Something New From Marine Patrol

[SAMIAM]

I was stopped the other day by a very nice MP officer who asked to take a picture of my boat (2015 Bennington)
I was towing tubers at the time with two spotters on the rear facing lounge seats in the stern.
He explained that a new regulation called for not allowing passengers to ride in rear facing seats....they consider it to be the same as riding directly on the stern or a swim platform.
My rear facing seats have surrounding rails with a gate in the back and he wanted the picture to take issue with the new regulation with his supervisor.
He allowed us to continue and promised to look me up when a final decision came down.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I was stopped the other day by a very nice MP officer who asked to take a picture of my boat (2015 Bennington)
I was towing tubers at the time with two spotters on the rear facing lounge seats in the stern.
He explained that a new regulation called for not allowing passengers to ride in rear facing seats....they consider it to be the same as riding directly on the stern or a swim platform.
My rear facing seats have surrounding rails with a gate in the back and he wanted the picture to take issue with the new regulation with his supervisor.
He allowed us to continue and promised to look me up when a final decision came down.

That's sounds completely ridiculous! I have the same setup in my Bennington. Why on earth would rear facing loungers within the playpen and rail be any issue whatsoever!?? As a matter of fact and as you know the smoothest and safest ride is in the stern! Lawmakers and legislatures really need to get a life and should be working on way more important items than this. Your tax dollars hard at work!

Dan

[wifi]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

That's sounds completely ridiculous! I have the same setup in my Bennington. Why on earth would rear facing loungers within the playpen and rail be any issue whatsoever!?? As a matter of fact and as you know the smoothest and safest ride is in the stern! Lawmakers and legislatures really need to get a life and should be working on way more important items than this. Your tax dollars hard at work!

Dan

What he said !

[DickR]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

....
He explained that a new regulation called for not allowing passengers to ride in rear facing seats....they consider it to be the same as riding directly on the stern or a swim platform....

I tried to search on this to see the wording of this "new regulation." I couldn't find anything. Does anyone know where in all the state's endless RSAs or whatever we can see this?

Someone from MP posts here from time to time. Please chime in on this one.

When I'm towing someone, I certainly want the observer to be facing rearward, so as to be able to do continuous observing, not just craning the neck back in that direction every so often, according to how much it hurts the neck.

[Hillcountry]

Who the hell comes up with this crap!!?? Sheesh.

[chachee52]

Reading between the lines, I read the post as the MP was trying to show that not all rear facing seats have rails like you are describing your boats do. I know my friends does not have rails on his so if the boat gets jerked around someone might slide of. So the MP was trying to state that it might be too broad of a rule and using your boat as a reason not to have the rule as "no one can ride in rear facing seats".
Dunno, just a different way of looking at it.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by chachee52

Reading between the lines, I read the post as the MP was trying to show that not all rear facing seats have rails like you are describing your boats do. I know my friends does not have rails on his so if the boat gets jerked around someone might slide of. So the MP was trying to state that it might be too broad of a rule and using your boat as a reason not to have the rule as "no one can ride in rear facing seats".
Dunno, just a different way of looking at it.

If that's the case they would also have to outlaw sitting backwards on any jet ski classified as a boat. So much for tubing behind a jet ski!....

Dan

[Skip]

I searched through the NH RSAs and Administrative Rules sections but could find nothing referencing what was told to the boater in the first post.

If I get a chance tomorrow I'll make an inquiry to Gifford and post what I find....

[Descant]

Thanks, Skip. We'll all be interested. We see new boats with huge swim platforms and rear facing seats. I agree that this is probably not a great place to ride at speed, but I'm unaware of a new regulation, certainly not a new RSA Perhaps a mew interpretation to deal with new boat/seat designs?

[ishoot308]

I have someone from the Marine Trades Association looking into now as well....

