Wow trail

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by jetskier

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...b58f6d6f1.html

Incidentally, the economic study that the city of Laconia has commissioned with Alta is going to cost about $40k. The original Lipman proposal was $10k to be paid for by the WOW Committee. So now, tax payer dollars are funding a study to remove the tracks and shut down two businesses. Really!

Jetskier

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

They are the Hobo railroad which runs the tourist train along the route and NH Southern Railroad which runs freight in the spring and fall via that route.

The Hobo Railroad has a contract with the state for operation along the route and NH Southern Railroad is a common carrier with a federal license to operate.

The Hobo railroad would be completely shutdown and the NH Southern Railroad would lose the northern portion of their operating route.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.

[winnipiseogee]

Thanks Trail Goer - thats really interesting information. I had no idea that the railway line was still being used to anything near that extent.

[Trail Goer]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...d6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...d6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

Well written and very informative letter. As I have stated I do like the WOW trail but discontinuing and sacrificing the rail to extend the trail is a horrible idea.

[Fargo]

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

That is true the trail must be along the rail line for federal assistance. Our resident expert jetskier I'm sure can give the specifics of the Rail to Trail legislation

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Major

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

This is a misnomer. The federal funding program is set up to cover a wide variety of alternative transportation projects. It was covered under what was known as MAP-21 (see below for applicable catagories) and now known as FAST. We have proposed running the trail along the far side of Paugus Bay (Lakeport avenue) as one of the alternative route proposals. Several of the merchants have indicated that this would be welcome as they don't even have a contiguous sidewalk. In addition, this route would go past a significant number of businesses. The route along the railroad passes virtually no businesses.

Note that NH DOT is the administrative entity for applying for Federal transportation money and they have broad discretion in distribution of funds under FAST.

The Commissioner (I believe actually the assistant Commissioner) of NH DOT held a public meeting in Meredith on December 5th. From what I heard, there is very little Federal money available even for primary transportation initiatives at the moment.

Jetskier


https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/map21/factsheets/tap.cfm
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/fastact/fac...rnativesfs.cfm

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

The city has required many builders and developers along Weirs Boulevard to build sidewalks in front of their property as a condition of approval of the project and the issuance of a building permit.

In many cases that sidewalk stands alone and the adjacent property topography is such that there will never be a sidewalk that connects to it. But, you can't fight city hall (and expect to win)

[boat_guy64]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

[birchhaven]

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

The city is paying $40k for an economic study essentially to try to rationalize removing the tracks. It is interesting that the city has money for this and not other initiatives (such as Milfoil eradication)....but that is a topic for another time.

The WOW trail has been funded with Federal money for alternative transportation...a prerequisite is that all motorized vehicles are banned. Right now the railway along Paugus is part of the state wide snowmobile trail system. If the WOW trail is built, then snowmobiles etc...will not be permitted.

Jetskier

[birchhaven]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The city is paying $40k for an economic study essentially to try to rationalize removing the tracks. It is interesting that the city has money for this and not other initiatives (such as Milfoil eradication)....but that is a topic for another time.

The WOW trail has been funded with Federal money for alternative transportation...a prerequisite is that all motorized vehicles are banned. Right now the railway along Paugus is part of the state wide snowmobile trail system. If the WOW trail is built, then snowmobiles etc...will not be permitted.

Jetskier

Hi JetSkier,

My opinion of the trail goes back and forth. I do find all arguement people use for and against paper thin. Basic political fear mongering. For instance the crime argument is a joke. Does anyone really think criminals care if they have to walk on tracks or a trail to break into someones house. (I would actually think they would prefer no trail, so less eyes on there activity). The homeless people living on the tracks always did, now people just see it because now they use the trail.

I understand that the federal money requires that. I am saying that I disagree with that requirement and I think the money could be raised else where so that, snowmobiles, golf carts, etc can use the trail. As state property other things like UTVs should be allow to use it not just snowmobiles (whole other conversation). The federal requirement has a purpose I don't think it works well in our area. A big part of the enjoyment of the lakes region is all the toys people use and the trail system should lean on that not push it away.

