Noise Level Testing Procedure

Fat Jack · 02-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Skip,
I appreciate the offer to call you, but there are two reasons I don't want to do that. I hope you can understand;

1) My goal here is to further public discussion of this bill to be sure it gets the scrutiny that such an important issue deserves. Almost nobody has your expertise in noise science, and very few people have even the inkling of understanding of noise that I do...so it is important for all to understand just how much louder a boat that produces 88 dB's at idle is from one that produces 82 dB's at full throttle, and to see discussion and debate over the true impact that this bill might have. I'd rather see explanations in writing, where I can carefully analyze each point, than to get a verbal explanation that I will probably not be able to follow or absorb.

2) You're are a ranking member of Winnilakers (an admitted GFBL association) and of NHRBA (a group that I have always felt to be another GFBL association and that was derived from Winnilakers). As you will see if you look around this forum and the others, it has been an eerie obsession of members of these groups to identify the speed limit supporters. Identities, once discovered, have been posted on the go-fast sites with full names, addresses, emails and phone numbers. HB162 supporters have received nasty emails and been the targets of threats and blackmail. I do not have my phone number blocked and really do not want to take the chance of exposing it, my last name, or my address, or my email to anyone associated with these two groups. I am not accusing you of having any nefarious intent here, but I am sure you can appreciate my abundance of caution and my reasons for wishing to remain anonymous.

I'm still hoping that someone who is not part of the go-fast crowd and can fully understand all of the issues here can address my very specific questions above...through the open forum.

Skip · 02-09-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

...Skip,
I appreciate the offer to call you, but there are two reasons I don't want to do that. I hope you can understand...

Yes, I am a proud member of the NHRBA, a recreational boaters group devoted to increased boater saferty through education.

I am surprised to learn I am a "ranking member" of winnilakers...whatever the heck that means? I am a subscriber to that and number of other Winni, Ossipee, snowmobile and powerboat websites. Heck, I even visit the Winnfabs site regularly, I hope you're not going to hold that against me! But you should know better than to lump people together based on what internet sites they belong to. I can think of much better ways than that to judge the character of an individual.

I enjoy participating in all different views associated with outdoor power sports in the greater New Hampshire area. I refuse to be pigeonholed into one particular group or another, preferring to draw my conclusions by borrowing from the best ideas of all differing opinions.

Its unfortunate that we won't have an opportunity to chat about these subjects as adults off-line. It is extremely difficult to form correct opinions about individuals based on internet chit chat. I found that to be extremely true when I met some of the characters lurking here at the first winnifest celebration. The folks I had chatted, and sometimes argued with on-line were the nicest bunch of people I'd met in a long time at the 'fest, and nothing like I had imagined them from my 'net exposure.

Anyway, as I promised "the Don", I'm backing on out of this boating debate here and returning to my format of providing information on general legal issues (and some electronics/radio related chit chat with DRH & the Skipper & Crew).

Anyway, my offer for you to call me (and you can do so anonymously, I promise not to trace the call....heck, I'll even send you the money for a payphone ; ) still stands, I hope that somtime you feel comfortable enough to do so....I'm really not a bad guy and I love to talk politics!

Good day to you sir,

Skip

winnilaker · 02-09-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

Skip,
2) You're are a ranking member of Winnilakers (an admitted GFBL association) and of NHRBA (a group that I have always felt to be another GFBL association and that was derived from Winnilakers).

Jack or whoever you are,
You may have notice I have stayed out the conversations but I will continue to defend NHRBA and Winnilakers. You have gotten mad in the past about being called a liar.

Your statement "2) You're are a ranking member of Winnilakers" implies you know something I don't. I started Winnilakers (For those who don't know, it was a way for people of common interest of the lake to share fun stories. IT IS NOT A GFBL site, even though our logo is pretty cool

. Back to my point, we have no ranking members, it's me and only me. I don't have a GFBL, so how does that make me in a GFBL crowd. So in your statement, you are stating it as TRUE and I KNOW (undeniably) it is false, that makes it a lie. At least I grew up thinking that the opposite of the truth, is a lie.

