Bahre Property Sold

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

“Absconded by the rich”? Seriously?

Yeah, lack of timing = questionable word choice. Replace with "swallowed by." Or is it that you're cool with awesome properties that provide priceless experiences to hundreds becoming singular estates? I get that it can happen, but I'll lament it forever. The best thing the US government ever did was create the national park system.

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[tis]

Local property taxes made the camps close not the "rich" who "absconded" the land. Yes, I know they could probably make more selling the valuable properties than they could keeping the camps open, but I still think a lot of them would still be here if it wasn't for the taxes. You notice most of the camps that are open today are non profits so they don't have to pay taxes.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by tis

Local property taxes made the camps close not the "rich" who "absconded" the land. Yes, I know they could probably make more selling the valuable properties than they could keeping the camps open, but I still think a lot of them would still be here if it wasn't for the taxes. You notice most of the camps that are open today are non profits so they don't have to pay taxes.

Well, sort of. Keep in mind that for profit camps have to compete against non profit camps, in the same way that for profit health clubs have to compete against the YMCA. Even before you get to taxes, the need for a profit margin and return on investment make this pretty much impossible when other factors are similar.

[Descant]

"privately owned" camps were never big money makers. People ran them in part because they want ed to give an experience to children, and yes, they could live on the lake and make a little money. Then go back to their teaching job in September.
Fifty years later, you die (or move to AZ) and you have no next generation that wants to run a camp. There's a lot of land and a lot of deferred maintenance and costs are going up. Your kids see the land value and the dollar signs. Sell. Similar to what happened to family run motels that were condominiumized in the eighties. Taxes, land values, costs to upgrade and no interest in continuing the family business all came together at once. Remember old camps? Big dining hall, lodge, common rest room facilities? Cabins without sprinklers, inadequate exits for sleeping quarters. Now you have to put sprinklers in all these buildings, depending on the town, I guess. That means laying new pressure water lines, new septics, maybe ADA facilities. It's a long list. Taxes, yes, but so much more.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Descant

"privately owned" camps were never big money makers. People ran them in part because they want ed to give an experience to children, and yes, they could live on the lake and make a little money. Then go back to their teaching job in September.

Fifty years later, you die (or move to AZ) and you have no next generation that wants to run a camp. There's a lot of land and a lot of deferred maintenance and costs are going up. Your kids see the land value and the dollar signs. Sell. Similar to what happened to family run motels that were condominiumized in the eighties. Taxes, land values, costs to upgrade and no interest in continuing the family business all came together at once. Remember old camps? Big dining hall, lodge, common rest room facilities? Cabins without sprinklers, inadequate exits for sleeping quarters. Now you have to put sprinklers in all these buildings, depending on the town, I guess. That means laying new pressure water lines, new septics, maybe ADA facilities. It's a long list. Taxes, yes, but so much more.

You hit it out of the park. Most of these older camps were run as something to fill the summertime. Profit wasn’t a primary motive. Unfortunately, when family doesn’t want/can’t afford to continue with something like this there aren’t a lot of options other than to sell the land. When you think about it, kind of sad commentary on where things have gone.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

...kind of sad commentary on where things have gone.Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Exactly my point.

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[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yeah, lack of timing = questionable word choice. Replace with "swallowed by." Or is it that you're cool with awesome properties that provide priceless experiences to hundreds becoming singular estates? I get that it can happen, but I'll lament it forever. The best thing the US government ever did was create the national park system.

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The State and Town of Alton had the same opportunity to buy this property as everyone else did. It was sold on the free market, and purchased by someone who could afford it, fair and square. As much as it’s the politically correct “flavor of the day” to think otherwise, working hard, earning money and becoming wealthy is still not a crime. Thank God for capitalism! There are still plenty of state parks and other public access points for everyone to enjoy.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

As much as it’s the politically correct “flavor of the day” to think otherwise, working hard, earning money and becoming wealthy is still not a crime. Thank God for capitalism! .

Indeed.

A corollary to "Live free or die" has to be "let the laws of supply and demand operate without undo interference."

Is this a great country, or what?