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.

Like I said my opinion changes like the wind on this subject, but at the monent after seeing those numbers, I gotta say I am pro trail.

[8gv]

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

[Outdoorsman]

There is an obvious solution to the issues in this area.

The State should take all the SD/LB property by eminent domain. Build the new WOW trail on the lower portion of the land. Pave the rest of the property to make a nice parking lot for the casino that is being built on the State School property. To take it one step further, they can use a shuttle (make it look like a trolley if you want) that can transport people to downtown Laconia so they can raze the parking garage that is falling down.

Three problems solved with one solution AND a new shuttle business is created.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by 8gv

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

I didn't know that you could prevent people from walking on that tracks that are adjacent to your property. Interesting!

Would the same law that would keep people from walking on the tracks near your property enable homeowners in other areas to prevent people from walking down the public street that is adjacent to their house?

[8gv]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I didn't know that you could prevent people from walking on that tracks that are adjacent to your property. Interesting!

Would the same law that would keep people from walking on the tracks near your property enable homeowners in other areas to prevent people from walking down the public street that is adjacent to their house?

My understanding is that unauthorized track walking is trespassing.

There are places where crossing the tracks is permitted by prior arrangement.

I reserve the right to be corrected though.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by 8gv

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

Completely disagree. Trail or rail makes no difference they will walk along no matter what is there. If you call the police at 10pm to say someone is walking along the rail line they may respond but isn’t certainly not a priority. I’m speaking as someone who was broken into from people walking in from the rail line.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[8gv]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Completely disagree. Trail or rail makes no difference they will walk along no matter what is there. If you call the police at 10pm to say someone is walking along the rail line they may respond but isn’t certainly not a priority. I’m speaking as someone who was broken into from people walking in from the rail line.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Sorry to hear of the break in.

My point is that currently the late evening rail walkers have no legitimate reason for being there. Maybe the police come, maybe they don't.

The trail would give more access and a level of legitimacy that might not warrant a visit from the police.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Sorry to hear of the break in.

My point is that currently the late evening rail walkers have no legitimate reason for being there. Maybe the police come, maybe they don't.

The trail would give more access and a level of legitimacy that might not warrant a visit from the police.

Understood. Just don't think its a major reason to turn down the trail. Although I am in favor of the trail, I do have quite a few requirements for the project to move forward in my eyes as I have stated in above posts.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Understood. Just don't think its a major reason to turn down the trail. Although I am in favor of the trail, I do have quite a few requirements for the project to move forward in my eyes as I have stated in above posts.

If a trail gets built and has a lot of legit users then it may deter thieves because of more people around. Also most of the rail trails that I've used are patrolled by police where as the railroad trail is not unless someone calls and reports suspicious activity.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

Hi JetSkier,

My opinion of the trail goes back and forth. I do find all arguement people use for and against paper thin. Basic political fear mongering. For instance the crime argument is a joke. Does anyone really think criminals care if they have to walk on tracks or a trail to break into someones house. (I would actually think they would prefer no trail, so less eyes on there activity). The homeless people living on the tracks always did, now people just see it because now they use the trail.

I understand that the federal money requires that. I am saying that I disagree with that requirement and I think the money could be raised else where so that, snowmobiles, golf carts, etc can use the trail. As state property other things like UTVs should be allow to use it not just snowmobiles (whole other conversation). The federal requirement has a purpose I don't think it works well in our area. A big part of the enjoyment of the lakes region is all the toys people use and the trail system should lean on that not push it away.

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.

Like I said my opinion changes like the wind on this subject, but at the monent after seeing those numbers, I gotta say I am pro trail.

Hi birchhaven,

First, the crime argument is no joke. I am attaching a link to a 91-A disclosure of the police activity (does not include the fire department activity) from 2016 to November of 2018. There are issues with homeless encampments, drugs, transients accosting pedestrians. This is no joke!

You can't take federal alternative transportation money and allow motorized trail use...period! The existing phase 1 and phase 2 segments of the trail are 50% subsidized by federal money.

