Pressurized water alternative during outages!

[Downeast]

Hi, I thought this would be fun to share for some of you...

This is for those of you who do NOT have a generator large enough to power your well pump.

I purposely opt to not run such a beast of a noise maker for a few reasons.

As many of you know gens need to be at least 4-5,000 watts to support the well pump's startup/inrush with a short burst capability.

Inverter generators typically are not available over 3500 watts. Those that are, are expensive. I like inverter gens because their output is not dependent on engine RPM. They idle down to what's needed. They are considerably more quiet and fuel efficient. BUT, to keep it under $1500 roughly, you are limited to 2-3k. Heck you can find a nice 2000 watt inverter gen second hand for 300 at the right time. Even a new generac or the like can be found new for under 700.



This is not going to be enough for the well pump however, but they are VERY QUIET, light weight, and much much much more fuel friendly over extended days of runtime. Id rather run a 2k Honda EU for 10 days than a 10KW standby generator. It fits my budget, style and convenience liking.

That being said it, I put together a 12v RV/Marine water system in my utility room that is a stand-alone system, capable of 60 psi, does not require mains power and has it's own storage tank! A 50 gallon HDPE vertical tank in my case.
Simple and practical.

As far as hot water goes, you are going to have to ditch the electric water heater for an LP on-demand.

Doing this, you will be able to ditch the 2nd 220v requirement as these water heaters use minimal 110.. and just a small quality 2kw generator will support one of these no problem. You will have to check if your sensitive equipment will be happy on a floating neutral (like many of these small suitcase units are)

So basically for short money , you can put together a tank, pump and accumulator to give your house pressure water during outages.

I have more work to do to this set up, but you get the idea.

A ball valve is installed to close the back-up system from back feeding into the pressure tank for the house. The back up system then backfeeds into the house via a spigot downstream of the main pressure tank.

These little pumps will pump this 50 gall tank dry over and over with a deep cycle battery, but as you see here, I am only using a paralleled group of 7ah SLA cheap charlies from an old electric scooter.


At lease this way your family can have working toilets and a shower or whatever.. but be mindful, like any RV or boat, dont drink the water unless you treat it (3-5 tsp bleach per 50 gallons) .. even then, just simply use it for toilets and that emergency shower.

I realize many of you may have some better Ideas, so please feel free to chime in with your suggestions.

This is simply a way for my family to be a little more comfortable, and keep it on a budget, during those outages here in the 603

ENJOY [ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Downeast

Doing this, you will be able to ditch the 2nd 220v requirement as these water heaters use minimal 110.. and just a small quality 2kw generator will support one of these no problem. You will have to check if your sensitive equipment will be happy on a floating neutral (like many of these small suitcase units are)

You sure have put a lot of effort in this project & I hope in the end it will meet your needs.

Questions if I may:

Is there a way to bond the neutral on a "floating neutral" generator?
If my circuit panel is bonded does it make a difference?
What sensitive equipment could a "floating neutral" damage?

Thank you

[jbolty]

FWIW. I have an EZ Tankless water heater in my RV for maybe 5-6 years.

Runs off a 20# propane tank and just uses 2 D batteries for the ignition. I think I might have paid even less for it but this was the first link that searching showed up.


https://www.homedepot.com/p/EZ-Tankl...FQ9kwQodbNcGHA

[dpg]

Sounds like a lot of work for such a setup just to supply water. Also, looking at the posters signature sounds (looks) like their either in the biz or indirectly have the knowledge to pull off such a setup. Thanks but I'll save a lot of headaches and simply get a generator capable of handling the task at hand.

[SAB1]

+1 dpg.............and know I'll have heat working as well.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by dpg

.....Also, looking at the posters signature sounds (looks) like their either in the biz or indirectly have the knowledge to pull off such a setup. ..

