Results!!!!! No Wake

[Tir Na Nog]

I just got back to the Boston after a weekend up at the Lake. We did get out on the boat both Saturday and Sunday. We boat out of Wolfeboro. I saw very few boats following the No Wake rule. Nor did it seem to me that anyone at Goodhue hawkins was advising boaters of the rule. Saturday was a little windy and there were not as many boats out when we were at around 4, but even in Wolfeboro Bay the boats were popping right up to speed and pushing a wake as soon as they got away from the docks. On Sunday, there were may more boats out and even less compliance. We motored over to Alton Bay and as we came to the area of Echo Point (where I think it would be tough to keep 600 feet from either shore) we saw all of these boats coming out at headway speed and I thought at least there the word was out. A little further in the Bay I saw why. There was a MP boat cruising out. CLearly noncompliance was not just a lack of knowledge. I saw one boat passing all the others at headway speed, probably not even following the 150 foot rule as to other boats, and he immediately powered down when he saw the MP boat, which I had hoped would be pulling him over. There seems very limited enforcement of the rules. Has NH ever considered something similar to the Coast Guard Auxillary to help out on the lake? Auxillary volunteers have been very helpful to the Coasties with little expense as they are volunteers.

[Dave R]

Perhaps a silly question, but if folks are worried about their docks taking such a beating, why not just pull them out until the water goes down?

[Island Life]

I keep my boat at Fay's and I didn't see any signs announcing the no-wake rule. If I hadn't read about it here, I wouldn't have known. Saw MP several times but they weren't enforcing the no-wake rule.

Three or four sections of different docks have washed up on my beach. Two of them look to be of standard size and I thought it might be a good idea to drop them off someplace where they can be claimed by people looking to replace the sections they've lost. Any ideas about where I could leave them?

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Perhaps a silly question, but if folks are worried about their docks taking such a beating, why not just pull them out until the water goes down?

A great many docks on the lake are permanent, installed either on pilings driven down into the lake bottom or on cribs which contain large rocks to secure the dock to the lake bottom. Only "seasonal" docks can be raised up out of the water.

[Woodsy]

Nobody seems to get that there are competing interests...

Bottom line is that 600' was a reasonable compromise. As I predicted, nobody is really happy with it. I really don't think that the word got out as well as it should have. That might have been somewhat intentional. We do need the tourist $$$ to help pay for all of the flood damage.

I did witness an MP boat stationed in Paugus Bay for most of the day Sat & Sun. He was pretty busy "informing" people of the NWZ. Paugus was pretty calm...

Woodsy

[Winni]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bottom line is that 600' was a reasonable compromise.

Fact: This was not a compromise. Compromise was not possible in this issue. 150 ft., 600 ft., 800 ft...it doesn't matter. $ won; they were, in the end, all that mattered.

Physics 101: You put your finger in a bowl of water; stir it around, and the "waves" will hit the edge of the bowl. You DO NOT put your finger in the water; you DO NOT stir it around, and the waves (except those produced by nature itself) will NOT hit the edge of the bowl. (p.s. It doesn't matter where you put your finger in the bowl.)

You might want to reread your tag line.

[Kevin C]

Thanks Mee-n-Mac for the websites and your reply.....now bookmarked for future reference.

[Winni]

Have any of you noticed not one word has been said in these forums, at least that I've seen, about what this weekend is really about? It is especially important today, May 30th, the original "Memorial Day". We are all so busy arguing and protecting our own "beliefs" that no one has bothered to say a word about what we should really be worrying about...

...that no more soldiers must die or be injured. I lived through the Vietnam era and I lost people I went to school with. I watch the news every day. We are all missing the most important point here:

Thank you, with the greatest pride and sincerity, to all who are currently in uniform serving us and to those who have passed and served us.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by DRH

A great many docks on the lake are permanent, installed either on pilings driven down into the lake bottom or on cribs which contain large rocks to secure the dock to the lake bottom. Only "seasonal" docks can be raised up out of the water.

I'd think any dock built to survive ice would have an easy time with water and would not be in danger. If not, perhaps a re-design is in order. I doubt this'll be the last flood.

This a great opportunity for folks to fix weaknesses in design and implementation. Seems to me, that would a better way to spend time than fretting about wakes. If folks really care about maintaining their property in it's current state, they should do what is necessary to prevent it from changing.

[Winni]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I'd think any dock built to survive ice would have an easy time with water and would not be in danger. If not, perhaps a re-design is in order. I doubt this'll be the last flood.

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...

[LIforrelaxin]

MJP, very good post....you are right on with your comments.......

