Hot water issue - furnace ?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I beg to differ. There are about 100 units in my HOA. All were built in the mid to late 70's. All were equipped with the latest European 'suitcase' state of the art boilers at the time. Built in Scandinavia they were extremely reliable and efficient. After 35 years, they start to wear out and parts are hard to find. Most of the problems during the 35 years are attributed to the plumbing and not the boilers.

Most if not all the replacements are condensing boilers. Any complaints in the last few years were from faulty installations, faulty zone switches, and circulators. They have nothing to do with the boiler manufacturers. They are added on by HVAC. Seems like the add ons are giving the boiler manufacturers a bad rap. In fact my HVAC guy even told me that when I had concern about the quality of the Rinnai. Talked to a number of Rinnai owners that had their unit for a decade or more have confirmed this fact.

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Biggd

And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

The real expensive homes still have brick or stone chimneys and real wood fireplaces. A brick or stone chimney can add another 10 to 20K to the build so unless it's a multi million dollar house you won't see many anymore. The last house I built 10 years ago a brick chimney with two flues and one fireplace cost me 12K.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Biggd

The real expensive homes still have brick or stone chimneys and real wood fireplaces. A brick or stone chimney can add another 10 to 20K to the build so unless it's a multi million dollar house you won't see many anymore. The last house I built 10 years ago a brick chimney with two flues and one fireplace cost me 12K.

Just replying to your comment that builders love them because they dont have to build expensive chimneys. They dont have too unless somebody wants one. There is no need for one on many of todays high efficiency boilers. In fact, you cant use a chinmey for exhaust draft because the flue temp is so low. You need to have a forced draft.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Just replying to your comment that builders love them because they dont have to build expensive chimneys.They dont have too unless somebody wants one.There is no need for one on many of todays high efficiency boilers.In fact,you cant use a chinmey for exhaust draft because the flue temp is so low.You need to have a forced draft.

I understand that but down here in the expensive areas of Mass they still build brick chimneys on the million dollar homes even though they use high efficiency gas boilers. For instance, I live in Waltham and most of the new homes are under a million. Those new houses have no chimneys and gas fireplace inserts. Next door is high priced Lexington where most new houses start at 2 million and go up from there. Those houses get brick chimneys with real wood fireplaces. Some get multiple brick chimneys even though they have high efficiency boilers. Rich people want what they want and they still want wood burning fireplaces even if they put fake logs in them.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Rich people want what they want and they still want wood burning fireplaces even if they put fake logs in them.

You lose me with the "rich people" comments but I do however see a smiley.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

You lose me with the "rich people" comments but I do however see a smiley.

Well I think people that buy a house in the 2 million and up range are fairly wealthy. You are either paying cash or you have a very LARGE mortgage that would require a very LARGE salary.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

No opinion either way here but with today's high efficiency boilers there really is no need for a chimney unless you don't want a forced draft system. Heck a lot actually have pvc for exhaust flue.

The only thing that can be installed legally with pvc is a gas furnace, unless it's a Lennox and it that case you could not. All boilers need to be vented with polypropylene.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by swnoel

The only thing that can be installed legally with pvc is a gas furnace, unless it's a Lennox and it that case you could not. All boilers need to be vented with polypropylene.

I didnt mean pvc specifically but plastic in general. You knew what I meant. These boilers will discharge flue temps of about 140 degrees which mean they dont need a mortar chimney.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I didnt mean pvc specifically but plastic in general. You knew what I meant. These boilers will discharge flue temps of about 140 degrees which mean they dont need a mortar chimney.

That's NOT true! Those boiler will discharge temps up to 180 degrees! Only furnaces will discharge temps in the 140 degree range. I'm not here to argue with you , but it's apparent you don't understand how these boilers work and I feel some people will get confused by what you're saying.

[SIKSUKR]

Not sure why your calling me out here.You clearly have not done your homework.I was just stating that flue temps on high efficiency boilers in general are too cool to draft properly out a conventional chimney which was the purpose of my response.They would have to have a forced draft.Can they have flue temps higher than 140?Of course.Thats not what the point of my post were.Regular pvc softens at 140 so it would not be my choice but it has been used for years.Would I use it?No.But thats not the point,.I stand by my post.

Because of the special heat exchanger technology used by a condensing
furnace, heat is extracted from the fuel combustion process for a longer period of time, to the point where the combustion exhaust gasses have "cooled" and condensed. The exhaust gasses are depleted of heat until the water condensate drips out of the furnace's heat exchanger and the low-temperature flue gasses escape from special plastic pipe instead of a chimney.
Traditional gas-fired, forced-air furnaces used metal venting, usually routed into a chimney stack, then exhaust the combustion gasses. But in the modern high-efficiency condensing furnaces, special plastic pipe material (most often PVC, ABS or CPVC) is used for air intake.

