Smoking Ban Loses in Senate by 1 Vote

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Patrick's went none smoking a few months ago and seems to be doing fine.

What happened to freedom of choice, personal responsibility, free market enterprise, etc., etc? It seems more and more that people want the government to take resposibility for them when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.

If a business owner wants to go smoke free great, if another doesn't his / her choice. I'll choose to patronize whichever I choose. Employees can follow suit. If that great a percentage of our population (I saw the poll as well) wants smoking banned in restaurants, let them vote with their feet and pocketbooks. Its much more effective and will save the tax payers the burden of a new "non smoking enforcement" department.

[csuhockey3]

Hey Folks,

I live out here in Loveland Colorado (just south of Fort Collins). Fort Collins passed a ban a few years ago and it's been great! We don't go to any restaurants or bars down here in Loveland because once you go without the smoke, you notice it a LOT more than you did in the past. It's nice going out to dinner/bar and not have to throw your clothes in the washing machine right away to get rid of the smoke permeating throughout your closet! If I wanted to smell like college, I'd go back to school

Colorado just passed a state-wide ban effective July 1 a few weeks ago (with some exceptions like cigar bars, casinos and the airport smoking lounge) -- I can't wait and I hope NH does the same. I see both sides of the argument, but what a difference it has made out here. Most bars now have covered and heated patios for smokers and it doesn't seem to cause much of a problem. Ahead of the ban, some restaurants/bars have already gone smoke free. I love it, but that's just my .02!

[Woodsy]

I am not a smoker, and never was a smoker.

I do have an issue with government mandates. Look at our illustrious neighbor to the south. The Democratic Peoples Commonwealth Of Massachusetts. It started with cities and towns banning smoking in bars & restaurants, then it went statewide to bars & restaurants (because of "unfair competition") Now you can't even smoke outside in some cities and towns... it just never ends. But they seem to have no problem selling cigarettes and taxing the heck out of them.

The restaurants & bars can decide whats best for thier business. I have no doubt that most restaurants in the state will go no smoking relatively quickly. Those that don't might find a niche business and actually make money catering to the nicotine crowd. (for the record, I tend to patronize non-smoking establishments) but sometimes a nice cigar and a brandy after dinner is just what the doctor ordered.

Don't even get me started on the new MA Healthcare plan... was supposed to cost the avg uninsured joe $200/mo and now its ballooned to $400... and its mandatory... pay the insurance man or pay the state fines!


Get off your butt and take responsibility for yourself and your actions! It is not the governments job to babysit you!

Woodsy

[csuhockey3]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Get off your butt and take responsibility for yourself and your actions! It is not the governments job to babysit you!

I agree, but it IS the government's job to listen to their constituency -- people out here spoke loud and clear that they wanted a ban, and it sounds much the same out there. Woodsy, I too love a nice cigar and a scotch every rare now and then, but I wouldn't dream of smoking anywhere near kids or non-smokers...I just think it's rude.

[secondcurve]

Woodsy:

I can't tell you how ignorant you sound. Many of the people posting here are from Massachusetts. There are two sides to every issue and the people on this site are very good at airing out the issues confronting the Lakes Region and New Hampshire. Think before you post and maybe you will be able persuade some folks to support your arguement.


Thanks.

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Woodsy:

I can't tell you how ignorant you sound. Many of the people posting here are from Massachusetts. There are two sides to every issue and the people on this site are very good at airing out the issues confronting the Lakes Region and New Hampshire. Think before you post and maybe you will be able persuade some folks to support your arguement.


Thanks.

I think woodsy has very valid points to make and so do you, but please dont turn this disscussion Into a Mass. attack. oh and by the way, Im a native NH.

fpartri497

[Paugus Bay Resident]

CSU,

but it IS the government's job to listen to their constituency

I agree to some extent, but is also their responsiblity to apply some reasoning (which is one of the biggest things I think is missing in our society) and interpret the constitution. I have no doubt that some of our forefathers are rolling over in their graves.