Now I am new here and trying not to blast people.....and of course at the momment can't even tell you who made the comment....but someone in this thread, posed the question of why not just take a seasonal dock out. Well for those that have never put a dock in or out let me just say....it is not that easy. I would have loved to have taken my dock out....as welll as my nieghbors (my aunt and uncles) but....I can't do it be myself....I have to get help to help me, which is usually not a problem....but to ask someone to give up thier weekend to help me.....and then be left to ask the same person to help me a few weeks later....come on...

For a situation that happens so seldom....people should just grow up....and realize that once or twice in thier lives they may not be able to what they want when they want..............

[Kevin C]

I have stayed off the lake for the last couple of weekends (which has been killing me as I have yet to be out on the lake this year) in an effort to respect the lakefront owners situation as well as the environmental impact, not to mention the floating debris around the lake. I found the following statement from Bizer about the lake:

The flow of water leaving Lake Winnipesaukee at the Lakeport Dam is measured in cubic feet per second. At near full blast, the damn can release 1.24 billion gallons of water per day, or about enough water to lower the level of Lake Winnipesaukee just one inch. -Bizer

Can anyone tell me what the status of the outflow is presently and what the estimate is for the lake to be at an acceptable level so that normal boating operations can resume? I know that the outflow from the lake has to be respectful of those downstream.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Kevin C

{snip} Can anyone tell me what the status of the outflow is presently and what the estimate is for the lake to be at an acceptable level so that normal boating operations can resume? I know that the outflow from the lake has to be respectful of those downstream.

The discharge rate for the Lakeport dam can be found here
http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/...E=Lakeport+Dam

while the hour by hour lake level can be found here
http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/...+Winnipesaukee

As to when the lake is low enough to be "normal" ... good question and I was just wondering that myself. Looking at Bizer's graph I'd say that when the lake drops about another 6" it would be in the range of normal levels. Kinda hard to argue for NWS at that point. Personally I'll be very happy when it drops 6". Anyone know what the level was when the NWZ was lifted in '98 ? I guess I could look it up ....

On another note LG had suggested an automatic NWZ anytime the lake was above 505' so perhaps another 0.2' might be sufficient ?


EDIT : ooops that's a 1/2 ft marking on Bizer's chart so make that 6" not 12".

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

MJP, very good post....you are right on with your comments.......

Now I am new here and trying not to blast people.....and of course at the momment can't even tell you who made the comment....but someone in this thread, posed the question of why not just take a seasonal dock out. Well for those that have never put a dock in or out let me just say....it is not that easy. I would have loved to have taken my dock out....as welll as my nieghbors (my aunt and uncles) but....I can't do it be myself....I have to get help to help me, which is usually not a problem....but to ask someone to give up thier weekend to help me.....and then be left to ask the same person to help me a few weeks later....come on...

For a situation that happens so seldom....people should just grow up....and realize that once or twice in thier lives they may not be able to what they want when they want..............

That was me that suggested taking the dock out. Just trying to be realistic. If you want to watch your property get wrecked for three days instead of doing something about it, it's certainly your prerogative. I honestly hope the damage was minimal. I didn't cause any of it, I wasn't there.

[Misty Blue]

Here is a trick that I use.

When the Lake is high and waves threaten the decking on my dock I pull the canoe on to the dock and fill it and some stragically placed trash cans with water. They hold the dock down and are easy to empty when the Lake returns to normal.

I do this for my out of state neighbors as well, except for the guy four doors down who doesn't like my dog. He crossed a line!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by MJP

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...

You can roll your eyes at me all you want but if you continually sustain damage to you dock you really ought to consider making it removable. Same for your neighbor unless they have $5000 to throw away every few years. I spend a lot of time on another lake and every year we put the dock in and take the dock out. The dock has survived for 18 years and has plenty of life left. I doubt the 24'x6' main dock plus the 4'x8' extension cost more than $3000 to build, including the wheels on which it rolls (which make it easily removeable). It can be put in and taken out by one person and uses nothing but "off the shelf" hardware that's widely available around the lake. It's also modular and can be expanded in size with no added difficulty. I am not criticizing or scolding you, just trying to offer a suggestion.

I was not out there tubing in the debris or making wakes at your place this weekend.

If you are expecting people to behave themselves out of the goodness in their hearts, you are bound for disappointment. Most people are not very considerate. You can complain about people making wakes on this forum and call the MP forever and I can assure you the wakes and erosion will continue as always. Instead of complaining, I suggest doing something to help yourself. You are blessed with the luxury of living in one of the most beuatiful places on this earth, yet you come here looking for sympathy when you have to deal with some of the occasional downsides of lake living. I'll save my sympathy for folks that dealt with "real" flooding issues; folks in NH/MA whose homes were destroyed by the recent rains, folks who survived the recent tsunami, or the Hurricane survivors down south.