Generally, for a new condensing water heater or boiler, the stack temperature will be about 20 degrees higher than the water temperature.

http://www.plumbingengineer.com/cont...ial-flue-gases

The point was that chimneys are not needed for these boilers and in fact need a forced draft.And yes it sure seems you are here to ague.I'm done.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Biggd

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

OK, I see you are referring to oil burners. I am referring to gas. No issue there.

As far as builders and developers are concerned, you are absolutely right about cutting cost. You will see inefficient HVAC on all new construction unless the homeowner request otherwise. I see a lot of homes built along an existing natural gas pipeline, not being hooked up. Builders do not want to go through the hassle and inspection of gas lines, but rather put in oil. Again unless the home owner asks.

A lot of homeowners believe the latest RBC includes energy efficiency. Unfortunately it does not. Its up to the homeowners to work with the builders if they want 5 star efficiency.

I talk to one well known builder/developer who claims to be the 'Premier Builder in the Lakes Region' about why the homes he build are not efficient.
'Why pay the additional expense, if the new owner is going to sell the home eventually. After all you can't take it with you and oil is cheap!'

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

OK, I see you are referring to oil burners. I am referring to gas. No issue there.

As far as builders and developers are concerned, you are absolutely right about cutting cost. You will see inefficient HVAC on all new construction unless the homeowner request otherwise. I see a lot of homes built along an existing natural gas pipeline, not being hooked up. Builders do not want to go through the hassle and inspection of gas lines, but rather put in oil. Again unless the home owner asks.

A lot of homeowners believe the latest RBC includes energy efficiency. Unfortunately it does not. Its up to the homeowners to work with the builders if they want 5 star efficiency.

I talk to one well known builder/developer who claims to be the 'Premier Builder in the Lakes Region' about why the homes he build are not efficient.
'Why pay the additional expense, if the new owner is going to sell the home eventually. After all you can't take it with you and oil is cheap!'

No, I was referring to the on demand gas boilers that hang on the wall. I've never seen a suitcase style oil burner that hangs on a wall. Do they even have them?

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by Biggd

No, I was referring to the on demand gas boilers that hang on the wall. I've never seen a suitcase style oil burner that hangs on a wall. Do they even have them?

If they have an oil fired boiler that hangs on the wall, I WANT ONE !

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Biggd

From what I've seen that hasn't been the case. Many circuit board issues. None of the issues have been related to installation. Many more problems than a regular gas boiler. My best friend and my brother inlaw both had them installed in their homes and both have had problems and one had to be replaced after only 5 years. I'm not sure what brand they have, I believe they were Navien, but both are regretting their decisions to install them. Unlike oil fired boilers, regular gas fired boilers almost never need servicing. I built a new house about 10 years ago, which my son now owns. I installed a regular gas boiler with external hot water storage tank. That unit has not been touched since installation while my friends have all had multiple issues with their suitcase style units that are newer.
I see the attraction of not having a dedicated space for a boiler and hot water tank where this unit does both and just hangs on the wall out of the way. And builders love them because they don't need expensive chimneys cutting down the costs of a new house. But I wouldn't install one in my house unless I had limited space issues.

You are right... I wouldn't put one in my house! That being said I service heating equipment including wall hung boilers , not only do they only have warranties for 10-12 years they MUST be serviced yearly! All gas appliances need to be serviced yearly! The 2 biggest problems with these boilers are poor installations and misapplied application. Wall hungs will not give you those high efficiencies placed on a system that requires 180* water, they need to condense to get there! One of the biggest complaints we get are from customers that say it take forever for the house to get warm or that the circulators run forever... both true with outdoor reset on those types of systems! These units were designed for radiant, cast iron, and panel heaters, all low temp applications! I've talked to many that have said that their fuel cost them more now than when they had oil! The combi units are wonderful til something happens and it will and you have neither heat or hot water while being told it will take 1 to 10 days for parts!
For those suggesting Rinaai wall hung water heaters, you need to understand that these have to be flushed yearly or you lose your warranty on the heat exchanger... unless you get someone to lie for you. These also are prone to the screen being plugged and poor water quality creating issues. Why would someone would pay over $3000 for a way to heat their water when they could get it done much cheaper and as cost effective, I'll never know and understand?