Electric Heat Replacement Options

[thinkxingu]

I'm not hearing anybody supporting solar--in my head, I was thinking with an all-electric home we could move to solar and be (almost) independent?

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not hearing anybody supporting solar--in my head, I was thinking with an all-electric home we could move to solar and be (almost) independent?

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

A neighbor with a totally electric home went with solar panels almost two years ago. He has good south/southwest exposure, and decided to purchase his system. After Federal and State credits, his cost is approximately $20,000.

He estimates a payback of about twenty years or a $1,000 a year in savings on electricity costs. His annual cost for electricity before credits for solar was approximately $3,000.

This is a straight cost/savings analysis without considering the cost of money or removal costs after the useful life of the panels. It does not include any other credits or decrease in efficiency of the system over time.

It does show it may be difficult to become energy independent with only solar.

[8gv]

Does one need a new roof just prior to a solar installation?

What happens if the roof leaks and solar panels are on it?

Is there a hazardous waste disposal expense years later when the panels are to be retired?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

A neighbor with a totally electric home went with solar panels almost two years ago. He has good south/southwest exposure, and decided to purchase his system. After Federal and State credits, his cost is approximately $20,000.

He estimates a payback of about twenty years or a $1,000 a year in savings on electricity costs. His annual cost for electricity before credits for solar was approximately $3,000.

This is a straight cost/savings analysis without considering the cost of money or removal costs after the useful life of the panels. It does not include any other credits or decrease in efficiency of the system over time.

It does show it may be difficult to become energy independent with only solar.

I think the two big benefits the OP has going for him is the access to a Natural gas line and the fact that he already has A/C. I think in this case the best bet for the OP is a gas furnace or boiler and on demand gas water heater. Additional savings could be had by changing his appliances to gas. JMO.

[NH.Solar]

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

Do you have proof the 20K spent on solar adds 20K value to a home? I'm not sure I'm seeing that yet. I know I've talked to many people that would never buy a home with solar panels on the roof.

[NH.Solar]

The short answer to the question of the full cost of a solar installation being added to the value of a home is probably not ...but that depends on the mindset of the buyer. Most of my clients are driven primarily by the financial and self powered security, but some are additionally motivated by the green aspect. Those folks are especially enthusiastic and would probably even pay a premium.
One of the issues with the overall perception of solar is the harm done by national companies that promote solar leasing as a good idea. In a few applications it might make sense, but in most it is a very bad idea. A leased solar array is a huge detriment to the value of a home, not an asset. Also in many lease sales the roof really isn't well oriented and the overall production is compromised. If utility rates have a decline those customers could actually find themselves upside down and paying more for the lease than they would for utility power. I worked very briefly for one of the larger companies to gain a perspective on their operations and found that the sales are motivated by corporate income with a callous disregard to what is best for the client.
As far as the possibility of causing potential harm to the roof goes, with modern sealants and mounting tools the risk is nil in a properly done installation. The only preliminary requirement is that a roof mounted array must be installed over a good roof. If the roof is in poor shape it must be replaced before the solar installation. The good news here is that the shingle replacement on the roof plane below the solar array can then be subject to the 30% tax credit. Also bear in mind that the roof below the solar modules won't age because it will be shaded from the harmful UV rays of the sun. A well done installation over a good roof will give you 40+ years without trouble.

[SIKSUKR]

Having an ac system already installed with the duct work in place, another option would be to replace your exterior ac unit with a heat pump to get both heat and ac and use the existing ducting. I had about 20 of these at my former mill building.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Having an ac system already installed with the duct work in place,another option would be to replace your exterior ac unit with a heat pump to get both heat and ac and use the existing ducting.I had about 20 of these at my former mill building.

This was one of the options I was considering. My summer monthly electric bill, with AC, dehumidifier, and electric appliances is around $120, which I don't think is horrible.

