Face Masks

[LoveLakeLife]

I couldn’t care less if the “sky is falling” set want to wear football helmets, burkas, or suits of armor in public. That’s their choice and I don’t shake my head or roll my eyes at them. It’s when they try to impose their viewpoint on others through government coercion that they become worthy of scorn.


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[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Actually, no. You may be able to skip the mask, but you cannot assert there is some sort of equality going on here. Burger King vs McDonalds is a reasonable debate. The American Medical Association vs some quacks who do not believe in vaccines is just pitiful.

There you go again, discrediting and insulting any organizing that doesn’t follow your leftist agenda. You’ll never convince me, and I’ll never convince you, so we might as well leave it at that. I’ve also read an opinion from the New England Journal of Medicine stating that masks are useless. But I suppose you’ll call them quacks too.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ApS

Wanna try that again?

Thanks, I think I'm good with what I said. Trump is our President, as I've written in numerous other posts. But on this issue he is only leading some of the people. Hill made it clear that he is following Trump's lead in general. So...I hope he will follow his leader's recent advice to wear a mask

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

There you go again, discrediting and insulting any organizing that doesn’t follow your leftist agenda. You’ll never convince me, and I’ll never convince you, so we might as well leave it at that. I’ve also read an opinion from the New England Journal of Medicine stating that masks are useless. But I suppose you’ll call them quacks too.

TO THE EDITOR:
We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org)1 as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less. It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions.2,3 Universal masking helps to prevent such people from spreading virus-laden secretions, whether they recognize that they are infected or not.4

We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments. A growing body of research shows that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission is strongly correlated with the duration and intensity of contact: the risk of transmission among household members can be as high as 40%, whereas the risk of transmission from less intense and less sustained encounters is below 5%.5-7 This finding is also borne out by recent research associating mask wearing with less transmission of SARS-CoV-2, particularly in closed settings.8 We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.

Michael Klompas, M.D., M.P.H.
Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA

Charles A. Morris, M.D., M.P.H.
Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA

Erica S. Shenoy, M.D., Ph.D.
Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I couldn’t care less if the “sky is falling” set want to wear football helmets, burkas, or suits of armor in public. That’s their choice and I don’t shake my head or roll my eyes at them. It’s when they try to impose their viewpoint on others through government coercion that they become worthy of scorn.


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It's nice of you to not shake your head or roll your eyes at others.

Do you consider stores requiring masks as government coercion?

I ask because I would wonder about the strength of your conviction against being told what to do.

I'm not being a smart-ass here. I truly wonder what you would do if you needed something from a place that mandated a policy that runs against your grain.

[LoveLakeLife]

A valid question, Jeep,and I could tell before you mentioned it that you were being sincerely curious and not a smart ass. You’re right, a company policy of a private business is not government coercion. While private businesses can’t lawfully discriminate against members of a protected class, it can set set conditions on entry to prospective customers. Upon being notified of a mask requirement and a refusal to allow entry sans mask, I’ve turned around and walked out of a drugstore, a few restaurants, and the gift shop at the Weirs. I did take care to politely mention that I would spend my money somewhere else. I did accede to wearing a mask in a pulmonologist’s office, for obvious and defensible reasons. Thanks for the nice tenor of your question, I hope I’ve responded in kind.


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[WinnisquamZ]

This morning I stop for gas and coffee in Tilton. Sign on the door said masks are required. Put mine on and then realized less then half of the working folks had them on. Removed mine and smiled


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[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Thanks, I think I'm good with what I said. Trump is our President, as I've written in numerous other posts. But on this issue he is only leading some of the people. Hill made it clear that he is following Trump's lead in general. So...I hope he will follow his leader's recent advice to wear a mask

Flying Scot...you’re a good, reasonable person.
I have shared here that I will wear a mask in limited situations where I deem it to be necessary. I hate them as they fog my glasses and make me sweat. I also avoid situations where I might need one (wife does most shopping).
I don’t do anything just because Trump does or advises but he was (and is) choice for president. In general, his policies align with my needs and a greater reason is that he’s not part of the DC swamp...just a rich businessman that wants to keep the country on a path that i agree with. That’s all.
If there were a better choice I would vote for him/her.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

Flying Scot...you’re a good, reasonable person.
I have shared here that I will wear a mask in limited situations where I deem it to be necessary. I hate them as they fog my glasses and make me sweat. I also avoid situations where I might need one (wife does most shopping).
I don’t do anything just because Trump does or advises but he was (and is) choice for president. In general, his policies align with my needs and a greater reason is that he’s not part of the DC swamp...just a rich businessman that wants to keep the country on a path that i agree with. That’s all.
If there were a better choice I would vote for him/her.

That sounds reasonable and fair to me, even if we disagree about the political stuff. It's sad the politics has become so divisive in our country. (BTW, I also hate the masks and the fog, and being in places where I need one.)

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

There you go again, discrediting and insulting any organizing that doesn’t follow your leftist agenda. You’ll never convince me, and I’ll never convince you, so we might as well leave it at that. I’ve also read an opinion from the New England Journal of Medicine stating that masks are useless. But I suppose you’ll call them quacks too.

That is not accurate, and I'm pretty sure we've had this exchange before. I do not discredit anybody who does not follow my agenda. I have posted that Forbes and the Wall St Journal, just for example, are reliable news sources even if I don't like their editorial slant. I have also saluted the work of several Republican Governors. Reasonable people can disagree on lots of things.

But when you assert that vaccine deniers are medical experts, it is dangerous to other people who might not read carefully enough or have enough advance knowledge to know that this is complete baloney.

[VitaBene]

I fly a ton and am a reader, so the fogging was killing me. Try pulling the mask a bit higher on your nose so that your glasses are resting on the fabric and not your skin. Works for me well at least with a cloth mask.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

This morning I stop for gas and coffee in Tilton. Sign on the door said masks are required. Put mine on and then realized less then half of the working folks had them on. Removed mine and smiled


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That’s some brave stuff right there! Something to tell the grandkids about!

[XCR-700]

Its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

It should be more clear, but it appears to me the that it has been manipulated by the media, politicians, pundits, so called experts, media and anyone who wants camera time and will take a stand on one side or the other.

Lacking are any normal scientific and medical industry standard proof of anything being stated on either side of this debate. (generally cited are double-blind formal studies, not random data)

Lacking is credibility from any of the people making statements, only hearsay, innuendo, anecdotal evidence - not factual evidence, sincerity - only overly dramatic pleas to believe their belief(s)

Again I will say this is all very troubling, and not productive, and not effective except to divide and agitate the masses.

And I'm sorry, but any statements that NY, MA or anyone else got it right, are doing what needs to be done, are on the right side of the debate, etc are speculative and generally unfounded. Why are they better, because their numbers are in decline and the worst appears behind them. Maybe thats just because most of the people in those states have been exposed and the virus has run its course through the majority of the population there. Thats just as scientific as any blind belief that social distancing, masks, or anything else being done is working.

Without factual results from scientific studies we are still shooting in the dark, and no one can actually tell you whats going on.

So do face masks work or not, are they better than nothing, is it true they cant hurt,,, Anyone who says they have the answer is either misinformed, or uninformed, there is no actual industry standard scientific data to support any of what is being said. Its just as much a mess today as it was so many months ago.

Its shocking how much a mess this still is.

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

A valid question, Jeep,and I could tell before you mentioned it that you were being sincerely curious and not a smart ass. You’re right, a company policy of a private business is not government coercion. While private businesses can’t lawfully discriminate against members of a protected class, it can set set conditions on entry to prospective customers. Upon being notified of a mask requirement and a refusal to allow entry sans mask, I’ve turned around and walked out of a drugstore, a few restaurants, and the gift shop at the Weirs. I did take care to politely mention that I would spend my money somewhere else. I did accede to wearing a mask in a pulmonologist’s office, for obvious and defensible reasons. Thanks for the nice tenor of your question, I hope I’ve responded in kind.


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Thank you.
Yes, I guess if you decide to make another trip to shop somewhere else it all makes sense- you take responsibility.
It's really all any of us can do- without all the hooting and hollaring!

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

That’s some brave stuff right there! Something to tell the grandkids about!

