Hot water issue - furnace ?

[Taz]

I'm with longtimelurker, I have been using Stafford and am very happy with them. Bob in service is very knowledgable and will answer all my questions without complaint, very patient.

I also agree indirect storage tank is the way to go. Never runs out of hot water, always consistent. I never had luck with coils in the boiler. Also you could install the indirect storage tank now to take care of the hot water problem and wait on the boiler if there are no problems. Why replace the boiler now if its only hot water issue that indirect tank would correct?

during summer your boiler will run a lot less frequently with indirect storage tank. Its much more efficient that the hot water of your boiler with coil.

[Taz]

Forgot to say, the indirect tank will last forever and you can still use it when its time to replace the boiler. You don't get many years with a separate electric hot water heater. Will need to be replaced every few years.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Taz

I'm with longtimelurker, I have been using Stafford and am very happy with them. Bob in service is very knowledgable and will answer all my questions without complaint, very patient.

I also agree indirect storage tank is the way to go. Never runs out of hot water, always consistent. I never had luck with coils in the boiler. Also you could install the indirect storage tank now to take care of the hot water problem and wait on the boiler if there are no problems. Why replace the boiler now if its only hot water issue that indirect tank would correct?

during summer your boiler will run a lot less frequently with indirect storage tank. Its much more efficient that the hot water of your boiler with coil.

A 30 year old boiler needs replacing regardless. I agree, an indirect storage tank is the best. I just went through this last year. It's not my primary residence so I just went with the new boiler with a new internal coil. It works great and the boiler is so much more efficient. Eventually the coils lose their efficiency but when they are new they work fine. I could be dead by the time that happens. "Forever" is not in my vocabulary anymore.

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by Biggd

A 30 year old boiler needs replacing regardless. I agree, an indirect storage tank is the best. I just went through this last year. It's not my primary residence so I just went with the new boiler with a new internal coil. It works great and the boiler is so much more efficient. Eventually the coils lose their efficiency but when they are new they work fine. I could be dead by the time that happens. "Forever" is not in my vocabulary anymore.

Thanks Biggd.....

I'm in the same situation, not my primary residence either !
I do use the property year-round, but not permanent.
I will either be renting or selling this property (condo), within the next year,
so looking at cost justification for new boiler. $$$ I'm planning to purchase permanent residential home at the lake this year or next.

Will review with HVAC contractors, if I can install just the indirect storage tank,
beside the boiler, but I have serious space limitation if this is even feasible TBD ? The boiler runs fine, just does not provide adequate hot water b/c of the coil. Boiler is 25+ years old, so I understand the fuse is set, and only a matter of time before it dies. Don't want that to happen in the middle of winter, it's a dice roll !

If I go the course and install new boiler and be done with it all. as you stated "I could be dead by the time the new boiler fails again' !

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Thanks Biggd.....

I'm in the same situation, not my primary residence either !
I do use the property year-round, but not permanent.
I will either be renting or selling this property (condo), within the next year,
so looking at cost justification for new boiler. $$$ I'm planning to purchase permanent residential home at the lake this year or next.

Will review with HVAC contractors, if I can install just the indirect storage tank,
beside the boiler, but I have serious space limitation if this is even feasible TBD ? The boiler runs fine, just does not provide adequate hot water b/c of the coil. Boiler is 25+ years old, so I understand the fuse is set, and only a matter of time before it dies. Don't want that to happen in the middle of winter, it's a dice roll !

If I go the course and install new boiler and be done with it all. as you stated "I could be dead by the time the new boiler fails again' !

I think you are going to find that installing an indirect storage tank with a circulator is going to cost almost as much as installing a new boiler with a coil. My situation was similar as I have a 3 1/2 foot high basement so I needed a side clean out boiler because a top clean out would very difficult to clean. I called a few burner companies but because of where it was located they wanted a lot of money. I Found a top cleaning boiler on line and I was able to find an oil burner guy from Mass willing to do it on the side. Total job cost me under 4K. I had to help him get the boiler into the basement which was a two man job, they are heavy. Plus I told him not to skimp on shut off valves and drains incase I had to drain the system down or shut things down if pipes leak. It was probably another $500.00 in extra valves and piping which a heating contract would not include in a basic boiler replacement. Of course this was all done after I had spent $800.00 on an emergency repair by Stafford oil and then told I needed a new boiler.