The real issue is heating, and I'm trying to weigh the gas, boiler, and baseboard installations (current AC ducts are only in attic) with a heat pump/mini splits.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

[SIKSUKR]

FYI. You would actually probably have to replace your heat exchanger also. They are usually matched units for size/output.

[FlyingScot]

I disagree that Cobalt's analysis is fair. As he notes, he has not included all the incentives from the government and utilities.

In Massachusetts, solar systems typically have a payback period of 6-7 years and an IRR (this is the return that should be used to compare this to other investments) of over 15%. Those are super numbers--significantly higher than one would expect from the stock market, just for example.

[8gv]

NH Solar:

Is there a material that can be installed on the ground to better capture the reflective energy in the summer?

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by 8gv

NH Solar:

Is there a material that can be installed on the ground to better capture the reflective energy in the summer?

Maybe white landscaping rock (gravel)?

Dave

Sent from my SM-T580 using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

Cobalt's analysis is fair but totally ignores three key factors; asset value, inevitable utility rate increases, and the independance of solar electricity.
$20,000 spent on a solar system is funds going to the asset value of your home, $20,000 spent on utility bills is pure expense with zero residual value. If there are two identical homes on the market and one has no solar and a monthly utility bill of $200, and the other has a solar installation and a negligible monthly bill, which do you suppose will sell for the higher price?
Utility rates and the cost of fossil fuel are directly tied together, when fuel prices increases the utility rates must follow soon thereafter. Oil is relatively cheap right now but do you remember the period less than ten years ago when gas was $4+ per gallon? Bear in mind that right now the NHEC is installing thir own solar array on Moultonboro Neck. You can be sure that they have carefully weighed the current and future costs and risks.
Finally, oil is currently less than $65 per barrel but where will the price go if (when?) one of the major refineries is taken out by disaster or terrorism?
But you can be sure that with every morning the sun will rise...

These are all fair points in a rising rate environment. My neighbor and I both have completely electric homes. Both of us have Bryant Evolution 23 SEER heat pumps. He went the solar panel route, but does not have access to natural gas. I have access to natural gas, and requested an estimate to install a natural gas furnace in the attic that can be mated to the Bryant. I do not have the proposal as of this writing, and these posts pushed me to look at my neighbor's utility bills and request a proposal.

He installed a new roof before going with solar. He owns the system so no liens on the property if you borrow the money. Before credits, he spend close to $45,000 for the panels and new roof. His roof had five years left, and would need replacement. This is just another potential cost in conjunction with solar panels. Clearly, you don't want to install over an older roof.

In responding to the original poster, I believe a natural gas high efficiency furnace may prove to be the less costly, and a better option to save money. Also, I would argue it will add more to the resale value of the property as compared to solar panels. Just my view.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

These are all fair points in a rising rate environment. My neighbor and I both have completely electric homes. Both of us have Bryant Evolution 23 SEER heat pumps. He went the solar panel route, but does not have access to natural gas. I have access to natural gas, and requested an estimate to install a natural gas furnace in the attic that can be mated to the Bryant. I do not have the proposal as of this writing, and these posts pushed me to look at my neighbor's utility bills and request a proposal.

He installed a new roof before going with solar. He owns the system so no liens on the property if you borrow the money. Before credits, he spend close to $45,000 for the panels and new roof. His roof had five years left, and would need replacement. This is just another potential cost in conjunction with solar panels. Clearly, you don't want to install over an older roof.

In responding to the original poster, I believe a natural gas high efficiency furnace may prove to be the less costly, and a better option to save money. Also, I would argue it will add more to the resale value of the property as compared to solar panels. Just my view.

I agree with you whole heartedly. I haven't seen proof that solar panel installation on a roof increases the value of a home. I think most people view it as an ugly feature on a home, I know I do. I have a friend of mine that works for a solar company and he handles the complaints. He's a very busy boy! A few years ago when we had that real bad winter that's all he did was handle roof leak complaints and they recommend to every customer to replace the roof before installing solar panels.