No "s" needed

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I couldn’t care less if the “sky is falling” set want to wear football helmets, burkas, or suits of armor in public. That’s their choice and I don’t shake my head or roll my eyes at them. It’s when they try to impose their viewpoint on others through government coercion that they become worthy of scorn.


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I think there is a balance to be had.

Even if you dont believe in it, is there major harm or inconvenience in wearing masks for short periods?

If a business owner asks customers to wear one while shopping, and we harmed or put out for those moments we are there.

Alternatively, employees forced to wear masks, who dont believe in this standard, should they required to endure the burden of breathing countless hours through the same mask, re-breathing things the body is designed to expel, and possibly growing bacteria on these masks of questionable origin? How is that fair to them.

We clearly have some insignificant impacts and some very significant impacts with all this, but I seem to observe the most complaints and push back over the insignificant impacts,,,

Just one persons perspective of a very difficult and confusing matter.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

A valid question, Jeep,and I could tell before you mentioned it that you were being sincerely curious and not a smart ass. You’re right, a company policy of a private business is not government coercion. While private businesses can’t lawfully discriminate against members of a protected class, it can set set conditions on entry to prospective customers. Upon being notified of a mask requirement and a refusal to allow entry sans mask, I’ve turned around and walked out of a drugstore, a few restaurants, and the gift shop at the Weirs. I did take care to politely mention that I would spend my money somewhere else. I did accede to wearing a mask in a pulmonologist’s office, for obvious and defensible reasons. Thanks for the nice tenor of your question, I hope I’ve responded in kind.


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And here in is the true value/benefit/beauty of America (well at least in the past and for the moment) in that you have the ability to take your business elsewhere.

We all do this for countless reasons, and I hope we will be able to continue with this personal freedom.

There are times and places for imposed standards that we must all comply with, and usually they make 100% sense. For example not smoking while refueling your car/boat.

It would be ideal if all imposed standards were as obvious and commonly agreed upon as the refueling standard, but our world is not so simple.

Lacking that, how do we find a balance where some dont feel at risk, and others dont feel imposed upon for no valid reason?

I dont have an answer, but I'm sure others do on both sides of this debate have all the answers,,,

[Pam]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

It should be more clear, but it appears to me the that it has been manipulated by the media, politicians, pundits, so called experts, media and anyone who wants camera time and will take a stand on one side or the other.

Lacking are any normal scientific and medical industry standard proof of anything being stated on either side of this debate. (generally cited are double-blind formal studies, not random data)

Lacking is credibility from any of the people making statements, only hearsay, innuendo, anecdotal evidence - not factual evidence, sincerity - only overly dramatic pleas to believe their belief(s)

Again I will say this is all very troubling, and not productive, and not effective except to divide and agitate the masses.

And I'm sorry, but any statements that NY, MA or anyone else got it right, are doing what needs to be done, are on the right side of the debate, etc are speculative and generally unfounded. Why are they better, because their numbers are in decline and the worst appears behind them. Maybe thats just because most of the people in those states have been exposed and the virus has run its course through the majority of the population there. Thats just as scientific as any blind belief that social distancing, masks, or anything else being done is working.

Without factual results from scientific studies we are still shooting in the dark, and no one can actually tell you whats going on.

So do face masks work or not, are they better than nothing, is it true they cant hurt,,, Anyone who says they have the answer is either misinformed, or uninformed, there is no actual industry standard scientific data to support any of what is being said. Its just as much a mess today as it was so many months ago.

Its shocking how much a mess this still is.

I suspect the value of masks in preventing the spread of disease through airborne droplets has been well proven; otherwise, healthcare workers, dentists, etc. would not be wearing them. Plus, it's just common sense that if you cover your face, you're not exhaling germs as readily as if you were not wearing a mask. (Which is why we were all taught as children to cover our mouths when we coughed, sneezed, etc.) It's unfortunate that vulnerable people cannot just protect themselves. They must rely on other people to cover their faces. Therefore, we all wear masks in public and we're all protected. Easy and sensible. Hopefully this pandemic will not last forever, and everyone should do their part. Good citizenship and all that.

[LoveLakeLife]

Hi XCR

Another good observation. Regarding workers being required to wear masks, that’s a condition of their employment. While on the clock, their time is not their own and they have to follow the employers rules in exchange for a paycheck. Their option is to quit and work somewhere else that doesn’t require masks.

My first job was as a drugstore cashier. I was philosophically opposed to ringing up people’s cigarettes but I realized that I was doing so in my capacity as an employee of the company, not in my own personal capacity. I didn’t like doing it but I did it because if the employment construct.

Regarding the What’s the Harm doctrine that many people have raised, its logically infirm. Extend that thinking logically and it applies to anything. For instance what’s the harm in wearing a mask from the time you leave the house until you return? What’s the harm in voluntarily driving a maximum of ten miles an hour to reduce the risk of a collision? Etc.

The better question than What’s the Harm is What’s the Use?


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[JEEPONLY]

My first job was as as a drug store clerk.
Discreet gentlemen were allowed to step behind the counter and give the OK signal- circle formed with thumb and index finger, other three fingers up (nothing spoken).
The purchase?- three Trojans, bagged.
No need to ask, "What's the use?" (Even though I was only 16)

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

It should be more clear, but it appears to me the that it has been manipulated by the media, politicians, pundits, so called experts, media and anyone who wants camera time and will take a stand on one side or the other.

Lacking are any normal scientific and medical industry standard proof of anything being stated on either side of this debate. (generally cited are double-blind formal studies, not random data)

Lacking is credibility from any of the people making statements, only hearsay, innuendo, anecdotal evidence - not factual evidence, sincerity - only overly dramatic pleas to believe their belief(s)

Again I will say this is all very troubling, and not productive, and not effective except to divide and agitate the masses.

And I'm sorry, but any statements that NY, MA or anyone else got it right, are doing what needs to be done, are on the right side of the debate, etc are speculative and generally unfounded. Why are they better, because their numbers are in decline and the worst appears behind them. Maybe thats just because most of the people in those states have been exposed and the virus has run its course through the majority of the population there. Thats just as scientific as any blind belief that social distancing, masks, or anything else being done is working.

Without factual results from scientific studies we are still shooting in the dark, and no one can actually tell you whats going on.

So do face masks work or not, are they better than nothing, is it true they cant hurt,,, Anyone who says they have the answer is either misinformed, or uninformed, there is no actual industry standard scientific data to support any of what is being said. Its just as much a mess today as it was so many months ago.

Its shocking how much a mess this still is.

XCR I’m curious as to who you would actually believe? There have been a multitude of studies establishing a benefit to mask usage. However, as soon as anyone quotes these studies it’s dismissed that they are just trying to push their own agendas. So, who is the expert that you would believe other than God-almighty descending down on a cloud to declare the efficacy of mask usage in slowing the spread of the virus?



That is the real insanity in all of this. No one seems to agree on who they will trust. Even if God showed up the atheists would then have a problem!

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

It should be more clear, but it appears to me the that it has been manipulated by the media, politicians, pundits, so called experts, media and anyone who wants camera time and will take a stand on one side or the other.

Lacking are any normal scientific and medical industry standard proof of anything being stated on either side of this debate. (generally cited are double-blind formal studies, not random data)

Lacking is credibility from any of the people making statements, only hearsay, innuendo, anecdotal evidence - not factual evidence, sincerity - only overly dramatic pleas to believe their belief(s)

Again I will say this is all very troubling, and not productive, and not effective except to divide and agitate the masses.

And I'm sorry, but any statements that NY, MA or anyone else got it right, are doing what needs to be done, are on the right side of the debate, etc are speculative and generally unfounded. Why are they better, because their numbers are in decline and the worst appears behind them. Maybe thats just because most of the people in those states have been exposed and the virus has run its course through the majority of the population there. Thats just as scientific as any blind belief that social distancing, masks, or anything else being done is working.

Without factual results from scientific studies we are still shooting in the dark, and no one can actually tell you whats going on.

So do face masks work or not, are they better than nothing, is it true they cant hurt,,, Anyone who says they have the answer is either misinformed, or uninformed, there is no actual industry standard scientific data to support any of what is being said. Its just as much a mess today as it was so many months ago.