[Taz]

2 years ago indirect tank $2400.00 installed. Understand the reasons why others were going with tankless coil. I just would not like the boiler constantly firing up to maintain temp for hot water. The indirect tank keeps water hot for hours.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Taz

2 years ago indirect tank $2400.00 installed. Understand the reasons why others were going with tankless coil. I just would not like the boiler constantly firing up to maintain temp for hot water. The indirect tank keeps water hot for hours.

I agree, If I lived in my house year round I would have gone with the indirect tank. But where it's a second home I didn't opt for the extra expense. I will say that this new boiler has saved me a ton of money on oil over the 30 year old boiler that I had in there before so I feel I will recoup my money back in oil savings real quick.

[bigdog]

Latest estimate to replace my boiler with coil with same type, came in around $5500, materials and labor. HVAC company gave me the estimate but did not break-out line items for boiler cost and labor hrs. have since asked for that info.

This includes all new burner setup, piping valves, etc, and disposal of old boiler. They added extra 5 yrs to warranty and 2 yrs of annual cleanings to sweeten the deal. HVAC contractor is a HUGE dealer out of Concord, with lot's of experience and a great reputation.

Labor per hours is pretty much standard $75-100 hr per man.
Boiler costs, they tend to pad, and build in fluff !

I have a oil burner guy in Mass, who can do the job probably for less, but would require him to, come to property here and do the job same day. I would also have to purchase the boiler myself and have delivered to property.
In the end I may only save $500-700 +/-. Not sure it's worth the trouble ?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Latest estimate to replace my boiler with coil with same type, came in around $5500, materials and labor. HVAC company gave me the estimate but did not break-out line items for boiler cost and labor hrs. have since asked for that info.

This includes all new burner setup, piping valves, etc, and disposal of old boiler. They added extra 5 yrs to warranty and 2 yrs of annual cleanings to sweeten the deal. HVAC contractor is a HUGE dealer out of Concord, with lot's of experience and a great reputation.

Labor per hours is pretty much standard $75-100 hr per man.
Boiler costs, they tend to pad, and build in fluff !

I have a oil burner guy in Mass, who can do the job probably for less, but would require him to, come to property here and do the job same day. I would also have to purchase the boiler myself and have delivered to property.
In the end I may only save $500-700 +/-. Not sure it's worth the trouble ?

How big of a boiler do you have? Mine was a 3 section. The bigger the boiler the bigger the cost.

[ITD]

Were I you I would have the coil cleaned and replace the mixing valve if the boiler is not leaking. That should cost a few hundred bucks. A lot better than $5,500. Once they flush it out I doubt you would have any sediment issues. Personally I hate coils and would never install another were I putting in a new boiler. In fact, my coil started acting up on my summer house and I put a super stor in, worth every penny in my opinion. That was about 6 years ago, old boiler is still going strong. But if money is an issue, I would have the coil cleaned and put a new mixing valve in.

I don't believe in replacing boilers until they start leaking, any increase in efficiency is small compared to the cost of replacement. I like to get every last penny out of stuff.

[bigdog]

Biggd,
My boiler is a Weil McCalin (coil type) 'contractor grade' for condo, 2 zones, about 100,000 btu's.

ITD,
To answer your question regarding removing and replacing the coil, it's sort of a crap shoot ! By that I mean if the bolts on the plate housing the coil are rusted, they could snap off, then the bolts would have to re-tapped, running up the cost. The coil costs about $450, with maybe 2-3 hours work depending on unforeseen issues during replacement, and no guaranty it won't leak at that connection after work completed. So bottom line, about $700-800, and I still have a 25 yr old boiler..... I could be throwing good money to bad on this option, a roll of the dice ! A lot of "if's" to replacing coil !

So difference between coil replacement and new boiler about $4000-4500, still a lot of money, but I'll be able to sleep at night, and know I have hot water for another 25 yrs., but I'll be dead by then !

[ITD]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Biggd,
My boiler is a Weil McCalin (coil type) 'contractor grade' for condo, 2 zones, about 100,000 btu's.

ITD,
To answer your question regarding removing and replacing the coil, it's sort of a crap shoot ! By that I mean if the bolts on the plate housing the coil are rusted, they could snap off, then the bolts would have to re-tapped, running up the cost. The coil costs about $450, with maybe 2-3 hours work depending on unforeseen issues during replacement, and no guaranty it won't leak at that connection after work completed. So bottom line, about $700-800, and I still have a 25 yr old boiler..... I could be throwing good money to bad on this option, a roll of the dice ! A lot of "if's" to replacing coil !