[Winni]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I was not out there tubing in the debris or making wakes at your place this weekend.

If you are expecting people to behave themselves out of the goodness in their hearts, you are bound for disappointment. Most people are not very considerate.
I'll save my sympathy

So, what is the point here?

I never accused you of tubing in front of my house...where did you get that idea from? Wow! Talk about mis-reading!

How naive do you think I am? I am so discouraged about people having "goodness in their hearts" I could throw up. Just look at what happened with HB162! But, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to get people to understand the harm they do to nature and others. To stop would be to give up, and I'm betting you already figured out I'm not one to give up easily.

I never once asked for your or anyone else's sympathy. I asked for your, and everyone else's understanding and consideration of the situation and said over and over it was not just about personal property, but more importantly about public safety and the preservation of wildlife and the natural surroundings...or did you just conveniently choose to skip that part in my postings?

Joke's on you: I do not have a permanent dock! In fact, I never said in any of my postings that I did. My neighbors, who I was also concerned about, do. In fact, all we have and all that was bouncing around, was the deck at the water's edge we connect our removable dock to. We can't remove the extension; that part is permanent and could be easily replaced, though it could have been a hazard in the water had it let loose. What saved it was that our removable dock sections and all the metal poles it uses were piled on top of that section. The waves were so heavy, however, even with all that weight...and it is A LOT...the extension, which is well set in rocks and land, was still bouncing around.

Put your "sympathy" wherever you want. That doesn't make hurting others, including wildlife and people who aren't smart enough to stay off the Lake when there is an unusual situation like this, right. Who cares where you put your sympathy? I do care where you put your brain, however.

I'm so sick of this. I don't want to keep going around this. If people chose to be naive about reality then just go ahead and be so; I'm not foolish enough to think I can change everyone, but if I can just get even one person to stop and take a second look at the harm they might be doing at any time they choose to use the Lake, then I've accomplished something. Whether others judge my writing to be worthwhile or not, I really don't care. If I'm negatively judged, so what; getting kudos is not why I write. If you actually care about the world, then, well, "Thanks". If you don't, just remember that old phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Furthermore, if you do care about New Hampshire, then do something; don't just talk. I suggest joining the Forest Society, the NH Lakes Association, WinnFABS, anything that actually makes a difference. Yes, I do feel sorry for the hurricane victims and people all over the world who suffer, but I live here, so I'm trying to do something about here.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by MJP

So, what is the point here?

I never accused you of tubing in front of my house...where did you get that idea from? Wow! Talk about mis-reading!

How naive do you think I am? I am so discouraged about people having "goodness in their hearts" I could throw up. Just look at what happened with HB162! But, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to get people to understand the harm they do to nature and others. To stop would be to give up, and I'm betting you already figured out I'm not one to give up easily.

I never once asked for your or anyone else's sympathy. I asked for your, and everyone else's understanding and consideration of the situation and said over and over it was not just about personal property, but more importantly about public safety and the preservation of wildlife and the natural surroundings...or did you just conveniently choose to skip that part in my postings?

Joke's on you: I do not have a permanent dock! In fact, I never said in any of my postings that I did. My neighbors, who I was also concerned about, do. In fact, all we have and all that was bouncing around, was the deck at the water's edge we connect our removable dock to. We can't remove the extension; that part is permanent and could be easily replaced, though it could have been a hazard in the water had it let loose. What saved it was that our removable dock sections and all the metal poles it uses were piled on top of that section. The waves were so heavy, however, even with all that weight...and it is A LOT...the extension, which is well set in rocks and land, was still bouncing around.

Put your "sympathy" wherever you want. That doesn't make hurting others, including wildlife and people who aren't smart enough to stay off the Lake when there is an unusual situation like this, right. Who cares where you put your sympathy? I do care where you put your brain, however.

I'm so sick of this. I don't want to keep going around this. If people chose to be naive about reality then just go ahead and be so; I'm not foolish enough to think I can change everyone, but if I can just get even one person to stop and take a second look at the harm they might be doing at any time they choose to use the Lake, then I've accomplished something. Whether others judge my writing to be worthwhile or not, I really don't care. If I'm negatively judged, so what; getting kudos is not why I write. If you actually care about the world, then, well, "Thanks". If you don't, just remember that old phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Furthermore, if you do care about New Hampshire, then do something; don't just talk. I suggest joining the Forest Society, the NH Lakes Association, WinnFABS, anything that actually makes a difference. Yes, I do feel sorry for the hurricane victims and people all over the world who suffer, but I live here, so I'm trying to do something about here.