An easy forum search of this poster yields many, many high recommendations for his skills and knowledge. Especially in regards to wiring/electronics of boats. Not sure why you called him out on this. This forum is great for subjects such as this.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

An easy forum search of this poster yields many, many high recommendations for his skills and knowledge. Especially in regards to wiring/electronics of boats. Not sure why you called him out on this. This forum is great for subjects such as this.

I agree.
I like it when someone is willing to share their talents...and for FREE!

[Descant]

I don't see anything here about heat. Wood or pellet stove is OK if you're there to tend the fire. Anyway, I like the ingenuity and think it might be good for a summer camp when we lose power due to thunderstorm, accident, etc. and don't have a generator.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

An easy forum search of this poster yields many, many high recommendations for his skills and knowledge. Especially in regards to wiring/electronics of boats. Not sure why you called him out on this. This forum is great for subjects such as this.

I have used Downeast to completely wire two boats and the assorted gauges and stereo equipment. Not only is the work better than you would get at any local marina, it is at a much cheaper rate. His work is neat and clean. From conversations with him I understand that he learned his craft working at a very high end boat manufacturer. I highly recommend him to anyone needing this type of work.

I am glad that a poster shares information about something that he has built that might help other people reading the Forum. It is a great resource for all of us.

[SIKSUKR]

Pretty creative. One reason I like my tankless hot water/boiler as part of my heating system is virtually no electricity is needed for hot water over and above my heating. My 5000 watt generator does pretty much everything I need including my water pump but I only have a 1(or 2) hp shallow well pump for my 18 ft dug well. And I only spent about $600 for it. I didnt even spend money on expensive transfer switch gear. Its not an inverter so it does run full on. fwiw

[John E]

I definitely applaud your ingenuity, and your sensitivity to excessive noise. It seems like a lot of trouble though, compared to just using a 5000W 240V non-inverter generator, which could be used just for the well pump, (when needed - to fill toilets and rare shower) and isn't damaging any electronics, and can be had for under $1K.

Not trying to be insulting by any means, it is a nice option, especially for those who already own the suitcase generator.

[dpg]

Well certainly didn't intend to "call out" the post just sayin...

[MAXUM]

The only real benefit to an invertor type of generator is that it produces good clean stable power. It has nothing to do with the engine RPM and everything to do with the fact the electricity is generated then converted to DC then that DC power is converted back to AC. That conversion process is what produces that nice clean stable power as there is a buffer between the raw power being produced and the actual output end of said generator.

Of course you can get the same effect by simply using a UPS between a conventional generator and any really sensitive electronics.

If all that concerns you is the noise there are plenty of ways to mitigate that.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

The only real benefit to an invertor type of generator is that it produces good clean stable power. It has nothing to do with the engine RPM and everything to do with the fact the electricity is generated then converted to DC then that DC power is converted back to AC. That conversion process is what produces that nice clean stable power as there is a buffer between the raw power being produced and the actual output end of said generator.

Of course you can get the same effect by simply using a UPS between a conventional generator and any really sensitive electronics.

If all that concerns you is the noise there are plenty of ways to mitigate that.

Thanks button needed. Plug your sensitive electronics into an UPS (battery backup). Not terribly expensive, and gives a nice clam flow of electricity. Besides that, if you are plugged into the battery side, you will have time to shut down the equipment before cranking the generator (assuming you are at home at the time)

Sent from my SM-T580 using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[dpg]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

The only real benefit to an invertor type of generator is that it produces good clean stable power. It has nothing to do with the engine RPM and everything to do with the fact the electricity is generated then converted to DC then that DC power is converted back to AC. That conversion process is what produces that nice clean stable power as there is a buffer between the raw power being produced and the actual output end of said generator.

Of course you can get the same effect by simply using a UPS between a conventional generator and any really sensitive electronics.

If all that concerns you is the noise there are plenty of ways to mitigate that.

What's a good way to mitigate the noise from a "Home Cheapo" model? Not being sarcastic or anything seriously wondering noise is a concern for me also.