Dan

[WinniMarine]

SAMIAM Please e-mail call me at the marina (603) 524-8380. I'd like to discuss with you in more detail exactly what Marine Patrol said. I'm president of the NH Marine Trades and we've heard nothing of this new regulation. Want to make sure our boaters' interest are protected. Thanks Julie Marsh.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by chachee52

Reading between the lines, I read the post as the MP was trying to show that not all rear facing seats have rails like you are describing your boats do. I know my friends does not have rails on his so if the boat gets jerked around someone might slide of. So the MP was trying to state that it might be too broad of a rule and using your boat as a reason not to have the rule as "no one can ride in rear facing seats".
Dunno, just a different way of looking at it.

That was my feeling also. I've seen wake boats with rear facing seats that are right at the transom without rails. I think he wanted to show the difference

[LIforrelaxin]

Folks lets not get worked up here. As some other eluded to there are many situations that MP officers need to be aware off, and a broad stroke was probably applied in a statement, that all "aft facing seats are not usable while under way"... The truth of the mater, is that those rear facing loungers are probably legal to use while underway....

What is not legal to use was is many MFG.s are doing with bow riders and CC boats, is butting a seat to be used in conjunction with the Swim deck when you are at anchor... those are most certainly not designed to be used while underway, and I have seen a case or two of that happening....

The Marine Patrol has a hard job, interpreting the true intentions of the law. I applaud this officer for approaching taking a picture, and then bring it up with his superiors.... they aren't out to ruin anyone's fun....

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Folks lets not get worked up here. As some other eluded to there are many situations that MP officers need to be aware off, and a broad stroke was probably applied in a statement, that all "aft facing seats are not usable while under way"... The truth of the mater, is that those rear facing loungers are probably legal to use while underway....

What is not legal to use was is many MFG.s are doing with bow riders and CC boats, is butting a seat to be used in conjunction with the Swim deck when you are at anchor... those are most certainly not designed to be used while underway, and I have seen a case or two of that happening....

The Marine Patrol has a hard job, interpreting the true intentions of the law. I applaud this officer for approaching taking a picture, and then bring it up with his superiors.... they aren't out to ruin anyone's fun....

Related to Marine Patrol, but not seating. We were watching the boating in Alton Bay and the young son of a guy buttoning up his pontoon boat next door was on the dock with dad. 1st or 2nd grade age. MP slow cruising down the bay. Young boy wave to him, and MP turned and came over to the dock and talked to the boy for a few minutes. When MP left, he wished the dad a Happy Father's Day, and gave a final wave to the kid. Nice job, MP, for making a young boy's day. 👍
Back to the thread at hand.

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[Rich]

If there are 'new' laws, or interpretations of existing laws, I'd like to be aware of them, as we know "ignorance is no excuse".

The only law I know of has been referenced in other threads, basically "no straddling of the bow, no sitting on the gunnels or on the transom".

How this gets interpreted into "no sitting on the bow area" and now "no sitting on aft facing seats" is beyond me, unless it's considered a general 'unsafe practice'.

Perhaps the MP was offering a 'safety warning', which I'm always happy to receive, as we can all learn something, telling the owner of a particular boat that what the MP observed may not be safe for the particular boat and situation.

For example, having someone sitting on the bow area of a small 21 ft boat, may be a lot different than someone sitting on the bow area of a 42 ft boat.

I've also heard stories that people have been warned (vs cited) about not standing on a swim platform when pulling into a slip, when trying to tie up a boat at a slip.

If there are laws about these things, we should all know about them. Of course, if it's a safety recommendation, then that's a different story, but it's good to learn safety first!

So far most have only been able to cite:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../270-d-mrg.htm

RSA 270-D:7 prohibiting the riding the gunwale of a boat or straddling its bow or transom

Perhaps the general 'careless and negligent operation' rule could be cited, but could this be open to interpretation depending on the circumstances including the particular boat:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...0/270-29-a.htm

270:29-a Careless and Negligent Operation of Boats. – Any person who shall operate a power boat upon any waters of the state in a careless and negligent manner or so that the lives and safety of the public are endangered shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

I'm a bit surprised that only 'power boats' are mentioned in the above RSA, but I'm not a lawyer, nor a legislator.