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

If they feel so strongly you shouldn't smoke, ban cigarette sales all together. I agree they want the tax revenues but they don't want you to smoke. Let the owner of the business decide how they want to run their establishment. Most don't let people smoke today anyway. If I don't want to deal with the smoke, I'll go somewhere else.
What's next, alcohol? Why are their bars when you shouldn,t drink and drive. Once again, the state wants the revenues.

[ITD]

As hard as it is to read, I agree with Woodsy (mostly). The health care plan in Taxachusetts will drive more business out of state. I've pretty much finished Howie Carr's new book, The Brother's Bulger and what little faith I had in Mass. Pols. is gone. Government should stay out of my life and my wallet. When ever you hear "we're from the government and we're here to help" be afraid.

[Woodsy]

SecondCurve..

I am sorry if I come across as ignorant. There used to be a time in this country when people took personal responsibility for the consequences of thier actions. This is no longer the case. There seems to be a need to have government micromanage your life, shift responsibility from the individual and place blame elsewhere all with the big goal of extracting a large financial penalty. Thank you lawyers!

I think it was sometime in the 60's warning labels appeared on cigarette packaging, and the anti-smoking crusade began. Yet, somehow people after that date are still awarded millions of dollars because they CHOSE to smoke, then got cancer or some other serious illness. In the meantime our illustrious lawmakers decided not to outlaw cigarettes, but tax them... but the tax money doesn't go into helping smokers... nope it gets put in the general fund to be spent on other things... same goes for the multi-billion dollar cigarette settlement money!

NH is one of the last bastions of less government is better. MA is almost completely opposite of this philosohy. I am not bashing MA, it seems to work for them.

Businesses should be allowed to decide whats best for thier business. Let free enterprise determine the course, not another silly law. In the Weirs, the Crazy Gringo (formerly Nothin' Fancy), and the Paradise Beach Club are both going to be non-smoking this year.

I prefer going to non-smoking establishments. If I were a parent (I'm not, and quite frankly shouldn't be alllowed to breed LOL!) I wouldn't bring my kids to a restaurant that allows smoking. If I were to have a nice cigar and a Brandy it certainly wouldn't be at the table, but at the bar. But thats me and my CHOICE.

Woodsy

[Zee]

Woodsy, you hardly sound ignorant. Your voicing an opinion many agree with but are too afraid to say out loud. As much as I hate the smell of smoke, I am glad the ban failed. I am just sorry that it was only by a margin of one. I have been concerned with how NH politics is definitely swinging to the left. The further south you go in the state, the more obvious this is. I'm hanging on to hope that the state hasn't gone past the mid-point. IN MY OPINION, one of the attractions, FOR ME, is that this state has a reputation for its less-government and let-live attitude. I sure hope that attitude prevails. With the influx of more liberal MA folks, that will and is changing. BTW, I'm a native NH but have lived in MA most of my life. I will be a permanent resident again next year but I am a non-voting taxpayer now. I sure wish I could vote for the legislators of my choice.

Regarding Woodsy's comments on "getting off your butt and taking responsibility for yourself and your actions", I also agree with that. That unfortunately is a problem in all states. People seem to need direction and laws to lead them. Common sense seems to be in short supply. I see it first hand as a school administrator in MA. Whether its the parents, teachers or the students (and yes, administrators!) ARGHHH, I'm starting to ramble. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Oh, as far as Patrick's, we used to go often and refused to sit in the bar area because of the smoke. We went a few weeks ago and had a wonderful time in the smoke free bar. They sure didn't seem to be lacking for customers! It's a wonderful world!

[Grant]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I am not a smoker, and never was a smoker.

I do have an issue with government mandates. ...

Get off your butt and take responsibility for yourself and your actions! It is not the governments job to babysit you!