So I basically wanted to set the record straight to everyone here. Fat Jack doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to NHRBA and Winnilakers. Here's my email publicly custie@winnilakers.com or custie@nhrba.com if you want the truth.

Fat Jack obviously has some bug about an organization that shares a different opinion than him and I understand that, he is entitled to his views, but everyone else is entitled to the truth.

Custie

FYI - Winnilakers raised $3400 for the March of Dimes last year and we already have $1600 so far this year. And this is not a LIE, overwhemingly the members of Winnilakers do not have A SO CALLED GFBL boat.

P.S. I do find it funny that you, Jack, have access to the emails I sent to a Winnfabs officer earlier last year, YET you claim to have no affliation to Winnfabs. I know someone who could be your twin.

Fat Jack · 02-09-2006, 03:50 PM

WL,

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

I won't get into the "Skip was not one of the original members" and "Winnilakers is not a go-fast group" debate...that was not my intention, and I think that everyone on this forum has already formed an opinion on just what NHRBA and Winnilakers are...we are not going to change that in this thread...either way. Skip is clearly more a part of your side of the general "go-fast be-loud" versus "quiet down-be safe" debate. Let's leave it at that.

But your participation in this discussion furthers my concern. So far, it is only the most avid HB162 opposers (who, BTW, all deny being GFBLers) that seem to want to see HB1624 pushed through under the cover of darkness. What's up with that? It would seem that the HB162 supporters would be the ones you'd expect to see pushing for HB1624 if it was truly going to result in queiter boats.

You have previously stated many times that we are all in favor of quieting down the loud boats. If HB1624 might just allow them to be louder, do you want to know that? Will you still support it? I'm not saying for sure that it would do that...but I certainly want to know...don't you? Let's discuss that instead of trying to guess how I know about your membership and questioning my identity (again with the identity thing?).
Let's get back to topic.

winnilaker · 02-09-2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

If HB1624 might just allow them to be louder, do you want to know that? Will you still support it? I'm not saying for sure that it would do that...but I certainly want to know...don't you? Let's discuss that instead of trying to guess how I know about your membership and questioning my identity (again with the identity thing?).
Let's get back to topic.

OK, back on topic. Honestly, you may find this hard to believe, but I actually haven't discussed this bill yet with NHRBA members, so I'm sure NHRBA currently doesn't have a position on it. Now that this is getting some attention, I plan on doing so and seeing what the position might be with the other members. But my personal opinion would be to reduce noise as much as possible in a safe manner. I think loud boats are not needed here, I'll go the power boat races to hear loud.

gtxrider · 02-09-2006, 04:29 PM

Perhaps this will help.

"The decibel (abbreviated dB) must be the most misunderstood measurement since the cubit. Although the term decibel always means the same thing, decibels may be calculated in several ways, and there are many confusing explanations of what they are.

The decibel is not a unit in the sense that a foot or a dyne is. Dynes and feet are defined quantities of force and distance. (You can go to the National Bureau of Standards and look at a foot or a dyne if you want to. They never change.) A decibel is a RELATIONSHIP between two values of POWER.

The usefulness of all this becomes becomes apparent when we think about how the ear perceives loudness. First of all, the ear is very sensitive. The softest audible sound has a power of about 0.000000000001 watt/sq. meter and the threshold of pain is around 1 watt/sq. meter, giving a total range of 120dB. In the second place, our judgment of relative levels of loudness is somewhat logarithmic. If a sound has 10 times the power of a reference (10dB) we hear it as twice as loud. If we merely double the power (3dB), the difference will be just noticeable.

