Boat crash

[LIforrelaxin]

I don't think the impact was as great as some of you may think. It only have to be significant enough to start the sinking process. Through the process involved heading to the bottom, and then of course touching down significant damage could have also happened to the boat that sank.....

[steve c]

If both boats were moving forward at even 20 mph that's still a significant effective collision speed. The damage to the Penn Yan is pretty symmetrical so it seems like a pretty square hit to me. Very sad situation

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I don't think the impact was as great as some of you may think. It only have to be significant enough to start the sinking process. Through the process involved heading to the bottom, and then of course touching down significant damage could have also happened to the boat that sank.....

Your kidding right??... Did you see the bow of that boat?? Touching down on the bottom did not do that!

I agree with steve c that if both boats were going 20 mph or even less, the overall force of that collision is very significant. Similar to hitting a brick wall at 40 mph!

Dan

[Bear Islander]

The WMUR video report used several still shots from my BearCam at www.bearchow.com to show the recovery process. Kind of eerie to see a recovery just a few feet off of my dock.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Your kidding right??... Did you see the bow of that boat?? Touching down on the bottom did not do that!

I agree with steve c that if both boats were going 20 mph or even less, the overall force of that collision is very significant. Similar to hitting a brick wall at 40 mph!

Dan

Actually no I am not kidding, Notice that the hull is operated, the deck is already gone..... And I believe was gone as a result of activities the night of the accident.... Once the deck became detached from the hill all kinds of things can happen.

Given the damage seen on the other boat involved, I don't believe the impact was what people want to believe it was..... I don't think the impact separated the deck off the boat.... I think there was damage done during the sinking and recovery effort that has to be factored out to understand the impact of that night....

Once autopsy results and the investigation details made public, we will all be able to understand more about what happened that night.....

All in all this is a very tragic incident.

[DPatnaude]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Actually no I am not kidding, Notice that the hull is operated, the deck is already gone..... And I believe was gone as a result of activities the night of the accident.... Once the deck became detached from the hill all kinds of things can happen.

Given the damage seen on the other boat involved, I don't believe the impact was what people want to believe it was..... I don't think the impact separated the deck off the boat.... I think there was damage done during the sinking and recovery effort that has to be factored out to understand the impact of that night....

Once autopsy results and the investigation details made public, we will all be able to understand more about what happened that night.....

All in all this is a very tragic incident.

Other news articles indicated that the deck was removed previously by the investigators. The deck contained the light switches and was removed to verify position of the switches and I would guess to check their operation.

[Marine Patrol]

For the past month Marine Patrol has worked diligently to preserve the physical evidence left behind after this tragic crash. Due to the nature of the incident, unique circumstances and difficult conditions have made this a challenge.

Unfortunately, our society too often demands immediate answers, instant gratification, and timely rewards. If not provided...someone's not doing their job or there is a cover-up in progress! Folks, sometimes things take more time than we all can control.

Many people have offered their thoughts and theories as to the events of November 9th. Faulty GPS, medical conditions, paths of travel, lights, angles, etc., etc. Public speculation has served no purpose in this case. However, it has left loved ones seeking answers to questions that are based solely on ignorant, uninformed statements.

From the inception of this forum I have restrained from commenting on topics related to Marine Patrol as doing so would have only served to fuel meaningless (to me) debate. This case is different. Tonight I must say some of this debate has only served to hurt others. We are trying to get answers for two grieving families. I recognize this forum is the place to exchange ideas, opinions, and even theories related to boating accidents. However, in this case, the genuine intent of some authors has result in unintended reactions.

So moving forward, I ask you to consider calling Marine Patrol if you have FACTUAL information, information specific to the boat occupants, or the boats themselves. That is what will help investigators and the families. Ignorant theories based upon assumed facts serves no legitimate purpose...and in this case, has brought unnecessary pain on to others.

I can assure you that Marine Patrol has remained in contact with the Hanson and Lyon families throughout this investigation. Our highly trained investigators are committed to finding and providing as many answers as the evidence can offer.

For those of you who may have taken offense to my comments, feel free to contact me directly at 227-2110. My plea was not intended to offend you, it was intended to protect those who are grieving.

Thank you,

Tim Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

[Cal Coon]

Originally Posted by Marine Patrol

For the past month Marine Patrol has worked diligently to preserve the physical evidence left behind after this tragic crash. Due to the nature of the incident, unique circumstances and difficult conditions have made this a challenge.