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

The State and Town of Alton had the same opportunity to buy this property as everyone else did. It was sold on the free market, and purchased by someone who could afford it, fair and square. As much as it’s the politically correct “flavor of the day” to think otherwise, working hard, earning money and becoming wealthy is still not a crime. Thank God for capitalism! There are still plenty of state parks and other public access points for everyone to enjoy.

I believe that the Town of Alton could of purchased the camp for a dollar but decided against it for some reason.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

I believe that the Town of Alton could of purchased the camp for a dollar but decided against it for some reason.

Oh and when was that? Was there a rejected warrant article? Some factual information would be appreciated.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

I believe that the Town of Alton could of purchased the camp for a dollar but decided against it for some reason.

My guess is that they didn't want to take a valuable tax producing property off of the tax roles....

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yeah, lack of timing = questionable word choice. Replace with "swallowed by." Or is it that you're cool with awesome properties that provide priceless experiences to hundreds becoming singular estates? I get that it can happen, but I'll lament it forever. The best thing the US government ever did was create the national park system.

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Well if you are concerned with "priceless experiences to hundreds" look no further than the Speedway in Loudon built by the man himself, Bob Bahre.

So if one were to compare the numbers and the people enjoying it, his investments have been a huge net positive, providing enjoyment to hundreds of thousands. Even though he sold the track, and attendance is down, many more people enjoy the track than ever would have gone to camp or a park in Alton.

Furthermore, numerous people enjoy shopping at the Hannaford in Alton that was also built by Bob Bahre. With grocery shopping so much closer, and more affordable for many, those people will have more money and time left over to enjoy the lake.

There are many other examples (One: He bought Oxford Plains Speedway in Maine in 1964) but after providing so much for so many I am glad that Bob Bahre could afford to build the property of his dreams for himself and his family.

[jazzman]

So oddly it was sold to a guy who seems to own a construction business for 5.6M. I wonder if a flip is in the works? I assume the place has been maintained over the years. There are always lights on and the landscape team spends all day Thursday there

I'd think the town of Alton will have to change the valuation to something close to the sales price given it took 4 years to sell. That will lose the town ~60k a year in taxes and I bet the other property will sell for even less.

I wonder how many dollars per night it cost Mr Bahre to stay there given the huge loss he must have taken? In the 6 years I've lived across from it there has almost never been signs of life there other than Nascar weekends and party he'd have every August.

[tis]

I don't think Bahre built the speedway. It was already there. I also heard, at least at the beginning, the taxes were a LOT more than 60 a year. Of course that could have been for all the houses and land. And maybe there were reduced as he fought for it.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by tis

... the taxes were a LOT more than 60 a year.

And as everyone knows, starting with tax year 2018, due in April 2019, with the new tax law that was passed in December 2017, only the first $10,000 of state and local taxes are deductible from your federal income tax. A big change ....... and first real estate change like this since the 1913 birth of our federal income tax.

So, that will maybe lower the selling price for high priced homes? Wait and see?

Looks like the new owner is a home building company, so's could be it will sub-divide the open land, squeeze in another house or two, and not really care about the high property taxes since everything including the big house will get sold? As long as it still got that looooong vieeeeeeew! How's that for a plan, and then name them Long View I, II, & III.

If the town approves they could sub-divide and build condo town houses on the land out back, with eight condo town houses and a shared dock?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

And as everyone knows, starting with tax year 2018, due in April 2019, with the new tax law that was passed in December 2017, only the first $10,000 of state and local taxes are deductible from your federal income tax. A big change ....... and first real estate change like this since the 1913 birth of our federal income tax.

So, that will maybe lower the selling price for high priced homes? Wait and see?

Looks like the new owner is a home building company, so's could be it will sub-divide the open land, squeeze in another house or two, and not really care about the high property taxes since everything including the big house will get sold? As long as it still got that looooong vieeeeeeew! How's that for a plan, and then name them Long View I, II, & III.

If the town approves they could sub-divide and build condo town houses on the land out back, with eight condo town houses and a shared dock?

So we have a developer buying the property and possibly building multiple units that will surely bring in more than 10K tax revenue each but they won't sell because you can't write off more than that on you taxes anymore? I guess this developer is taking on a terrible risk. You should school him on this new law.

[fatlazyless]

That's all just conjecture about what will get built here, so just have to wait.