The sole point of my posts was to point out the absurdity of whining on the internet instead of protecting one's property. Posting on here about how inconsiderate people are, how greedy the politicians are, and how unresponsive the MP is, does absolutely nothing to help preserve anyone's property or the health of the lake. I THINK A LAKEWIDE NWZ is a good idea right now. But it did not happen so I'm trying to be realistic and offer a solution.

Tell me more about what you are trying to do here. I see lots of empty words and little action. As a lake front land owner, you have vastly more power to stop erosion than I do. What have you done?

Joke's on me huh? I don't think smashed up docks are funny. Maybe irresponsible, but not funny.

Perhaps you missed the news, WinnFABS actually failed to make a difference. HB162 did not pass, but I'm not really sure what that failed bill has to do with this discussion. As far as I know, there have been no high speed accidents during the flooding.

I never felt you were accusing me of making wakes or tubing in front of your house. Just pointing out that you need not condsider me the same type of person that would do that just because you disagree with my thoughts on what constitutes reasonable actions to take to prevent erosion. You have my understanding and consideration. I am not part of the problem.

Perhaps nothing can be done to help during this flood. For those that suffer damage now, I ask: What are your plans to prevent the same type of damage 7 or so years from now when the next flood happens? Whining 7 years from now will have the same effect then as it has now.

[KonaChick]

Dave R sorry but I think that's exactly what you were implying. Having our docks and land destroyed isn't an occassional "downside" to lake living. When you say that I think of the things that truly are an occassional downside to owning on the big lake...traffic coming up on Fridays, guests that stay too long, mice in the house, cleaning the beach up, ignorant boaters. Theses are all examples of the occassional downside we experience up at the lake. Having our docks destroyed, erosion of our beaches, wildlife nests on our property destroyed because of ignorant boaters who refuse to follow the law are more than a "downside", they are an outrage. We don't need your sympathy we need compliance of the law and some common sense both of which were in short supply this holiday weekend.

[Winni]

Thank you, KonaChick. As for DaveR, I am just giving up. He will never get it so it's not worth any more of my effort. Have a nice life, Dave, just leave the rest of us alone. Getting you to understand is a fruitless endeavor.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Dave R sorry but I think that's exactly what you were implying. Having our docks and land destroyed isn't an occassional "downside" to lake living. When you say that I think of the things that truly are an occassional downside to owning on the big lake...traffic coming up on Fridays, guests that stay too long, mice in the house, cleaning the beach up, ignorant boaters. Theses are all examples of the occassional downside we experience up at the lake. Having our docks destroyed, erosion of our beaches, wildlife nests on our property destroyed because of ignorant boaters who refuse to follow the law are more than a "downside", they are an outrage. We don't need your sympathy we need compliance of the law and some common sense both of which were in short supply this holiday weekend.

I think you may have taken a well-deserved sarcastic response to MJP as an attack on all land owners by me. It was not. Don't flatter yourself, you are not envied as much as you think.

Lets put my "occasional downside" comment back in perspective. The context in which it was written was thus: Compared to folks losing homes, loved ones, and lives to hurricanes, floods and tsunamis, your erosion and dock problems are indeed just an occasional downside of choosing to live next to water. I know it probably seems like the end of the world when your dock gets busted up, but it's nothing that cannot be repaired and things could be vastly worse. If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine.

If you truly cared about wildlife on the lake, you'd NEVER own a house on the lake. That land of yours was stolen from those poor furry little animals who can no longer call it home and are probably very, very sad every time they think about it. Especially the cute ones becuase somehow, I doubt snapping turtles feel sadness. A true nature lover would turn the place into a human-free animal sanctuary. Please, let us know how that turns out.

If in this context, you still think your situation is an "outrage", give FEMA a call. Maybe they will declare your property a distaster area and bail you out.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think you may have taken a well-deserved sarcastic response to MJP as an attack on all land owners by me. It was not. Don't flatter yourself, you are not envied as much as you think.

Lets put my "occasional downside" comment back in perspective. The context in which it was written was thus: Compared to folks losing homes, loved ones, and lives to hurricanes, floods and tsunamis, your erosion and dock problems are indeed just an occasional downside of choosing to live next to water. I know it probably seems like the end of the world when your dock gets busted up, but it's nothing that cannot be repaired and things could be vastly worse. If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine.

If you truly cared about wildlife on the lake, you'd NEVER own a house on the lake. That land of yours was stolen from those poor furry little animals who can no longer call it home and are probably very, very sad every time they think about it. Especially the cute ones becuase somehow, I doubt snapping turtles feel sadness. A true nature lover would turn the place into a human-free animal sanctuary. Please, let us know how that turns out.

