MP Patrols

[Frdxplorer]

Quick question for anyone who might know. Now that ice out has been declared, when do the Marine Patrol start their patrols. Does it begin right away or do they wait for more boats to be launched.

[Just Sold]

The MP is out there as soon as the ice is out.

About 2 weeks ago they were doing officer boat training at the docks in Glendale.

[DoTheMath]

You'll know the training when you see it, it will be the group of kids being dropped off & picked up by their parents at the docks. They are too young to drive but the NH MP has no trouble giving them a few hours of training and then sending them out in a boat to make out water-ways "safer". I just don't get it... (after 35 years on this lake) they need to turn that detail over to the State Police and call it a day! :rolleyes:

Does anyone know what the other lakes in the US do as far as patroling goes? I just think it would (truly) be a better and safer lake if we had real experienced officers out there and not kids looking for a cushy job during summer break from college. There are one or two MP out there that really are good, the rest - heh - forget it!

Just my .02
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[Tired of Waiting]

We don't have a MP here. The Wildlife Law Enforcement department does it. They are full time law officers. Very professional and ALL have completed the full police academy.

ToW

[Senter Cove Guy]

I doubt what you saw were kids being trained as Seasonal MP Officers. Check out this link:

Seasonal MP

[DoTheMath]

Actually, I didn't see anything, that was a joke... as in wink-wink- nudge-nudge. Typically the majority of the MP out there are young, inexperienced and have no clue what they are doing, from several standpoints. As for the job desc.:

Minimum Requirements:


Because the position of seasonal Marine Patrol Officer Trainee is a certified part-time police officer in the State of New Hampshire, the minimum requirements are accordingly demanding.
Minimum 18 years of age at time of appointment.
U.S. Citizen.
No criminal convictions.
Valid driver?s license.
High school graduate or G.E.D.
Excellent physical health.
Ability to pass all elements of the pre-employment selection process.
Ability to attend and successfully complete all required Marine Patrol training and certification.
Ability to work varied shifts, weekends and holidays.

Oh yeah - "demanding" requirements... I think they forgot a couple. " Must have a pulse and be able to speak decent English"! Are you kidding me!?! That is why I said that job should be turned over to the State Police!
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[webmaster]

DoTheMath, do you have a specific complaint or are you just bashing?

[DoTheMath]

I can think of two instances (one for noise mind you :rolleyes: ) that I was personally involved in that were handled with total and careless disregard on the part of the MP. I can't begin to tell you how many I have been witness to that just reinforce the need to bring on REAL, not "part-time" law enforcement officials to do this job. An 18 year old with minimal training and a big ego just doesn't cut it on the lake any more. I have been on the lake since I was 10 months old, (I'm 35 now) and with the changes that have taken place over the years, there is no way that job should be left to a group of part-time amatures these days! I am not "bashing" - (I have better things to do with my time), I am calling it like I see it. If we are going to have laws and enforce them, we need to have it done by full time law enforcement personnel! Next time you have an hour or two to kill, get in a boat - or just go sit on the end of the dock at Weirs beach on a Saturday and watch the antics of the 100's of boaters going in and out of the channel and see how the "mall police" handle it, it's scary!
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[tricia1218]

Paying just over $11.00 an hour, good luck finding full time proffesional law enforcement for the job. I don't know where you live but police charge at least $200.00 a detail where I live.

[JDeere]

I do think it is time for NH to hire full time permanent people for the job of MP. I have no idea what those people would do in the winter but I suspect NH could figure that out. If it is budget issues then raise the cost of boat registration. A few extra dollars out of a boaters pocket is well worth a trained, permanent and professional MP staff.

[DoTheMath]

I live just west of Boston in the burbs... and my feeling on it is, take an assortment of State Police and let them sign up for the duty - if they want it - and pay them their regular rate. This would be their "job" for the summer months, much like a motorcycle cop. I find it hard to believe that there is anyone out there of sound mind that finds the current state of the MP satisfactory. That entire organization needs to be reevaluated and revamped, bring in the real deal and manage it accordingly. I'd even pay extra on my property taxes, or move for some reallocation of current funds(being on the water and not using the schools up there) to help fund the effort. Or - in addition - maybe have the state generate a seasonal "pass" for vacationers (non-prop. owners) when they come up for a week or two, $25 per week per boat added to the launch fee. And hit the boat rental places - $25 per unique rental passed on to the customer, you know they will hit something and need the help of the MP's at one point or another... :rolleyes:
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[webmaster]

If you want to criticise a Lakes Region business, agency, service, etc. here that's fine as long as you are specific and reasonable.

I won't allow this Forum to be used for gratuitous bashing. Your opening comments came close.

[Skip]

Ahhhh, time to bash the Marine Patrol again...regardless of the facts.

Let me try to deflate a few myths constantly posted here...and usually anonymously.

First, the part-time issue. New Hampshire is a small state with a limited police presence. Seems most people up here like it that way. A good portion of the sworn 6,000 officers in this State are part-time. Some are young men & women (at least 18 years of age) just breaking in to the profession. Most are gainfully employed full time elsewhere, and do the job for the sense of satisfaction it gives them. Unlike the thousands of volunteer firefighters and EMT's that protect the State for free, these individuals get a small sum for their efforts.

The Marine Patrol is no different demographically then the dozens of other police departments across the State. A part-time MP may be a full time college student, a regular police officer or firefighter, a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse or a mechanic. Believe me when I tell you that the personnel of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol are a mirror image of the people they are sworn to protect and serve. They hold all types of "regular" civilian jobs, are of both sex and vary vastly in age from the young to the retiree.

And because there are dozens of men & women willing to do the job for the pay they receive, because of their love of the profession (and the ubnderstanding of their family and friends) boating remains and enjoyable and affordable pursuit in New Hampshire.

Do they sometimes make mistakes? Sure....don't you? Remember, no one likes getting caught doing something stupid and many people have difficulty admitting they've done wrong, including me. When you read the anonymous posts here decrying treatment people have received at the hands of an MP just remember the mindset of the indivdual at the time of the contact. Ever watch a few episodes of Cops? Those traffic stop tapes are really an eye opener as to how some people behave when caught in less than fortunate circumstances.

I wish the MP's had more resources. Newer equipment. More personnel. Better pay.

But what I wish the most for is that more people would appreciate, understand and respect the sometimes thankless job these folks do on a daily basis to keep fools like you and me safe on the water.