Off the top of my head, just guessing here that for the Town of Alton, a property has to be valued at about $750,000 to receive an annual property tax bill total of $10,001. or more. Probably, condo town houses would be way below $750,000. but maybe not?

You never know but maybe the big mansion house gets re-constructed inside into three or four smaller condo units ….. is possible? And they could call it The Big House at Long View along with a row of townhouses out back, in what is now a large grass lawn area with some super nice waterfront.


Working it with a construction loan from a friendly banker for 12%/yr?


To see it up close, go to a map for 'clay point, Alton NH' and snoop around with Google Earth.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

That's all just conjecture about what will get built here, so just have to wait.

Off the top of my head, just guessing here that for the Town of Alton, a property has to be valued at about $750,000 to receive an annual property tax bill total of $10,001. or more. Probably, condo town houses would be way below $750,000. but maybe not?

You never know but maybe the big mansion house gets re-constructed inside into three or four smaller condo units ….. is possible? And they could call it The Big House at Long View along with a row of townhouses out back, in what is now a large grass lawn area with some super nice waterfront.


Working it with a construction loan from a friendly banker for 12%/yr?


To see it up close, go to a map for 'clay point, Alton NH' and snoop around with Google Earth.

These are second or third homes for most people so I'm sure all their property tax bills combined would exceed 10K. So I doubt this 10K write off limit would have any affect on prices at all. Rich people want what they want because they have the means.
Besides, President Trump has given the rich other tax breaks that will more than offset that deduction cap.

[tis]

From the Laconia Sun:

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While the property is assessed for tax purposes at $23,109,500, it is being offered for sale for $17.8 million — $31.2 million less than the $49 million asking price when it first went on the market four years ago. Two years ago the Bahres cut the asking price in half to $25.8 million.

Based on the current Alton tax rate of $12.86 per $1,000 of assessed value, the Bahres paid $309,280.17 in property tax. On July 30, the town of Alton reduced the assessment on the property by $936,400 and refunded the Bahres $12,092 they had paid on their 2017 tax bill.

I told you it was a LOT more than 60,000 a year! Now do you believe me?
I remember being told a long time ago he paid a thousand dollars a day in just property taxes to live there.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

From the Laconia Sun:

advertisement
While the property is assessed for tax purposes at $23,109,500, it is being offered for sale for $17.8 million — $31.2 million less than the $49 million asking price when it first went on the market four years ago. Two years ago the Bahres cut the asking price in half to $25.8 million.

Based on the current Alton tax rate of $12.86 per $1,000 of assessed value, the Bahres paid $309,280.17 in property tax. On July 30, the town of Alton reduced the assessment on the property by $936,400 and refunded the Bahres $12,092 they had paid on their 2017 tax bill.

I told you it was a LOT more than 60,000 a year! Now do you believe me?
I remember being told a long time ago he paid a thousand dollars a day in just property taxes to live there.

Most people would be happy to make the amount of money he paid in taxes on a yearly basis.

[codeman671]

Someone absolutely stole it for $5.6mil. Look at some of the Governors Island properties and what they are going for. Bahre must have really wanted out of the place. I am sure he took a HUGE hit on it.

[Descant]

I doubt Mr. Bahre files only a Form 1040 and a few supplement pages. Trying to make his taxes relate to those filing a 1040-EZ just won't work. Skim through the assessment data base for lakeside properties and see how many are owned by trusts of various types, LLC's, other corporation types and partnerships. Many, many. Must be some reason, not all part of the attorney- CPA-CFP relief program.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Descant

I doubt Mr. Bahre files only a Form 1040 and a few supplement pages. Trying to make his taxes relate to those filing a 1040-EZ just won't work. Skim through the assessment data base for lakeside properties and see how many are owned by trusts of various types, LLC's, other corporation types and partnerships. Many, many. Must be some reason, not all part of the attorney- CPA-CFP relief program.

