West Alton Sandbar - Marine Patrol Trouble

tbutler · 07-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APIMIS

My concern is that with all the homes being built on the shore lines can they just arbitrarily designate no rafting zones as they call it whenever homeowners chose not to share public waters with the boating public which would further restrict anchoring and swimming areas for families.

The area on the northwest side of the channel into Small Cove has been
designated no-rafting for many years. So the enforcement action may
have been instigated by a landowner's complaint, but the NR designation
has been there a long time.

Airwaves · 07-10-2006, 01:11 AM

APIMIS:

Quote:

As for the going out to talk to the MP’s I was sent out there to receive my ticket for being anchored in a no rafting either under the 150 foot mark or being to close to other boats. I’m still not sure which? The MP that gave me my ticket was not clear as to which one I was being cited for.

What?

The MP that gave you a ticket didn't know why?

If you were anchored in the area that we have been discussing then you were probably in a restricted area. Property owners may have called the MP to enforce the rules, but if they (MP) are going to start handing out tickets (fines) then they had best know what they are for!

If the area you were in was not designated a no rafting zone and the MP deployed 5 vessels at the whim of property owners, well then we have a serious issue!

Bottom line, the ticket needs to say what rule you violated. Does it?

billhurley · 07-10-2006, 07:49 AM

JRC,
That land is owned by the owners of West Alton Marina. I know they have not complained. I am not sure what home owner did.

Lakewinniboater · 07-10-2006, 11:10 AM

I too am a West Alton Marina client and have been for some years. Although, I do not see them calling and complaining..... you never know.

I do know that they make it clear to their clients that they may use the land behind the sand bar....they also make it clear that we are to tell people using the land that they MUST be part of West Alton Marina to use it.

I have seen MANY MANY people utilizing the land for their dogs to relieve themselves and their children to play in the sand. If it was my land, I wouldn't be all that happy either. The owners do try to be amicable and helpful but you never know.... maybe they got annoyed with the blantant disrespect for their requests.

Rayhunt · 07-10-2006, 02:11 PM

Im embarrassed to say ive never been there .. I know its a NRZ and one of the reasons ive never stayed.. Are there houses along the shore in the NRZ ?? I realy think MP should have better things to do ?

SixStars · 07-10-2006, 04:11 PM

The MP was there again on Sunday. I noticed they had a list they were looking at and appeared to by checking registration numbers. I have no idea why they were doing this. Anyone else have any clue what they might have been doing? They made a number of boats move and appeared to hand out several tickets.

topwater · 07-10-2006, 05:06 PM

WOW, It appears that no matter what the Marine Patrol does is WRONG. They can't seem to please any of you. If they weren't able to do what they did, then there's a issue, but don't Pi## and Moan here, call someone and do something about it, don't wait for the other guy, step up to the plate!!! I don't believe I've EVER heard one good thing about MP on this forum, its always negative negitive negitive, sounds like bad attitudes being brought into the state. DEAL with it, if your not enjoying it, pull up anchor and go have a ice cream somewhere. I have no connection at all with the MP, so please don't GO OFF on that tangient

jrc · 07-10-2006, 07:23 PM

Re: checking registration numbers

Just guessing, but I think if you got a "please move" and no ticket on Saturday and come Sunday you're are back in the same spot, you'll be sorry.

Just like that warning the State Police gave me on Thursday on RT 93. Next time I'll be paying.

John A. Birdsall · 07-10-2006, 08:49 PM

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

Lakewinniboater · 07-10-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

The owners of the Marina own the beach and land on BOTH sides of the channel and much of the Mauhaut Shores area.

upthesaukee · 07-10-2006, 10:53 PM

This area has been a no rafting zone since before my Dad passed away, and that was in 1988. I'm guessing that it would have been more in the early to mid 80's. When on vacation, we would go down to the "Sand Bar" and would have anywhere from 2 to as many as 8 or 10 boats rafted together. Everyone had kids or grandkids, no stereos blaring, and a respect for each others boats and the neighboring boats and landowners. When the no rafting came in, the marine patrol would come by on a regurlar basis, and were quite firm but fair, and tell you if it appeared the boats were too close. They didn't particularly care who was there first, just wanted to see the proper space between boats. Most boaters would be accommadating, a few gave out the lip service, and got repaid with a ticket.