IMHO, I'd like to see more people stopped when dragging their kids on a tube behind the boat when going through a busy narrow channel, but that's my opinion of an unsafe practice.

I'd like to understand and learn here. I fully support the MP and what they do!

[Skip]

Late last night the on duty communications supervisor acknowledged my inquiry and said she would pass it on to the Lieutenant for an answer....

[jbolty]

I have never owned a proper boat and have no dog in this fight but my first thought regarding rear facing seats was how would that ban square with the requirement to have a watcher keeping eye on water skiers. It's not unusual for new laws to be conflicting with old ones or just not well thought out generally.

[SIKSUKR]

Do either of these setups look like yours Samiam? I guess I could see where they wouldnt like the exposed one but if you have one similar to the one with these railings then I dont see the problem

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Do either of these setups look like yours Samiam? I guess I could see where they wouldnt like the exposed one but if you have one similar to the one with these railings then I dont see the problem

SS, if you're operating (or even stationary) the one on the left, then MP is going to pinch you anyway for those green LED lights! Might as well sell everything and stay locked up in our houses for our own "safety"...

NH is no longer the Live Free or Die state.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

SS, if you're operating (or even stationary) the one on the left, then MP is going to pinch you anyway for those green LED lights! Might as well sell everything and stay locked up in our houses for our own "safety"...

NH is no longer the Live Free or Die state.

I think you can legally use those lights if you are docked.

Count me as one who has no problem with night time boating illumination laws being enforced on open water. I don't want any ambiguity or confusion at all when I encounter another boat at night. Green lights all around a boat are an incredibly bad idea.

[Phantom]

Dave -

I too boat and am very comfortable navigating at night -- but what I do not understand is why MP will not allow me to run (what I call) my anchor light in addition to my pole 360.

There has been some controversy here already about the term I use -- what I am referring to is a transom mounted white light which is visible roughly 160-180 deg from the stern view and tends to light up my stern & swim platform.

I am a HUGE fan of being able to make sure no one runs up my stern as we have seen in the past. In fact, legal or not - when leaving firework displays (at headway speed or so) I will always run my "blue" under platform lights until the crowd has dispersed. MP has never hassled me for that - yet.

And as for me, having a bright white at the waterline in addition to higher up (over the Bimi) 360 where they tend to blend in with shore lights is a plus -- so one would think -- but not MP ..... and thus did not have one installed on this boat for the first time in a long list of boats I have owned.


.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Phantom

And as for me, having a bright white at the waterline in addition to higher up (over the Bimi) 360 where they tend to blend in with shore lights is a plus -- so one would think -- but not MP ..... and thus did not have one installed on this boat for the first time in a long list of boats I have owned..

I wonder the effect is on the boats following you with 2 bright white lights facing them.

On the same subject: It is always aggravating to see someone out at night running with their docking lights on or repeatedly using a hand held spotlight, ruining their night vision as well as yours.

I prefer the inside of the boat to be dark, the darker the better. I even put a towel over the dashboard to eliminate distraction from the dashboard lights.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Dave -

I too boat and am very comfortable navigating at night -- but what I do not understand is why MP will not allow me to run (what I call) my anchor light in addition to my pole 360.

There has been some controversy here already about the term I use -- what I am referring to is a transom mounted white light which is visible roughly 160-180 deg from the stern view and tends to light up my stern & swim platform.

I am a HUGE fan of being able to make sure no one runs up my stern as we have seen in the past. In fact, legal or not - when leaving firework displays (at headway speed or so) I will always run my "blue" under platform lights until the crowd has dispersed. MP has never hassled me for that - yet.