Its shocking how much a mess this still is.

There's plenty of truth in what you write. BUT--you are demanding perfection from the experts and nothing from those who doubt them. On one side we have a bunch of public health officials and scientists doing everything they can to bring all the data and analysis possible to bear on a completely new situation. On the other side we have no real analysis or effort to do anything but open as quickly as possible. This is not a balanced debate--it's struggling scientists vs people who do not care about science.

[WinnisquamZ]

The same science that predicted California breaking off, a nuclear war, Arctic melting, ozone holes, recycling, y2k, WOMD, I did not have sex with that women, global warming, etc... and you wonder why we are skeptical


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[thinkxingu]

The last two posts got me thinking about: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Experti.../dp/0190469412

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

The same science that predicted California breaking off, a nuclear war, Arctic melting, ozone holes, recycling, y2k, WOMD, I did not have sex with that women, global warming, etc... and you wonder why we are skeptical


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Ummm, we're a bit far afield here, but you seem to be strangely misinformed...

California has had severe earthquakes, the Arctic is melting, there are or were ozone holes, the earth is warming. Certain Republicans lied about WOMD, and Bill Clinton lied about that woman; but those folks are politicians, not scientists.

Nothing in the preceding paragraph is even debatable. So I remain disappointed that you place obvious political gambits above scientists working in earnest.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Pam

I suspect the value of masks in preventing the spread of disease through airborne droplets has been well proven; otherwise, healthcare workers, dentists, etc. would not be wearing them. Plus, it's just common sense that if you cover your face, you're not exhaling germs as readily as if you were not wearing a mask. (Which is why we were all taught as children to cover our mouths when we coughed, sneezed, etc.) It's unfortunate that vulnerable people cannot just protect themselves. They must rely on other people to cover their faces. Therefore, we all wear masks in public and we're all protected. Easy and sensible. Hopefully this pandemic will not last forever, and everyone should do their part. Good citizenship and all that.

My mother inlaw was a 2 time cancer survivor who rabidly read the scientific studies, the medication warnings for everything she was told to take, she discussed and debated her treatment in great detail with her doctors and often did not follow their recommendations, and with all her problems lived well into her 80's by not being a sheep.

I hope to be that good some day.

As for cloth face masks being well proven as protection against infectious disease, not so fast says I.

I do not dispute that there is some potential value, but show me the actual scientific data. Its a simple request. But one no one seems to be sharing.

And why not?

Easy and sensible, again I say not so fast. I have some respiratory challenges that make it very difficult to wear a mask for very long, I do it were I need to, and I respect others preferences to have me wear a mask near them, but I do so at my discomfort and actual medical impact. And it totally wears me out having to breath through one.

So I respectfully say not always easy and sensible, and thats not even going into the concerns raised about breathing hours through a wet piece of cloth they contains what your body was designed to expel.

Again, happy to read and have a meaningful and adult no drama added discussion about any standard medical study about wearing home made cloth face masks for many hours and the benefits and impacts of such, just point me to it.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Hi XCR

Another good observation. Regarding workers being required to wear masks, that’s a condition of their employment. While on the clock, their time is not their own and they have to follow the employers rules in exchange for a paycheck. Their option is to quit and work somewhere else that doesn’t require masks.

My first job was as a drugstore cashier. I was philosophically opposed to ringing up people’s cigarettes but I realized that I was doing so in my capacity as an employee of the company, not in my own personal capacity. I didn’t like doing it but I did it because if the employment construct.

Regarding the What’s the Harm doctrine that many people have raised, its logically infirm. Extend that thinking logically and it applies to anything. For instance what’s the harm in wearing a mask from the time you leave the house until you return? What’s the harm in voluntarily driving a maximum of ten miles an hour to reduce the risk of a collision? Etc.

The better question than What’s the Harm is What’s the Use?


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A reasonable response and opinion, no argument from me.

But what you say will not end the debate.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by JEEPONLY

My first job was as as a drug store clerk.
Discreet gentlemen were allowed to step behind the counter and give the OK signal- circle formed with thumb and index finger, other three fingers up (nothing spoken).
The purchase?- three Trojans, bagged.
No need to ask, "What's the use?" (Even though I was only 16)

Now thats funny,,,

Glad to see someone here still has some sense of humor and not out for blood in every response.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

XCR I’m curious as to who you would actually believe? There have been a multitude of studies establishing a benefit to mask usage. However, as soon as anyone quotes these studies it’s dismissed that they are just trying to push their own agendas. So, who is the expert that you would believe other than God-almighty descending down on a cloud to declare the efficacy of mask usage in slowing the spread of the virus? Attachment 16249 That is the real insanity in all of this. No one seems to agree on who they will trust. Even if God showed up the atheists would then have a problem!

Well feel free to invite him down, it might actually help!

As for the multitude of studies, all I can say having not seen a single one of them nor heard anyone reference or quote one, if such exists, why for the first 2 full months did I almost never see any official wearing a mask. Time and time again they would get up to the podium with their team in tow and no one was social distancing or wearing masks or gloves. Only after months of press conferences did we see any official wearing masks.

And again I am not debating that there is some merit to masks, but is it the virus beating miracle some promote it as and what are the down side impacts.

Bottom line, what happened to the goal of just slowing the virus to prevent overloading the hospital ICU's, and do we now actually believe we can stop and kill the virus?

Is it actually reasonable to think that by simply wearing an mask for a few more months that the virus will go away and I wont ever more be at risk for it again? If thats truly the case, I might be onboard. But for the moment I still hear more conflicting and unsubstantiated and inconsistent information, which causes me to pause and ask what is really going on.

Yup, at this point I might just need god almighty to help me.

So I remain standing by for a visit, I truly welcome it and I promise to honestly report back any knowledge imparted to me. No reason for me to keep a thing like that to myself,,,

ATB

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

There's plenty of truth in what you write. BUT--you are demanding perfection from the experts and nothing from those who doubt them. On one side we have a bunch of public health officials and scientists doing everything they can to bring all the data and analysis possible to bear on a completely new situation. On the other side we have no real analysis or effort to do anything but open as quickly as possible. This is not a balanced debate--it's struggling scientists vs people who do not care about science.

No argument from me, except I am not demanding anything from anyone let alone perfection.

I am simply stating my observations and some opinion and frustration.

I stand by my statements that this is a mess,,,

ATB

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

Its shocking how much a mess this still is.

Standing by my above statements.

Sure would be nice if discussions about this matter did not result in personal attacks and we could all have and share and discuss different opinions but not resort to mudslinging.

Maybe thats asking too much of any online forum,,,

Well I keep hoping

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well feel free to invite him down, it might actually help!

As for the multitude of studies, all I can say having not seen a single one of them nor heard anyone reference or quote one, if such exists, why for the first 2 full months did I almost never see any official wearing a mask. Time and time again they would get up to the podium with their team in tow and no one was social distancing or wearing masks or gloves. Only after months of press conferences did we see any official wearing masks.

And again I am not debating that there is some merit to masks, but is it the virus beating miracle some promote it as and what are the down side impacts.

Bottom line, what happened to the goal of just slowing the virus to prevent overloading the hospital ICU's, and do we now actually believe we can stop and kill the virus?

Is it actually reasonable to think that by simply wearing an mask for a few more months that the virus will go away and I wont ever more be at risk for it again? If thats truly the case, I might be onboard. But for the moment I still hear more conflicting and unsubstantiated and inconsistent information, which causes me to pause and ask what is really going on.

Yup, at this point I might just need god almighty to help me.

So I remain standing by for a visit, I truly welcome it and I promise to honestly report back any knowledge imparted to me. No reason for me to keep a thing like that to myself,,,

ATB

I appreciate that response. I’ll invite the divine one for a visit but I’m pretty sure the divine one doesn’t listen to me! LOL I understand that it’s all quite maddening. I appreciate when we can have civil discussions on the topic. Be well!

P.S. if you were relying on our civic leaders to be the role models......I’m sorry but being a politician does not grant any kind of medical knowledge. I’ve never cast my vote for a politician based upon their medical expertise. Nor would I ask any of them to diagnose my illness.