Bash the Mp's all you want. These men & women are dedicated professionals....no matter how many hours they put in a week, and no matter how well you try to distort their mission, dedication or motivation. Regardless of your criticism they will be there tomorrow, next week or next year to keep us all safe. And regardless of your ignorance, they'll always be there to pull your butt out of whatever jam you manage yourself into.

Sorry Don....had to get that off my chest!

[Jan]

Ahhh...a voice of reason. Thanks Skip!

And thanks to the MP for being there for us even though you are underappreciated and underpaid.

[NBR]

Three Cheers For Skip

[DoTheMath]

I have to disagree with a good chunk of what I have just read. For starters, "gratuitous bashing" - I wasn't even close! Come on Don, re-read it and you'll see for yourself. I was being fair and objective - and reasonable - and speaking from personal experience. How tight do you want to "police" this forum, to the point that anyones opionon that may be just the silghtest bit strong, you're going to toss?

Secondly, sure we all make mistakes. Growing up summering on this lake for the last 35 years you will be hard-pressed to find anyone that respects the lake, the people and all that it represents more than I do. I could sit here and spout off about my experiences with the MP, and say what you want, if I had one encounter on tape - Mr. MP would have been out of a job that day! Being about 30 at the time, I bit my tounge, took his crap for about 45 min. and parted ways. I contacted Mr. David Barrett over it all and he basically told me it was our word against the MP's and to hang it up and go home. Didn't even want to hear about it! Now, you tell me - professional organization, whatever! It went so far as to involve the management of the marina that the incident took place at, they backed me on the deal - and still nothing!

Skip, I don't know who you are or why you have your opionion as you do, but like mine it's not all-together right or wrong, it's just your opionion. I happen to like the small-town feel of the lakes region, and the people that live and / or own a second (or third) home up there are great! But I genuinely believe that the MP as a whole needs to be revamped, as it falls short in several areas. I am not misinformed, I am not ingnorant and I am sure not hiding behind anything. I don't go around "breaking the rules and then get caught and get all bent out of shape". I have refused to have good friends back up to my house to visit for tossing the slightest bit of trash overboard, I have no trouble "policing" myself and my company. To call what is there now professional and right, is just wrong.
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[GWC...]

Initial post: ***** You'll know the training when you see it, it will be the group of kids being dropped off & picked up by their parents at the docks. They are too young to drive but the NH MP has no trouble giving them a few hours of training and then sending them out in a boat to make out water-ways "safer". *****

Follow-up post: ***** Actually, I didn't see anything, that was a joke... as in wink-wink- nudge-nudge. *****

Another follow-up post: ***** I have to disagree with a good chunk of what I have just read. For starters, "gratuitous bashing" - I wasn't even close! Come on Don, re-read it and you'll see for yourself. I was being fair and objective - and reasonable - and speaking from personal experience. How tight do you want to "police" this forum, to the point that anyones opionon that may be just the silghtest bit strong, you're going to toss? *****


You'll know the training when you see it, it will be the group of kids being dropped off & picked up by their parents at the docks. They are too young to drive...

Actually, I didn't see anything...

For starters, "gratuitous bashing" - I wasn't even close! I was being fair and objective - and reasonable - and speaking from personal experience.

Are you sure?

[Long Bay Guy]

Just wrong! I think they do an excellent job. My experience with them has been limited. In spite of having a “go fast style boat”, I have never been pulled over. I have met several officers and always found them to be knowledgeable and pleasant. Several years ago my wife was injured while we were swimming off the back of my boat (1997 or 1998 I don't remember which), the first one on scene was a young MP officer (I think he was around 22 years old), he was very helpful and quick to summon the medical help we needed. He stayed there the entire time (helpful as it kept the wake down from passing boats). We were very happy that he was available and responded so quickly.

I happen the like the way we do things in NH (having lived here most of my life). Sure we lack many “big city ways” but that’s why I live here. Part-time Police, Fire, etc., seems to work well. If it isn’t broke…

[DoTheMath]

GWC~ Nice way to edit and twist my post, but no! You obviously missed my point, did you notice this guy ----> at the end of the sentence? That was my humorous way of pointing out one of the largest short-commings in the MP system, the way it is run and by whom. The good ones out there I can count on one hand an have a finger or two left over. Tim Dunleavy is a perfect example of what an MP should strive to be, (and no we are not related or even friends, that's just from my dealings with him in the past, on and off the water). However I still believe that it should be turned over to the State Police, made a full-blown division of the SP and handled accordingly.

Think about it people, with the way things have changed over the last 30+ years, can you HONESTLY say that the MP is even close to sufficent, as it has not changed - to speak of - to keep up!? You really need to think outside the box a bit. It has nothing to do with big city vs. up-country ways, it has to do with protecting the lake as a resource and the people that enjoy it. I don't see the current set up being near sufficent to handle the changes... and that is speaking from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
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[JDeere]

DotheMath may be unjustly harsh.........or more likely he was trolling to stir the pot but the fact is MP would be better served by a higher paid year round force.



People get better at their jobs with experience and the current system makes it difficult for someone to do that. No bashing here. I respect that work that MP does. But I would prefer that they were a stronger presence then they are today.



I believe MP would say the same thing.

[DoTheMath]

JD ~ Nope, wasn't trolling to stir it up, and yeah I guess it would be considered a bit harsh but as you can tell, it is difficult to infer inflection in a forum environment. Not to mention I feel pretty strongly about this subject, can't you tell!? Thanks for your (partial) support, makes me think that there is more than just one of us that thinks the MP is inadequate (overall) as it currently stands.

Happy boating to you all, I'm looking forward to another great summer season!!
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[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Long Bay Guy

If it isn’t broke…

Sorry, but it is broke.

Fifteen years ago, the MPs were up to the job; now, however, they've been swamped by too many clueless boaters/Jet-Skiers.

I've had to "call off" the MPs when too much time elapsed between my initial call and the:

1) drunk Jet-Skier and unwilling/underaged/drunk female passenger
2) two small boys in two unlighted boats after dark
3) "go-fast-style-boat" has completed filming his two Jet-Ski buddies jumping his offshore's wake.
4) serial "flasher" in a power boat.

(And that's just what I can recall right now from last season!)

Unfortunately, NH has allowed too many people who want to violate too many rules a "free pass". Boaters and Bikers who couldn't get away with their "antics" in M............ Ma........... [their nearby home state]... do it at Lake Winnipesaukee.

As another has mentioned here, I haven't met one MP officer that wasn't courteous. There's just not enough officers to meet the demand of responsible boaters who want to be safe and left alone.

