WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...

[Major]

Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.

I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult.

I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it.

One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.

I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult.

I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it.

One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III?

Ride a bike, walk ect doesn't matter. I do not think crime is an issue either way as stated my home in LB was broken into and the walked down the tracks at night. My opinion change when I actually experienced the current trail for myself and found it quite enjoyable, I am the last person to be "PC". I also do not think liability is and issue as it is not much different than the current liability situation.

Were I absolutely agree with "Major" is, I do not think that phase III should be place on the shoulders of the tax payers. Private sponsorship, federal funding and donations should be used if not then I do not think phase III should be completed.

[Paugus]

I saw this on the WOW Trail Facebook page last week. Anyone know more about this?

"This week's #throwbackthursday is brought to you by South Down Shores & Long Bay developer John Davidson and the City of Laconia Planning Board circa 1986. "Mr. deHaven questioned if the bike path was public. Davidson explained that by a condition of the Planning Board that a bicycle path was required."

https://www.facebook.com/WOWTrail/po...55337886832071

[jetskier]

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/opini...hat-is-selfish

Jetskier

[Seaplane Pilot]

Playing the "safety" card!

[Major]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Playing the "safety" card!

It's a legitimate concern. During busy times, the forklift travels over the railroad tracks 200+ times a day. If the WOW trail is built, who has the right of way at the intersection of the WOW trail and the boat launch? If the forklift does, how does he stop in time when a bicyclist or a runner blows through the stop sign. Who's liable? Will the insurance obtained by the WOW trail and/or SD/LB protect them from liability?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Major

It's a legitimate concern. During busy times, the forklift travels over the railroad tracks 200+ times a day. If the WOW trail is built, who has the right of way at the intersection of the WOW trail and the boat launch? If the forklift does, how does he stop in time when a bicyclist or a runner blows through the stop sign. Who's liable? Will the insurance obtained by the WOW trail and/or SD/LB protect them from liability?

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

It would have to be quite a pedestrian walkway! Have you seen the forklift used to lift boats up to 26' long? The walkway would have to have a clearance of 15' or more. Anyway, the cost of such a walkway would be trivial compared to the engineering and construction costs involved in the areas near Lakeport Landing, Pickerel Cove, Perch Cove and the Weirs Beach bridge. I bet each section with be $1,000,000 or more.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Major

It would have to be quite a pedestrian walkway! Have you seen the forklift used to lift boats up to 26' long? The walkway would have to have a clearance of 15' or more. Anyway, the cost of such a walkway would be trivial compared to the engineering and construction costs involved in the areas near Lakeport Landing, Pickerel Cove, Perch Cove and the Weirs Beach bridge. I bet each section with be $1,000,000 or more.

Some of the requisite bridges will be as much as 1,000 ft long (ex: Chattel cove). If the bridge is 12' wide (to support a 10' trail and guard rails), then the overall square footage is 12,000 square feet. The cost range for this type of bridge is $150 to $250 per square foot. Therefore it would cost north of about $2M for that bridge alone. Pickerel Cove will require about an 800' bridge so something north of $1.4M. Just saying...

Jetskier

[BroadHopper]

That's a new one! SB/LB is all for the Parade Road to Hilliard Rd route, which comprise of a steep hill that most people would think twice about. The Severance Road cut will be a must nicer proposal if the SB/LB will accept it. I bet because Severance Road cuts through their 'back yard', they may not approve it.

The problem is federal and state grants. They are set up for approval along existing or old RR beds. Where is the money going to come from if they change the route?

Also I believe Class 6 roads are privately owned and may require easements from current deeds. This brings up the Durrell Mountain Road and Hoadley Road fiaso. located on the Gilford and Belmont Line. Both roads are Class 6 and used by 4X4 and ATV for years. After a lengthy battle the court agrees the roads transferred to abutting landowners by some statute of limitation and were declared private properties. Hoadley Road is closed. Durrell Mountain is closed to motorized vehicles except snowmobiles.

The Severance Road proposal is a good one, but it looks like it faced a lot of obstacles.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

That's a new one! SB/LB is all for the Parade Road to Hilliard Rd route, which comprise of a steep hill that most people would think twice about. The Severance Road cut will be a must nicer proposal if the SB/LB will accept it. I bet because Severance Road cuts through their 'back yard', they may not approve it.

The problem is federal and state grants. They are set up for approval along existing or old RR beds. Where is the money going to come from if they change the route?

Also I believe Class 6 roads are privately owned and may require easements from current deeds. This brings up the Durrell Mountain Road and Hoadley Road fiaso. located on the Gilford and Belmont Line. Both roads are Class 6 and used by 4X4 and ATV for years. After a lengthy battle the court agrees the roads transferred to abutting landowners by some statute of limitation and were declared private properties. Hoadley Road is closed. Durrell Mountain is closed to motorized vehicles except snowmobiles.

The Severance Road proposal is a good one, but it looks like it faced a lot of obstacles.

This seems to be some pretty good feedback. Not certain what all the obstacles would be but I sense nothing is insurmountable.

I recently looked at the WOW trail map and one thing I notice is that parking could become a serious problem for the downtown. Assuming the trial is a huge success it may not be far-fetched to assume 500 cars could converge on the downtown and be left parking for four or five hours while people are riding on the trail. That could really create a huge economic downturn in for the downtown. A WOW trail welcome center on Severance could help with such a problem. In the event that the demand for parking exceeded what could be made available near severance there is the additional parking option of Robbie mills Field and Elm Street school.