[LoveLakeLife]

I would never expect anything I say to end the debate. There are few things that are not debatable and saying something is non-debatable doesn’t make it so.

A piece of legal trivium: President Clinton didn’t lie in that instance. He purposely used the term “sexual relations” not sex when he issued the denial. That term had a specific definition in that jurisdiction that did not include the act in which he had engaged. He is a lot of things, but stupid isn’t among them.


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[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I would never expect anything I say to end the debate. There are few things that are not debatable and saying something is non-debatable doesn’t make it so.

A piece of legal trivium: President Clinton didn’t lie in that instance. He purposely used the term “sexual relations” not sex when he issued the denial. That term had a specific definition in that jurisdiction that did not include the act in which he had engaged. He is a lot of things, but stupid isn’t among them.


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Every President has amazing advisors! They just need to listen!


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[Seaplane Pilot]

Here’s Mr. hypocrite himself, the one and only “First Pitch Fauci” at the Nationals -Yankees game last night. No mask, no distancing when he thinks nobody is watching. Apparently he couldn’t find any empty seats so he could spread out a bit. Similar to the video showing him taking his face diaper off when he thought the cameras turned off. What a phony.

On another subject, here’s a preview of what will soon be coming to a theatre near you:

https://www.fox4now.com/news/coronav...accine-mandate

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Here’s Mr. hypocrite himself, the one and only “First Pitch Fauci” at the Nationals -Yankees game last night. No mask, no distancing when he thinks nobody is watching. Apparently he couldn’t find any empty seats so he could spread out a bit. Similar to the video showing him taking his face diaper off when he thought the cameras turned off. What a phony.

On another subject, here’s a preview of what will soon be coming to a theatre near you:

https://www.fox4now.com/news/coronav...accine-mandate

Are those family members or people he's been exposed to? If so, distancing "requirements" wouldn't apply.

Also, he's addressed his mixed messages pretty clearly in the last month.

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[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Are those family members or people he's been exposed to? If so, distancing "requirements" wouldn't apply.

Also, he's addressed his mixed messages pretty clearly in the last month.

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I don't know the answer to your question. However, in the video link below you can see him take the mask off as soon as he thinks the cameras are off. I doubt everyone in that room is a family member.

https://www.facebook.com/AmericasVoi...9766395513240/

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I don't know the answer to your question. However, in the video link below you can see him take the mask off as soon as he thinks the cameras are off. I doubt everyone in that room is a family member.

https://www.facebook.com/AmericasVoi...9766395513240/

It would be great to see an image of the room through a wide angle lens/not zoomed in. Looking at that, it doesn't look like he's within 6' of anyone else, which is the guideline, right?

I like this article: https://petapixel.com/2020/05/04/the...h-photography/

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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Here’s Mr. hypocrite himself, the one and only “First Pitch Fauci” at the Nationals -Yankees game last night. No mask, no distancing when he thinks nobody is watching. Apparently he couldn’t find any empty seats so he could spread out a bit. Similar to the video showing him taking his face diaper off when he thought the cameras turned off. What a phony.

On another subject, here’s a preview of what will soon be coming to a theatre near you:

https://www.fox4now.com/news/coronav...accine-mandate

I think we got your stance on the Covid issue by now. You're not wearing a mask, all news about Covid is fake news, you don't believe in science, and you're not going to be one of the sheep. Maybe you should have a Covid party.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Here’s Mr. hypocrite himself, the one and only “First Pitch Fauci” at the Nationals -Yankees game last night. No mask, no distancing when he thinks nobody is watching. Apparently he couldn’t find any empty seats so he could spread out a bit. Similar to the video showing him taking his face diaper off when he thought the cameras turned off. What a phony.

On another subject, here’s a preview of what will soon be coming to a theatre near you:

https://www.fox4now.com/news/coronav...accine-mandate

Too funny,,,

Yup hypocrite, just like all the politicians; liars and cheats and thieves the whole lot,,,

And why is he even out at a place like that, isn't he one of the first people to tell everyone to stay home!

This is why we have people not believing anything said by officials/leaders, even the common sense things.

Why do these people NEVER lead by example,,,

Very disappointing,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I don't know the answer to your question. However, in the video link below you can see him take the mask off as soon as he thinks the cameras are off. I doubt everyone in that room is a family member.

https://www.facebook.com/AmericasVoi...9766395513240/

So frustrating,,,

You want to believe in these people, then you see this stuff and you cant help but wonder if you haven't been sold a load of horse****.

Very confusing and very disheartening to say the least.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

It would be great to see an image of the room through a wide angle lens/not zoomed in. Looking at that, it doesn't look like he's within 6' of anyone else, which is the guideline, right?

I like this article: https://petapixel.com/2020/05/04/the...h-photography/

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WRONG, thats when we are outside, when we are inside in common areas, they tell us wear masks all the time so as to not spread the virus all over the surfaces of areas other people will later use or come into contact with. And now they are saying not the original 3' or the later 6', but now up to 10'+. This is very troubling.

Also, just watch any of the press conferences, they all take their masks off at the podium, adjust the mic, touch the podium, and no one is cleaning up in between speakers.

What do they know that they are not telling us???

Or are they simply total hypocrites or liars.

Something is not right.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I think we got your stance on the Covid issue by now. You're not wearing a mask, all news about Covid is fake news, you don't believe in science, and you're not going to be one of the sheep. Maybe you should have a Covid party.

Well as one of the sheep who has been wearing masks and suffering because of it, I am not happy to see this do as I say, not as I do behavior.

Why is it ok for the so-called experts and politicians to NEVER follow the rules, but we must endure the restrictions at any impact to us.

As someone with respiratory problems, I have also been wearing masks as we are told we should and I have been suffering impacts in the form of greatly increased breathing problems from the masks and greatly increased rescue inhailer usage, and now they have me on an inhaleable steroid to try to offset the impact of wearing masks. This is not a good progression, and I dont look forward to greater problems such as needing one of those portable oxygen generators. So I seek the truth about the situation, and all I see are lies and BS like this.

To say I am not happy to becoming increasingly dependent on medications with side effects is an understatement, and then only to find the leaders and experts do not follow their own guidance is infuriating.

Not happy to be further damaging my health for the cause when these people are not leading by example,,,

Really not happy about all this,,,

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

WRONG, thats when we are outside, when we are inside in common areas, they tell us wear masks all the time so as to not spread the virus all over the surfaces of areas other people will later use or come into contact with. And now they are saying not the original 3' or the later 6', but now up to 10'+. This is very troubling.

Also, just watch any of the press conferences, they all take their masks off at the podium, adjust the mic, touch the podium, and no one is cleaning up in between speakers.

What do they know that they are not telling us???

Or are they simply total hypocrites or liars.

Something is not right.

The thing that is "not right" is this weird paranoia. The healthcare establishment has no incentive other than public health to push people to wear masks. You write as if Dr Fauci and virtually every other public health expert in the world has some master plan to use face masks against you. They are just trying to slow the spread of the virus

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I think we got your stance on the Covid issue by now. You're not wearing a mask, all news about Covid is fake news, you don't believe in science, and you're not going to be one of the sheep. Maybe you should have a Covid party.

You must have been a straight A student in school, because you sure do study and learn well. I'm impressed that you hit the nail on the head, except, however, for the "covid party". Here's your "rolleye" back at you.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well as one of the sheep who has been wearing masks and suffering because of it, I am not happy to see this do as I say, not as I do behavior.

Why is it ok for the so-called experts and politicians to NEVER follow the rules, but we must endure the restrictions at any impact to us.

As someone with respiratory problems, I have also been wearing masks as we are told we should and I have been suffering impacts in the form of greatly increased breathing problems from the masks and greatly increased rescue inhailer usage, and now they have me on an inhaleable steroid to try to offset the impact of wearing masks. This is not a good progression, and I dont look forward to greater problems such as needing one of those portable oxygen generators. So I seek the truth about the situation, and all I see are lies and BS like this.

To say I am not happy to becoming increasingly dependent on medications with side effects is an understatement, and then only to find the leaders and experts do not follow their own guidance is infuriating.

