run well if this is the case). While fixing it you can pull the intake and check out the cam too, if it's trashed ditch or rebuild the motor. First I would check the exhaust manifolds to make sure they aren't leaking and then I would pull the fan belt and run for a few minutes to see if the noise disappears. That's just me though, I'm cheap, plus I know how my engine has been treated.

[SAB1]

It really comes down to how much you want to spend. If the budget is tight fix it and see what happens. 1700 hours on a boat isn't by any means a spring chicken. Not sure I buy the analogy to the car miles as the boat engine takes a bit more abuse. Think of it another way......if you were buying a used boat that had 1700 hrs on the engine wouldn't you be expecting some repairs coming.....

[VitaBene]

If you decide to replace the engine, talk to this company http://marshallsmachine.com/index.shtml. The marine rebuilds are a few bucks more than the prices listed. I long blocked my old 350 powered Chris and put 500 hours without an issue. It is still out there.

[Woodsy]

ITD.... I respectfully disagree.

Boat engines unlike car engines do no not have multi-speed transmissions. This means they are under constant loading. They don't ever coast even when idling. 1700 hours on a boat motor is a lot of hours. Quite frankly I am surprised it made it this far without major repair. Kudos to Water Camper!

The reality is, the boat is worth between $5k & $6K tops (NADA). Sinking a bunch of $$$ into engine work (rebuild or replace engine, coupler, etc) or other work (gas tank, transom, stringers, floor) still leaves you with a $5K - $6K boat.

If you like the boat and are going to keep it forever... spend the $$. You will never recover the investment. If not get rid of it now and move on to another boat.

Woodsy

[radiocontester]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD.... I respectfully disagree.

Boat engines unlike car engines do no not have multi-speed transmissions. This means they are under constant loading. They don't ever coast even when idling. 1700 hours on a boat motor is a lot of hours. Quite frankly I am surprised it made it this far without major repair. Kudos to Water Camper!

The reality is, the boat is worth between $5k & $6K tops (NADA). Sinking a bunch of $$$ into engine work (rebuild or replace engine, coupler, etc) or other work (gas tank, transom, stringers, floor) still leaves you with a $5K - $6K boat.

If you like the boat and are going to keep it forever... spend the $$. You will never recover the investment. If not get rid of it now and move on to another boat.

Woodsy

I'm sure the 5K to 6K NADA reference does not take into account the engine repair. A prospective buyer would insist the sale price reflect that....which in this case the boat value would end up being between valued between 1k and 2k.

Watercamper: Given your situation I suggest selling it as-is and moving on.......

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD.... I respectfully disagree.

Boat engines unlike car engines do no not have multi-speed transmissions. This means they are under constant loading. They don't ever coast even when idling. 1700 hours on a boat motor is a lot of hours. Quite frankly I am surprised it made it this far without major repair. Kudos to Water Camper!

The reality is, the boat is worth between $5k & $6K tops (NADA). Sinking a bunch of $$$ into engine work (rebuild or replace engine, coupler, etc) or other work (gas tank, transom, stringers, floor) still leaves you with a $5K - $6K boat.

If you like the boat and are going to keep it forever... spend the $$. You will never recover the investment. If not get rid of it now and move on to another boat.

Woodsy

We almost agree here Woodsy, engine longevity argument aside, were it my engine I would probably just run it if it were running ok beside the noise. At the end of the season, I would pull out my tools and open it up after determining the noise was inside the engine and not an accessory, a bearing, an injector or any other number of things it could be. I would check out the cam for obvious extensive wear then replace the lifters. All in all it's something that would take me 15 to 30 hours in my estimation, maybe less, maybe more ( I spend most of my time looking for my tools). If I found a big problem, I'd button it up and probably get a new(er) boat, or, if attached to it, rebuild or replace the motor.

If $300 worth of lifters solve the problem for another 10 years I'm way ahead of the game.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by ITD

We almost agree here Woodsy, engine longevity argument aside, were it my engine I would probably just run it if it were running ok beside the noise. At the end of the season, I would pull out my tools and open it up after determining the noise was inside the engine and not an accessory, a bearing, an injector or any other number of things it could be. I would check out the cam for obvious extensive wear then replace the lifters. All in all it's something that would take me 15 to 30 hours in my estimation, maybe less, maybe more ( I spend most of my time looking for my tools). If I found a big problem, I'd button it up and probably get a new(er) boat, or, if attached to it, rebuild or replace the motor.