[The calculations for the dB relationships I just gave go like this; for a 10 to one relationship, the log of 10 is 1, and ten times 1 is 10. For the 2 to one relationship, the log of 2 is 0.3, and 10 times that is 3. Incidentally, if the ratio goes the other way, with the measured value less than the reference, we get a negative dB value, because the log of 1/10 is -1.]"

from Peter Elsea 1996

And again what may be noise to one is music to another!

Woodsy · 02-09-2006, 04:34 PM

Fat Jack....

It is absolutely no secret I am a Hi-Performance boater. I also belong to NHRBA, and Winnilakers and a host of other boating sites. I have made no no attempt to disguise who I am, or that I own a 26' Donzi and that it runs approximately 65MPH at top speed. I have also made my opinion known in many threads about exhaust noise. I think Rep. Whalleys bill is a great first step. I also think it should be amended to allow switchable exhaust systems such as those sold by Fay's Marina on some of thier Chapparal boats.

I think you need to do some research on SAE J2005. I think you would be pretty surprised at how the testing procedure is to be done, vs your perception of how the testing is to be done. Rep. Whalley's bill references SAE J2005 ALOT. See the link Skip provided above. It is also the standard in use by a large number of other states. It was developed specifically by SAE so Law Enforcement Agencies can easily measure sound as emitted by the exhaust of pleasure boats.

If you go to the SAE website, you can download it.

I am sorry you cannot comprehend HB-1624 as it is written. Skip (an obvious Law Enforcement Officer) offered to educate you privately and you declined. it's probably alot easier for you to think its some sort of conspiracy to make the world louder.

Woodsy

Fat Jack · 02-09-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I am sorry you cannot comprehend HB-1624 as it is written. Skip (an obvious Law Enforcement Officer) offered to educate you privately and you declined. it's probably alot easier for you to think its some sort of conspiracy to make the world louder.

This will be my last post on this (unless something new is added). I raised very legitimate and specific questions about obvious concerns with proposed changes to our laws. I understand the language of HB1624 better than you think...apparently better than those of you arguing with me about it. And I am not challenging SAE-J2005...I have read it...I understand it...it is a good measurement technique...safer and easier for our MP. But it does not set the dB limits that are being proposed in this bill. And this bill appears to loosen the dB limits of our existing laws substantially, while doing that under the coattails of an easier/safer measuring technique. Skip's understanding of the flexibility of the bill is obviously not being reflected in the language of the bill. Those who point out obvious flaws in a proposal are not all conspiracy theorists, although calling questioners by names like that seems to be the curious MO of those supporting this bill.
Right now, I have bigger fish to fry. We can look at this again if it gets through committee.

02-09-2006, 01:53 PM	#1
Fat Jack Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 183 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Got your PM Skip, I appreciate the offer to call you, but there are two reasons I don't want to do that. I hope you can understand; 1) My goal here is to further public discussion of this bill to be sure it gets the scrutiny that such an important issue deserves. Almost nobody has your expertise in noise science, and very few people have even the inkling of understanding of noise that I do...so it is important for all to understand just how much louder a boat that produces 88 dB's at idle is from one that produces 82 dB's at full throttle, and to see discussion and debate over the true impact that this bill might have. I'd rather see explanations in writing, where I can carefully analyze each point, than to get a verbal explanation that I will probably not be able to follow or absorb. 2) You're are a ranking member of Winnilakers (an admitted GFBL association) and of NHRBA (a group that I have always felt to be another GFBL association and that was derived from Winnilakers). As you will see if you look around this forum and the others, it has been an eerie obsession of members of these groups to identify the speed limit supporters. Identities, once discovered, have been posted on the go-fast sites with full names, addresses, emails and phone numbers. HB162 supporters have received nasty emails and been the targets of threats and blackmail. I do not have my phone number blocked and really do not want to take the chance of exposing it, my last name, or my address, or my email to anyone associated with these two groups. I am not accusing you of having any nefarious intent here, but I am sure you can appreciate my abundance of caution and my reasons for wishing to remain anonymous. I'm still hoping that someone who is not part of the go-fast crowd and can fully understand all of the issues here can address my very specific questions above...through the open forum.