Not happy to be further damaging my health for the cause when these people are not leading by example,,,

Really not happy about all this,,,

Here's another hypocrite - Do as I say, not as I do:


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/122054...-wearing-mask/

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Here's another hypocrite - Do as I say, not as I do:


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/122054...-wearing-mask/

Honestly it appears to be most of the politicians, our Gov Baker in MA and the mayor of Boston are horrible embarrassments.

Mayor Walsh while commenting about all the people in Boston lighting fireworks all night during the riots and pandemic lockdown, he actually said on camera that he blamed the companies selling the the fireworks not the people lighting them, as they were exploiting the Boston based buyers by sending ads to Massachusetts. No blame for the people lighting the fuses, just for the people selling product. A fully legal product where they are sold, but apparently advertising to MA residents and selling to people from out of state should be a punishable offense and he has asked the AG to send a cease and desist letter to the offending companies.

I couldnt make that one up if I tried,,,

Between my respiratory problems, blood pressure problems, and stress from the media and politicians, I expect to keel over at any minute,,,

If tomorrow wasnt the weekend, I would seek stress relief in the form of some anchor time (with NO music) just about anywhere reasonably quiet at the lake. Unfortunately given the weekend is unbearably busy, I think it would only add to my stress,,, Maybe next week, if I last that long.

[Biggd]

I'm sure if you followed around everyone wearing a mask you could catch them with it off at some point.
If you're dining with friends or family members that you know are not infected you're not wearing a mask.
People that refuse to wear a mask no matter the surroundings are just selfish.
I wear a mask when I need to. I don't wear it 100% of the time if I can keep a safe distance from people I don't know.

[LoveLakeLife]

Expecting others to conform their behavior to a false norm is selfish. If someone believes that infected people whom he doesn’t know are deliberately walking around trying to get within six feet of him, then he should stay home and cower. Expecting someone with respiratory problems to wear a mask, thus putting their own health in peril as has been described, so that others can have a false sense of security, is the selfish act.


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[XCR-700]

Gov Baker on TV right now with his team and not one person yet has had a mask as he announces ADDITIONAL restrictions.

Very confusing, very frustrating.

[fatlazyless]

Plymouth town green, across from hardware store, Sunday, July 26, noon-7:

Today's July 24 LaDaSun has a page 12 report on a public get-together, public conversation for the no-mask non-believers who want to express their dislike for the Town of Plymouth's proposal to require masks to be worn in public places what with the 4000 students at Plymouth State University who will be returning in August.

Talk about dumb? You know, after watching someone sick in a hospital bed, hooked up to a ventilator, it should take about two seconds to realize the need for wearing a mask.

You know the Plymouth Walmart now requires masks, so you can still buy a shotgun there, but now you need to wear a mask to do it.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Talk about dumb? You know, after watching someone sick in a hospital bed, hooked up to a ventilator, it should take about two seconds to realize the need for wearing a mask.

What I find interesting is that in the past 50 years of true modern medicine, we NEVER wore masks for ANYTHING.

Then in one "2 second" moment of clarity, we all realized we all need masks,,,

Oh, except for politicials, experts, the media and select others,,,

After just watching Gov Baker, I feel certain all the wealthy and connected people are wearing their masks and not traveling and not throwing parties and social distancing as they are supposed to. NOT

So what do we actually know; COVID spreads fast, some people suffer very badly, some people die, most infected people dont even know they have it.

People with COVID get fast-tracked to ventilators, a large number of people who go on ventilators dont recover. People who are not put on ventilators actually seem to do better, much better than the people who were rushed to ventilators. Infection rates are up, but deaths are way down. No one agrees on what medications are working as treatments,,, We have a stated goal of "slowing the virus down" but when the infection numbers decline, we dont back off restrictions and let the virus run its course, as if we can beat it somehow,,,

Again, very confusing and NOT AT ALL CLEAR. No one is leading by example. The rules for us, dont apply to them. I really do wonder whats going on and losing all faith that we are being told the truth or the whole truth,,,

Sorry, but as someone who has been drinking the KoolAid, its starting to taste like Tang, and I am finding with every passing day I want Pepsi,,,

Still very frustrated and working toward angry.

[Mr. V]

As I predicted, maskes are now being used to project one's sense of fashion.

see: https://www.columbian.com/news/2020/...aled-by-masks/

My question: would it be seen as disrespectful to use the American flag as a mask?

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

People with COVID get fast-tracked to ventilators, a large number of people who go on ventilators dont recover. People who are not put on ventilators actually seem to do better, much better than the people who were rushed to ventilators.

I have a degree in Respiratory Therapy and worked in critical care for many years. The decision to place someone on a ventilator due to acute illness is never taken lightly. When a COVID patient is intubated, they are in extremus. So I don’t think it’s accurate to say people were fast-tracked to ventilators. Being on a ventilator is bad. It is physiologically abnormal and bad things happen to the lungs and body because of it. As a Respiratory Therapist, our goal was to do everything to avoid having to place a patient on a ventilator and once they were on, we did everything to get them off ASAP. Generally speaking, COVID patients do not fair well on ventilators. There are alternative means of oxygenating critically ill patients such as ECMO but this requires very specialized equipment and staff that can only be found in larger healthcare centers. Be well!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

I have a degree in Respiratory Therapy and worked in critical care for many years. The decision to place someone on a ventilator due to acute illness is never taken lightly. When a COVID patient is intubated, they are in extremus. So I don’t think it’s accurate to say people were fast-tracked to ventilators. Being on a ventilator is bad. It is physiologically abnormal and bad things happen to the lungs and body because of it. As a Respiratory Therapist, our goal was to do everything to avoid having to place a patient on a ventilator and once they were on, we did everything to get them off ASAP. Generally speaking, COVID patients do not fair well on ventilators. There are alternative means of oxygenating critically ill patients such as ECMO but this requires very specialized equipment and staff that can only be found in larger healthcare centers. Be well!

That is not speculation by me, it was reported extensively by so called experts in the medical field to the media in numerous interviews I watched.

The alleged expert doctors were claiming in these interviews that they learned over time that even though the patients blood oxygen levels were lower than they had ever seen in people still walking around, patients seemed to actually respond better to simple oxygen masks and other treatments, with better long term recovery than those who were intubated an hooked up to ventilators.

I know nothing about this other than what the experts said when interviewed on TV, so if you tell me they are wrong, I have no basis to dispute the matter with you and I will assume this is yet another example of bad reporting by the media and more BS experts shooting their mouths off when they dont know what they are talking about.

Which takes us back to what do we actually know, and it again seems that the conflicts and contradictions cast a dark cloud over the things many say are fact.

More frustrated with every passing day, and questioning what I actually know with every new tidbit of information.

The old saying of believe half of what you see and NONE of what you hear seems more appropriate every day. Or maybe it was said best on the old X-Files show, Trust No One

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

That is not speculation by me, it was reported extensively by so called experts in the medical field to the media in numerous interviews I watched.

The alleged expert doctors were claiming in these interviews that they learned over time that even though the patients blood oxygen levels were lower than they had ever seen in people still walking around, patients seemed to actually respond better to simple oxygen masks and other treatments, with better long term recovery than those who were intubated an hooked up to ventilators.

I know nothing about this other than what the experts said when interviewed on TV, so if you tell me they are wrong, I have no basis to dispute the matter with you and I will assume this is yet another example of bad reporting by the media and more BS experts shooting their mouths off when they dont know what they are talking about.

Which takes us back to what do we actually know, and it again seems that the conflicts and contradictions cast a dark cloud over the things many say are fact.

More frustrated with every passing day, and questioning what I actually know with every new tidbit of information.

The old saying of believe half of what you see and NONE of what you hear seems more appropriate every day. Or maybe it was said best on the old X-Files show, Trust No One

I didn’t think you were speculating. I saw the same media reports. A lot of this was “dumbed down” for the sake of reporting to the public. Be well!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The last two posts got me thinking about: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Experti.../dp/0190469412

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Relevant?



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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Gov Baker on TV right now with his team and not one person yet has had a mask as he announces ADDITIONAL restrictions.

Very confusing, very frustrating.