If $300 worth of lifters solve the problem for another 10 years I'm way ahead of the game.

Yes sounds great as long as your able to do this. I'd guess the "average" person who's challenged by any more than an oil change would not be comfortable attempting what you suggest. When people ask for advice and names I just love all the "it's easy do it yourself responses." I'd be comfortable attempting surgery if I'm a surgeon most people asking these questions are doing so for a reason. I realize Plumbing is easy for a plumber, doesn't mean I have a clue what I'm doing.
Not "challenging" you in particular just venting more than anything.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by dpg

Yes sounds great as long as your able to do this. I'd guess the "average" person who's challenged by any more than an oil change would not be comfortable attempting what you suggest. When people ask for advice and names I just love all the "it's easy do it yourself responses." I'd be comfortable attempting surgery if I'm a surgeon most people asking these questions are doing so for a reason. I realize Plumbing is easy for a plumber, doesn't mean I have a clue what I'm doing.
Not "challenging" you in particular just venting more than anything.

Yes, I get that, but here is my take on it. The engine is running, it just started making some noise. The collective here has surmised that the boat is probably not worth a new or rebuilt engine. Here's the rub, it's still running and probably still running well. If the alternative is to either get rid of it or dump more money into it than it is worth, why not just keep running it until it doesn't run any more? It could last another 1,000 hours making that ticking noise. It's not an airplane engine, if it fails you on the water you call for a tow. Meanwhile it could run for years costing nothing but fuel and oil changes and a little pm.

[AC2717]

Most times if a Sticky lifter, a quarts of Marvell's Mystery Oil in the oil and run it and then maybe a Oil Flush will get the job done.
always did on my older cars
cost of Marvell's, the flush and new oil and filter well worth the chance it will fix it

[dpg]

Originally Posted by ITD

Yes, I get that, but here is my take on it. The engine is running, it just started making some noise. The collective here has surmised that the boat is probably not worth a new or rebuilt engine. Here's the rub, it's still running and probably still running well. If the alternative is to either get rid of it or dump more money into it than it is worth, why not just keep running it until it doesn't run any more? It could last another 1,000 hours making that ticking noise. It's not an airplane engine, if it fails you on the water you call for a tow. Meanwhile it could run for years costing nothing but fuel and oil changes and a little pm.

Yes that I absolutely agree but at first you were getting into checking the cam yourself, etc. Pouring in some Mystery Oil is way easier that digging into an engine.

[Rattletrap]

All the research I've done says every 100hrs=15,000 miles so that would be 255,000 miles at 1700 hrs I'd say you got your $ worth out of that engine

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Rattletrap

All the research I've done says every 100hrs=15,000 miles so that would be 255,000 miles at 1700 hrs I'd say you got your $ worth out of that engine

15,000 miles in 100 hours is 150 mph. Methinks your math is suspect.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by dpg

Yes that I absolutely agree but at first you were getting into checking the cam yourself, etc. Pouring in some Mystery Oil is way easier that digging into an engine.

So every post has to align with your ability or lack thereof?? Nope.

[Woodsy]

ITD...

If you figure you change your car oil every 5000 miles or you boat oil every 50 hours the math is pretty easy...

There are several sites that back up what Rattletrap was saying...

Here is a link...

http://www.discoverboating.com/newsr...px?id=7&qid=37

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/enginelife.htm

Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

I have a 1995 225 SunDowner Fourwinns with a 5.8 liter, Ford 351 ci running 260 hp with almost 1,700 hours. I am the original owner. The engine has recently developed a noisy lifter. The marina is suggesting the engine be pulled and rebuilt. Is this reasonable for the age and hours ? Is there possibly a less expensive solution? Thanks, Bill

A pint of Marvel Mystery Oil could get you through this season.

Consider the replacement engine during the "off season", after you've had the transom "surveyed".

.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by ITD

So every post has to align with your ability or lack thereof?? Nope.

Whatever...

[ITD]

Originally Posted by dpg

Whatever...

Yep, there you go, whatever.

[Water Camper]

I have purchased some Marvel Mystery Oil and plan on adding it before I take the boat out tomorrow. I have also talked to the marina about replacing the noisy lifter(s) if the MMO has no effect.