I own my home in an LLC for many reasons including making the transfer much easier to my children after I pass and for tax purposes

[jazzman]

I imagine any plans to develop the property beyond it's current use would be very hotly contested. The neighbors (including the virtual neighbors just across the channel on Barndoor Island) already put up with years of noise when the original property was built. The town later denied the request to build a large building for Mr Baher's auto collection. I don't know if the current zoning would allow condos in the location or not. Hopefully the new owner just wants to live large on the lake or maybe rent it out as a corporate retreat

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Descant

I doubt Mr. Bahre files only a Form 1040 and a few supplement pages. Trying to make his taxes relate to those filing a 1040-EZ just won't work. Skim through the assessment data base for lakeside properties and see how many are owned by trusts of various types, LLC's, other corporation types and partnerships. Many, many. Must be some reason, not all part of the attorney- CPA-CFP relief program.

In the simplest of terms...

These are legal maneuvers people are taking to legally protect an asset such as a piece of property or any asset of significant value. It does NOT free them from tax liability or make the taxes being paid any less. The trust, LLC, LLP, corporation or owner in whatever legal format it is defined must pay the same taxes as everyone else at the same rate. In fact most trusts are established simply for the purposes of augmenting a will to pass assets to beneficiaries avoiding any kind of probate or lawsuit claiming a right of ownership outside what is defined within the trust itself. Nothing nefarious here, in fact in today's overly litigious society it's almost a necessity.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

In the simplest of terms...

These are legal maneuvers people are taking to legally protect an asset such as a piece of property or any asset of significant value. It does NOT free them from tax liability or make the taxes being paid any less. The trust, LLC, LLP, corporation or owner in whatever legal format it is defined must pay the same taxes as everyone else at the same rate. In fact most trusts are established simply for the purposes of augmenting a will to pass assets to beneficiaries avoiding any kind of probate or lawsuit claiming a right of ownership outside what is defined within the trust itself. Nothing nefarious here, in fact in today's overly litigious society it's almost a necessity.

I agree that the taxes must be paid. It's been a long time since I took accounting 101, but I was thinking more of business expenses that are deductible. Doesn't the 10;000 cap apply to individuals, not businesses? If I am a partner and we share the tax so my share is applied to my $10,000 cap, not to that of the partnership if there is a cap for them? I believe I could also transfer the property to my charitable foundation as long as the use falls within those legal parameters. When you reach this level, don't you have teams of CPA's and attorneys, not just some guy who does my taxes?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

In the simplest of terms...

These are legal maneuvers people are taking to legally protect an asset such as a piece of property or any asset of significant value. It does NOT free them from tax liability or make the taxes being paid any less. The trust, LLC, LLP, corporation or owner in whatever legal format it is defined must pay the same taxes as everyone else at the same rate. In fact most trusts are established simply for the purposes of augmenting a will to pass assets to beneficiaries avoiding any kind of probate or lawsuit claiming a right of ownership outside what is defined within the trust itself. Nothing nefarious here, in fact in today's overly litigious society it's almost a necessity.

Not exactly, Corp and LLC tax rates have been lowered so if you're in a high tax bracket then you would pay less in Federal income taxes. The property tax bill would be the same but you can lower your overall tax liability with a Corp or LLC.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Not exactly, Corp and LLC tax rates have been lowered so if you're in a high tax bracket then you would pay less in Federal income taxes. The property tax bill would be the same but you can lower your overall tax liability with a Corp or LLC.

True but you are mixing property taxes with income taxes which are in no way related in the context of how much any entity pays specifically in property taxes.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

True but you are mixing property taxes with income taxes which are in no way related in the context of how much any entity pays specifically in property taxes.

I understand that but the reason people use LLC's and Corps is for liability and overall tax burden purposes, esp now that Trump changed the tax laws. As I was reading this thread I think overall tax burden as well as the 10K tax deduction was being brought up.

[Sleezstak]

I find reading this post taxing.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Sleezstak

I find reading this post taxing.

Property taxing or income taxing?

[Descant]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

True but you are mixing property taxes with income taxes which are in no way related in the context of how much any entity pays specifically in property taxes.

I saw the relationship in how to get a better deal i.e. where the $10K cap fits into your plans or if you can avoid it on your income tax, whether it be personal or business. Looks like the answer is, there are some options.

[fatlazyless]

You know ..... without doing much of anything in the way of re-construction .... this totally huge home has seven large bedrooms and a lot of bathrooms and a very nice kitchen with a huge refrigerator.

Why not turn it into a vacation rooming house, with linens, towels, an old canoe and kayak or two, and kitchen privileges included.