If in this context, you still think your situation is an "outrage", give FEMA a call. Maybe they will declare your property a distaster area and bail you out.

Everytime you reply your true self shines through like a beacon.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Everytime you reply your true self shines through like a beacon.

Thank you! I do try.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...The sole point of my posts was to point out the absurdity of whining on the internet instead of protecting one's property..."

This site—and the lake's present messy 600' situation—was on television last night.

Think The Governor watches TV news?

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...There has to be a balance between the interests of the waterfront property owners, businesses, and the general public. Unfortunately you cannot please everyone..."

The state needs to add four more lanes to I-93: Even more businesses, property owners, and "general public" could arrive here, and no business would be allowed to have a lean year. We can even raise the lake level another foot or two every time business suffers a "bad winter". [/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine..."

My dock was rebuilt above 1984's high water. And, when my dock was rebuilt, the vast majority of boats were NOT being dragged to Winnipesaukee on 4-wheeled trailers.

(Or six wheels, for that matter).

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Thank you! I do try.

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jrc

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it.

Thanks, I'm pretty thick skinned, or maybe just ambivalent. My turn to be the scapegoat. All the erosion is my fault.

I'd be much less sarcastic about this subject if folks said something like: "I filled sand bags and made temporary dams to protect my property, but I was unable to avoid damage caused by wakes", instead of "I called the MP 20 times today, I joined WinnFABs, I complained on the Internet, and I STILL have erosion". Ugh, hello... do something besides picking up the phone, writing checks and typing. It's YOUR land, be a person of action; the world loves people of action.

Somehow, pointing this out makes me as (or perhaps more) evil than the folks actually causing the erosion.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Thanks, I'm pretty thick skinned, or maybe just ambivalent. My turn to be the scapegoat. All the erosion is my fault.

I'd be much less sarcastic about this subject if folks said something like: "I filled sand bags and made temporary dams to protect my property, but I was unable to avoid damage caused by wakes", instead of "I called the MP 20 times today, I joined WinnFABs, I complained on the Internet, and I STILL have erosion". Ugh, hello... do something besides picking up the phone, writing checks and typing. It's YOUR land, be a person of action; the world loves people of action.

Somehow, pointing this out makes me as (or perhaps more) evil than the folks actually causing the erosion.

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.

As a boater and being on the waterfront I've got a foot in "both houses" that seem to be emerging in this discussion. I think 600' is not enough distance to dimish wake size effectively* but to the extent that it may have kept people off the lake it did work somewhat. I think that the people with boats that throw large wakes should be more considerate and either leave them at the dock or do NWS wherever but I don't expect everyone to do that. Some people are just plain ignorant of their wakes, others ignorant of the effect of the lake level and still others just don't give a ... hmmm ... hoot. Given that realitity and the fact the Mother Nature doesn't abide by any of our rules I put the the barrels back on the dock, just like I did last fall. I have a neighbor a few docks down that watched me do this 2 weeks ago and did nothing. My dock is intact and his is demolished. And I'll add it was the constant pounding from the waves of last weeks storms that did it, not this weekends boat wakes, so we all need to get a little perspective here. Given last falls floods I can muster only mild sympathy for the landowners who didn't learn from that lesson and do something to protect their assets. People who put in their seasonal docks and didn't fasten down the decks (as GN mentions here) get no sympathy from me. They and the large wakers are both in the wrong.

*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

As a boater and being on the waterfront I've got a foot in "both houses" that seem to be emerging in this discussion. I think 600' is not enough distance to dimish wake size effectively* but to the extent that it may have kept people off the lake it did work somewhat. I think that the people with boats that throw large wakes should be more considerate and either leave them at the dock or do NWS wherever but I don't expect everyone to do that. Some people are just plain ignorant of their wakes, others ignorant of the effect of the lake level and still others just don't give a ... hmmm ... hoot. Given that realitity and the fact the Mother Nature doesn't abide by any of our rules I put the the barrels back on the dock, just like I did last fall. I have a neighbor a few docks down that watched me do this 2 weeks ago and did nothing. My dock is intact and his is demolished. And I'll add it was the constant pounding from the waves of last weeks storms that did it, not this weekends boat wakes, so we all need to get a little perspective here. Given last falls floods I can muster only mild sympathy for the landowners who didn't learn from that lesson and do something to protect their assets. People who put in their seasonal docks and didn't fasten down the decks (as GN mentions here) get no sympathy from me. They and the large wakers are both in the wrong.

*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on.