[Lakegeezer]

On general purposes, there should be less security forces. The MP does a great job of protecting people from real dangers, but they are not dealing with the yahoos. To accomplish that, they need heavy hands and those skills are expensive. In the past three years that has been an increase of paranoia in society overall, and the result is a lot more surveillance. The lake is somewhat an oasis from the police state. Don't change it.

[DoTheMath]

LG~ VERY good point - it's not the quantity, it's the quality and right now the quality (overall) is hurting.
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[webmaster]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

I have to disagree with a good chunk of what I have just read. For starters, "gratuitous bashing" - I wasn't even close! Come on Don, re-read it and you'll see for yourself. I was being fair and objective - and reasonable - and speaking from personal experience. How tight do you want to "police" this forum, to the point that anyones opionon that may be just the silghtest bit strong, you're going to toss?

I'm not going to debate my moderation of this Forum. I didn't "toss" you or your messages. I just tried to encourage you (and others) to be specific when you criticize. I don't intend to step in often to this new Forum but if I feel "gratuitous" (unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified) bashing is taking place I will first give a warning, as I did.

Now please, back to the subject at hand.

[Just Sold]

Well, I guess everyone has taken a swing at the MP. If you remember the question that started this tirade (at times) it was not how good a job they do but when they are on the lake after ice out. I answered "frdxplorer's" question to the best of my knowledge and some of you took it in a completely different direction.

From that some people took it to make a stand on the ability, age, maturity, capability, who does what etc. of the NH Marine Patrol and the WEB MASTER was right to interject at times today.

I have seen the patrol on more than just one body of water in NH. They are not always there when YOU see something that needs attention and sometimes they are there. No different than the State Police, County Sherriff or local police. I have found that all of our NH police officials are very helpful but if you give them an attitude as so many do today then they react to that. Maybe it is not a perfect response because they are human too. They are not perfect.

We have a younger Marine Police because of the pay but that holds true for most of the police forces in the state. The majority are young.

I have known State Police officers, a County Sherriff and a number of local Chiefs and finding good quality officers is always a problem and the money offered is never enough. They do what they can with budget constraints as everyone does.

Give our NH Marine Patrol officers a chance to do their job and when you need them they will be there.

Remember the statement: "As we get older they look younger and younger all the time." I have to remember this as my 24 year old son is a full time fireman laying his life on the line every day here in NH.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

...sit on the end of the dock at Weirs beach on a Saturday and watch the antics of the 100's of boaters going in and out of the channel and see how the "mall police" handle it...

Interesting, I did just that one day. Wife & I were enjoying a weekend at Weirs and while sitting on the motel balcony noticed a boat with a flashing light next to another boat just about 200 yards off the docks. I figured it was the MP. I noticed how all the boats headed for the channel slowed nicly and proceeded well spaced at headway speed to and through the channel. About 20 minutes later the flashing light was gone. The sight of boats now racing to see who could get to the channel first was quite a sight. The boats tied to the docks were really rocking now from the waves. It seemed to this tourist that the presence of one MP boat with a flashing light did a lot to improve manners, even if only for a short time. There should be more of them, imho.

[Kona Bay Girl]

sit on the end of the dock at Weirs beach on a Saturday and watch the antics of the 100's of boaters going in and out of the channel and see how the "mall police" handle it, it's scary!

The MP stopping those 100s of boats in the channel is similar to highway patrol stopping everyone who speeds. There's almost no way to control boating traffic in Meredith and Laconia -- 1000s of boats versus a small patrol that has to cover 72 square miles makes it rather hard to control anything in general. While the multitude of boats are spread out across the lake, so is the Marine Patrol. Generally, the MP has to serve somewhat of a double duty; they have to protect all who enjoy Winnipesaukee's waters as well as taking care of the lake itself. Things such as feeding the ducks or showering in the lake, foolish as they may sound, also have to be watched out for. I give the Marine Patrol a lot of credit; they can't exactly be in one spot at the lake at all times. Unlike a roadway, Winnipesaukee doesn't have yellow lines marking it up, save some markers and no-wake signs.


We got pulled over last year for speeding. Of course, it was 6 mph on a No Wake zone, but it was just nonetheless. And silly.

Who's just about ready for summer?

[Skip]

I have waited several hours to see if the MP detractors would post verifiaable evidence of their claims of malfeasance on the part of the MP.

I have waited in vain.


I also find it amazing that the reason by another poster for motorcycle and boating infractions is negligence on the part of "the State".

Wow, I have never seen "the State of New Hampshire" riding a motorcycle or driving a boat!

We are the problem, not the so called "State". It is out inability as a society to behave appropriately when not in the presence of a law enforcement official that causes many of the problems cited daily on this site.

Isn't it amazing that some among us truly beleive that if a Marine Patrol officer cannot be stationed in every cove, at each dock and throughout every channel in Lake Winnipesaukee....that the "State" is then failing us?

There is an old saying that simply states to be careful what you wish for, you may get it. Methinks that could very well apply in the case of Winni if it was flooded with an inordinate amount of law enforcement officers. And when you redirect your limited resources (like State Police) from the highways & byways of the State, who is now to protect those same roadways,,,which are much more dangerous?

Don has been patient enough to let me respond twice to this topic. I have definitely used up my .02 worth of bandwidth.

I will close with the fact that I know law enforcement in this wonderful area first hand, as some of you have already guessed. I know that the men & women of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol are highly qualified individuals that do an outstanding job with the limited resources they have at hand. And while I sometimes let unsubstantiated negative posts to the contrary get under my skin , I take great solace in the belief that vast majority of the responsible individuals frequenting this site ( and the Lake) share in my opinion of these dedicated individuals that make our Lake as safe as they possibly can!

[DoTheMath]

Don ~ Fair enough, your court - your rules, I can respect that.