Confusing only to you. Governor Baker has united almost the entire state behind him in what has been an exceptionally effective effort to beat back the virus from it's pre-social isolation flare up. Whatever he's doing, it's been damn effective, and we should be grateful in NH as well

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

You must have been a straight A student in school, because you sure do study and learn well. I'm impressed that you hit the nail on the head, except, however, for the "covid party". Here's your "rolleye" back at you.

I took that same test that Trump took and aced it. My doctor told me "that's amazing, I never seen someone do so well on this test". I guess I should run for President.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Confusing only to you. Governor Baker has united almost the entire state behind him in what has been an exceptionally effective effort to beat back the virus from it's pre-social isolation flare up. Whatever he's doing, it's been damn effective, and we should be grateful in NH as well

"Beat back" are you kidding me, who told you that nonsense, we did a crap job as usual. Matter of fact, at 4th place in deaths per million population, very few states did worse,,, Florida with its current spike has still had far less deaths, but has triple the population of MA, and its population is much poorer and their medical facilities are considered not comparable to MA and yet they are doing way better than MA,,,

State Deaths/1M pop
New Jersey 1,783
New York 1,679
Connecticut 1,238
Massachusetts 1,233
Florida 263

Instead on wasting time on nonsense and drama in Massachusetts, they should have sent 10% of the hospital staff to the nursing homes to help those poor people who got garbage treatment.

Do you want to talk about horrific mishandling of this event, countless people died alone and afraid because even with PPE you were not allowed to visit them in the hospital even knowing there was little risk to some of the potential visitors and the patients were on their deathbeds. That was inexcusable, INEXCUSABLE.

This is not Ebola or the plague, its an aggressive respiratory virus, NOTHING more. There is no mystery. Its a flu, a very bad flu, and the flu kills 10's of thousands every year, but NEVER in the past did we panic and respond so ineffectively and so harmfully as we have this time. With every passing day I question what is really going on, but in no way am I confused about how well Massachusetts did managing this event, we got a big fat F.

As a 30 year resident of Massachusetts (this time) I can say with complete conviction and authority that Massachusetts is not an example to anyone for any reason except what not to do about anything, and Baker makes that bumbling fool Romney look like a genius. Bakers only saving grace is that he is marginally better than that total idiot Patrick that we suffered through.

Why any of us stays here in MA is a dumbfounding mystery, except that there are even worse places, such as RI, CT NY, NJ, CA just to name a few.

I would have relocated to NH 20+ years ago except that everything south of Concord is nothing but transplanted MA residents who brought there wrong headed and nonsensical ideology with them to totally corrupt the southern part of the state, and there is little work north of Concord.

NH north of Concord and any part of NH 30 years ago are not comparable to the current southern part of the state, but even that is starting to look way better than Massachusetts,,,

Just wait to see the exodus from CA, NY, NJ, and MA that is coming. Better hope too many dont jump to NH or they will price everyone out south of RT 302.

NEVER thought I would hear anyone praising Massachusetts for ANYTHING,,,

Praising Massachusetts is like some episode of the Twilight Zone where the universe works backwards,,,

[Biggd]

It's not a flu! The flu is seasonal and goes away when the weather warms up. This has not gone away, and has actually gotten worse in warmer climates like Florida and Texas. Other than the nursing home fiasco I think Ma has done good job and Baker is to be commended. If youre not happy in Ma I suggest you leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out! If you've lived in Ma for 30 years, as you say, your property hase increased in value 4 fold. You should do pretty well moving to NH.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

It's not a flu! The flu is seasonal and goes away when the weather warms up. This has not gone away, and has actually gotten worse in warmer climates like Florida and Texas. Other than the nursing home fiasco I think Ma has done good job and Baker is to be commended. If youre not happy in Ma I suggest you leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out!

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Not that Wikipedia should be a reference for anything, but:

Influenza, commonly known as "the flu", is an infectious disease caused by an influenza virus

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is an infectious disease caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)

So to some degree you are correct, the "flu" is not even just the flu, its an infectious disease in the same way COVID is an infectious disease.

Both with major respiratory impacts to humans.

Some times in America, we too commonly do not use the Queens English and tend to speak in American slang, hence the term flu, which should be limited to the Influenza virus.

But from laymans perspective the slang fits. Like gassing up the car even if it uses Diesel, or stepping on the gas even if its an electric car.

My apologies for the sloppy use of medical terminology.

As for my comments about Massachusetts, I stand by them. It is not a state to be held up as a role model example for anything.

And as for leaving, once I retire, I'll be gone to anywhere better so fast there is no chance of any door hitting anything, but I'm not particularly concerned, I seriously doubt that if Baker is still Governor that said door would even work,,, god knows it has not worked for the past 30 years I have been here.

If you are happy with Massachusetts, I am happy for you, please enjoy it, god knows someone should.

ATB

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Not that Wikipedia should be a reference for anything, but:

Influenza, commonly known as "the flu", is an infectious disease caused by an influenza virus

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is an infectious disease caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)

So to some degree you are correct, the "flu" is not even just the flu, its an infectious disease in the same way COVID is an infectious disease.

Both with major respiratory impacts to humans.

Some times in America, we too commonly do not use the Queens English and tend to speak in American slang, hence the term flu, which should be limited to the Influenza virus.

But from laymans perspective the slang fits. Like gassing up the car even if it uses Diesel, or stepping on the gas even if its an electric car.

My apologies for the sloppy use of medical terminology.

As for my comments about Massachusetts, I stand by them. It is not a state to be held up as a role model example for anything.

And as for leaving, once I retire, I'll be gone to anywhere better so fast there is no chance of any door hitting anything, but I'm not particularly concerned, I seriously doubt that if Baker is still Governor that said door would even work,,, god knows it has not worked for the past 30 years I have been here.

If you are happy with Massachusetts, I am happy for you, please enjoy it, god knows someone should.

ATB

I've been here for 65 years and Ma has been very good to me. Although I don't want to retire here, but as a business owner and multiple property owner I can't complain one bit. NH is a great to retire to but I would not have been as financial stable if I invested my money there as opposed to Ma. I have no negatives for Ma. I think it's the best it's ever been!

[Pricestavern]

I was going to write a snappy little retort about there being little risk to certain people. Then it really dawned on me. Why?

In the end, this is a pointless argument. At this point with people, it is a Belief, mask or no mask. You hear it all the time, "I believe/don't believe masks do anything." It has become dogma and people have become too invested in their 'position'. This has to be the 100th argument/conversation (arguversation?) I've witnessed and in not one of them did one side be persuaded. Not once.

The nation reels from what is going on. Whether the 'going on' is made up or not, the nation reels. There are deaths - overblown? undercounted? It's a hell of a thing to actually have to argue about how many deaths are 'enough'. They are still deaths.

I'll wear my mask and bid you a distant good day to those who will not wear a mask. I may roll my eyes up, but to what end? Just looking upwards, hoping for help.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by Pricestavern

I was going to write a snappy little retort about there being little risk to certain people. Then it really dawned on me. Why?



In the end, this is a pointless argument. At this point with people, it is a Belief, mask or no mask. You hear it all the time, "I believe/don't believe masks do anything." It has become dogma and people have become too invested in their 'position'. This has to be the 100th argument/conversation (arguversation?) I've witnessed and in not one of them did one side be persuaded. Not once.



The nation reels from what is going on. Whether the 'going on' is made up or not, the nation reels. There are deaths - overblown? undercounted? It's a hell of a thing to actually have to argue about how many deaths are 'enough'. They are still deaths.



I'll wear my mask and bid you a distant good day to those who will not wear a mask. I may roll my eyes up, but to what end? Just looking upwards, hoping for help.

AMEN! I’m tapping out as well. There was some reasonable discussion but now we’re calling COVID the flu!? It’s like calling your Boston Whaler, Formula, or SeaRay a kayak! What’s it matter, they’re all boats!? Be well all and Godspeed to the return of some normalcy to our great nation!

[fatlazyless]

VERMONT

http://www.vpr.org/post/governor-phi...ndate#stream/0

And, Vermont Gov Phil Scott is a Republican, so's it could definitely happen here in New Hampshire with Republican Gov Chris Sununu. Gov Sununu has said it's all about the numbers, and take a look at the numbers graph in the VPR-link.