I'm in both camps also, I chose not to get my boat which was scheduled to be launched last Sunday. My docks have held up well (pipe dock with wood decks that are nailed together). Erosion hasn't been that bad but you can see a fine cloud of silt in the water after every series of waves from wakes. Agree with you on the float away docks and also on the large wakers. As I said before the cruisers and so called GFBL boats seemed to be the most courteous as far as wakes my observations. The "runabouts" that were out either had no clue or didn't care.

Let me know if you need any help with the "Winni Wave-o-meter", sounds like a 6 cocktail project to me.

If we follow the MP directors logic, no one should ever have to worry about tsunamis again.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...Even when everyone complies with the law, bad things happen..."

Question: How much of Lake Winnipesaukee's floating debris, floating lumber, runoff, mud, erosion, waves, wakes, and stressed waterfront structures did you actually witness this past week?

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on..."

The makings of a very sensitive "Winni Wave-O-Meter" is sitting on your dock! (That being water-filled garbage cans.)

If you noticed, the wakes impacting your dock produce sympathetic concentric rings on the water's surface. The rings are most intense towards the center and will sometimes send up a jet of water!

To take advantage of those rings, you can set up a low-mass float with a lever attached. This will transmit the vibrations to a suitable display to demonstrate the intensity of wake impacts. It can even record the exhaust pulses from a noisy boat—and before the boat comes into sight! (And why I've long-suggested a seismometer be used to measure exhaust noise).

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.

Progress or just a lack of reiteration? I still don't advocate poorly built docks even if you think poorly built docks are somehow progress. I don't claim to have all the answers but I cannot imagine how shoddy workmanship or lack of care for one's property has ever been the right thing to do

I suspect everyone agrees that courtesy will solve the problem. There isn't enough though. That's the reality that needs to be dealt with. Protecting your property hardly seems ridiculous to me. I'd swear it's common sense.

If the law (through the DES) does not allow you to protect your property and allows others to damage it, well, I guess you're hosed. You've obviously done your homework and realized nothing can ever be done. Sad to say it seems that giving up is the right thing to do in this case Perhaps I'm just too optimistic.

[KonaChick]

Dave R..you seem to think all our docks are made of lincoln logs....I don't get it.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I suspect everyone agrees that courtesy will solve the problem. There isn't enough though. That's the reality that needs to be dealt with.

Bingo, I suspect the useless proclaimation of a 600' NWZ was the result of a poll watching puffed suit in the NH corner office. Good leaders are hard to find. Tough decisions are hard to make.

Originally Posted by Dave R

Protecting your property hardly seems ridiculous to me. I'd swear it's common sense.

Let's try this one more time, I think we agree on the basic concepts, we just don't agree as to the extent to which they should be carried out. I want to try an analogy here. Suppose your house is robbed. You've taken reasonable precautions, dead bolts, locked your windows, alarm system still you got robbed. I come along and say "Pfft, Dave, there is much more you could have done, this is your fault" . "Why you should have barred all your windows, and installed steel plates over your doors. Dug a moat around your home, filled it with alligators and water and installed a draw bridge." "Then you will be safe and I will listen to your complaint about being robbed, otherwise, suck it up and be quiet."

You, Dave, say to yourself, "Well he does have a point, there is more I could have done." "However, if I bar up my windows, and install steel plates over my door, my quality of life will diminish". "If I dig a moat, fill it with alligators and build a draw bridge, my neighbors won't be too happy, the natural beauty of my lot will be destroyed. Never mind the issue of alligator dung all over my lawn." "At first glance, ITD's bars and moats seem like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But who wants to live next to a moat?"

All right, I have too much time on my hands.........

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by jrc

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it.

JRC that would be a waste of a perfectly good batch of tar and feathers...especially since I plan to use them to patch up the holes in my rickety dock.

[jrc]

good to see a sense of humor

[Airwaves]

This is my second, and last post on this topic.

I thought the topic dealt with wake and enforcement.

One last time I will suggest that transparency is the great equalizer!

Will one of the newspapers, daily or weekly, publish Marine Patrol calls, responses etc. like they do with town police and fire depts? Maybe even the Manchester Union Leader since the MP has boats in all state waterways and along the coast?

If the "log" is published and made pubic *BTW the log IS a public document* then we can stop all this name calling crap!

I thought the name calling went away with the end of the 45/25 legislation, apparently I am wrong.

If I am wrong about the animosity spilling over from the 45/25 issue then this is my last post.

[Moultonborolifeguard]

Originally Posted by MJP

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...