Woodsy

Amen. While not a smoker or a fan of smoky places, I am vehemently opposed to the "Nanny Nation" nonsense being rammed down our throats in this country. Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, smoking bans...where do common sense, self preservation and responsibility come into play?

[xstrapolator]

The only thing that bothers me about this not passing is that it was so close. The state senate used to have more sense. Oh, and BTW, I don't smoke.

[Gatto Nero]

Are you noticing a trend here? Seems that most, if not all, posters that are opposed to the ban are also non-smokers? Admittedly a minute sample but maybe that 79% in favor was an aberration or fabrication

[upthesaukee]

Check out your favorite (or not so favorite) Senator's vote on this issue here:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/r...teno=56&body=S

[secondcurve]

Woodsy:

Thanks for your response and clarification. I understand your point of view and although I don't fully agree, you present a good case. Have a nice weekend.

[gravy boat]

As a former smoker (10 weeks and counting, thankyouverymuch) after 25 years, I never had an issue stepping outside if I wanted to light up. I viewed it as common courtesy to those still eating, whether smokers or non-smokers.

One could argue that the government has no place in forcing smokers to refrain -- after all, it's their right to do as they please when it comes to their health.

And yet the same folks who expect independence in choice expect the same government to protect them in other areas -- food and drug supply, production, distribution, etc.

We tend to pick and choose the control we relinquish.

Too much tobacco CAN kill -- it's not a guarantee.
Too much alcohol CAN kill -- it's not a guarantee.
Too much peanut butter CAN kill -- it's not a guarantee.
In any case, you choose to consume an unhealthy amount, you run the risk. You knew the risks, you made the choice, you deal with the consequences. End of story.

Shouldn't we each take responsibility for our own actions and decisions? If I want to live by the "Consequences be damned" motto, it should be my choice. And if I make that choice, I have no right to blame my government, my neighboor, the local tobacco company, my spouse, etc. Choice is individual.

Gravy

[secondcurve]

Gravy:

The biggest problem with your arguement is that most smokers start when they are children, a time when they don't know any better. Once they start, usually they can't quit since smoking is addictive. I hate cigarettes, I've seen up close what they can do to people.

Is it a smokers right to throw their butts anywhere they happen to finish them? It is amazing that nearly all smokers don't view butts as trash, as evidenced by the fact that there certainly are plenty in the lake on the streets, etc. I understand the government should stay out of our lives arguement, but when it comes to smoking I'll let it do all it can to limit smoking. Peanut butter and alcohol may or may not be bad for a person, cigarettes always are bad.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Gravy:

The biggest problem with your arguement is that most smokers start when they are children, a time when they don't know any better. Once they start, usually they can't quit since smoking is addictive. I hate cigarettes, I've seen up close what they can do to people.

This has nothing to do with banning of children smoking in public places. I would hope the parents or guardians would be with them in the restaurants.

Is it a smokers right to throw their butts anywhere they happen to finish them? It is amazing that nearly all smokers don't view butts as trash, as evidenced by the fact that there certainly are plenty in the lake on the streets, etc.

There are already laws on the books for littering. Let's enforce them, not create more laws.

[Dave R]

NH has allowed a ban on smoking forever. Anyone who owns property can ban smoking on/in it. No need to force anyone to ban smoking, as far as I'm concerned.

I am a non-smoker and I choose to frequent establishments that do not allow smoking because that's what I prefer. In my small town we have basically two full service restaurants that serve dinner. One allows smoking one does not. It's perfect. I haven't been in the smoke filled one in years. I don't miss it at all.

Quick little civics lesson:

Representatives are supposed to vote based on the desires of their constituents. They voted to pass this law because the majority of us wanted it.

Senators are supposed to vote with common sense and protect us from popular, but bad ideas. They have obviously decided that now is not the best time to have a smoking ban.

The Senate also recently voted to reduce traffic fines, probably because they felt the state raised the fines solely for revenue growth, and not for the good of the residents. Three cheers!