"It's all about the numbers."

On August 1, New Hampshire will become a public space, no mask island, surrounded on all four sides by the mask up states of Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Quebec.

[ApS]

I've never been without my trusty mask. It's the wrong one for Covid-19, but good for sawdust, and wearing it keeps the spirits "up" of other would-be-sufferers.

Tucked under my glasses, they don't get steamed-up. It's "disinfected" by stretching it out on my dashboard. When exiting, the mask goes onto my forehead, and when entering a store, it's lowered appropriately.

While I thought masks were scarcely necessary, and I was (as far as I knew), healthy, I managed to produce a big wet sneeze in a grocery aisle. (Fortunately, that aisle was empty of customers, and I scurried around the corner).

The country most uniformly observant of mask-wearing is Japan, which is most affected by viruses from the continental mainland where these viruses evolve--and are spread every winter.

Trying to make independent-minded Americans obey such sensible precautions is like herding cats!

Politics has made it worse, as prolonging this pandemic definitely disrupts America's traditional "gearing" in significant ways. The information distressing so many on this forum is "noise" regurgitated to prolong the distress.

We'll get over this...Turn off your TV!

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

"Beat back" are you kidding me, who told you that nonsense, we did a crap job as usual. Matter of fact, at 4th place in deaths per million population, very few states did worse,,, Florida with its current spike has still had far less deaths, but has triple the population of MA, and its population is much poorer and their medical facilities are considered not comparable to MA and yet they are doing way better than MA,,,

As I'm sure you know (because frankly you seem a bit obsessed)--the Mass cases were early, driven by pre-isolation exposures, as I said in my original post. So I wish you wouldn't publish stuff that twists what I wrote.

Also, I'm pretty sure that you and almost everyone else on this Board knows that Mass has made huge progress against COVID-19 over the past couple of months, and that simultaneously Florida is getting absolutely crushed. We all saw just a day or two ago that the President was forced to cancel his convention in Floridas because the situation is so much worse now than when he moved it to Florida just a few weeks ago.

I think we'd all agree that the President was right to cancel--don't you think?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

As I'm sure you know (because frankly you seem a bit obsessed)--the Mass cases were early, driven by pre-isolation exposures, as I said in my original post. So I wish you wouldn't publish stuff that twists what I wrote.

Also, I'm pretty sure that you and almost everyone else on this Board knows that Mass has made huge progress against COVID-19 over the past couple of months, and that simultaneously Florida is getting absolutely crushed. We all saw just a day or two ago that the President was forced to cancel his convention in Floridas because the situation is so much worse now than when he moved it to Florida just a few weeks ago.

I think we'd all agree that the President was right to cancel--don't you think?

RE:"because frankly you seem a bit obsessed "

Well because frankly it is impacting me significantly, well mostly the restrictions, as I personally dont know anyone that has tested positive, fortunately. That said, I have personally suffered significant health problems but not because of being infected, but because of lack of exercise due to confinement, and the stress for listinging to the news way too much, and reading blogs like this, and the respiratory challenges I endure from wearing masks compounding old health problems.

Not to be a smart ass, but given my willingness to admit my obsession, is is safe to assume you also admit and consider yourself similarly "obsessed" as you also keep responding to this thread with just as much piss and vinegar as I do and several others? (Obsessed being your term, not mine, I simply use it for continuity, but only up to this point as it would not be my first choice, so this ends my use of the term in this post)

As for the impact of pre vs post isolation infection, I think the bigger concern is early vs late infection. The total number infected is of little concern to me, as I do not believe we have any (thats ANY!) ability to actually stop or beat viruses of this type and magnitude. We can slow them down to some degree, but I dont even think too much in reality, and just as soon as you let up on the restrictions, it will restart, so in my mind we are all only delaying the inevitable.

Not that thats a bad thing, it gives us time to learn how to treat the people infected, and that I believe should be the major strategy.

But at some point, restrictions will have to be lifted, and the infection will spread through the population (as it is in the south and west) I truly do not believe it will go away, it will lurk in isolated individuals, until such time as a larger group is exposed and it will just restart as if it were day one.

So for me, the total number of infected people is only marker or data point and not at all of the most concern. The number one value of concern is deaths, followed by people in ICU, and then those with long-term lingering effects.

Number of infected should not be our focus because you cannot stop it, but looking at the death rate per million population of NJ at 1784 vs FL at 269 and now you have an story of the medical industry learning how to manage a pandemic! Do we really care if FL has ~350,000 cases if most are asymptomatic? What should concern us most is the ~3400 people in ICU's and how best to treat them. So Bravo to the medical professional for turning this pandemic around and finding treatments that save lives. Thats real world winning against the virus!

If you FlyingScot truly believe we can stop and beat the virus and "win", I do not agree, but I am not going to belittle you or demean you for that opinion. I simply do not share your perspective.

As someone is following the rules as much as possible/reasonable, I sit here with my hair down to me shoulders, not having had a hair cut since February, with trusty albuterol inhaler at hand right alongside the mask that is causing me to need it, and a bottle of hand sanitizer in each of my cars and in the boat, and not believing any of it has or will have a significant impact on the overall outcome. I am simply drinking the KoolAid and not liking it, but being a dutiful citizen.

Truly hoping to end on a non-hostile note, even if we dont agree on some or all aspects of this matter.

I enjoy hearing and understanding others perspectives even when my opinion is in complete conflict.

I truly detest it when we devolve in these discussions to hostile responses and personal attacks.

ATB

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

RE:"because frankly you seem a bit obsessed "

Well because frankly it is impacting me significantly, well mostly the restrictions, as I personally dont know anyone that has tested positive, fortunately. That said, I have personally suffered significant health problems but not because of being infected, but because of lack of exercise due to confinement, and the stress for listinging to the news way too much, and reading blogs like this, and the respiratory challenges I endure from wearing masks compounding old health problems.

Not to be a smart ass, but given my willingness to admit my obsession, is is safe to assume you also admit and consider yourself similarly "obsessed" as you also keep responding to this thread with just as much piss and vinegar as I do and several others? (Obsessed being your term, not mine, I simply use it for continuity, but only up to this point as it would not be my first choice, so this ends my use of the term in this post)

As for the impact of pre vs post isolation infection, I think the bigger concern is early vs late infection. The total number infected is of little concern to me, as I do not believe we have any (thats ANY!) ability to actually stop or beat viruses of this type and magnitude. We can slow them down to some degree, but I dont even think too much in reality, and just as soon as you let up on the restrictions, it will restart, so in my mind we are all only delaying the inevitable.

Not that thats a bad thing, it gives us time to learn how to treat the people infected, and that I believe should be the major strategy.

But at some point, restrictions will have to be lifted, and the infection will spread through the population (as it is in the south and west) I truly do not believe it will go away, it will lurk in isolated individuals, until such time as a larger group is exposed and it will just restart as if it were day one.

So for me, the total number of infected people is only marker or data point and not at all of the most concern. The number one value of concern is deaths, followed by people in ICU, and then those with long-term lingering effects.

Number of infected should not be our focus because you cannot stop it, but looking at the death rate per million population of NJ at 1784 vs FL at 269 and now you have an story of the medical industry learning how to manage a pandemic! Do we really care if FL has ~350,000 cases if most are asymptomatic? What should concern us most is the ~3400 people in ICU's and how best to treat them. So Bravo to the medical professional for turning this pandemic around and finding treatments that save lives. Thats real world winning against the virus!

If you FlyingScot truly believe we can stop and beat the virus and "win", I do not agree, but I am not going to belittle you or demean you for that opinion. I simply do not share your perspective.

As someone is following the rules as much as possible/reasonable, I sit here with my hair down to me shoulders, not having had a hair cut since February, with trusty albuterol inhaler at hand right alongside the mask that is causing me to need it, and a bottle of hand sanitizer in each of my cars and in the boat, and not believing any of it has or will have a significant impact on the overall outcome. I am simply drinking the KoolAid and not liking it, but being a dutiful citizen.

Truly hoping to end on a non-hostile note, even if we dont agree on some or all aspects of this matter.

I enjoy hearing and understanding others perspectives even when my opinion is in complete conflict.