And as for me, having a bright white at the waterline in addition to higher up (over the Bimi) 360 where they tend to blend in with shore lights is a plus -- so one would think -- but not MP ..... and thus did not have one installed on this boat for the first time in a long list of boats I have owned.


.

You cannot legally have more than one light visible from behind. Simple fix would be to block the tall all-around light so that it is only visible from 112.5° on the port side through dead ahead to 112.5° on the starboard side (same as red and green lights). Then ensure that the stern white light can only be seen 67.5 degrees both sides off-center and is visible 2 nautical miles away.

[noreast]

People all over the country are installing green LED's all over their boat, and they get very aggravated when you tell them how idiotic it is. I agree with as dark an interior as possible at night. I have the blue all over my boat but never use them on winni, But I do on smaller lakes putting around. On the subject, I was told by a few dealers that you need some type of railing on an open backed pontoon, like the 2nd picture above, So I've assumed that the 1st is not legal???

[TiltonBB]

It will be interesting to see how they differentiate where rails are needed and where they aren't. Since Jet skis, 3 passengers and up, are registered as boats but I don't see any rails on them.

If you look at the tiki hut boats that are being marketed on the lake I would think that there would be some concern about falling off of your bar stool while underway. Just sayin'

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

It will be interesting to see how they differentiate where rails are needed and where they aren't. Since Jet skis, 3 passengers and up, are registered as boats but I don't see any rails on them.

If you look at the tiki hut boats that are being marketed on the lake I would think that there would be some concern about falling off of your bar stool while underway. Just sayin'

Re: Tiki boats. Probably a case of legislation not catching up with new boating styles.😉😁
Dave

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[ishoot308]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't NMMA set the standards for all boats and their safety requirements on a national level??

Dan

[Sal]

Could it be that the "authorities" want the spotter(s) to be
in front and in the view of the operator, so that the operator can see,
immediately, that the spotter(s) have something to report?

[DBreskin]

Many purpose-built ski boats have this type of rear-facing seat:

[DBreskin]

My boat has two rear-facing seats:

[V ger]

Phantom, two white lights shown astern not in conjunction with various combinations of red, green, yellow, or white indicate a vessel greater than 50 meters at anchor.

[wifi]

Maybe it is just your government at work ?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dave R

You cannot legally have more than one light visible from behind. Simple fix would be to block the tall all-around light so that it is only visible from 112.5° on the port side through dead ahead to 112.5° on the starboard side (same as red and green lights). Then ensure that the stern white light can only be seen 67.5 degrees both sides off-center and is visible 2 nautical miles away.

Regarding two stern lights:

I believe that two white lights from behind indicates a sailboat under sail and you must yield right of way. Said sail boat must switch to one rear facing white light when powered by a motor or engine.


https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvis...on-Light-Rules

So there is some logical reason for this, but this is a topic for a different thread.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Do either of these setups look like yours Samiam? I guess I could see where they wouldnt like the exposed one but if you have one similar to the one with these railings then I dont see the problem

Right.....mine is the one on the bottom with rails and a gate. Interesting comparison. The other boat has rear facing seats with no rails.....wonder what the decision will be.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Right.....mine is the one on the bottom with rails and a gate. Interesting comparison. The other boat has rear facing seats with no rails.....wonder what the decision will be.

If our esteemed legislature has any say in the matter, I suspect that they'll require seat belts and shoulder harnesses for any rear-facing seats in order to legally operate. Safety first!

[rander7823]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

If our esteemed legislature has any say in the matter, I suspect that they'll require seat belts and shoulder harnesses for any rear-facing seats in order to legally operate. Safety first!

Don't forget Airbags

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

SS, if you're operating (or even stationary) the one on the left, then MP is going to pinch you anyway for those green LED lights! Might as well sell everything and stay locked up in our houses for our own "safety"...

NH is no longer the Live Free or Die state.

I miss you.