We keep our boat at West Alton, and aside from an early in the day swim, or very late in the evening, we prefer to go out to deeper water and swim. A little more difficult with the grandkids, but we make do. Don't have to put up with someone trying to run over your anchor rope that way.

jrc · 07-11-2006, 12:21 PM

I don't think there is any question that there has been a no rafting zone there for many years and that the MP have the right and duty to enforce that.

My only question of the MP is priorities. Police are always balancing where to use their limited resources. Was this the best place to use five boats and ten officers on a busy weekend afternoon? There was almost zero chance of someone being injured due to rafting. Was that choice made because of a squeaky wheel land owner?

Most of my criticism and curiosity is about no rafting zones in general. What is there purpose, is there a safety rational or is just an annoyance factor? How is it decided where to put them? How do the extra rules get added? Can the zones be removed? Can the rules be changed? It's one thing to have a no rafting zone, it's another to use that law to invent a no anchoring zone.

Paugus Bay Resident · 07-11-2006, 04:55 PM

My concern is the inconsistent (seemingly arbitrary) enforcement of regulations. I've been going to Small's Cove for a long time. One week the MP will cruise through the sandbar (last year on a Jet Ski) and not do anything. The next week they bring in an armada. Sometimes I get the feeling that even they aren't sure what they're enforcing.

I think one of the MPs biggest issues is credibility. The inconsistencies don't just apply to Smalls Cove, but enforcement on the lake in general. It also doesn't seem that resources are being deployed in a way that maximizes safety on the lake. My HO, your's may vary.

Dave R · 07-12-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Most of my criticism and curiosity is about no rafting zones in general. What is there purpose, is there a safety rational or is just an annoyance factor? How is it decided where to put them? How do the extra rules get added? Can the zones be removed? Can the rules be changed? It's one thing to have a no rafting zone, it's another to use that law to invent a no anchoring zone.

I would bet that the purpose is just to avoid a disturbance of the peace and I'm certain there is a history of loud and obnoxious raft-ups that led to the rules.

While the ends are acceptable, the means kinda stink, in my opinion. NRZs "punish" everyone indiscriminately. To me, the ability for the MP to tell me that I cannot allow two boats to safely and quietly tie up to my boat in certain areas is preposterous. I doubt the NRZ rules would stand up in court if one were to push it. Maybe I should ask my Senator to sponsor a bill. Perehaps we could tackle the absurd "no overnight anchoring" rule as well...

My thoughts: If you plan to hang out at a NRZ sandbar, get there early, anchor legally, and take digital photos of the space around you. That way, if the MP shows up and hassles you for being to close to other boats, you can show them you were there first. May not work, but it's better than just getting angry about someone just trying to enforce the law.

Mee-n-Mac · 07-12-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

{snip} I doubt the NRZ rules would stand up in court if one were to push it. Maybe I should ask my Senator to sponsor a bill. Perehaps we could tackle the absurd "no overnight anchoring" rule as well...

If you can regulate parking and public gatherings on land I can't see any legal reason you can't do the equivalent on the water. Like I've said on this topic before the existing NRZ rules try to balance the desires of the boating public and the shorefront owners. Neither comes out a clear winner IMO. I'd worry your Senator might follow prior thoughts re: making the entire lake a NRZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

My thoughts: If you plan to hang out at a NRZ sandbar, get there early, anchor legally, and take digital photos of the space around you. That way, if the MP shows up and hassles you for being to close to other boats, you can show them you were there first. May not work, but it's better than just getting angry about someone just trying to enforce the law.

This is an interesting thought. If you're ticketed for being too closely spaced how does anyone know it was you that initiated the offending action ? It's one thing to be ticketed for anchoring too close to shore, that's entirely under your control, but if someone else encroaches on "your space" in an NRZ ?? I wonder what the court ruling would be if such a ticket were contested. Time to form that PAC (R.O.A.R.) I guess.

Usually I think the MP just tells the boats to move rather than issue tickets in these cases.

Alton Bay Resident · 07-12-2006, 12:13 PM

Here's a thought… on any popular sandbar, establish mooring balls for the season. Properly spaced for between boats and from shore. If you don't get to the sandbar early enough, you have to wait till a 'spot' opens up. It's along the same lines as getting a public dock on the lake, limited number of spaces.

This e would avoid someone coming late and encroaching in your space. It would also take all the guesswork our for boaters and let everyone relax.