At this point I am not ready to replace the boat. Yes, it is over 20 years old, but if you saw it you would suggest it is relatively new. It has spent it's summers in a boathouse and winters under a carport.

Anyway, Thanks all for all the advice.

Bill

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

I have purchased some Marvel Mystery Oil and plan on adding it before I take the boat out tomorrow. I have also talked to the marina about replacing the noisy lifter(s) if the MMO has no effect.

At this point I am not ready to replace the boat. Yes, it is over 20 years old, but if you saw it you would suggest it is relatively new. It has spent it's summers in a boathouse and winters under a carport.

Anyway, Thanks all for all the advice.

Bill

Bill, sounds like your going down the right track....

While I don't disagree with Many of the points made here.... starting with MMO, is always a good step with noise lifters... there are other products with similar intentions one can use as well....As I believe in driving vehicles into the ground I have dealt with lazy lifters in this mater many times.

As I do believe you recognize the age of the boat.... I would suggest before making any major steps having the boat surveyed... if you have moisture in the transom or the stringers a good survey will pick up on it. It maybe fine if it has been well cared for.... Then it will be easier to determine, how much money you want to spend on improvements.

While Woodsy is correct that your engine is tired... you do have to look at your use of the boat... if you many cruise around, getting another few hundred hours shouldn't be a problem..... However if you are skiing, tubing, or trying to run around from port to port as fast as possible... well that is a different story, and I would be thinking about replacing the engine....

[sum-r breeze]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

I have purchased some Marvel Mystery Oil and plan on adding it before I take the boat out tomorrow. I have also talked to the marina about replacing the noisy lifter(s) if the MMO has no effect.

At this point I am not ready to replace the boat. Yes, it is over 20 years old, but if you saw it you would suggest it is relatively new. It has spent it's summers in a boathouse and winters under a carport.

Anyway, Thanks all for all the advice.

Bill

Hey Bill, Sorry to hear about the noise in your engine. You already know what I have to offer as far as engine knowledge and experience. Before you do any "repairs" to that 351, have someone do a wet compression test (they inject some motor oil into the spark plug holes before cranking) If you get low 100s (100 102 105 psi) then things aren't too healthy in the piston ring / cylinder bore areas. A long block replacement might be an option if you REALLY want to keep the boat. That being said...when you transfer all that other accessory equipment onto the new engine.......it all has 1700 hours on it. One by one you will be replacing those items too. I see it all too often in the automotive field, the engine is just replaced and the transmission croaks a month later. My advice is to put that money towards a newer boat that you will get a lot more time and use out of the investment. Take the trade in price...hold your nose and get a newer boat. Money well spent for future summers.

The Breeze
Wave 'cuz I'll be wavin' back

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

I have purchased some Marvel Mystery Oil and plan on adding it before I take the boat out tomorrow. I have also talked to the marina about replacing the noisy lifter(s) if the MMO has no effect.

At this point I am not ready to replace the boat. Yes, it is over 20 years old, but if you saw it you would suggest it is relatively new. It has spent it's summers in a boathouse and winters under a carport.

Anyway, Thanks all for all the advice.

Bill

Water Camper, Bill. The late Sunset Bob had a high hour 21' Larson cuddy V6 (I believe it was a V6) that actually lost almost all oil pressure but still ran. It was noisy if he ran it at full throttle which he did only when necessary. He ran that motor for over a year before spending $10K for a completely new engine. It never failed to run. I rode in the boat with the bad oil pressue with Bob. He had hooked up an pressure guage and it rested on the rear jump seat so he could see the OP. I believe he had also used Mystery Oil after the problems arose. Good luck with your engine.
[IMG]http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/showphoto.php?
photo=18765&ppuser=628[/IMG]

[Dave R]

Couple of things:

1. 1700 hours is a lot, but if the engine is typical and well maintained, there might be 300+ hours of life left in that engine and and the current rate of use, it would last another 3.5 seasons, so it's definitely worth fixing instead of junking if the problem is just a noisy lifter.

2. If one is even considering a rebuilt engine in a 20 year old mainstream runabout boat, resale value is utterly irrelevant, this is clearly someone that likes the boat and just wants to keep using it. Spending an estimated $7k on a "new" engine may seem like a bad idea for that boat as an investment, but it would be vastly cheaper than the depreciation hit on a much newer boat, especially if the boat is otherwise in great shape.