Attach a black marker pen on a 36" string to the edge of the frig, and let residents know they should label what is theirs; like milk, bagels, ice cream, yogurt, Marie Callender frozen $2.50 turkey pot pies .... to keep it a happy rooming house ..... the LONG VIEW Rooming House ...... come visit the famous Lake Winnipesaukee rooming house with the long view ..... for a single day, two days, three days, whatever, or a 7-day stretch, ..... as available.

And, what's the price per day, to stay overnight at Long View? Have to work that pricing out, over time, through trial and error ...... and just go with the flow? But, keep the price low to keep the occupancy high, and limit the stay to seven days per year, or something???

[tis]

I don't know if it shows in the pictures, but I thought it already had a second kitchen. So you don't have to share if it does. No markers, no strings.

[tis]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

And as everyone knows, starting with tax year 2018, due in April 2019, with the new tax law that was passed in December 2017, only the first $10,000 of state and local taxes are deductible from your federal income tax. A big change ....... and first real estate change like this since the 1913 birth of our federal income tax.

So, that will maybe lower the selling price for high priced homes? Wait and see?

Looks like the new owner is a home building company, so's could be it will sub-divide the open land, squeeze in another house or two, and not really care about the high property taxes since everything including the big house will get sold? As long as it still got that looooong vieeeeeeew! How's that for a plan, and then name them Long View I, II, & III.

If the town approves they could sub-divide and build condo town houses on the land out back, with eight condo town houses and a shared dock?

How did you know the new owner is a home building company?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by tis

I don't think Bahre built the speedway. It was already there. I also heard, at least at the beginning, the taxes were a LOT more than 60 a year. Of course that could have been for all the houses and land. And maybe there were reduced as he fought for it.

Yes, it was.

It was originally known as Bryar Motorsports Park. I'd raced there twice before Bahre transformed it—then twice-again afterwards.

The road course is tight and there are highly desired "elevation-changes". One fast turn has the narrow end of a "Jersey Barrier" sticking out! To reduce the unnerving effect on drivers, the exposed end was painted black.

There were minor defects in the oval to which were accredited tragic crashes at high speeds; fortunately, the road course used only the "good" part of the oval.

There are probably other car clubs (other than BMW) that teach high speed car control—including a "Street Survival" Course—designed especially for teens. You can bring your Jeep.

https://www.facebook.com/events/175272093197429

[TiltonBB]

It was Bryar Motorsport Park, built in the early 60's by Keith Bryar the owner of Belknap Tire in Laconia.

In the late 80's both the courses and the facilities had deteriorated due to a lack of capital investment. As a result, many series had dropped Bryar from their schedule, and motorcycles were the only vehicles still using the road course.

In 1989, Bob Bahre – who had previously run Oxford Plains Speedway for 23 years – bought the facility and immediately announced plans to transform it into what would become New Hampshire Motor Speedway.

[fatlazyless]

In 2008, Bruton Smith bought the speedway from Bob Bahre for $340,000,000., and starting in September, 2019, the September NASCAR event formerly held in Loudon NH will be held in Las Vegas, Nevada .... at another race track owned by Bruton .......which is one big reason why Mr Smith paid so danged much.

So, what do you think, for making money, what's a better spot for a big fancy-dancy NASCAR race ...... Loudon or Las Vegas ....... budda-boom ..... budda-bing ...... budda-boom ....... will the drivers puh-lease start their engines ......... thank-you! ..... and, what happens in Vegas ..... stays in Las Vegas.

[nj2nh]

Originally Posted by tis

I don't think Bahre built the speedway. It was already there. I also heard, at least at the beginning, the taxes were a LOT more than 60 a year. Of course that could have been for all the houses and land. And maybe there were reduced as he fought for it.

According to Zillow, taxes were over $130,000 in 2018.


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[Slickcraft]

I wonder how big a boat can be docked there

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...ad.php?t=24345

[fatlazyless]

.... big enough for the mail boat.

Back in 1964 .... only 55 fast years ago ..... Big Jeff would say something like: Ok .... let's get these canoes put away .... we need the outer dock clear for the mail boat.

That outer dock has deep water there, and the Uncle Sam was something like 70' long.