Skip~ Very lucid statement. As I had mentioned already, I do a fine job of "policing" myself, my family and friends when it comes to the lake, and all that is involved. All of my friends that have places on the lake are the same, they know it is a "limited" resource to some extent and it needs to be protected for now and the future. As a waterfront property owner, I have the utmost repect for the lake and all that encompasses it. However, as times have changed over the years - and they have changed, a lot - the process of maintaining it and protecting it grows exponentially. All I am saying - in a nutshell - is that the PROCESS of how things are done, ie. unregulated boat rentals, countless jet skis operated with no restrictions with regard to ability, (to name a few) needs to be addressed. And the largest issue I see at this point is how the MP is to handle it all. It is human nature to just see a cop on the road and "behave", is it not? Why is it that we do not allow drinking and driving in a car, but we do in a boat? But, if you get caught boating & intoxicated it has repercussions back to your drivers license? (And no, I do NOT have personal experience with that, but I know people that do...). Everyone is quick to support the system as it is, but if you look at it from outside the box, it needs help. Do we do a combination of "part-time" deputy MP's and a set of State Police to round out the mix? Do we add a "fee" to the boat registrations - everyone is so against fees but if it helps the lake to be a better place and all...? Do, we add a section to our property tax for the homes that are in towns that surround the lake maybe, an extra $.20 per thousand assesed value to help fund the MP, or a new "system" to support & preserve the lake? Maybe if we change the rules of the game before the players hit the first tee, we won't have to rely on the MP so much!? I have often said that there should be an organization of lake-front homeowners who work in conjunction with the state & the MP to do our part to make the lake the best place it can be. If there is anyone that has the same feeling, step up to the plate and lets help out!!! I don't know the correct answer in this, but I am always willing to pitch in... I don't want the lake to loose it's charm and appeal that brought my family here over 60 years ago as a vacation spot, but it needs some help, in a lot of ways and I don't see it getting better. Squam Lake has done a fine job of preserving it's heritage, it's our turn to do it here.

Public safety and school teachers should make more than they do, no question - (I know plenty of both) and they hit it hard everyday! They educated us, they shape our childrens future, and they protect & serve all day - every day! There is always a better way to do things, it just takes a bit of time, effort and some good ideas...
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[Skip]

I will break my own rules and make a final reply...

You're last post is 180 degrees opposite of the previous 8 posts you made on the subject where you ridiculed and denegrated members of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol, all without a shred of evidence to support your claims (claims that others showed were false).

Anyway, someone made a very good point. They offered a bit of advice that I think would heed you well in your future posts to this site....let me reprint it for you;

...There is always a better way to do things, it just takes a bit of time, effort and some good ideas...

If only I could remember who offered that pertinent and timely advice!

[.:Wakeboarder180SS:.]

Um.... last summer, we were in a boat (thats me driving, and my dad chilling somewhere aft (and I'm only 13 with a Mass. Cert.)) They NEVER stopped me EVER-- we passed them like 5 times. Even one time we were in the Channel, we were goin into Paugus and we passed each other. There were 2 guys- one with a Coke waving to us, and the other vegging out with his shoes off, and they looked about 18. What we were surprised at is-- nobody cared that some little kid was driving a boat! Never stopped us or anything, thats scary-- I could've been some psyco kid that has problems with setting fires or playing bumperboats on the lake (no im reely responsible and careful tho dont u ppl worry ) And, MP, if ur out there-- Im not disclosing my name! :-X
u guys need some more emoticons lol Great new look webmaster!

[TICTOC]

Though I am no longer a boater after moving here to Arizona 15 years ago, I still like to remember our wonderful times we had on Winni.
Here in Arizona the lakes are patroled by the Sheriffs Dept. Incidently I've read a number of times, "There are more boats per capita here in Az than in any other state." Some may find that hard to believe but with the large lakes they have out here as well as the Colorado River, it's possible.
HAPPY BOATING TO ALL - now that ice is out.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Skip

I will break my own rules and make a final reply...

You're last post is 180 degrees opposite of the previous 8 posts you made on the subject where you ridiculed and denegrated members of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol, all without a shred of evidence to support your claims (claims that others showed were false).

No Skip - read it again. People here were not paying attention, or just seeing it as they saw fit and one person even decided to twist my post up and make it look much different than it was. I still think that the current state of the MP is BROKEN! This is based mainly on the PERSONNEL that make it up. I have two very specific instances that I was DIRECTLY involved in (over the last 5 years) that substantiate my stand on this. Not sure who it was that "showed my claims to be false" but please point them out to me...? I am offering an objective opionion on a situation that is not getting better and needs some help. However, feel free to maintain your stand, you are welcome to that, but DO NOT degrade my feelings on this because YOU feel the need to play judge and jury. As I said before you have your opinion - it is not right or wrong - it is just your opinion, much like mine.

And for those of us - like me - who have no idea who you are, what makes you such a staunch supporter of the current system? Are you on the MP, related to an MP or just as passionate about your side as I am about mine!? If you are asking me to support my end of this thread, maybe you can step up and support yours?

If you want all the dirty details of what happened, I would be happy to share them with you, but I refuse to air it here - no need to eat up Don's memory & bandwidth so you can be satiated by it.
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[Skip]

You'll know the training when you see it, it will be the group of kids being dropped off & picked up by their parents at the docks. They are too young to drive but the NH MP has no trouble giving them a few hours of training and then sending them out in a boat to make out water-ways "safer".

False statement

The good ones out there I can count on one hand an have a finger or two left over.

Inflammatory statement with no facts to base claim

I could sit here and spout off about my experiences with the MP, and say what you want, if I had one encounter on tape - Mr. MP would have been out of a job that day! Being about 30 at the time, I bit my tounge, took his crap for about 45 min. and parted ways. I contacted Mr. David Barrett over it all and he basically told me it was our word against the MP's and to hang it up and go home. Didn't even want to hear about it! Now, you tell me - professional organization, whatever!

Accusatory statement with no offer of proof

I just think it would (truly) be a better and safer lake if we had real experienced officers out there and not kids looking for a cushy job during summer break from college. There are one or two MP out there that really are good, the rest - heh - forget it!

Another statement not based on facts

Need I go on?

[marcucci]

Skip and DoTheMath,

I have been reading this message and I think it just comes down to the fact that you both have different opinions. I think you just need to agree to disagree.

I am in the middle, while I am happy MP is there when they are pulling over someone who is being a nuisance or doing something that would result in a hazard, I have also been there when they came into Braun Bay to, in my opinion, cause trouble.

Just like everything else, there are good ones and bad ones. Personally, I don't misbehave on the lake and they leave me alone, I like it that way. I must say though it frosts me when someone blatantly breaks a boating law in front of them and they don't flash the blues but no more then when a driver goes straight in a right turn only lane and a cop watching the whole thing just drives away.

Just enjoy the lake and hope you don't have to rely or be bothered by MP, which ever way you look at it.

[DoTheMath]

You know what Skip - no DON'T go on, pleeeeese! Your ramblings are unfounded and trite, to say the least - let's just agree to disagree and go our separate ways. I have my feelings and you have yours, and because I won't air my gripes to satisfy you, you think you're "right". Whatever... You still haven't substantiated your claims as to why you are "right" and why you are the preeminent authority on the MP! Come on, give it up - or give it up. This is getting tired and loosing it's point, thanks to you... :rolleyes:

Sorry folks, hope you all have an enjoyable boating season, (even you Skip ) - I know it's tops on my agenda!