I have a 16 year old boat that still looks new and I would not think twice about putting a new engine in it if needed. I love this boat and I love not owing a cent on it...

[BroadHopper]

I have a 28 year old boat with 1032 hours on the original motor. Meticulously maintained by LLM. Previous owner had the boat in storage for 7 years is the reason for the low mileage. Inside storage in the winter and covered slip in the summer. Motor is still running strong. Talked to other owners of 454 Magnum engines in the marina and 1700 hours is common! I expect many more years of enjoyment!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I have a 28 year old boat with 1032 hours on the original motor. Meticulously maintained by LLM. Previous owner had the boat in storage for 7 years is the reason for the low mileage. Inside storage in the winter and covered slip in the summer. Motor is still running strong. Talked to other owners of 454 Magnum engines in the marina and 1700 hours is common! I expect many more years of enjoyment!

While Woodsy had a point about Marine engines being consistently under load, thus wearing out faster... One must think about the car... I have had hour meters in my last several vehicles..... Which have all gone over 5000 hours, with out issue...By the way, I have a truck, that regularly Tows, and is generally used as a Truck, not as a passenger car... Trust me lots of hours under load, Trailering in the Mountains

As I stated earlier, if you aren't needing performance out of the engine, for watersking etc.... putting 2000 hours on an engine is perfectly reasonable. In fact most well loved ski boats get up into the 1000-1200 hour range.... But remember most of these engines are "production engines" when properly sized for the boat, they are built with longevity in mind, this includes the 8.2 and 496 HO models that you find in the larger bow riders and cuddy cabins.....

Now when you move from the production engines, that most people have in their boats, and get into the Mercury High Performance engines..... H.P. 500, H.P. 525 and upward.... these are a different story... These engines are not built for longevity... they are built for performance and power.... They do need regular maintenance, and rebuilding them at around 500 hours is not unheard of... or doing a valve and lifter job at 200 hours .......

Now if Bill really likes his boat.... I suggest the step by step approach....Starting with some MMO.... and then taking the next step....As Dave R mentioned yes you may never recoup your money from putting a new engine in a old boat... but if you love your boat, and its in good shape, investing in it isn't a bad way to go...

I myself am thinking of a new boat... Not because I am scared to invest in my current boat, but only because I want something bigger.... If I wasn't looking to be in a bigger boat.... I would drop a new engine in my boat no problem... replace the transom, with out question... replace stringers, undoubtedly.... Because yes these things cost money... but so does a new boat....I had to invest 2500$ in my boat for an epoxy bottom because of blistering... Money I knew I couldn't get back out of the boat if I sold it... but now its 10 years later..... so it cost me 250$ dollars a year average out.... yep I have gotten that much and more in enjoyment with my wife and kids.....

You Pay for this hobby one way or another.... if you enjoy it.... The money is the least of your concerns.... Finding the time before you retire is the bigger concern!!!!!!!!!!

[Water Camper]

Picked up some Marvel Mystery Oil last Friday. After putting in the MMO took a ride around Paugus Bay. Thought the lifter noise quieted down a bit, but probably just wishful thinking. On Sunday cruised out to Cow for the day and returned at the end of the day. Both Sue and I thought the lifter noise had quieted a bit but was still there. The marina is going to replace the offending lifter(s) later this week, we'll see what transpires from there.

Thanks,
Bill

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

Picked up some Marvel Mystery Oil last Friday. After putting in the MMO took a ride around Paugus Bay. Thought the lifter noise quieted down a bit, but probably just wishful thinking. On Sunday cruised out to Cow for the day and returned at the end of the day. Both Sue and I thought the lifter noise had quieted a bit but was still there. The marina is going to replace the offending lifter(s) later this week, we'll see what transpires from there.

Thanks,
Bill

I hope it works out for you.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

Picked up some Marvel Mystery Oil last Friday. After putting in the MMO took a ride around Paugus Bay. Thought the lifter noise quieted down a bit, but probably just wishful thinking. On Sunday cruised out to Cow for the day and returned at the end of the day. Both Sue and I thought the lifter noise had quieted a bit but was still there. The marina is going to replace the offending lifter(s) later this week, we'll see what transpires from there.

Thanks,
Bill

Did you use the MMO mixed with the gas or oil? I would do both.

[Water Camper]

Rick,

Only added it to the oil.

Bill