[V ger]

Rich, the West Marine information you posted clearly says that you must display EITHER a separate stern light or the white section of a masthead tri-color but not both. West Marine is also wrong in saying that sailboats motor sailing must display a black cone apex downward as this is only required of vessels 12 meters or greater in length. The "experts" at various marine boutiques are not the most reliable source of information in this area. Refer instead to 33 CFR or COLREGs and then N. H. boating laws which often so distort terms and concepts as to make boating less safe.

[Rich]

V-ger,

I only used the WM page as an easy diagram, of course our laws control things.

I thought that I remembered this from my boating certificate course, there was a question, something to the effect of: "If at night you are comeupon two white lights in front of you, what should you do", if I remember correctly the answer was something in the line of "two white lights mean a sailboat under sail power, yield ROW".

But I could and probably am wrong here, I also have a tendency to remember old rules I learned as a kid on salt water. As an example, at the boating course I attended to earn my NH NASBLA boating certificate, I ended up in a discussion with the instructor over the fact that on the ocean, the 'cans' used to be black in color in the past. He stated that "no, they were always green".

To clarify, and 'end the discussion' I ended up calling a family member who was on the coast guard. He confirmed that years ago the CG had to pull all the black cans and paint them green as the regulations had changed, he was stationed out of Newburyport and was one of the crew at the time that had to repaint all the cans in the area. So my memory was correct (that one time), and I guess my boating experience pre-dated the instructor of the class, even though he seemed to have more grey hairs at the time than I did.

Thanks for the clarification, I'll do some more homework. I always thought a sailboat under power required two stern facing white lights.

Checking this link on the NH boat-ed website, it doesn't mention two stern lights:
https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...102_700153762/

Perhaps I'm a bit confused (it wouldn't be the first time) as here it defines a Masthead Light as not being used by a vessel under sail:
https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...102_700153618/

Masthead Light: This white light shines forward and to both sides and is required on all power-driven vessels. (On power-driven vessels less than 39.4 feet in length, the masthead light and sternlight may be combined into an all-round white light; power-driven vessels 39.4 feet in length or longer must have a separate masthead light.) A masthead light must be displayed by all vessels when under engine power. The absence of this light indicates a sailing vessel because sailboats under sail display only sidelights and a sternlight.

So my memory of the question on the exam was probably a bit off (seems that I had it backwards! My dyslexia in action!), in that a boat under sail you will only see red/green sidelights, and no white light above it. This would indicate a vessel under sail power, as a boat under power would always show a white light above the side-lights, no?

I'm not saying this is the 'law', but here's a good reference of what nav lights look like at night:
http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/lights.php

I'm sure glad I'm not a commercial operator so I don't need to try to remember all of the combinations of lights on that page!

as an example, Vessel under sail from forward:


Vessel under power from forward:


My apologies for getting this backwards and causing any confusion.

Again, sorry to get off topic for this thread.

[persistence]

A sail boat under power, is a power boat. meaning they have have to follow the same rules. As far as I remember, as long as the motor is running, they are under power. The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

So, if under power, should have the same nav lights.

red / green sidelights
masthead
stern


Here's USCG info on the forward apex.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule25

e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld]

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Rich

V-ger,


I'm sure glad I'm not a commercial operator so I don't need to try to remember all of the combinations of lights on that page!

as an example, Vessel under sail from forward:


Vessel under power from forward:


My apologies for getting this backwards and causing any confusion.

Again, sorry to get off topic for this thread.

Actually, not off topic at all--these photos are a great illustration of why we should give marine patrol the benefit of the doubt when they propose/enforce rules that can seem tough.

It's easy to discount risk or assume everything will be fine as we sit at our computers. It's tougher, just by this example, to look at 2 or 3 dots of light in the dark, after a long day, and a beer or 3, with passengers distracting us...

Thanks!