Don - keep up the good work with your site, I have been on this site for several years and it never ceases to amaze me! BTW - The web cam you have at the pier is GREAT!! I figured with all the cam-bashing going on I'd throw you a nice compliment - I check it everyday.
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[Frdxplorer]

Never expected my post to generate this much discussion. However, thank you to the person who answered my initial question. ( I am sorry I forgot to write down your name before entering the reply window). I now have another question regarding the MP. Much discussion has focused on the State Police etc. Do they sometimes do ride alongs with MPs during busy weekends. I thought that I witnessed some MP boats carrying a person that appeared to be in a dark green and olive uniform much like that of state troopers. I also thought I noticed a gun. Could this be state police or is it Fish and Game or something like that?

[GWC...]

***** This is getting tired and loosing it's point, thanks to you... *****

Another falsehood by DoTheMath...

Perhaps you forgot who put the fork in the road and took this thread down the road that should not have been travelled?

A more truthful wording would be: This is getting tired and loosing it's point, thanks to me, DoTheMath, and my excessive, non-relevant to the original question posts to this thread...

Just my opion; yours may differ...

P.S.- In four decades of boating on the Lake, I have been "visited" three times (twice I was already stopped) by the MPs.

The first "visit" was upon entering Wolfeboro harbor and I decided to toot the horn - my fault; but doesn't she purr, though...

The second "visit" was for a tow - low oil in lower unit - my fault.

The third "visit" was a non MP matter, curiosity, as to the boat - it was of European origin.

Perhaps more than our opinions differ... :rolleyes:

[Lakegeezer]

This discussion is predictable as the one about ice-out. Will it still be a hot topic 10 years from now? How different will the lake experience be? MP, if you are reading - keep on doing what you are doing, but try to be a bit less rude. Its always good entertainment when its the other guy getting stopped.

Next thing you know, it will be May and the forum can shift to the annual discussion of catching bass on their beds.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Will [this discussion] still be a hot topic 10 years from now?

It will not be a hot topic: We have already seen that a night-time speed limit is only another accident away. Other restrictions are inevitable, given our increasingly-anarchic boating environment.


Nobody asked that the NHMP become a "Police State". In fact if the MPs were simply paid time-and-a-half overtime to work the weekends (and take off two days during the week) I'd have no heartburn over that. Why should I restrict my own boating just because it's a weekend? Personal safety?

They also need to bring back the "MP Auxillary". A half-dozen of those truly devoted boaters with flashing blue lights situated near "the usual suspects" would do wonders -- for free!

(The Auxillary also have a stake in the Lakes Region Community --worth much more than money).

[marcucci]

Reply to Frdxplorer

I am not sure who you saw with MP. As far as I know MP has all the rights the state police do while on the water as far as detaining and arresting. I have heard that they have basically no police rights on land. They only reason I could think of state riding with MP would be to arrest ppl on land for trespassing maybe at a sand bar, or if someone flees to land?

Could be F&G, but they have their own boat too so I am not sure why they would be in a MP boat.

-Dave

[Skip]

The uniform you describe belongs to that of a F&G officer, who can be seen frequently riding with MP officers. It is extremely rare for SP officers to be assigned to MP duty.

Contrary to the above post, an MP does indeed have the authority to arrest on land for certain offenses under certain circumstances (see red highlighted section below).
I have attached the RSA that empowers MP officers below;

NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY
CHAPTER 270
SUPERVISION OF NAVIGATION; REGISTRATION OF BOATS AND MOTORS; COMMON CARRIERS BY WATER
Administration and Enforcement
Section 270:12-a
270:12-a Enforcement Powers Conferred. –
I. The director of the division of safety services and his duly authorized representatives shall have all the powers of a peace officer in all counties of the state in the enforcement of:
(a) The provisions of this chapter and the rules adopted hereunder;
(b) The provisions of RSA 270:48-a, relative to the operation of boats by a person under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a controlled drug or other unlawful operation of boats thereunder and all other crimes and offenses occurring on the public bodies of inland waters of the state;
(c) The provisions of RSA 637:9, relative to unauthorized use of a motor boat or any boat or vessel propelled by sail or a paddle;
(d) The provisions of RSA 642:1, relative to interfering with a public servant;
(e) The provisions of RSA 642:6, relative to escape from official custody; and
(f) The provisions of Title LXII when:
(1) A violation of such title occurs on an island to which access is provided only by boat when no representative of any other law enforcement agency with jurisdiction is immediately available to handle a complaint of violation and the safety of persons or property requires immediate action;
(2) A trespass violation is committed on land adjacent to a body of water by a person who used a boat as his means of transportation or who left his boat to come ashore; or
(3) Requested to render assistance to another peace officer having jurisdiction in the area.
I-a. The director of safety services and his duly authorized representatives shall be authorized to call upon any peace officer to render assistance to them in the performance of their duties and shall render assistance to any peace officer having jurisdiction in the area when so requested.
II. [Repealed.]
III. The director of the division of safety services shall adopt rules pursuant to RSA 541-A prescribing the type and amount of training required for his duly authorized representatives to perform their duties under this section.
IV. Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, the jurisdiction of marine patrol officers shall extend to any body of water, whether natural or man-made, within the state's jurisdiction, including streams, rivers, and lakes or ponds having an area of at least 10 acres.
V. All vessels and their registered tender operating on New Hampshire's tidal waters shall comply with Coast Guard equipment requirements in 33 C.F.R. section 175 and 44 C.F.R. section 25, exclusively.

[marcucci]

So what about a dog that goes on land at the sandbar to relieve itself, sounds like MP can't do anything about this? Just wondering becuase I see it done often.

[Skip]

You're right....

They can't...they won't...nor should they.

I think the postings on this forum clearly dictate they have much more important duties to attend to!

[JDeere]

I have had several experiences with MP. I was even stopped 12 years ago for passing another boat at 10 MPH. I was wrong since I was not 150 feet away. MP was professional and I apologetic and after a boat inspection I was not given a ticket.

I have also had experiences when I needed them and all were positive. Which leads me to my point?


One quick story as my way of offering proof: I was standing on MP docks with MP one summer and we watched all the violations taking place in front of MP it was an MP officer that said to me that they needed more staff AND they needed year round staff. Dothemath bashed some good people but his underlying message is sound. Skip wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. The message is sound just delivered in an obnoxious way so it ruffled a few feathers.