So difference between coil replacement and new boiler about $4000-4500, still a lot of money, but I'll be able to sleep at night, and know I have hot water for another 25 yrs., but I'll be dead by then !

Yes, I hear you on that. I suppose if money is not an issue then go for it. If money is an issue I would try cleaning the coil and probably replacing the mixing valve. No matter what you choose I hope it works out for you.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

Were I you I would have the coil cleaned and replace the mixing valve if the boiler is not leaking. That should cost a few hundred bucks. A lot better than $5,500. Once they flush it out I doubt you would have any sediment issues. Personally I hate coils and would never install another were I putting in a new boiler. In fact, my coil started acting up on my summer house and I put a super stor in, worth every penny in my opinion. That was about 6 years ago, old boiler is still going strong. But if money is an issue, I would have the coil cleaned and put a new mixing valve in.

I don't believe in replacing boilers until they start leaking, any increase in efficiency is small compared to the cost of replacement. I like to get every last penny out of stuff.

My oil consumption went way down after replacing my 30 year old boiler. I estimate a five year payback after seeing my oil bill drop this winter and this winter was much colder than the year before. And oil was more expensive this winter than the year before. Since it's a second home I sleep better not worrying about a 30 year old boiler crapping out and my place freezing up. To each his own.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Biggd

My oil consumption went way down after replacing my 30 year old boiler. I estimate a five year payback after seeing my oil bill drop this winter and this winter was much colder than the year before. And oil was more expensive this winter than the year before. Since it's a second home I sleep better not worrying about a 30 year old boiler crapping out and my place freezing up. To each his own.

So my point on the pay back. If you are at 75% efficiency now and go to 85% efficiency with a new boiler and you burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year. You will save about 100 gallons of oil per year give or take. At $1.50 per gallon you will save about $150.00 per year. For a $5,500 investment it will take you 36 years to pay back your new boiler, not sure how you get 5 years, unless my math is way off.

A new boiler can crap out too, I monitor my house for temperature in the winter.

I went through this same scenario 5 or 6 years ago, my boiler is still going strong, but it's time is coming.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

So my point on the pay back. If you are at 75% efficiency now and go to 85% efficiency with a new boiler and you burn 1,000 gallons of oil a year. You will save about 100 gallons of oil per year give or take. At $1.50 per gallon you will save about $150.00 per year. For a $5,500 investment it will take you 36 years to pay back your new boiler, not sure how you get 5 years, unless my math is way off.

A new boiler can crap out too, I monitor my house for temperature in the winter.

I went through this same scenario 5 or 6 years ago, my boiler is still going strong, but it's time is coming.

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

Best of luck Biggd, I hope it works out for you.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

Best of luck Biggd, I hope it works out for you.

My boiler at my residence in Ma is over 20 years old. I have had at least one issue every year for the past few years where it has stopped working on the coldest nights. I'm milking it because I plan on selling in a few years when I retire so the next guy can worry about it. No heating coil in that one, I have a external storage tank. Everyones situation is different.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Then I guess my boiler was below 75% and my new boiler is rated 89%. I spent less than 4K on a new boiler and it was money well spent. Like I said, to each his own. I'm happy with my decision to replace it. I'm 63 so now I don't have to deal with it again in my lifetime. And I paid more than $1.50 a gallon this season past winter for oil. I also monitor my heat with a WIFI T-stat but I'm 2 hours away and don't want the hassle of driving up there at a moments notice.
Also, flushing out a heating coil almost never works and a heating contractor would never guarantee it would. 9 times out of 10 you would be throwing money away. Just like the $800 I spent on an emergency repair on my 30 year old boiler the winter before I replaced it. And changing the mixing valve will do nothing if the water coming out of the coil is not hot enough.

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by swnoel

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

Well we certainly all have quite a few differences of opinion. None of us can know who on here is a trusted source or just blowing smoke so you should really seek out a trusted oil burner tech for advice. The best advice I can give is deal with heat issues in the summer because when cold weather roles around and it's an emergency situation the price goes up. When I did mine that's what I did. I bought my own boiler and my installer told me the boilers and burners to stay away from and which ones had the least amount of issues.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by swnoel

There is no boiler with a tankless coil that will get over 55-60% efficiency or is there a boiler that will get you an 89% efficiency! I'm confused where everyone is getting these numbers from? You are right when you suggest never to get the coiled cleaned... your wasting your money. Unfortunately many heating "professionals" aren't professional they'll say and do what ever to get your money...