The welcome center could be operated for profit to benefit the trail and offset the loss of federal funding for the portion that isn't along the tracks.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by baygo

This seems to be some pretty good feedback. Not certain what all the obstacles would be but I sense nothing is insurmountable.

I recently looked at the WOW trail map and one thing I notice is that parking could become a serious problem for the downtown. Assuming the trial is a huge success it may not be far-fetched to assume 500 cars could converge on the downtown and be left parking for four or five hours while people are riding on the trail. That could really create a huge economic downturn in for the downtown. A WOW trail welcome center on Severance could help with such a problem. In the event that the demand for parking exceeded what could be made available near severance there is the additional parking option of Robbie mills Field and Elm Street school.

The welcome center could be operated for profit to benefit the trail and offset the loss of federal funding for the portion that isn't along the tracks.

Baygo - of merit is the fact that the construction of the trail along this proposed route will be much cheaper than along the shore front. It will not involve building bridges or (potentially) dealing with the trestle underpass at the Weirs. In addition, there will be no need for fences or exorbitant insurance
which we know is also of issue.

Jetskier

[Outdoorsman]

During the summer, the South Down Boat Club is a very busy, and a potentially dangerous operation.

Someone needs to contact OSHA about this immediate and imminent threat to public safety!

[laketrout]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Some of the requisite bridges will be as much as 1,000 ft long (ex: Chattel cove). If the bridge is 12' wide (to support a 10' trail and guard rails), then the overall square footage is 12,000 square feet. The cost range for this type of bridge is $150 to $250 per square foot. Therefore it would cost north of about $2M for that bridge alone. Pickerel Cove will require about an 800' bridge so something north of $1.4M. Just saying...

Jetskier

Pickerel Cove is a nice spot the railroad tracks that go along the water at that point is probably 8' wide there is no room for a walking trail without heavy material/landfill modification. The current Pickerel Cove train tracks Causeway over the water would need to be filled in to get the 10' required Wow ROW.

[WakeboardMom]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

Red herring. I live by Trexler's Marina, where on a Saturday morning, the forklift is back-and-forth across the street, folks are checking out of cottages on LI and the trailers in the park so there's that kind of traffic, plus runners, walkers and bikers are on the road, and there's no big issue. It's what constitutes "traffic" here at our lovely lake.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Playing the "safety" card!

I agree the safety card is just a smoke screen. The forklift, people and the train manage to get around the SDBC everyday including the extremely busy holiday weekends without issue I have had my boat there for 10 years

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I agree the safety card is just a smoke screen. The forklift, people and the train manage to get around the SDBC everyday including the extremely busy holiday weekends without issue I have had my boat there for 10 years

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

[Paugus]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

Would this apply? https://www.nhstateparks.org/about-u...-statutes.aspx

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

I completely disagree, people are not morons and many out the "out of towners" are used to running, jogging, biking ect of much busier city streets. The lift, much like the train is also slow moving.

There are other battles to fight if you do not want the trail, such (and most importantly that would effect the everyone in Laconia) is where the funding is coming from that are much more legitimate arguments. Which I am completely on board with, if funds are coming from the city directly or via higher property tax I am completely against it.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

Another reason to have OSHA visit the SD Boat Club. It sounds like a very dangerous operation for the residents of SD/LB. I would be willing to bet that situational awareness is an insufficient reason to operate the way it was described in the LDS letter.

This is a public safety concern after-all.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Another reason to have OSHA visit the SD Boat Club. It sounds like a very dangerous operation for the residents of SD/LB. I would be willing to bet that situational awareness is an insufficient reason to operate the way it was described in the LDS letter.

This is a public safety concern after-all.

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.

Ummm...satire.

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[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Ummm...satire.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

Given his other posts on this thread, I don't think it's satire. I think it is more "belligerent keyboard warrior". If I'm wrong, and it's satire, I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me and let us know that his comments/suggestions were all in jest.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Given his other posts on this thread, I don't think it's satire. I think it is more "belligerent keyboard warrior". If I'm wrong, and it's satire, I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me and let us know that his comments/suggestions were all in jest.

Hyperbole in an attempt to point out absurdity. More specifically, OSHA as a hyperbolic suggestion in response to the anti-trail "concern" for safety.

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[BroadHopper]

I remember when OSHA was formed in the mid 70's. I was a grocery clerk at a large supermarket chain. OSHA made a ruling that if you are working with anything that requires you to work above the neckline you are required to wear a hard hat. Well believe it or not there was a time we were stocking shelves with hard hats on!

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.

I have no first hand experience!

My post was just pointing out how ridiculous that particular argument is. (IMO) If you choose to throw "Its a safety issue" at the wall to see if it sticks, so be it; Just be prepared for other to dispute it.

If public safety is an issue with the private marina (as implied) and they can not operate SAFELY within their property, than it is an OSHA issue not a WOW trail issue.

Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy city[/b]

Choose your battles wisely is what I was taught.

Originally Posted by thinkxingu
Hyperbole in an attempt to point out absurdity. More specifically, OSHA as a hyperbolic suggestion in response to the anti-trail "concern" for safety.

You hit the nail on the head.

Sarcasm does not always come across in the written word the way you envision it in your head.

Thank you