SIKSUKR · 07-12-2006, 02:18 PM

Great idea on the moorings.A friend was ticketed once in Braun for the exact same scenario after being there before others.I believe he wrote a letter and the ticket was dropped.I found a similar situation at the parking meters in front of my building.There were several motorcycles parked in one spot and in another a car was obviously parked in the spot first and then a motorcycle parked behind it.I asked the meterlady if she would ticket them and she said no because they could not prove who was there first.Sounds like the MP would have to have the same thought process and just have people move apart.

Phantom · 07-12-2006, 02:43 PM

If I'm not mistaken -- having mooring balls out is EXACTLY what they do at Lake George, NY. No Ball - No Anchoring!

Jonas Pilot · 07-12-2006, 06:14 PM

Good Idea on the mooring balls A Bay Res!

Airwaves · 07-12-2006, 10:17 PM

The down side to mooring balls that I can see are:

Who puts them out, takes them in and maintains them? $$$

What happens when someone ties up to the mooring ball in front of your cottage that you have a permit for and use for your own boat?

jrc · 07-12-2006, 10:40 PM

Although I love the idea of mooring balls, it will never happen. Airwaves is right, there is no financial reason for mooring balls at a sandbar. The towns build docks because it helps the local business.

secondcurve · 07-12-2006, 11:05 PM

I have a question for those on the board who want more marine patrol officers to "control" the go fast boaters, mooring balls to solve the rafting issues and more money spent to keep the lake water clean, and so forth. How are we to pay for these services?

07-10-2006, 07:49 AM	#3
billhurley Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: St. Augustine FL. Posts: 86 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	JRC, That land is owned by the owners of West Alton Marina. I know they have not complained. I am not sure what home owner did. Last edited by billhurley; 07-18-2006 at 03:01 PM.

07-10-2006, 11:10 AM	#4
Lakewinniboater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Westford, MA and Alton Bay, NH Posts: 225 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	West Alton Marina I too am a West Alton Marina client and have been for some years. Although, I do not see them calling and complaining..... you never know. I do know that they make it clear to their clients that they may use the land behind the sand bar....they also make it clear that we are to tell people using the land that they MUST be part of West Alton Marina to use it. I have seen MANY MANY people utilizing the land for their dogs to relieve themselves and their children to play in the sand. If it was my land, I wouldn't be all that happy either. The owners do try to be amicable and helpful but you never know.... maybe they got annoyed with the blantant disrespect for their requests. __________________ Wendy "Wasn't Me!"

07-10-2006, 02:11 PM	#5
Rayhunt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gilford NH Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rafting Im embarrassed to say ive never been there .. I know its a NRZ and one of the reasons ive never stayed.. Are there houses along the shore in the NRZ ?? I realy think MP should have better things to do ?

07-10-2006, 04:11 PM	#6
SixStars Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More MP enforcement on Sunday The MP was there again on Sunday. I noticed they had a list they were looking at and appeared to by checking registration numbers. I have no idea why they were doing this. Anyone else have any clue what they might have been doing? They made a number of boats move and appeared to hand out several tickets.

07-10-2006, 10:53 PM	#11
upthesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 5,609 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 2,479 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,084 Posts	Been NRZ for about 20 years. This area has been a no rafting zone since before my Dad passed away, and that was in 1988. I'm guessing that it would have been more in the early to mid 80's. When on vacation, we would go down to the "Sand Bar" and would have anywhere from 2 to as many as 8 or 10 boats rafted together. Everyone had kids or grandkids, no stereos blaring, and a respect for each others boats and the neighboring boats and landowners. When the no rafting came in, the marine patrol would come by on a regurlar basis, and were quite firm but fair, and tell you if it appeared the boats were too close. They didn't particularly care who was there first, just wanted to see the proper space between boats. Most boaters would be accommadating, a few gave out the lip service, and got repaid with a ticket. We keep our boat at West Alton, and aside from an early in the day swim, or very late in the evening, we prefer to go out to deeper water and swim. A little more difficult with the grandkids, but we make do. Don't have to put up with someone trying to run over your anchor rope that way. __________________ I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!