Unfortunately, our society too often demands immediate answers, instant gratification, and timely rewards. If not provided...someone's not doing their job or there is a cover-up in progress! Folks, sometimes things take more time than we all can control.

Many people have offered their thoughts and theories as to the events of November 9th. Faulty GPS, medical conditions, paths of travel, lights, angles, etc., etc. Public speculation has served no purpose in this case. However, it has left loved ones seeking answers to questions that are based solely on ignorant, uninformed statements.

From the inception of this forum I have restrained from commenting on topics related to Marine Patrol as doing so would have only served to fuel meaningless (to me) debate. This case is different. Tonight I must say some of this debate has only served to hurt others. We are trying to get answers for two grieving families. I recognize this forum is the place to exchange ideas, opinions, and even theories related to boating accidents. However, in this case, the genuine intent of some authors has result in unintended reactions.

So moving forward, I ask you to consider calling Marine Patrol if you have FACTUAL information, information specific to the boat occupants, or the boats themselves. That is what will help investigators and the families. Ignorant theories based upon assumed facts serves no legitimate purpose...and in this case, has brought unnecessary pain on to others.

I can assure you that Marine Patrol has remained in contact with the Hanson and Lyon families throughout this investigation. Our highly trained investigators are committed to finding and providing as many answers as the evidence can offer.

For those of you who may have taken offense to my comments, feel free to contact me directly at 227-2110. My plea was not intended to offend you, it was intended to protect those who are grieving.

Thank you,

Tim Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

It would be very much appreciated if Marine Patrol would give an update as to what is known thus far to end some of the speculation.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by Cal Coon

It would be very much appreciated if Marine Patrol would give an update as to what is known thus far to end some of the speculation.

I have a different take on Captain Dunleavy's post.
I think it's perfectly normal that people would speculate about what happened and exchange thoughts on what might have caused the accident especially since it involved two experienced and well respected boaters.
I don't recall him responding in such a fashion (calling posters ignorant" when everyone was discussing the two other fatal accidents in previous years.
It wasn't a criminal matter and everyone was respectful to the families so I just don't understand what seemed to be such an angry response. I find it a little improper from a public official.
After all the thanks he got.....I'll probably get blasted but just my take on it.

[Marine Patrol]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I have a different take on Captain Dunleavy's post.
I think it's perfectly normal that people would speculate about what happened and exchange thoughts on what might have caused the accident especially since it involved two experienced and well respected boaters.
I don't recall him responding in such a fashion (calling posters ignorant" when everyone was discussing the two other fatal accidents in previous years.
It wasn't a criminal matter and everyone was respectful to the families so I just don't understand what seemed to be such an angry response. I find it a little improper from a public official.
After all the thanks he got.....I'll probably get blasted but just my take on it.

SAMIAM,
My apologies! My comment, "ignorant, uninformed statements" was directed at some of the conclusions proposed in this thread and not at any one specific member of this forum.

Ignorant statements are those made without specific knowledge in a particular field (in this case boat accident reconstruction, or without the benefit of seeing these boats in person).

At no time did I intend to insult members of this forum. Again, my apologies if my comments were misunderstood.

Tim

[ApS]

You see, seldom are we able to get the full story (or the "back-story") on events initiated by the MSM/media--especially those with boats in the "picture".

We are drawn to investigation, so we do what we can here.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Marine Patrol

For the past month Marine Patrol has worked diligently to preserve the physical evidence left behind after this tragic crash. Due to the nature of the incident, unique circumstances and difficult conditions have made this a challenge.

Unfortunately, our society too often demands immediate answers, instant gratification, and timely rewards. If not provided...someone's not doing their job or there is a cover-up in progress! Folks, sometimes things take more time than we all can control.

Many people have offered their thoughts and theories as to the events of November 9th. Faulty GPS, medical conditions, paths of travel, lights, angles, etc., etc. Public speculation has served no purpose in this case. However, it has left loved ones seeking answers to questions that are based solely on ignorant, uninformed statements.

From the inception of this forum I have restrained from commenting on topics related to Marine Patrol as doing so would have only served to fuel meaningless (to me) debate. This case is different. Tonight I must say some of this debate has only served to hurt others. We are trying to get answers for two grieving families. I recognize this forum is the place to exchange ideas, opinions, and even theories related to boating accidents. However, in this case, the genuine intent of some authors has result in unintended reactions.