The railroad(s) - Winnipesaukee Scenic, Hobo, New England Southern and Lafayette Dinner train are all active and create revenue, jobs and secondary benefits. The repair depot in Lincoln also relies on the railway. So, there is substantial impact to removing the tracks. Personally, I have never heard anyone say that they are coming up to the lake for the reason of using the WOW trail.

Jetskier

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/580...kc5_916831.pdf

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.

$100K to the state, the numbers don't lie and I don't think the are offering to pay more than the 10% they are required. I have no idea what their overhead cost are but if it were a million a year then they would be out business or in that case they would be making far more than 1 million a year which you claim is impossible, since the trains according to your assertion are empty. Do you work in the railroad industry, do you know how much it cost to maintain railroad tracks to FRA Class 1 standards?
You're mud slinging unfounded info at a wall and hoping it sticks, you don't like the train that's fine, that's your opinion but if your going to argue your point, use facts don't just make stuff up.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.

I missed this one
Forget the city, what does the state gain by allowing the trail in place of rail? you honestly think the state would still receive the same investment in return? My understanding of the lease agreement, is that the 10% of the railroad's revenue, is on top of a regular flat rate fee the railroad already pays. The state stands to lose a lot of money if the rail disappeared. You know as well as I do, the trail will never recover any money for the state. Does the state even get any money for the trail that exist now?

[Trail Goer]

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resour...ty%20Study.pdf

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resour...ty%20Study.pdf

Our tax dollars hard at work. NOT.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resour...ty%20Study.pdf

Do the people on the City Board know about the previous study?

Woodsy

[8gv]

In my career the folks trying to influence us had a practice we called “Vote till you get it right”.

Maybe this is “Study till you get it right”?

[tis]

Originally Posted by 8gv

In my career the folks trying to influence us had a practice we called “Vote till you get it right”.

Maybe this is “Study till you get it right”?

Or maybe just "Have them vote till you get it passed!!!" They keep trying! I can't think of a town that didn't keep trying until the voters passed it and they got what they wanted.

[Trail Goer]

Correct, they will keep trying till they get the outcome they desire but it will all come at the tax payers’ expense because last I checked the WOW trail couldn't even come up with the money on their own, like they were supposed to (yet somehow the trail will be an economic boom). It will take the tax payers to say enough, is enough but that's unlikely to happen considering the majority probably aren't aware nor care (what was the voter turnout yesterday for Laconia?). Supposedly some towns had under 20% of the registered voter turnout, so that should give you an idea of how many people don't pay attention to what's going on nor care to. It's clear this study is going to be a number crunching study vs physical infrastructure/layout study like the first one. They’re going to try and come up with facts and figures that support the trail vs rail. It's the same old scheme that is played out all over, whether it's here, New York or California. My biggest gripe is with those facts and figures; how can they come up with facts and figures? there's no user fees and they have no way to tell how many people use the trail and be able to break it down to visitors and locals. A simple survey sent out to residents and area businesses just doesn't cut it for me, yet we have a railroad that can tell you exactly how much they get for ridership every year and you know those riders are going to spend money outside of the railroad for food and what not because the majority that ride the train are not from around here.

[Woodsy]

We know that rail trails work around the country... if they weren't working at all people would not be building them. There will be some economic benefit, how much is up for debate. That being said...

The WOW trail needs to coexist with the existing railroad, just like does from Lakeport to Belmont.

The real issue here is the NIMBY folks in Southdown...


Woodsy

[8gv]

Rail trails are built through the efforts of committed supporters and government money.

That does not mean there is an ROI that exceeds that which would be derived by alternative projects.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

We know that rail trails work around the country... if they weren't working at all people would not be building them. There will be some economic benefit, how much is up for debate. That being said...

The WOW trail needs to coexist with the existing railroad, just like does from Lakeport to Belmont.

The real issue here is the NIMBY folks in Southdown...