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Grant

Amen. While not a smoker or a fan of smoky places, I am vehemently opposed to the "Nanny Nation" nonsense being rammed down our throats in this country. Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, smoking bans...where do common sense, self preservation and responsibility come into play?

As a SCUBA diver of Lake Winnipesaukee's clear waters, you'd be opposed to a Bottle Bill from "The Nanny Nation" ?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

"...What happened to freedom of choice, personal responsibility, free market enterprise, etc., etc? It seems more and more that people want the government to take resposibility for them when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves..."

Answers?

We've gotten smarter, and it's gotten crowded.

1) As to tobacco smoke: Shall we return to those LFOD days when smoking was permitted anywhere aboard a commercial jet aircraft?

2) As to helmets, Woodsy can relate a LFOD story regarding helmet-free motorcycling and a wandering deer. (Our nanny-state requires the wearing of eye protection also, but there's that enforcement thingy again).

3) As to seatbelts, it'd be my preference that you be belted-in behind the steering wheel rather than try to steer from the passenger's footwell should you be punted by another vehicle into my lane.

4) Following countless unprovoked attacks, Ontario [Province] has banned pit-bull ownership: Where does a LFOD-defense enter here?

Originally Posted by Grant

"...where do common sense, self preservation and responsibility come into play?

5) Many years ago, wouldn't you object to a stranger's placing their spitoon on your restaurant table? It's no different than with smoking—except that tobacco smoke is worse!

6) Most self-preserving tourists (and all the non-smokers among us) might balk at visiting a new restaurant: Restaurants would be helped by a ban!

7) It's not a LFOD issue with Senators. They are being real smart to keep the cigarette tax money flowing: It's a $463 million budget-balancer and is flowing-in from all NH borders.

8) Responsibility? Every cigarette butt in the street (and lake) bears mute testimony to that.

Alternately, we can strike a balance, which is what I would strive for. Most people agree that society needs basic human decency to function, even if this takes away your personal liberty to drive 60-MPH in a school zone or play fetch with your pitbull at a playground.

[Gatto Nero]

It looks as though it is starting to happen the right way. Here is a link to the Citizen that discusses several Meredith restaurants banning together and going non-smoking. Congrats to them for doing the right thing.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...-1/citizen0103

[schase02]

Here in El Paso, they first made it illegal to smoke in public restaurants, that shortly followed by public bars and nightclubs, followed shortly by a ban to smoke within certain number of feet from a public entrance, and finally in any public building.

I have to disagree that banning smoking would be a boon for establishments. Those who smoke and like to smoke after a meal without standing outside in the cold will just not go out. Those who desire to eat a meal without smoke around will be more likely to go out. After they passed laws here, I take my business just outside city limits. Interestingly enough, those establishments that before the ban were not doing so hot - now are.

I wouldn't have had a problem if they made establishments section-off (including it's own ventilation system) a smoking section to meet the desires of their customers. But they didn't, and it's about impossible to determine the impact on businesses as this area is growing very fast. Not to mention the soon influx of 16K soldiers to Ft. Bliss.

It is a personal choice, I am against excessive regulation on business owners or private citizens. The spitoon notation is nothing different, if you do not feel comfortable there, it is your choice as a consumer not to give your business to that establishment. Two sides to every story indeed. My nextdoor neighbor has no right to tell me if I can smoke or not smoke. Nor would I have the right to blow smoke in their face.

It does come down to responsibility, I smoke, but I do not toss butts anywhere, if I am around non-smokers I walk away. But If I am smoking and they come to where I am, I will continue to smoke as it was their choice to go where I am. (not talking a sidewalk or entrance here). The argument is then made that they have the right to be any public place and not be subject to second hand smoke. True to a degree, but as public property, anyone has a right to be there - or to walk a different direction, myself included. What would you do if your on public property and come across someone with really bad body oder - stand there? It's a concious choice we make. I've been *followed* before by people who do the dramatic coughing. By followed I mean, I've gotten out of their way, wind not blowing back at them, and they move closer to me followed by dramatic coughing, I move again, the process repeats. You can understand the smokers that tell them to go inside if they do not care for it.