02-09-2006, 04:29 PM	#6
gtxrider Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Piscataway, NJ Posts: 1,030 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 24 Posts	Decibel or .1 Bel Perhaps this will help. "The decibel (abbreviated dB) must be the most misunderstood measurement since the cubit. Although the term decibel always means the same thing, decibels may be calculated in several ways, and there are many confusing explanations of what they are. The decibel is not a unit in the sense that a foot or a dyne is. Dynes and feet are defined quantities of force and distance. (You can go to the National Bureau of Standards and look at a foot or a dyne if you want to. They never change.) A decibel is a RELATIONSHIP between two values of POWER. The usefulness of all this becomes becomes apparent when we think about how the ear perceives loudness. First of all, the ear is very sensitive. The softest audible sound has a power of about 0.000000000001 watt/sq. meter and the threshold of pain is around 1 watt/sq. meter, giving a total range of 120dB. In the second place, our judgment of relative levels of loudness is somewhat logarithmic. If a sound has 10 times the power of a reference (10dB) we hear it as twice as loud. If we merely double the power (3dB), the difference will be just noticeable. [The calculations for the dB relationships I just gave go like this; for a 10 to one relationship, the log of 10 is 1, and ten times 1 is 10. For the 2 to one relationship, the log of 2 is 0.3, and 10 times that is 3. Incidentally, if the ratio goes the other way, with the measured value less than the reference, we get a negative dB value, because the log of 1/10 is -1.]" from Peter Elsea 1996 And again what may be noise to one is music to another!

02-09-2006, 04:34 PM	#7
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,968 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Fat Jack.... It is absolutely no secret I am a Hi-Performance boater. I also belong to NHRBA, and Winnilakers and a host of other boating sites. I have made no no attempt to disguise who I am, or that I own a 26' Donzi and that it runs approximately 65MPH at top speed. I have also made my opinion known in many threads about exhaust noise. I think Rep. Whalleys bill is a great first step. I also think it should be amended to allow switchable exhaust systems such as those sold by Fay's Marina on some of thier Chapparal boats. I think you need to do some research on SAE J2005. I think you would be pretty surprised at how the testing procedure is to be done, vs your perception of how the testing is to be done. Rep. Whalley's bill references SAE J2005 ALOT. See the link Skip provided above. It is also the standard in use by a large number of other states. It was developed specifically by SAE so Law Enforcement Agencies can easily measure sound as emitted by the exhaust of pleasure boats. If you go to the SAE website, you can download it. I am sorry you cannot comprehend HB-1624 as it is written. Skip (an obvious Law Enforcement Officer) offered to educate you privately and you declined. it's probably alot easier for you to think its some sort of conspiracy to make the world louder. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

02-09-2006, 03:50 PM	#4
Fat Jack Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 183 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WL, Me thinks thou doth protest too much. I won't get into the "Skip was not one of the original members" and "Winnilakers is not a go-fast group" debate...that was not my intention, and I think that everyone on this forum has already formed an opinion on just what NHRBA and Winnilakers are...we are not going to change that in this thread...either way. Skip is clearly more a part of your side of the general "go-fast be-loud" versus "quiet down-be safe" debate. Let's leave it at that. But your participation in this discussion furthers my concern. So far, it is only the most avid HB162 opposers (who, BTW, all deny being GFBLers) that seem to want to see HB1624 pushed through under the cover of darkness. What's up with that? It would seem that the HB162 supporters would be the ones you'd expect to see pushing for HB1624 if it was truly going to result in queiter boats. You have previously stated many times that we are all in favor of quieting down the loud boats. If HB1624 might just allow them to be louder, do you want to know that? Will you still support it? I'm not saying for sure that it would do that...but I certainly want to know...don't you? Let's discuss that instead of trying to guess how I know about your membership and questioning my identity (again with the identity thing?). Let's get back to topic.