Woodsy

Of course they work the purpose of rail trails were to make use of abandoned ones, but today trail advocates are going after active lines.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Of course they work the purpose of rail trails were to make use of abandoned ones, but today trail advocates are going after active lines.

Like I said... they need to co-exist.

This "new" study is purely political... it is driven by Alan Beetle (of Patrick's fame) and good ole Rusty McLear (of Common Man fame). Both have considerable political clout.

The railroad makes Rusty no $$$... but the rail trail might make him a few!


Woodsy

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Like I said... they need to co-exist.

Woodsy

I am not trying to pick a fight with you, more of a clarification, but when you say co-exist what do you mean, in the same place like side by side or just co-exist meaning two entities operating?

I would tend to lean to the side of you are saying co-exist as in side by side, why would the railroad need to do this or why would anyone have to allow them to do this?

again not a fight just clarification

[Trail Goer]

Co-exist... side by side. The problem with phase 3 is that there's not enough room for both trail and rail, like there was in phases 1 and 2. The trail can co-exist in phase 3 but in the areas where there's only room for one the trail has to make detours and construct sidewalks along streets to get around the "bottleneck areas" and there's at least 2 if not 3 sections - the causeway over Pickerel Cove, the Rte. 3 overpass (which is often referred to as the tunnel) and possibly the causeway over Chattle Cove. The trail supporters, don't want to do this for a number of reasons: money and construction cost are probably the biggest reason, others don't want the trail to venture away from the lake (more appealing to the eye vs sidewalks along streets going by buildings/houses) and last but not least, some just don't want to see the big noisy train anymore. Then you have the issue with Southdown where they don't want the trail to be built period and want the track and train to stay.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

The state does not subsidize any railroad, it doesn't even subsidize the Downeaster which is a government subsidized operation. The Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad is a for profit railroad, if they don't make money, they wouldn't be in business. All the railroads that operate on state owned tracks, operate in accordance to the lease agreement with the state. If the lease agreement states the state is responsible for x amount of dollars for track maintenance, then that is what the state agreed too.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by boat_guy64

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

The New England Southern Railroad ran a load over the tracks a few weeks back. I posted a picture (another one attached) and there was a picture in the Laconia Daily Sun. First, the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Scenic railroad pay the state for use of the rail road ROW. The state is responsible for maintaining the railway. The numbers that I heard is that the revenue for the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Railroad was about $1M and they paid the state $100k.

The New England Southern Railroad is a federally licensed common carrier with rights to use the railroad.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by boat_guy64

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/librar..._fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

[boat_guy64]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/librar..._fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

1. I don't know. but I saw them work for weeks on places that didn't make the news. I saw the tracks floating 30 feet in the air in Ashland where all of the ground was washed away. I saw the culverts replaced in Meredith Bay. I wish I knew how much it cost.

2. I've never seen freight (and I have years of footage on my webcam) on this line. They may have to give someone the rights but we all know it has never been used in modern times.

3. No....just an Engineer but smart enough to know that many spikes are 75% out of the wood and would not take a heavy load. They replaced many ties in front of my house this year. They left the area a mess. Not sure why DES doesn't hold the railroad accountable for keeping our waterfront clean.

4. Look on google maps. There are many pinch points. Unless the trail reroutes through private land and only public roads, there is no path along the RR for both the train and people. It would be alot easier and provide much easier access if they just ripped out the rails like has been done in so many southern NH areas (Londonderry and Windham) and Northern areas (Colebrook and Pittsburg)

[Trail Goer]

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

Hi Trail Goer,

Thank you for your factual comments. I have personally talked to the owner of the New England Southern Railroad multiple times. I can tell you emphatically that he has no intent to discontinue freight service along his northern corridor (Concord to Lincoln).

You are correct that it is typically the rail carrier that owns the right of way that files for discontinuance. In this case, the taking was by the state and both the Hobo Railroad and New England Southern Railroad have licenses with the state. New England Southern is licensed with STB as a common carrier...so they also have a federal license to operate. The historical rule has been that a rail line is not formally abandoned unless it has been unused for at least 2 years.