Personally I hate smoking, I'd love to quit. Believe it or not theres a slight medical condition that cigarette smoking helps me quite a bit. But interesting discussion on this topic.

[Gatto Nero]

It looks as though the ban might pass this time around.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...135/-1/CITIZEN

I think I'm going to pull a John Kerry and flip flop on this issue. I had said previously that it wasn't necessarily the state's business to be regulating smoking policy to restaurants but a recent trip to the Bad Moose has changed my thinking. Some friends and I went to see Ricky and the Giants there a while back. The band was great but we ended up leaving after the first break because of a couple of smokers behind us. I didn't notice too many people smoking but the ones that were really did a number on us. It was a real bummer because there aren't too many other places with live music in the area. We haven't been back since but probably will once this law takes effect. I still think it would be better, from my perspective, if they restaurants did it on there own, but according to this article maybe this will make it easier on them too.

[Grant]

Gatto:

Funny, when I started reading your post, I was reminded of an evening last February when my brother-in-law and I went to see Ricky and the Giants at the Bad Moose. Great fun -- and arguably one of the best bar/cover bands I've ever had the pleasure of seeing (that guitarist is incredible). The one bummer of the evening was the smoke stench that permeated our clothing. And we both grew up in heavy smoking households -- although he never smoked (I did). It was the only bad part of an otherwise great night of food, drink and music.

These bans are a tough call. While I'm utterly opposed to the "Nanny Nation" mentality that wants to regulate everything we do -- from cradle to grave (yo, can we live free or die, or what?), and I understand the owner's quandary. I think that if an establishment wants to allow smoking, then the folks who patronize the place have to live with it or go somewhere else. Simple.

[Gatto Nero]

It is a tough call and not one that I would normally stand behind. I don't like the idea of state laws regulating my life any more then the next guy, but I do like the results of this one. For me, in this case, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

When you saw Ricky did he call his sister up for a few songs? She blew us away Janice Joplin's "Me & Bobby McGee". She can whale.

[Grant]

I agree -- and I am now really waffling -- I would still go there and enjoy it, but it certainly would be nicer if smoke-free.

And, no, I wish she had joined them last year. I was hoping to catch them again during the summer, but they weren't around whenever we were up there. Maybe when I open up this spring.

Their web site has dates and places.

[Hermit Cover]

on Fox TV....a new show called "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader"...Are they kidding us adults? Of course adults are smarter than a 5th grader....aren't we??

[fatlazyless]

So what's happening politically here in NH? Supposedly, the last time the Dems had this much clout was when Concord native, Franklin Pierce, was the prez, in 1852-1856. Smoking bans, boat speed limits and who knows what else? It was some type of perfect political storm that comes along every 150 years and done changed things here in the Granite State.

Hopefully, it's just a temporary fling and after the November 2008 election, everything will be right in NH once again for another 150 years. First things, the restored Republican majority will do will be to rescind the smokin', speed limits amd whatever other weird laws the Dems can cook up during their two-year stint and make NH right, again.

NH Repubicans may be down now but will be back!

[LadyKey]

When will the decision be made in Concord NH about smoking in restaurants/bars?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by schase02

"...I wouldn't have had a problem if they made establishments section-off (including it's own ventilation system) a smoking section to meet the desires of their customers..."

Sorta like the Wolfeboro Tavern?

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Gatto Nero

It looks as though it is starting to happen the right way. Here is a link to the Citizen that discusses several Meredith restaurants banning together and going non-smoking. Congrats to them for doing the right thing.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...-1/citizen0103

Imagine with out the need for a new law. My guess is that they will benefit from their decision and others will fallow quickly. Some will not and they can have the smoking clientele. I have walked out of many bars due to smoke but respect that others enjoy it. It was not big deal, I just took my business to another place