Who can afford to work for that pay and then lose your job every year?

Kids who want to go into law and someone retired. We deserve more than kids who are building a resume I would prefer someone who is in that job because it is their career. No knocks on the retired folks especially retired law enforcement they already have the experience to handle the job.



Dothemath has taken so much heat I was wondering if he is the reincarnation of Bajabob. Wonder what ever happened to him………………not that I miss him!

[Frdxplorer]

Marcucci,

Thanks so much for the wonderful post that was VERY easy to find. I really appreciate it given the diversion from said topic. Thanks again. Quite helpful

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by marcucci

So what about a dog that goes on land at the sandbar to relieve itself, sounds like MP can't do anything about this? Just wondering becuase I see it done often.

Good question. In some states, state-owned property (like State Parks) will not permit entry by dogs, or any pets.

The State of New Hampshire has designated about 10± feet of Winnipesaukee shoreline for use by "citizens" -- so citizens and their pets are presumably allowed to use a narrow portion of lakefront property. (And these pets would have to be leashed where leash-laws are in force).

However, it's probably unnecessary to "run" a pet anyway. My pets have "toughed it out" for some very long stretches of driving. (You can tell when they've had it -- they will put on a "frown" face -- -- and stare into your eyes).

You're referring to rafters' pets? -- on homeowners' yards? Or an exposed stretch of sand in the Lake?


.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

The State of New Hampshire has designated about 10± feet of Winnipesaukee shoreline for use by "citizens" .

I've heard about the low tide rule, but never anything about public use of Winnipesaukee shoreline. What do you mean? Are you talking about privately owned shoreline? Is this documented anywhere so we can fully understand it?

[Skip]

Like Lakegeezer, I anxiously await Madrasah's posting of the particular statute or case law that verifies his claim that the State of New Hampshire has designated 10 feet of shoreline for public use.

As Lakegeezer has alluded to, there is a statute defining public use for shorelines in reference to tidal waters in New Hampshire along the coast, but not pertaining to inland non-tidal fresh water bodies. I attach that particular RSA below;

TITLE L
WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION
CHAPTER 483-C
PUBLIC USE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE COASTAL SHORELANDS
Section 483-C:1
483-C:1 Public Use of Coastal Shorelands. –
I. It is the purpose of the general court in this section to recognize and confirm the historical practice and common law right of the public to enjoy the greatest portion of New Hampshire coastal shoreland, in accordance with the public trust doctrine subject to those littoral rights recognized at common law.
II. The general court recognizes that New Hampshire holds in "public trust' rights in all shorelands subject to the ebb and flow of the tide to the high water mark and subject to those littoral rights recognized at common law. This "public trust' shoreland establishes the extreme seaward boundary extension of all private property rights in New Hampshire except for those "jus privatum' rights validly conveyed by legislative act without impairment of New Hampshire's "jus publicum' interests.
III. Any person may use the public trust coastal shorelands of New Hampshire for all useful and lawful purposes, to include recreational purposes, subject to the provisions of municipal ordinances relative to the "reasonable use' of the public trust shorelands.
IV. The provisions of this section shall in no way be construed as affecting the title of private property owners of land contiguous to land subject to the public trust.
V. The high water mark which bounds the shoreward extent of the public trust shorelands in New Hampshire, excluding abnormal storm events, means the furthest landward limit reached by the highest tidal flow, commonly referred to as the highest spring or highest "syzygy' tide occurring during the 19-year Metonic cycle. The landward trace of the high water mark in New Hampshire is established by the tidal station data within the contemporary 19-year "National Tidal Datum Epoch' for Portland, Maine, Casco Bay (NOS MAINE 841 8150) as that data is transposed to New Hampshire tidal stations by the "differences' tidal constant established by the National Ocean Service (NOS) of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) for New Hampshire tidal stations and published in the annual "Tide Tables High and Low Water Predictions, East Coast of North and South America, Including Greenland'. The contemporary 19-year National Tidal Datum Epoch is the national tidal database maintained by NOS of NOAA.
VI. For the purposes of this section, "coastal shorelands' means that portion of the shoreland extending to the high water mark.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Skip:

I anxiously await Madrasah's posting of the particular statute or case law...

We had a TRIPLE power surge and outage last evening. My lawyerly discourse got erased mid-preview.

Probably it's that "It's that Ossipee Station problem" story, again.

(A McMansion across the lake automatically lit up its emergency lighting -- with dozens of those really bright night-time highway repair lights -- during the blackout).

Anyway, sorry for the delay.

Originally Posted by Skip: "...there is a statute defining public use for shorelines in reference to tidal waters in New Hampshire along the coast, but not pertaining to inland non-tidal fresh water bodies. I attach that particular RSA below.

Nothing pertains to inland lakes? ***

Originally Posted by Skip:
TITLE L
WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION
CHAPTER 483-C
PUBLIC USE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE COASTAL SHORELANDS
Section 483-C:1
483-C:1 Public Use of Coastal Shorelands... –
I. It is the purpose of the general court in this section to recognize and confirm the historical practice and common law right of the public to enjoy the greatest portion of New Hampshire coastal shoreland, in accordance with the public trust doctrine subject to those littoral rights recognized at common law.

*** "Littoral" (Webster) pertains to seas, oceans, and lakes (!) So has "the common law" rights of citizens been completely addressed for inland lakes? It's not in the above RSA.

It is well established that the citizens may use the surface waters of the lake (for better or worse ); however, the lake waters do not stop at the shoreline (except at sandy shorelines).

The water's edge extends far under the topsoil and tree roots, where it has established its "high-water mark" under my sundeck.

How do I know? Decades ago, I searched for a dropped article and peeked through an opening in the ground. Just below my sundeck, there was water -- the late-April high water mark of a Winnipesaukee snowmelt. It was subject to slight movements from large boat wakes.

Again, peeking back from in the lake, anyone can see that Winnipesaukee's high-water mark has eroded the soil and created large chasms. The chasm roof is supported by tree roots. (Chipmunks race through these chasms, avoiding predators, and I've heard baby birds chirping for Momma bird from under there).

Tree roots hold the shoreline over the lake. Most of Winnipesaukee's steep and rocky shoreline appears to be similar to mine, including most of those larger islands with steep inclines.

(Spring rains cause topsoil from higher areas, muddying this lake margin -- but that's subsidence -- another story).

New Hampshire seems to have forgotten "the lake part" in accordance with the public trust doctrine subject to those littoral rights recognized at common law."