I have a condensing boiler with on demand hot water. It has 95.5% efficiency.
Check out: https://www.energystar.gov/products/...icient/boilers

Unfortunately there are no oil burners on the list nor is there and on-demand hot water on oil.

A friend of mine replace his oil burner and electric hot water heater with propane condensing boiler with on demand. His energy bill is less from prior year even though propane is a little more expensive. It's in the efficiency.

[ITD]

There are condensing oil boilers that get over 90% AFUE.

I've had a coil cleaned and it worked out just fine for about 5 or so years, then I had it cleaned again and it was good for another 5 or so years. Money was an issue at that point in my life. Then the boiler cracked (Burnham) and I replaced it, I put in a Superstor at the same time and haven't had a problem since.

Biggd wants a new boiler, and that is great, go for it.

The payback numbers are pretty simple math, for an engineer anyway, they may not be perfect, but I suspect they are within 10% at least of being accurate. If you go from 55% to 75% then it would take about 18 years to pay back a $5,500 boiler if you burn about 1,000 gallons per year, which should be pretty close for 100,000 btu boiler and a reasonable house. Unless I screwed up my math, I've been wrong before, but please show me the correct way if I'm wrong.

As far as your issues with your boiler at home Biggd, I suggest you change your contractor. Oil burners aren't rocket science, they are actually pretty simple, especially a contractor grade boiler, as long as you clean them annually and change the parts your service guy recommends, you should not be having problems. I have two houses, the last emergency service call I had was because Fuller ran me dry on automatic delivery. I fired them that day because they would only bring me 10 gallons of oil. That was a few years ago. The guy servicing your boiler makes a big difference.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by ITD

There are condensing oil boilers that get over 90% AFUE.

I've had a coil cleaned and it worked out just fine for about 5 or so years, then I had it cleaned again and it was good for another 5 or so years. Money was an issue at that point in my life. Then the boiler cracked (Burnham) and I replaced it, I put in a Superstor at the same time and haven't had a problem since.

Biggd wants a new boiler, and that is great, go for it.

The payback numbers are pretty simple math, for an engineer anyway, they may not be perfect, but I suspect they are within 10% at least of being accurate. If you go from 55% to 75% then it would take about 18 years to pay back a $5,500 boiler if you burn about 1,000 gallons per year, which should be pretty close for 100,000 btu boiler and a reasonable house. Unless I screwed up my math, I've been wrong before, but please show me the correct way if I'm wrong.

As far as your issues with your boiler at home Biggd, I suggest you change your contractor. Oil burners aren't rocket science, they are actually pretty simple, especially a contractor grade boiler, as long as you clean them annually and change the parts your service guy recommends, you should not be having problems. I have two houses, the last emergency service call I had was because Fuller ran me dry on automatic delivery. I fired them that day because they would only bring me 10 gallons of oil. That was a few years ago. The guy servicing your boiler makes a big difference.

I'm happy with my decision, you're happy with your decision, we are all happy. I'm certainly happy with the service guy that I have now. Let's leave it at that.

[SIKSUKR]

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

I believe they used an acid or some type of cleaner that clears the mineral deposits inside the coil. They basically choke down like a cholesterol choked coronary artery which chokes off the flow of water and the build up prevents heat transfer too. Water treatment helps the problem tremendously, but I have never been a fan of them, the coils.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Curious what you guys are referring to when you say to "clean" your coil. Do you mean internally or the outside of the coil if it has mineral deposits accumulated? Wondering how you clean a coil internally. My Burnham boiler is over 25 years old. I replaced the coil at least 10 years ago as it was leaking into the boiler water. No issues since.

I'm in the auto repair business. We do this on car heater cores for the cheap people that don't want to repair it the right way. I always tell them there is no guarantee. You will pay me the labor to do this whether it works or not. And If it leaks after I'm done or a month from now then you will have to fix it the right way by replacing it. It's a 50/50 shot but eventually it always ends up leaking a few months down the road. If you have had it done more than once and it hasn't leaked then you are one of the lucky ones. Car heater cores use to be copper just like boiler coils. Now they are aluminum and plastic. The new ones are very cheap and pretty much throwaways. They will leak very easily when flushed.