So moving forward, I ask you to consider calling Marine Patrol if you have FACTUAL information, information specific to the boat occupants, or the boats themselves. That is what will help investigators and the families. Ignorant theories based upon assumed facts serves no legitimate purpose...and in this case, has brought unnecessary pain on to others.

I can assure you that Marine Patrol has remained in contact with the Hanson and Lyon families throughout this investigation. Our highly trained investigators are committed to finding and providing as many answers as the evidence can offer.

For those of you who may have taken offense to my comments, feel free to contact me directly at 227-2110. My plea was not intended to offend you, it was intended to protect those who are grieving.

Thank you,

Tim Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

Curious as to why Marine Patrol felt it necessary to speak up in this particular instance. Where were you when the Diamond Island accident occurred as there were far more pages upon pages of speculation here in this forum than in this instance. There were deaths and grieving families in that accident as well....why the double standard??

[MAXUM]

Just "speculation" on my part but maybe MP just wanted to let everyone know that family members of the victims are aware of and likely reading this very thread. For all I know some may be forum members that have actually participated.

I do not believe the intended purpose is to squelch discussion folks, rather acknowledgement of who is reading this, the reactions from some statements made and consider what or how something is said moving forward with that in mind. I don't think it inappropriate for a public official in this capacity to make such a statement. Is it really that abhorrent to some that Mr. Dunleavy show a little empathy for the families of the victims here at this time? That's pretty heartless if you think so.

I also don't see this at all as a double standard. Whos to say following those other investigations the fact wildly speculating conversations on a forum like this going unaddressed wasn't flagged as something that needs to be in the future if or when deemed appropriate?

I applaud the efforts of Marine Patrol and all other agencies participating in this investigation. Answers will come in due time.

[Barney Bear]

Hal Lyon was a participant of this informative forum, particularly making contributions about fishing. 🐻

[steve c]

Bear cam snap shot

[Phantom]

in deference to those closer to the families ……… can we NOT debate the impact speculations in open forum?

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Phantom

in deference to those closer to the families ……… can we NOT debate the impact speculations in open forum?

Why? This forum had no problem debating the Diamond Is incident impacts etc etc! Double standard?

Bottom line is both guys made mistakes.... the accident report will bear that out! They never just blame 1 guy!

Woodsy

[fatlazyless]

The new light emitting diode light bulb technology that is slowly replacing the old incandescent light bulbs are much brighter, and much easier to see across the water, especially on a rainy, foggy night.

From my mega-mega-mega-mega multi million dollar waterfront location .... (every year or so, it gets another mega) I watch boats putt-putt past at night, all the time from a distance, and there is a big, big difference in the brightness boat light visibility on the boats, out there.

Sometimes, the old bulbs are not very bright even when brand new, plus the green, red, or white cover gets faded over the years which also lowers the visibility.

Whether you drive a boat or pedal a bicycle, if you go out at night, having some good, strong, bright lights can definitely make the big difference.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The new light emitting diode light bulb technology that is slowly replacing the old incandescent light bulbs are much brighter, and much easier to see across the water, especially on a rainy, foggy night.

From my mega-mega-mega-mega multi million dollar waterfront location .... (every year or so, it gets another mega) I watch boats putt-putt past at night, all the time from a distance, and there is a big, big difference in the brightness boat light visibility on the boats, out there.

Sometimes, the old bulbs are not very bright even when brand new, plus the green, red, or white cover gets faded over the years which also lowers the visibility.

Whether you drive a boat or pedal a bicycle, if you go out at night, having some good, strong, bright lights can definitely make the big difference.

If you do upgrade your navigation light bulbs to LEDs, be sure to use USCG certified bulbs. Many non-USCG bulbs will cause interference with a VHF radio, rendering it useless. I realize that most don't use VHF radios on the lake, so it may not matter to you, but it might be a big deal for the next owner of your boat that needs help some night and is out of cell range (perhaps somewhere other than Winni) and can't get their VHF to work.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Dave R

If you do upgrade your navigation light bulbs to LEDs, be sure to use USCG certified bulbs. Many non-USCG bulbs will cause interference with a VHF radio, rendering it useless. I realize that most don't use VHF radios on the lake, so it may not matter to you, but it might be a big deal for the next owner of your boat that needs help some night and is out of cell range (perhaps somewhere other than Winni) and can't get their VHF to work.