[V ger]

Rich your instructor may have been as gray as yourself or me for that matter but must have been a green horn boater not to have known about cans having once been black. The change to green was a good thing. I remember circling a black can one foggy night to verify it's number and only able to see the reflective numbers despite having 2 sealed beam lights trained on it from a distance of about 25 feet. One change that causes confusion was changing the term "steaming light" to "masthead light". While most power driven vessels carry the masthead at the mast head many sailboats have the masthead light mounted on the forward edge of the mast and employ a masthead tricolor light to conserve energy when sailing at night or in foggy conditions. More anon.

[persistence]

And since we have the big girl on the lake... don't forget the Mount should have 2 mastheads. the forward one lower than the aft. This helps determine over 50m and the heading, along with the sidelights. .

This thread has been a good one to brush up as we have officially sailed into summer !

Thanks All!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by persistence

And since we have the big girl on the lake... don't forget the Mount should have 2 mastheads. the forward one lower than the aft. This helps determine over 50m and the heading, along with the sidelights. .

This thread has been a good one to brush up as we have officially sailed into summer !

Thanks All!

The mount has way too many lights to be legal for night operation (I'm guessing), but I'm glad it does, looks cool at night.

[John E]

I have to believe that MP is reacting to the transom seats on many of the wake and surf boats such as this,

[Phantom]

same is true on my Crown ...... (center filler cushion is removed) ......

But NO ONE is allowed to sit there while underway (even headway speed)



.

[wifi]

Wonder if there will be a market elsewhere, that you could sell you boat for big bucks when it becomes illegal in NH ? Too much government, not enough common sense.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by wifi

Wonder if there will be a market elsewhere, that you could sell you boat for big bucks when it becomes illegal in NH ? Too much government, not enough common sense.

Florida should be no problem. Even LED lights can be used under way. No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Florida should be no problem. Even LED lights can be used under way. No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

So much for "Live Free Or Die"

[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

...No Marine Patrol attack boats swooping in on families, minding their own business on a nice evening cruise.

Hyperbole much?

[Descant]

I'll trade NH safety statistics for Florida's.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by kawishiwi

Hyperbole much?

That's the best response you can come up with?

[noreast]

Originally Posted by Descant

I'll trade NH safety statistics for Florida's.

A nation that sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. Or something along those lines...

[tis]

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

[noreast]

Originally Posted by tis

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

Mostly for water sports, sit and gear up. Great for fishing while not underway as well. Some of the high end pontoons have open sterns, Great for lazing around, but, without a rail, you can't use them while underway so you lose some valuable seating.

[tis]

Agree, noreast. But of course the same people that need labels that coffee is hot, would not use these seats properly.

[Skip]

Lt. McLain from the NHMP responded to my inquiry regarding this thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond LT...I know how busy you officers are, especially on summer weekends like this!

The email is stamped confidential, so I will paraphrase her response:

There is no new law or regulation regarding the issue under discussion. If the rear facing seat(s) are enclosed by railings, gunwales, etc. then these seating arrangements are typically approved by the manufacturer for use underway and are legal.

However, the LT and her personnel have noted an increasing number of vessels equipped with open rear facing seating. The interpretation comes when a determination needs to be made if the manufacturer intended for this seating to be used underway. The LT recommends that if you have questions about the legality of the seating that you question the manufacturer (maybe through your dealer?) as to its proper usage.

And, as always, she encourages any boater to feel free to contact her office with this or any general boating question.

I have always found the Marine Patrol to be very responsive to citizen inquiries, and encourage anyone to take the LT up on her offer should you need a definitive answer to a boating question!

Skip

[FlyingScot]

Thanks, Skip. I agree the Marine Patrol are terrific and we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

[John E]

Originally Posted by tis

I understand about freedoms and rules and regulations and all, but still, I cannot see manufacturer's coming up with seats like those. They are just asking for trouble if used while underway IMHO. Could they be really intended for rafting and nothing else?

Far more dangerous with and IO than an inboard, IMO. Illegal in either case.