Your actually wrong about the docks with the circulators. My dock doesn't have any circulator near it during the winter. It uses a machine to stop wave action. Its called a break water. It just gets iced up completely every year. In the last 7 years we've had one 2x6 break because of the ice, and we are on the broads. Also I would maintain that peoples children have a lot better chance of getting hurt tubing from falling off going to fast, hitting bouys or other objects during normal conditions than debris caused by the high water. If your really worried about the danger than maybe we should just ban all water activities all together according to you just to be safe. Also those PWCs that were bothing you so much put out little to no wake. They almost certainly put out less wake than a bigger boat out at 600 feet. I would know I own and use one. I virtually garuntee, that you hate them when they are over 150' from shore during any normal summer if they are in front of your house. Instead of haivng the government spend more of my tax money trying to control people via MP why don't you just relax. The water level is plummeting rapidly now and in a few days with a little wind the water will be much lower and much less debris free. O well to bad looks like there'll be no NWZ this summer.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Moultonborolifeguard

Instead of haivng the government spend more of my tax money trying to control people via MP why don't you just relax.

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.

[Woodsy]

Folks..

Its getting a bit contentious here, and there is no need for it. Everybody needs to look at the BIG picture, not just thier particular slice of it.

The reality of the situation is that Lake Winnipesaukee is THE biggest economic engine for NH. There has to be a balance between the interests of the waterfront property owners, businesses, and the general public. Unfortunately you cannot please everyone. Revenues are down due to a lackluster winter tourist season especially around Lake Winnipesaukee and we all have to pay for the flood damage down in southern NH. The $$$ have to come from somewhere. The powers that be decided that it was not in the best interests of the state (general public) to mess with the economic engine that is Lake Winnipesaukee, a compromise was reached and thus we have a 600' NWZ.

I think the 600' NWZ was a fair compromise... had this event occured later in the season when boat traffic is much heavier, say after the kids were out of school, I have no doubt that it would have been a lake-wide NWZ.

I do sympathize with the property owners whose property is seeing some erosion and whose docks are getting bashed a bit because of the high water & boat traffic. You guys & gals are getting thrown under the bus, no doubt about it. However, you are a very small but vocal percentage of the general population, with many of you citizens of other states. The $$$ have to come from somewhere to make up the revenue shortfall. Would you like to see an increase in your property tax to cover this shortfall? If the tax was temporary, say it only went up another $1 per thousand for 1 year? I doubt anyone will would seriously entertain that idea. So where is the money supposed to come from to make up the shortfall and pay for the flooding? Does someone have any better ideas?

Tourism drives the NH Economy. You start messing around with that and pretty soon some dock damage & shoreline erosion will be the least of your problems.

The Dam Operators in Lakeport are draining the lake as quickly as possible. In a week or so all will be close to normal.

Woodsy

PS: For the record I saw very few performance boats out this weekend. It seemed to be moslty fish boats and runabouts. I did see a few big cruisers. At Braun Bay on saturday it was all cruisers & runabouts with only 5-6 performance boats. The docking at the NASWA was similar.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

PS: For the record I saw very few performance boats out this weekend. It seemed to be moslty fish boats and runabouts. I did see a few big cruisers. At Braun Bay on saturday it was all cruisers & runabouts with only 5-6 performance boats. The docking at the NASWA was similar.

I second that. Most of the boats that I saw were cruisers or family runabouts. There was considerably less performance boats in the areas that I traveled. For the most part I saw better compliance from the performance boats.

[Moultonborolifeguard]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.

Actually this summer I haven't been boating much at all yet, and certainly haven't broken any rules or swamped anyones property. I was arguing more against the attitude presented by some of the people here. I have no problem staying far away from shore or going slower. I can understand people don't want their property wrecked. I do have a problem with people who basiclly want a NWZ as an excuse for not having boat traffic in front of their house as seems to be evident in a number of people here.

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.

the issues out there this weekend weren't caused by go fast boats they were caused by inconsiderate people. I live in a no wake zone and truthfully would rather have the boats come through at 70 that 3-4 mph over no wake speed putting up the biggest wake they could. That was the issue with HB162 it addressed somethng that wasn't the cause of the issues on the lake. I boat winni 10-12 days per year and am on Ossipee about 45 days a year and in the last 6 years I've been out there I haven't had 1 issue with boats going too fast but have multiple issues per day with people vioalting the NMW and the 150 foot rules.

[Weirs guy]

ossipeeboater, let me try and be more specific. I’m not a boater so I’ll stay away from using terms that I don’t understand. My issue this week has been with "boats" (motorized means of transportation traveling on water) that were well within 600' of my beach making waves/wakes/tsunami's that caused water to wash over my little beach, my kids, wife and me. My words were “go fast crowd”, not “go fast boats”.