Great point Dave! The interference from LED bulbs can be significant!

I installed LED bulbs in my garage door openers and the range on my remote control was drastically affected. I basically had to be right against the garage door for it to work. It was the bulbs interference causing the problem!

Dan

[rick35]

Off topic slightly: I’ll be swapping out my garage door light bulbs this weekend. I thought it was strange that the range was so short compared to previous openers.

Back on topic: I replaced my bow light with led because the bulbs wear out when it’s inconvenient. Don’t have to hang out over the bow to figure out how to get the light apart or worry that I don’t have an extra bulb. And I have two stern lights in case one is lost over the side.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Great point Dave! The interference from LED bulbs can be significant!

I installed LED bulbs in my garage door openers and the range on my remote control was drastically affected. I basically had to be right against the garage door for it to work. It was the bulbs interference causing the problem!

Dan

Same here. The Led bulbs you want for your garage door opener have to have an FCC compliance statement on the box.

Back to the crash...

Is there a possibility that the bow of the boat seen in the video was cut to allow for the extrication of the deceased?

[salty dog]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Great point Dave! The interference from LED bulbs can be significant!

I installed LED bulbs in my garage door openers and the range on my remote control was drastically affected. I basically had to be right against the garage door for it to work. It was the bulbs interference causing the problem!

Dan

I just wanted to chime in. First, I'd like to state as all others have here; this was an absolutely devastating tragedy. Imagine a quiet uneventful evening suddenly transformed in an instant, changing lives forever. Secondly. I enlarged and tried to enhance the bow photo image. If I had no idea of the circumstances and saw this photo, I'd say someone took a Sawzall to the bow. (MHO). Third, quick reference to the LED changes; I recently replaced my garage door openers lights ( as Dan did) with LED's only to find the remotes were inoperable. I had to replace them with CFL's to work.

[Cal Coon]

Originally Posted by Phantom

in deference to those closer to the families ……… can we NOT debate the impact speculations in open forum?

I'm sure the families have the same questions the rest of us have. Unfortunately, this accident could be a great teachable moment for the rest of us if all these questions can be answered. Especially since these two gentlemen were so experienced. The fact that this could happen to them could serve the rest of us well, (if we can get the answers to all these questions). It's ok to ask all the questions, just be respectful.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Phantom

in deference to those closer to the families ……… can we NOT debate the impact speculations in open forum?

I applaud Capt. Dunleavy's intent ……….. I tried the same thing last Thursday but got a "thread lashing" from many & so the debate and speculation continued !

Capt. -- it is good to know that you keep an eye on this Forum to gauge Public opinion.

[iw8surf]

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

I took it as more of a request to be respectful of the victims and their families.

BTW, free speech has no application here on this forum. You are free to type anything you want. It's up to the moderator to determine what is allowed to be posted.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

I believe that you are missing his message. C’mon, lighten up!

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

The Captain was asking people to be respectful of the pain that the families are going through. He hoped that the speculation would go away for now. I am sure the correct information will be released when the time is right.

Read the entire thread and think about how you would feel about the idle speculation if it were one of your family members involved in this tragedy.

It is obvious, especially with his follow up post to clarify his intent, that his intentions were correct. The Captain should be commended for his post.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

I think this is out of line. It is certainly inconsistent with the general intent of Capt. Dunleavy's posts. I have had many interactions with Capt. Dunleavy as well as Director Barrett before him over many years. They, and their officers and staff have great compassion and empathy for others. They are professionals and you don't go far in their profession without compassion and empathy. Thank you, Captain.

[BoatHouse]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

Nothing like the police getting online to a public forum and requesting to silence peoples free speech. Live free or die!

Completely disagree with your message. My take is they are looking for people to be respectful of the families and do not speculate on something we have no facts or basis. Think from the families perspective

[garysanfran]

Doesn't mean there can't be consequences for what you say...Such as saying things in bad taste when proper decorum dictates speech moderation.

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

Doesn't mean there can't be consequences for what you say...Such as saying things in bad taste when proper decorum dictates speech moderation.

One would think, but I don't see that happening around here much, consequences that is...

[skprbob]

All of our cherished freedoms come with the responsibility to use it wisely and I observe that freedom of speech is perhaps the most abused.

We also need to remember Sherlock Holmes' First Rule: "It is a capital error to theorize in advance of the facts."