In my opinion, the "high-water line" extends underneath much of Winnipesaukee's shoreline -- about where my boundary stakes are, about 15-20 feet from the lake.

Why doesn't Common Law apply to the public's right to walk their dogs on land that is over Lake Winnipesaukee's high-water mark -- waters to which they are fully entitled ?

It does in other states...does New Hampshire Law fail to address this? It appears unaddressed, but I see it as neglected. They have used the term "high-water mark" with regard to lakes -- and allowed a roughly 10-foot shoreline margin for the public's use -- "designated" through neglect.

Could one lawyer's interpretation of "littoral" and "Common Law" mean the public should be able to walk their dog on land that is over a lake's high-water mark? I think it could. (It doesn't mean I like it).




.

[Skip]

You said:

...The State of New Hampshire has designated about 10± feet of Winnipesaukee shoreline for use by "citizens"...

My research indicates that the State has said/done no such thing.

The RSA I provided clearly indicates that it is referencing tidal waters, not inland fresh water lakes (Like Winni).

We are all free to guess what a lawyer may or may not do. I have neither the time nor desire to go there.

Finally, what you address as neglect may be just the opposite. A clear intent by the legislature not to grant such access via statute.

Enough from me on this subject, as we have transgressed afar from the intent of this thread.

I felt a response was necessary as undo alarm may have arisen by some lakefront owners reading your post and wondering when the New Hampshire Legislature had codified your claim (as expressed by at least one forum reader).

However, if you ever come across pertinent case law or legislation that confirms your suspicion, I am sure that would be of interest to all under a new thread heading.

Thanks for your reply!

Skip

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Skip
TITLE L
WATER MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION
CHAPTER 483-C
PUBLIC USE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE COASTAL SHORELANDS
Section 483-C:1
483-C:1 Public Use of Coastal Shorelands... –
I. It is the purpose of the general court in this section to recognize and confirm the historical practice and common law right of the public to enjoy the greatest portion of New Hampshire coastal shoreland, in accordance with the public trust doctrine subject to those littoral rights recognized at common law.



.

Originally Posted by madrasahs

*** "Littoral" (Webster) pertains to seas, oceans, and lakes (!) So has "the common law" rights of citizens been completely addressed for inland lakes? It's not in the above RSA.

.

madrasahs -

Are you sure you are correct about this? Chapter 483-C specifically references "Coastal Shorelands". My dictionary (Webster's - 1969 edition) does not contain the word "coastal", but it defines "coast" as "land alongside the sea; seashore", and it defines "coastal plain" as "level land extending along a coast". Why do you believe that 483-C applies to inland lakes?

[madrasahs]

Maybe we haven't "transgressed afar...."

.

Originally Posted by marcucci

So what about a dog that goes on land at the sandbar to relieve itself, sounds like MP can't do anything about this? Just wondering because I see it done often.

I'm thinking the MPs HAVE authority -- to the lake's high-water mark, wherever that might be!

(Even on "land").

[T.H.E. Binz]

My direct experiences with the MP have all been excellent. However, I believe that the MP is both underpaid and understaffed. My suggestion -- make annual boat registration fees of $1 per motor HP. The increase in revenue as a result of such a fee structure could be used to support the MP as well as natural resource issues.

[jrc]

"The compression was also lowered on both 650 horsepower engines, a move that should increase fuel efficiency and create more power" Citizen Online

So it will cost at least $1300 to register the Mount Washington.

[ITD]

More taxes are not the answer, I personally have not had any problems with MP and yes, most even give a friendly wave when I am out on my jetski.

And by the way, more taxes is never a good solution, usually the money gets diverted somewhere else and you end up with...... more taxes.

[GWC...]

Concord would love to have several of these boats (a megayacht for the average McMansion) to be launched on the Lake, under your proposed HP fee.

HP = 10870 + 9200 = total HP of 20070 = $20,070 registration fee, each.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by ITD

And by the way, more taxes is never a good solution, usually the money gets diverted somewhere else and you end up with...... more taxes.

I agree!

BTW everyone thinks they're underpaid and overworked. This is simple supply and demand. If no one would take the jobs as offered, then the MP would have to raise the pay.

It seems like the MP has a core group of permanent employees and a lot of "summer help". It the summer help that we're talking about, right? There are serious MP functions like accidents, rescues, etc but there's also some functions that just require eyes and ears. Just posting a MP in a boat near the Weirs channel has a huge positive effect. That MP doesn't need to be Dirty Harry. If things get out hand, just pick up the radio. If anything I'd suggest more patrols rather than more expensive patrols. Did you ever notice how everyone is more careful about their drinking when the MP is hanging out near the sandbar?

[Island Girl]

Marine Patrol gearing up for another season

[Gayla]

Reading all of your posts makes me want to move to NH. Where I live (mississippi) you see an officer of some kind around every corner, yet there is so much bad stuff that happens here. Sounds to me like your way is working better. We even have cops in the schools and the kids are still toting weapons and selling drugs. We have to scrape and save to send our kids to a private Christian school so we don't have to be afraid to send them. Don't get me wrong, we have great cops here. I respect them and appreciate them to the fullest and they do the very best they can. They are just out numbered by criminals. (And they certainly aren't paid well enough.)

I envy you all in NH. See you in September.

[ebizboy]

For the most part I have had positive experiences with the MPs. Although they are mostly young kids there have been very respectful whenever I have encountered them. I did have one experience when I first started boating, about 10 years ago where I was less than enthusiastic about their presence, however. I was a brand new boater and completely ignorant of most of the rules. It was probably around 6:00 or so on a Sunday night, so there were not many other boaters about at the time. I was headed toward the Long Island bridge from the West side and saw an MP sitting about 1/2 mile in front of the no wake zone before the bridge. He was right in the middle of the path between the bridge and me. I waved and gave him a friendly smile as I proceeded to make as wide an arch as possible around him at about 15 - 20 knots. Of course he stopped me, checked out my boat and wrote me up for the 150' rule. He was an older gentlemen and wasn't rude in any way. He gave me a rulebook and suggested I get to know it inside and out. I was also ordered to take the marine course and get my boating certificate. Whether or not I was within 150' of him is debatable, but I must say that at the time I was not altogether thrilled with his methods. In hindsight it is probably the best thing that could have happened to me. Since the law didn't require me to take the course at that time, I probably would not have taken it otherwise and it turned out to be a great experience. The class was excellent but I credit that entirely to the instructor. I don't remember his name but I know he patrolled Lake Winni at the time and looked a lot like John Candy.