I was opposed to hb162 because I personally detest any law that takes away from personal freedoms. However, if this weeks behavior is the norm that some of the hb162 supporters deal with, then I can see there reasoning for supporting the bill. If I were a boater I would be concerned that behavior like this past weekends could lead to another speed limit bill.

HOWEVER, I’m not trying to restart the speed limit debate by any means. I think Dave R hit the nail on the head in another topic when he said that your observations from this weekend depended on where you live. I’ve never had issues with wakes when the lake is at normal levels, other people do. It would be great if we could cut the lake up into “regions” with different requirements (this half is a NWZ, that quarter has a speed limit, this sections wide open racetrack), but that’s not practical for every square inch of the lake.

So I’m back to a potato and paint ball guns.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

{snip}
So I’m back to a potato and paint ball guns.

How about "The Beast" from these guys ...
http://www.waterballoonlaunchers.com/

[Weirs guy]

Now we're talking!

[twins]

I hate to interrupt such a spirited exchange of ideas (and keep this thread alive!), But I purchased one of the twin islands (Gem Island) in Melvin Bay over the winter and have been concerned about the status of the dock. We were planning on leaving from Florida to go to the island for the summer right when the rains hit but have delayed our trip as I'm sure our dock was under a foot of water.

We're hoping to leave at the end of next week, and would like to know if there is a dock to tie our boat to.

If anyone is out on the lake and in the area, could you take a look and let us know, I would appreciate it.

[Islander2]

twins,

Which one is Gem, the one closer to Melvin Village, or the one further away? Will see what the weather conditions are when I arrive later today, and could take a cruise by, if the rain lets up.

[twins]

It is the furthest from Melvin Bay, the northwestern twin. Thanks.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Moultonborolifeguard

Your actually wrong about the docks with the circulators. My dock doesn't have any circulator near it during the winter. It uses a machine to stop wave action. Its called a break water.

Breakwaters are only used in certain instances, depending on the direction you are facing and the distance of open, unobstructed water. Many docks on the lake use circulators, I would dare say that there are more permanent docks on the lake without breakwaters than with. For instance where we are located there are only a few breakwaters on the side of Mark facing Governer's but most of the island has permament docks using circulators.

Some even use circulators with breakwaters. Breakwaters these days are getting harder and harder to permit through DES.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Tir Na Nog

I just got back to the Boston after a weekend up at the Lake. We did get out on the boat both Saturday and Sunday. We boat out of Wolfeboro. I saw very few boats following the No Wake rule. Nor did it seem to me that anyone at Goodhue hawkins was advising boaters of the rule. Saturday was a little windy and there were not as many boats out when we were at around 4, but even in Wolfeboro Bay the boats were popping right up to speed and pushing a wake as soon as they got away from the docks. On Sunday, there were may more boats out and even less compliance. We motored over to Alton Bay and as we came to the area of Echo Point (where I think it would be tough to keep 600 feet from either shore) we saw all of these boats coming out at headway speed and I thought at least there the word was out. A little further in the Bay I saw why. There was a MP boat cruising out. CLearly noncompliance was not just a lack of knowledge. I saw one boat passing all the others at headway speed, probably not even following the 150 foot rule as to other boats, and he immediately powered down when he saw the MP boat, which I had hoped would be pulling him over. There seems very limited enforcement of the rules. Has NH ever considered something similar to the Coast Guard Auxiliary to help out on the lake? Auxiliary volunteers have been very helpful to the Coasties with little expense as they are volunteers.

Except for Goodhue, which I didn't see, your observations match mine.

Sunday was somewhat windier than today and Saturday, and did a better job of "covering up the evidence". (Many boats could spread a big wake and go faster+ than headway). Today was calm with somewhat better compliance, but full of exhaust >>koff<< >>koff << fumes , like most calm weekend days.

It seems that the 600' rule was neglectful of those dock owners without a breakwater which, in my neighborhood, is about 95% (without breakwaters). Remember,
"The 600' Rule Was a Compromise of Competing Interests", which were tourism and...and...and...I forgot the other one.

There was a Marine Patrol Auxiliary but was disbanded, according to a 2002 letter written to the Granite State News following a hit&run fatality. The writer, from Tuftonbboro, appeared upset that the MP Auxiliary's work—restricted to a floating advisory role—went under-appreciated.

BTW: Today offered an opportunity to put out water-filled garbage cans on the "high" side of my dock that had developed from last week's heavy winds and high water. Thanks mostly to a boat towing a tube, the affected dock end-piling appears to have nearly "settled back in"!

(Now if the governor can just raise the lake about another 4 inches, I should be able to get it perfectly level).