Let's try this compromise thing again.

Airwaves · 03-01-2006, 06:14 PM

Works for me!

I'd take it a step further on the funding end and in addition to increasing fees and expanding registration, eliminate the rebate for state gasoline tax at marinas but the money has to be earmarked for use by the Marine Patrol by statute, otherwise I think it just goes into the general fund. Eliminating the rebate on the state gas tax for boat will mean transient boaters also help pay for the increased enforcement.

I think the underlying issue here is the lack of enforcement of the 150' rule, not a speed limit.

ApS · 03-01-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...I think the underlying issue here is the lack of enforcement of the 150' rule..."

The 150' rule isn't enforced because nobody wants to enforce a rule that is violated so often by so many boaters.

It's also VAGUE. A speed limit works for Lake George because the results can be quantified, and boaters know it. Officers only have to write a few tickets a year to keep a semblance of order.

When a Jet-Ski runs through "clot" of three family boats exiting a cove, all are technically violators. Who gets cited? Nobody.

Why collect MORE money for enforcement of a vague rule that has long outlasted its usefulness?

codeman671 · 03-02-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

The 150' rule isn't enforced because nobody wants to enforce a rule that is violated so often by so many boaters.

It's also VAGUE. A speed limit works for Lake George because the results can be quantified, and boaters know it. Officers only have to write a few tickets a year to keep a semblance of order.

When a Jet-Ski runs through "clot" of three family boats exiting a cove, all are technically violators. Who gets cited? Nobody.

Why collect MORE money for enforcement of a vague rule that has long outlasted its usefulness?

So lets dump the 150' rule and put in place the speed limit. Do you really think that it is more dangerous for a boat to pass by at 80mph at 150' out or 45mph at 30' out?

Airwaves · 03-02-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by codeman671
So lets dump the 150' rule and put in place the speed limit. Do you really think that it is more dangerous for a boat to pass by at 80mph at 150' out or 45mph at 30' out?

That was a joke, right????

codeman671 · 03-03-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

That was a joke, right????

Yes it was a joke, sorry if you did not see the sarcasm. I openly opposed to the speed limit and my history of posts (and former avatar) show that. The thought of getting rid of the 150' rule and using a speed limit instead is foolish and probably in the end considerably more dangerous. Even at lesser speeds giving boats the legal right to pass within mere feet of each other will be catastrophic.

ApS · 03-03-2006, 08:35 AM

Pass, then suspend HB-162 indefinitely.

Reinstate it immediately upon the occurrence of a NH freshwater double-fatality attributable to a powerboat!

No exception, no excuses:

Hit-and-run, alcohol-related, suicide, divers, water-skiing, Jet-Ski, Poker Run, sanctioned speed event, avoiding floatplane, right-of-way issue, tubing, hit-and-run—operator not located, wrinkled diver flag, no lights on struck vessel, victims under 16-years-old, dock collision, kite-boarding, drunk passengers, drunk skiers, avoiding a surfacing loon—no exceptions.

This should put most responsible boaters on eggshells: Who wants to be remembered as being the one to enable HB-162?

RegalStan2450 · 03-04-2006, 02:14 PM

I would say pass a weekend and holiday speed limit like other NH lakes have.

The one major thing I dislike about this law is the restrictions it puts on certain people. To say someone can't go fast on a lake with noone on it during the week, just doesn't make sense to me.

I would agree with the limit if it was weekend and holiday only for compromise sake.

Quick disclaimer

Again I boat mostly on the weekends and my boat only goes 50 mph so this law wouldn't even effect me . Ok 55 if I am down to 10 gallons of gas,I am alone, take out all unneeded life vests and equipment and remove my second battery

I just feel HB 162 does nothing for safety but our country was built on compromising.

BroadHopper · 03-02-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

So lets dump the 150' rule and put in place the speed limit. Do you really think that it is more dangerous for a boat to pass by at 80mph at 150' out or 45mph at 30' out?

That is what you see on Lake George. I think Lake George is scarier then Lake Winnipesaukee!

upthesaukee · 03-01-2006, 10:43 PM

Boat gas tax is not a boat gas refund. It is a refund for virtually any non road use purchase of gasoline in this state. Farmers, homeowners with lawnmowers, etc all are eligible for the refund.

Keep the registration money, earmark a portion of it, raise it $2 per boat, whatever....but to suggest eliminating the refund for boats will end up being a logistical nightmare for the state, trying to figure out who is circumventing the law and saying their lawn tractor used 430 gallons during June, July, & August.

Leave that alone...messing with it would hurt more folks than it would help, especially those not involved with boating.

Just my humble opinion,.