I truly detest it when we devolve in these discussions to hostile responses and personal attacks.

ATB

I haven't met too many people that live in Ma that have been upset with the way Baker has handled things so I think you're in the minority.
You sound like you are blaming Baker for your health issues. If you don't don't believe in the mitigation he's put out then, by all means, don"t watch TV and go about your business as usual. Maybe that will work better for you.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[ApS]

Excerpt:

(How "ruling by decree" happens...)

"For months now, every new day has brought new headlines about total COVID-19 infections, total deaths, and estimates put out by models claiming to predict how many deaths will soon occur.

These numbers have become the focal point of many politicians' careers. This is especially true for state governors and other politicians in executive positions, who now in this time of "emergency" essentially rule by decree.

New edicts are regularly issued by policymakers, allegedly based on an assessment of the all-important numbers."

More, and comments at Mises Institute:

https://mises.org/wire/covid-panic-l...r-way-politics

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I haven't met too many people that live in Ma that have been upset with the way Baker has handled things so I think you're in the minority.
You sound like you are blaming Baker for your health issues. If you don't don't believe in the mitigation he's put out then, by all means, don"t watch TV and go about your business as usual. Maybe that will work better for you.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

RE: I haven't met too many people that live in Ma that have been upset with the way Baker has handled things so I think you're in the minority.

Clearly we run in different circles, as I am literally surrounded by the "Faker Baker" crew and I am considered very centrist by my friends and I'm on the fringe or often outside of their sometimes extreme positions. The "silent minority" or very conservative people in MA are in fact not so much a minority, they appear to just be waiting for the right moment for another Boston Tea Party. I fear it will be ugly when it happens, as it will be so shocking to the extremest on the other side that have enjoyed power so long, that they will be in utter turmoil. A better solution would be a reasonable middle ground, but I dont see it. Eventually one of the movements like the sanctuary city efforts or similar light a fuse that will wreak havoc on Massachusetts violently dividing the state and ending badly for all,,, Well thats my doom and gloom crystal ball prediction. I hope to be retired and somewhere much better before it happens.

As for the comment about blaming Baker for my health problems, well truth is he didnt start the mask movement and even resisted it for a while, but I do think overall he has made a royal mess of the pandemic. Way too many things went way too wrong under his watch. I just dont see him as effective. But he is part of a series of bigger problems. Law abiding citizens in Massachusetts have a much harder time legally buying guns than criminals AND WE PAY MORE! Undocumented AND illegal aliens can get drivers licenses, and in Cambridge even if they dont have a license, they dont stop them from driving, they tell them to go home and park the car,,, But god forbid my license was expired and I got caught driving, the car would be towed, I would get a fine, and my insurance would go up,,, Trouper-gate was an appalling breach of public trust, and what has come of it, virtually nothing. Corruption across Massachusetts revels Chicago, Atlanta, Baltimore, NY etc, and again all we do is pass laws restrict citizens and tax them more to pay for the corruption. These are just a few examples of so many problems that should and could be better. And I see Baker as either contributing to the problem, or unable to muster the leadership needed to address them.

Your are clearly very happy with how Massachusetts runs and with Bakers leadership, and I am glad you are happy. Its very tough living somewhere you dont like or even respect what they do or their standards. But until my youngest is done with high school I dont want to uproot him and separate him from all his friends. Once he is college bound, I hope to be out of Massachusetts as fast as humanly possible.

You dont have to like anything I am saying or agree with any of my opinions and observations, but at least please respect that I am just being honest with you. Too many play stupid games on these forums for their own quirky and weird reasons, I am as truthful as possible and just have my own opinions that may differ than yours.

I will say again, its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

ATB

[Biggd]

Wow, thankfully we clearly don't run in the same circles.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

RE: I haven't met too many people that live in Ma that have been upset with the way Baker has handled things so I think you're in the minority.

Clearly we run in different circles, as I am literally surrounded by the "Faker Baker" crew and I am considered very centrist by my friends and I'm on the fringe or often outside of their sometimes extreme positions. The "silent minority" or very conservative people in MA are in fact not so much a minority, they appear to just be waiting for the right moment for another Boston Tea Party. I fear it will be ugly when it happens, as it will be so shocking to the extremest on the other side that have enjoyed power so long, that they will be in utter turmoil. A better solution would be a reasonable middle ground, but I dont see it. Eventually one of the movements like the sanctuary city efforts or similar light a fuse that will wreak havoc on Massachusetts violently dividing the state and ending badly for all,,, Well thats my doom and gloom crystal ball prediction. I hope to be retired and somewhere much better before it happens.

As for the comment about blaming Baker for my health problems, well truth is he didnt start the mask movement and even resisted it for a while, but I do think overall he has made a royal mess of the pandemic. Way too many things went way too wrong under his watch. I just dont see him as effective. But he is part of a series of bigger problems. Law abiding citizens in Massachusetts have a much harder time legally buying guns than criminals AND WE PAY MORE! Undocumented AND illegal aliens can get drivers licenses, and in Cambridge even if they dont have a license, they dont stop them from driving, they tell them to go home and park the car,,, But god forbid my license was expired and I got caught driving, the car would be towed, I would get a fine, and my insurance would go up,,, Trouper-gate was an appalling breach of public trust, and what has come of it, virtually nothing. Corruption across Massachusetts revels Chicago, Atlanta, Baltimore, NY etc, and again all we do is pass laws restrict citizens and tax them more to pay for the corruption. These are just a few examples of so many problems that should and could be better. And I see Baker as either contributing to the problem, or unable to muster the leadership needed to address them.

Your are clearly very happy with how Massachusetts runs and with Bakers leadership, and I am glad you are happy. Its very tough living somewhere you dont like or even respect what they do or their standards. But until my youngest is done with high school I dont want to uproot him and separate him from all his friends. Once he is college bound, I hope to be out of Massachusetts as fast as humanly possible.

You dont have to like anything I am saying or agree with any of my opinions and observations, but at least please respect that I am just being honest with you. Too many play stupid games on these forums for their own quirky and weird reasons, I am as truthful as possible and just have my own opinions that may differ than yours.

I will say again, its interesting to see how divisive this matter is, and at such a personal level.

ATB

I think it’s sad that you are living your life in a place that you dislike so much. All these difficult years that you’ll never get back.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

I think it’s sad that you are living your life in a place that you dislike so much. All these difficult years that you’ll never get back.

Winilyme, I couldn’t say it better....life is way too short to be in such an unhappy place, both mentally and physically. Wasting your days, months, years in a place you detest so much is terrible, and each wasted minute is gone forever. I hope this individual has the gumption to make a change.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Winilyme, I couldn’t say it better....life is way too short to be in such an unhappy place, both mentally and physically. Wasting your days, months, years in a place you detest so much is terrible, and each wasted minute is gone forever. I hope this individual has the gumption to make a change.

All things are easy in a perfect world, but in our world with 2 full time working professionals, relocating and leaving our current jobs behind is not so easy.

And both my wife and I were children of gypsys, and were moved around so many times we cant count the houses we lived in and we both agreed that if there was any way possible, we would not subject our children to that and we wanted our children to live in the same place from 1st grade until the end of high school. I am proud to say we are now within 3 years of the end of that journey.

Once our second son is out of high school, we are gone!

We were recently very tempted by a house in Gilford, that checked all the boxes, but it only took a moment to know what the impact to a sensitive kid would be to relocate him 3 years from graduation and from all the friends he has known since preschool.

Given my last vacation was like 9 years ago, and the one before that maybe 7 years more, and that I have never taken 2 weeks in a row, I think I can endure even Massachusetts for 3 more years. Maybe a vacation in between would help, but I'm not promising,,,

Some may disagree with our values and goals, but my wife and I do EVERYTHING for the kids. We are trying very hard to give them better lives than we had as kids, and so far we have pulled it off. So I dont see myself giving up when we are so close to the end.

Hoping wherever we end up, will be a place the kids will want to visit often, and so far they both love NH and its a place we all enjoy.

Living in Massachusetts has been a means to an end that we gladly endured for the outcome we desire.

So shed no tears for me, I seek no pity.

TICK, Tick, tick,,,