07-10-2006, 05:06 PM	#7
topwater Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 302 Thanks: 85 Thanked 116 Times in 48 Posts	WOW, It appears that no matter what the Marine Patrol does is WRONG. They can't seem to please any of you. If they weren't able to do what they did, then there's a issue, but don't Pi## and Moan here, call someone and do something about it, don't wait for the other guy, step up to the plate!!! I don't believe I've EVER heard one good thing about MP on this forum, its always negative negitive negitive, sounds like bad attitudes being brought into the state. DEAL with it, if your not enjoying it, pull up anchor and go have a ice cream somewhere. I have no connection at all with the MP, so please don't GO OFF on that tangient

07-10-2006, 07:23 PM	#8
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Re: checking registration numbers Just guessing, but I think if you got a "please move" and no ticket on Saturday and come Sunday you're are back in the same spot, you'll be sorry. Just like that warning the State Police gave me on Thursday on RT 93. Next time I'll be paying.

07-10-2006, 08:49 PM	#9
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there? When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

07-11-2006, 12:21 PM	#12
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I don't think there is any question that there has been a no rafting zone there for many years and that the MP have the right and duty to enforce that. My only question of the MP is priorities. Police are always balancing where to use their limited resources. Was this the best place to use five boats and ten officers on a busy weekend afternoon? There was almost zero chance of someone being injured due to rafting. Was that choice made because of a squeaky wheel land owner? Most of my criticism and curiosity is about no rafting zones in general. What is there purpose, is there a safety rational or is just an annoyance factor? How is it decided where to put them? How do the extra rules get added? Can the zones be removed? Can the rules be changed? It's one thing to have a no rafting zone, it's another to use that law to invent a no anchoring zone.

07-11-2006, 04:55 PM	#13
Paugus Bay Resident Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Gilmanton, NH Posts: 754 Thanks: 136 Thanked 93 Times in 51 Posts	My concern is the inconsistent (seemingly arbitrary) enforcement of regulations. I've been going to Small's Cove for a long time. One week the MP will cruise through the sandbar (last year on a Jet Ski) and not do anything. The next week they bring in an armada. Sometimes I get the feeling that even they aren't sure what they're enforcing. I think one of the MPs biggest issues is credibility. The inconsistencies don't just apply to Smalls Cove, but enforcement on the lake in general. It also doesn't seem that resources are being deployed in a way that maximizes safety on the lake. My HO, your's may vary.

07-12-2006, 12:13 PM	#16
Alton Bay Resident Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Establish Boat Parking Here's a thought… on any popular sandbar, establish mooring balls for the season. Properly spaced for between boats and from shore. If you don't get to the sandbar early enough, you have to wait till a 'spot' opens up. It's along the same lines as getting a public dock on the lake, limited number of spaces. This e would avoid someone coming late and encroaching in your space. It would also take all the guesswork our for boaters and let everyone relax.

07-12-2006, 02:18 PM	#17
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Who's first? Great idea on the moorings.A friend was ticketed once in Braun for the exact same scenario after being there before others.I believe he wrote a letter and the ticket was dropped.I found a similar situation at the parking meters in front of my building.There were several motorcycles parked in one spot and in another a car was obviously parked in the spot first and then a motorcycle parked behind it.I asked the meterlady if she would ticket them and she said no because they could not prove who was there first.Sounds like the MP would have to have the same thought process and just have people move apart. __________________ SIKSUKR

07-12-2006, 02:43 PM	#18
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Berlin, Ma / Gilford Posts: 1,934 Thanks: 450 Thanked 605 Times in 341 Posts	Mooring Balls If I'm not mistaken -- having mooring balls out is EXACTLY what they do at Lake George, NY. No Ball - No Anchoring!

07-12-2006, 06:14 PM	#19
Jonas Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365 Posts: 1,686 Thanks: 1,047 Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts	Good Idea on the mooring balls A Bay Res!

07-12-2006, 10:17 PM	#20
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	The down side to mooring balls that I can see are: Who puts them out, takes them in and maintains them? $$$ What happens when someone ties up to the mooring ball in front of your cottage that you have a permit for and use for your own boat?

07-12-2006, 10:40 PM	#21
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Although I love the idea of mooring balls, it will never happen. Airwaves is right, there is no financial reason for mooring balls at a sandbar. The towns build docks because it helps the local business.

07-12-2006, 11:05 PM	#22
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,128 Thanks: 1,349 Thanked 564 Times in 291 Posts	I have a question for those on the board who want more marine patrol officers to "control" the go fast boaters, mooring balls to solve the rafting issues and more money spent to keep the lake water clean, and so forth. How are we to pay for these services?