[MAXUM]

Depends on how elaborate you want to get. I personally have done neither but offer these two options I have seen which are quite effective.

1. Buddy of mine fabricated a pretty interesting solution. The existing muffler just screws into the engine block, he removed that, took a piece of threaded pipe that fit the block port it's I think either 3/4 or maybe 1" and extended it out beyond the generator housing. From there he bought a threaded piece that took it from the diameter of the pipe coming out of the generator to something like 2.5 or 3" in diameter. From there he threaded about a 4 inch cut to size section of the larger diameter pipe into it. He then went down to the auto parts store and bought a cheap car muffler and slips that onto the 4" section sealed with a muffler clamp. He did weld on a couple pieces of angle iron to support the end of the muffler. SO at setup all you have to do is slip on the muffler and tighten the muffler clamp. It's amazingly quiet. If you so desire you can put a nice chrome tip on the exhaust end :-)

2. My neighbor constructed a three sided box made of plywood with a weather proof roof made of corrugated aluminum. He lined it with fire proof foam similar to what you see inside the engine cover of a boat. Ample breathing room must be considered here! Generator is put inside the box exhaust facing out, turn box away from the house, run and enjoy. The box cuts the noise down quite a bit. The nice thing about this setup is that he has ample overhang to really protect it from foul weather during operation. The box is held together with door hinges so you can pull the pins and disassemble it storing it flat while not in use.

Option #2 is actually pretty cool and I've thought about doing something like that myself. Of course like anything ideas like this can be certainly modified and improved to one's taste.

[dpg]

Thanks for the ideas...

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by dpg

What's a good way to mitigate the noise from a "Home Cheapo" model? Not being sarcastic or anything seriously wondering noise is a concern for me also.

Black pipe with an elbow into a 5 gallon bucket of water. Cheap, simple and works great!!

Dan

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Black pipe with an elbow into a 5 gallon bucket of water. Cheap, simple and works great!!

Dan

Do you have some sort of inline check valve to prevent back flow? That would be really bad to have the engine suck in some of that water through the exhaust pipe. Other than that, brilliant idea!

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Do you have some sort of inline check valve to prevent back flow? That would be really bad to have the engine suck in some of that water through the exhaust pipe. Other than that, brilliant idea!

No check valve and never had an issue, you just need to be sure your horizontal black pipe coming off the exhaust is above the top of the water. The 90 degree elbow faces down with another short piece of black pipe down into the water.

Dan

[SIKSUKR]

Brilliant Dan!I have to try this.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Brilliant Dan!I have to try this.

It really quiets the exhaust quite a bit but some of these cheaper generators are mechanically loud and there is not a thing you can do about that unfortunately unless you put them in some kind of shed or barn...

Dan

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Black pipe with an elbow into a 5 gallon bucket of water. Cheap, simple and works great!! Dan

My BIL simply threads a thin-wall pipe from the exhaust port, and extends it about 8-feet straight upwards. No muffler, and the noise simply disappears into the atmosphere.

This was necessary, as the generator is mounted within an RV, and some discriminating campgrounds can be very fussy about noise.



.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

It really quiets the exhaust quite a bit but some of these cheaper generators are mechanically loud and there is not a thing you can do about that unfortunately unless you put them in some kind of shed or barn...

Dan

Agreed. My older 5000 was a Briggs and Stratton and very loud. I bought a pretty cheap Husky at HD 5 years ago that has a Suzuki engine in it and it is a lot quieter and 1/2 the effort to pull start it because it has valves that stay open till it starts so the compression is a lot less. Anyway, I like your idea.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Agreed. My older 5000 was a Briggs and Stratton and very loud. I bought a pretty cheap Husky at HD 5 years ago that has a Suzuki engine in it and it is a lot quieter and 1/2 the effort to pull start it because it has valves that stay open till it starts so the compression is a lot less. Anyway, I like your idea.