APS : "A speed limit works for Lake George because the results can be quantified, and boaters know it. Officers only have to write a few tickets a year to keep a semblance of order." What enforcement there is on that lake is made simple by having more Patrol boats on the lake than we have here. Having lived an hour south of Lake George and having boated on the lake, I can tell you that there is no comparison between Lake George and Lake Winnipesaukee, in my opinion. Lake George is a very narrow lake, with no real expanse like the broads. It is more like riding on an area that is about twice as wide as Merideth Bay or Alton Bay, with islands in the middle of it. There is was then and still is plenty of speed on Lake George especially near the village end of the lake, where it is pretty much wide open. And Lake George is a state park, and unless something changed in the last few years, you pay a special Park fee to boat on the lake each year. I really do hate to see the comparisons between the two lakes, it's like trying to compare budgets and government between Laconia and Alton...apples and oranges as they say.

Airwaves · 03-02-2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Original post by upthesaukee
Keep the registration money, earmark a portion of it, raise it $2 per boat, whatever....but to suggest eliminating the refund for boats will end up being a logistical nightmare for the state, trying to figure out who is circumventing the law and saying their lawn tractor used 430 gallons during June, July, & August.

Actually what I was suggesting and I didn't articulate it clearly, is that the state gasoline tax refund be eliminated for boats, nothing else, and that money be earmarked for the Marine Patrol.

The way I would approach it is to eliminate the gas tax refund from gasoline sold only at marinas. I don't know too many people who haul their lawn tractor down to the gas dock to refuel it do you?

Yep, it would require new legislation.

Quote:

Original post by Acres per Second
The 150' rule isn't enforced because nobody wants to enforce a rule that is violated so often by so many boaters.

It's also VAGUE.

I disagree, while it may be routinely violated it is not vague.

If there is an issue with what happens when a boat is being overtaken then add language that addresses that issue.

I don't have the Colregs in front of me but I believe the stand on vessel is supposed to maintain course and SPEED and the overtaking vessel is to signal its intent using its horn and can not proceed until the vessel being overtaken agrees.

I'm not an attorney but I always thought that when there are conflicting statutes between state and federal law, federal law trumps so it really isn't necessary to re-write everything.

Woodsy · 03-02-2006, 08:20 AM

I thought this thread was about a compromise on HB-162...

APS,

You are stating that the 150' rule is archaic? Are you suggestiong we dump that rule and just go with a speed limit? I have to strongly disagree! In fact one of the reasons NH is well below the national averages in boating accidents and fatalities is because of this rule! Even if an offending boat breaks the bubble and comes within 75' of you, your safety isn't really all that compromised, especially when you compare our 150' rule to the rules of navigation elsewhere. Consider that your much touted Lake George (you know that lake you love to talk about but you don't boat on) has no such rule regarding distance between moving boats. I can go by your skiff less than 10' away with a huge wake and as long as I am not going faster than 45 its all completely legal. Of course, on Lake George if I was going faster than 45 that wouldn't be a big deal either, as they only write 5-6 speeding tickets a year and the majority of those are written to PWC's who are not allowed to be within 500' of shore while on plane. They don't actively enforce the speed limit on Lake George. I know, I boat there! I don't think there are ANY other states that have a 150' Safe Passage Law (as it pertains to moving boats) on the books.

The 150' Safe Passage law, while difficult to write a violation, is one of the key safety tenets of boating here in NH. It allows a large buffer zone between moving boats that keep them a safe distance apart. It works very well, and the proof of that is our low rate of collisions between moving boats.

Archaic? I don't think so!

To my knowledge, the only boating fatality we had last year was that kayaker who thought it was a good idea to go kayaking in a flood by himself. Nobody died from any boat on boat collisions, and the few collisions we did have occured at speeds less than the proposed 45MPH limit.

Woodsy

Lakewinniboater · 03-02-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The 150' Safe Passage law, while difficult to write a violation, is one of the key safety tenets of boating here in NH. It allows a large buffer zone between moving boats that keep them a safe distance apart. It works very well, and the proof of that is our low rate of collisions between moving boats.
Woodsy

I do believe ..... i could be wrong but I know that I have seen MANY a boater given a ticket for being less than 150'.... I myself got one. Even though I wasn't over headway. However, I didn't mind. I paid it and was happy that they are enforcing it.

ApS · 03-02-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

You are stating that the 150' rule is archaic? Are you suggestiong we dump that rule and just go with a speed limit?

It's archaic because the 150-foot violation can be missed in the blink of an eye at today's excessive speeds; however, nowhere did I suggest it be "dumped": It should augment the speed limit.

BTW: We all did agree that 25-MPH is a safe limit for boating in darkness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

"...And Lake George is a state park, and unless something changed in the last few years, you pay a special Park fee to boat on the lake each year. I really do hate to see the comparisons between the two lakes..."

Big deal...it's a State Park. Comparing the two doesn't make Lake Winnipesaukee chopped liver.

Lake Winnipesaukee should have been made a State Park, not an open race course for the privileged and entitled few.