Jetskier

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi Trail Goer,

Thank you for your factual comments. I have personally talked to the owner of the New England Southern Railroad multiple times. I can tell you emphatically that he has no intent to discontinue freight service along his northern corridor (Concord to Lincoln).

You are correct that it is typically the rail carrier that owns the right of way that files for discontinuance. In this case, the taking was by the state and both the Hobo Railroad and New England Southern Railroad have licenses with the state. New England Southern is licensed with STB as a common carrier...so they also have a federal license to operate. The historical rule has been that a rail line is not formally abandoned unless it has been unused for at least 2 years.

Jetskier

Nonetheless, rails can be extended to other recreation, like "rail-biking", developed in 1909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viSJ...Q&index=2&t=0s

[jetskier]

This point is that this rail line is not abandoned. Note that abandonment is a formal process that relinquishes railroad use of the rail line.

[boat_guy64]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

Good points...Thanks.

[jetskier]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...21b177816.html

[Woodsy]

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I do like the premise of the WOW trail... and they did a nice job on the other sections of the trail. However, they need to co-exist with the railroad just like in the other trail sections. If it costs more $$$ to build, so what? Deal with it.

I get the Southdown (and other Property owners) objections, but its a State owned ROW... that already becomes a public thoroughfare from Dec 15th thru spring. I think they both need to come to the table, and make a deal both side can live with. A pretty post & beam fence like the other sections would not look bad. Rerouting the trail off of state owned property is silly, especially if its done just because some wealthy private community decides to go NIMBY...

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I do like the premise of the WOW trail... and they did a nice job on the other sections of the trail. However, they need to co-exist with the railroad just like in the other trail sections. If it costs more $$$ to build, so what? Deal with it.

I get the Southdown (and other Property owners) objections, but its a State owned ROW... that already becomes a public thoroughfare from Dec 15th thru spring. I think they both need to come to the table, and make a deal both side can live with. A pretty post & beam fence like the other sections would not look bad. Rerouting the trail off of state owned property is silly, especially if its done just because some wealthy private community decides to go NIMBY...

Woodsy

It looks even worse considering the study was supposed to be paid for by donations that the WOW trail was supposed to raise. I guess the voters in the city had no say in whether or not the city should spend that kind of tax payer money. Had this spending gone before the voters, I bet it would've been defeated.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

It looks even worse considering the study was supposed to be paid for by donations that the WOW trail was supposed to raise. I guess the voters in the city had no say in whether or not the city should spend that kind of tax payer money. Had this spending gone before the voters, I bet it would've been defeated.

I'm sure the city does not need voter approval for a 40k expenditure probably taken out of the general fund

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I'm sure the city does not need voter approval for a 40k expenditure probably taken out of the general fund

Spending money on land they don't own and have no control over. It must give those that give a damn, a nice warm fuzzy feeling knowing the city just wasted 40k at the drop of a hat.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Spending money on land they don't own and have no control over. It must give those that give a damn, a nice warm fuzzy feeling knowing the city just wasted 40k at the drop of a hat.

I agree. No matter what side of the "fence" you are on the WOW Trail Organizers should have paid the bill

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I agree. No matter what side of the "fence" you are on the WOW Trail Organizers should have paid the bill

Note that this was originally going to be $10k paid by the WOW Organization...when it was approved by the Laconia Council it turned into a city expenditure not to exceed $50k. This is at the same time that the city is cutting back on other expenditures such as Milfoil control.

Jetskier

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Note that this was originally going to be $10k paid by the WOW Organization...when it was approved by the Laconia Council it turned into a city expenditure not to exceed $50k. This is at the same time that the city is cutting back on other expenditures such as Milfoil control.

Jetskier

WOW (pun intended) fiscal irresponsibility at its best!!!!!

[Major]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I love the idea of extending the runway to put Patrick's out of business! Just so long as the liquor store is unaffected!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...21b177816.html

I just do not understand why it must be one or the other. They can easily coexist with certain requirements being set if everyone gets on the same page but that unfortunately is unlikely.