"Suzuki engine", Thats interesting because I didn't know Husky was using there engines.
I know they use Subaru engines but not "Suzuki".

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

My BIL simply threads a thin-wall pipe from the exhaust port, and extends it about 8-feet straight upwards. No muffler, and the noise simply disappears into the atmosphere.

This was necessary, as the generator is mounted within an RV, and some discriminating campgrounds can be very fussy about noise.



.

I would recommend some type of bend at the top or a flapper to keep water out when not in use.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by ApS

My BIL simply threads a thin-wall pipe from the exhaust port, and extends it about 8-feet straight upwards. No muffler, and the noise simply disappears into the atmosphere.

This was necessary, as the generator is mounted within an RV, and some discriminating campgrounds can be very fussy about noise.



.

What you are describing is a “Gen-Turi” pipe, pretty standard equipment with most serious RV’ers. While it may help a little with noise, it is primarily made to get the exhaust above the roof of your RV so as not to poison your neighbors while in close quarters. Anyone who has ever been to the NASCAR races with their RV’s uses these.

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...t-system/14041

Dan

[geordie]

You can get a 6kW split phase inverter on Amazon for around $1250 that will switch seamlessly to battery when the grid goes down and then recharge when the grid comes back. It will do 18kW for 20 seconds, which should start most well pumps.

The ranch near Willits CA where we have a similar system still has the generator house from its weed growing days. The three big diesels exhausted into a water chest fed by the stream behind it. The idea was to cool, clean and silence the exhaust. But the DEA spotted the plants from their aircraft. The old diesels are out of commission, but the owner bought a 10kW and a 60kW diesel set on GovPlanet for a couple of thousand bucks. He uses those as backup for the solar/battery system.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

What you are describing is a “Gen-Turi” pipe, pretty standard equipment with most serious RV’ers. While it may help a little with noise, it is primarily made to get the exhaust above the roof of your RV so as not to poison your neighbors while in close quarters. Anyone who has ever been to the NASCAR races with their RV’s uses these. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...t-system/14041 Dan

Perhaps to make it more expensive, the $129 "Gen-Turi" ("system") has a one-inch gap in the pipe. My BIL's simple pipe has a straight run, and is astonishingly effective.

As for rain, a "T" installed at the bottom would collect any rainwater that might find its way down the narrow pipe. I'd have to ask if he made a little cap on a stick to cover the opening when the generator's not in use.

Flappers send out metallic "pings" at low operating speeds; also, I would think all designs would need to be cut off "square" at the top in order to be effective against noise.

.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

Perhaps to make it more expensive, the $129 "Gen-Turi" ("system") has a one-inch gap in the pipe. My BIL's simple pipe has a straight run, and is astonishingly effective.

As for rain, a "T" installed at the bottom would collect any rainwater that might find its way down the narrow pipe. I'd have to ask if he made a little cap on a stick to cover the opening when the generator's not in use.

Flappers send out metallic "pings" at low operating speeds; also, I would think all designs would need to be cut off "square" at the top in order to be effective against noise.

.

True about the flapper, my old Farmall clanks while idling, but at working speed (it is the backup power for our PTO generator) it is quiet.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Rusty

"Suzuki engine", Thats interesting because I didn't know Husky was using there engines.
I know they use Subaru engines but not "Suzuki".

My bad. You are correct that it is a Subaru.

[Grandpa Redneck]

Hi Downeast, Grandma Redneck and I are building an off grid cabin in northern NH, and we think something like this would be great for use there.
Could you give me a little more info on it? part #s and sources for the pump and accumulator? Would it be sufficient to pump water to a 1/2 bath in the loft bedroom? We have a spring on the property, and could gravity feed a holding tank in the basement of the cabin.
My original thought was to cannibalize the pump and tank from the camper we have on site now, But I don't know if that pump will have enough head to push the water to the loft for the sink and toilet.
Thanks