[madrasahs]

"...My suggestion -- make annual boat registration fees of $1 per motor HP. The increase in revenue as a result of such a fee structure could be used to support the MP as well as natural resource issues."

.

It seems support for your [T.H.E.Binz'] intelligent suggestion has respondents lined up none deep.

This is a fee. (New Hampshire doesn't introduce taxes). However, it's a progressive fee that addresses a real seasonal need -- particularly on weekends.

For a teacher or retiree looking for a summer MP job, there should be financial incentive. If a prospective MP officer could rent a cottage near/on the lake for the season and get paid enough, we could "gain" a Marine Patrol officer for the season.

Additionally, why are my two motorless sailboats assessed a $30 annual fee, ($60 total) when most of our problems on the lake are horsepower-driven? This is a fair application of boating "fees"?

A dollar a horsepower could help rid us of the anarchy that some boaters have brought to this lake.


.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

.
This is a fee. (New Hampshire doesn't introduce taxes). However, it's a progressive fee that addresses a real seasonal need -- particularly on weekends.

.

Fee is a tax with a different name, the end result is the same, money out of your pocket and mine, into the governments account. Once the government has it they do whatever they want with it. You'll never see my support for increased fees for something that should already be well funded by the "fees" already collected.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by ITD

"...You'll never see my support for increased fees for something that should already be well funded by the "fees" already collected."

It's apparent to everybody (well, almost everybody) that the MPs are definitely not well-funded.

I suspect that my two motorless sailboats' $60 fee is being used to enforce "horsepower infractions" -- those infractions that endanger others with velocity and mass, and tie-up additional MP time in enforcing New Hampshire's noise abatement rules.

Since I have no horsepower, only use New Hampshire's wind for a short time, don't foul the air, the water, add no MtBE, violate no noise regulations, or erode the shoreline, I think horsepower should be determining factor in fee allocations and result in additional MPs.

Enforcement of motorboating rules should have a lower threshold for law enforcment. Most land-based law enforcement deals with circumstances that normally don't result in drownings.

I once asked a seasoned pilot whether it was better to crash into a tree or crash into the lake (following a tree crash). His reply was "Always crash on land -- It's the same impact and you won't drown".

Horsepower is a good way to distribute fees.

I'm jazzed now, and going to contact my New Hampshire sailboat lobbyist.


.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by madrasahs

It's apparent to everybody (well, almost everybody) that the MPs are definitely not well-funded.

I honestly don't know if MP is underfunded, ineffective or inefficient. I actually think they do a good job. They also have some impressive boats. I think that even if we quadrupled their budget, the lake is so large that people who want to misbehave will still have plenty of space to misbehave in and not get caught.

It almost sounds as though you are for tax, oops fee, increases as long as someone else pays it. Why not an across the board fee increase borne by all NH boaters?

I wouldn't be advocating fee increases because you may just get what you ask for.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by ITD

"...the lake is so large that people who want to misbehave will still have plenty of space to misbehave in and not get caught.

Allow misbehaving? On, say, weekends?

If you've been around awhile, this lake is definitely getting smaller with every season, even off-site boat storage is filling up.

Also, the lake gets smaller as the boats get faster. The 150-foot rule is insufficient for offshores. (The same rule my saiboat has to observe -- go figure.)
.

Originally Posted by ITD

"It almost sounds as though you are for tax increases as long as someone else pays it. Why not an across the board fee increase borne by all NH boaters?

Because my two "non-horsepower" boat registrations are subsidizing the rightful enforcement of "horsepowered" boats!

Think of the Jet-Skis, the rafters, and the family boaters that use up all the MP's time. Add in the facts that sailboats don't pollute the air, don't "hang-out", don't foul the water, add no MtBE, don't violate noise regulations, don't overturn small boats with their wakes, and don't erode the shoreline.

No, horsepower needs to be taxed -- not the boats that are powered by paddle, battery, or the wind -- exclusively. (New Hampshire will happily register your canoe -- they just don't tell you it's unnecessary.)

Which is not to say that my sailboat hasn't been stopped by the MPs -- it has -- twice. (MPs -- and the "Boater's Handbook" itself -- show little regard for sailboats.

The first stop wasn't pretty. The 2nd stop was just wrong on the law. Fortunately, I carry a letter from Director Barrett (thanks, Dir. Barrett) acknowledging that I know my boating RSAs.

Sailboats are an easy catch, I guess. Why do they waste their time with us and why are we paying a tax disproportionate to our effect on the lake?

Even it out -- support enforcement.

[GWC...]

Not all sailboats are without power and probably thankful for it.

[ITD]

madrasahs,

My point wasn't to allow bad behavior, it was that you can't tax it out of existence. My next point is that often taxes (fees) intended for one purpose end up diverted for another. Another point is that even if you add three more officers for each one that is out there now I still believe that the impact would be minimal.
Look at the other thread by the young kid where the fishermen yell at him so he tries to "scare" the fish away. I was suprised at the number of boaters who chimed in and congratulated the bad behavior and even gave suggestions for other things to do for revenge. As long as people have this mentality there will be problems, one solution would be to require an MP officer in each boat to monitor for bad behavior. That might work but I'd hate to pay for it and I wouldn't want it.

The solution is manners and tolerance, people make mistakes and have bad days. Revenge just makes it worse, look at the couple from Manchester who followed that lady into Mass. then shot her, over being cut off. More police still wouldn't have stopped it.

Have fun on your sailboats, I sail too and it is much more fun and more of a challenge than the powerboat. I'm amazed at the people who power over near me to get a closer look at the mystifying engineless boat, even when I'm sailing between submerged rocks. (The sail boat only draws about 3 inches with the centerboard up).

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by GWC...

Not all sailboats are without power and probably thankful for it.

Your hypertext got lost on me -- and had to read "it" again. (Animated demonstration of rotating sailboat within its own length).

Originally Posted by ITC...

I sail too and it is much more fun and more of a challenge than the powerboat.

I started on Winnipesaukee with powerboats -- starting with an 8-foot hydro -- actually two -- and moved up in 2-foot increments all the way to a 16-footer. That was "plenty of boat" except when the weather was bad.

We learned, "Don't go out when the weather is bad". Duh.

I'm continually impressed with the ingenuity of sailboaters, though. As you say, it is challenging (and certainly more challenging than powerboats).

It is the difference between "operating a boat" (not "driving a boat") and "docking" a boat" (not "parking a boat")

It's scary to think what boaters are out there who started "big" -- and got "bigger" -- without recognizing the effects that speed and sheer mass has on others.