03-03-2006, 08:35 AM	#6
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 6,053 Thanks: 2,282 Thanked 789 Times in 565 Posts	Want a compromise??? Probation! Pass, then suspend HB-162 indefinitely. *Reinstate it immediately upon the occurrence of a NH freshwater double-fatality* attributable to a powerboat! No exception, no excuses: Hit-and-run, alcohol-related, suicide, divers, water-skiing, Jet-Ski, Poker Run, sanctioned speed event, avoiding floatplane, right-of-way issue, tubing, hit-and-run—operator not located, wrinkled diver flag, no lights on struck vessel, victims under 16-years-old, dock collision, kite-boarding, drunk passengers, drunk skiers, avoiding a surfacing loon—no exceptions.** This should put most responsible boaters on eggshells: Who wants to be remembered as being the one to enable HB-162?

03-01-2006, 10:43 PM	#9
upthesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 5,615 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 2,483 Thanked 1,987 Times in 1,087 Posts	Boat Gas Tax Boat gas tax is not a boat gas refund. It is a refund for virtually any non road use purchase of gasoline in this state. Farmers, homeowners with lawnmowers, etc all are eligible for the refund. Keep the registration money, earmark a portion of it, raise it $2 per boat, whatever....but to suggest eliminating the refund for boats will end up being a logistical nightmare for the state, trying to figure out who is circumventing the law and saying their lawn tractor used 430 gallons during June, July, & August. Leave that alone...messing with it would hurt more folks than it would help, especially those not involved with boating. Just my humble opinion,. APS : "A speed limit works for Lake George because the results can be quantified, and boaters know it. Officers only have to write a few tickets a year to keep a semblance of order." What enforcement there is on that lake is made simple by having more Patrol boats on the lake than we have here. Having lived an hour south of Lake George and having boated on the lake, I can tell you that there is no comparison between Lake George and Lake Winnipesaukee, in my opinion. Lake George is a very narrow lake, with no real expanse like the broads. It is more like riding on an area that is about twice as wide as Merideth Bay or Alton Bay, with islands in the middle of it. There is was then and still is plenty of speed on Lake George especially near the village end of the lake, where it is pretty much wide open. And Lake George is a state park, and unless something changed in the last few years, you pay a special Park fee to boat on the lake each year. I really do hate to see the comparisons between the two lakes, it's like trying to compare budgets and government between Laconia and Alton...apples and oranges as they say. __________________ I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!

03-02-2006, 08:20 AM	#11
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,969 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	I thought this thread was about a compromise on HB-162... APS, You are stating that the 150' rule is archaic? Are you suggestiong we dump that rule and just go with a speed limit? I have to strongly disagree! In fact one of the reasons NH is well below the national averages in boating accidents and fatalities is because of this rule! Even if an offending boat breaks the bubble and comes within 75' of you, your safety isn't really all that compromised, especially when you compare our 150' rule to the rules of navigation elsewhere. Consider that your much touted Lake George (you know that lake you love to talk about but you don't boat on) has no such rule regarding distance between moving boats. I can go by your skiff less than 10' away with a huge wake and as long as I am not going faster than 45 its all completely legal. Of course, on Lake George if I was going faster than 45 that wouldn't be a big deal either, as they only write 5-6 speeding tickets a year and the majority of those are written to PWC's who are not allowed to be within 500' of shore while on plane. They don't actively enforce the speed limit on Lake George. I know, I boat there! I don't think there are ANY other states that have a 150' Safe Passage Law (as it pertains to moving boats) on the books. The 150' Safe Passage law, while difficult to write a violation, is one of the key safety tenets of boating here in NH. It allows a large buffer zone between moving boats that keep them a safe distance apart. It works very well, and the proof of that is our low rate of collisions between moving boats. Archaic? I don't think so! To my knowledge, the only boating fatality we had last year was that kayaker who thought it was a good idea to go kayaking in a flood by himself. Nobody died from any boat on boat collisions, and the few collisions we did have occured at speeds less than the proposed 45MPH limit. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid. Last edited by Woodsy; 03-02-2006 at 09:42 AM.

03-01-2006, 06:14 PM	#1
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Works for me! I'd take it a step further on the funding end and in addition to increasing fees and expanding registration, eliminate the rebate for state gasoline tax at marinas but the money has to be earmarked for use by the Marine Patrol by statute, otherwise I think it just goes into the general fund. Eliminating the rebate on the state gas tax for boat will mean transient boaters also help pay for the increased enforcement. I think the underlying issue here is the lack of enforcement of the 150' rule, not a speed limit.

03-04-2006, 02:14 PM	#7
RegalStan2450 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would say pass a weekend and holiday speed limit like other NH lakes have. The one major thing I dislike about this law is the restrictions it puts on certain people. To say someone can't go fast on a lake with noone on it during the week, just doesn't make sense to me. I would agree with the limit if it was weekend and holiday only for compromise sake. Quick disclaimer Again I boat mostly on the weekends and my boat only goes 50 mph so this law wouldn't even effect me . Ok 55 if I am down to 10 gallons of gas,I am alone, take out all unneeded life vests and equipment and remove my second battery I just feel HB 162 does nothing for safety but our country was built on compromising.