Masks and "the cult of selfishness"

[thinkxingu]

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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We don't have a national plan with a shared sense of purpose and objectives. Instead there is a jumble of messages which often contradict each other. This allows many to turn the debate from one based on science and health to politics and Constitutional rights.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Garcia

We don't have a national plan with a shared sense of purpose and objectives. Instead there is a jumble of messages which often contradict each other. This allows many to turn the debate from one based on science and health to politics and Constitutional rights.

Last I checked, New York accounts for half of our Covid-19 casualties. It's not too long a shot to say, they messed up!

Extending sea-to-sea, state governments are charged with an appropriate actions by those individual states. Local governments also play a part. (Montana is bigger than Germany).

BTW: A German minister said today, that deaths from "other causes" will handily exceed Covid-19 deaths--especially in Africa. NGOs have drawn back from Africa to assist the home country.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by ApS

Last I checked, New York accounts for half of our Covid-19 casualties. It's not too long a shot to say, they messed up!

Extending sea-to-sea, state governments are charged with an appropriate actions by those individual states. Local governments also play a part. (Montana is bigger than Germany).

BTW: A German minister said today, that deaths from "other causes" will handily exceed Covid-19 deaths--especially in Africa. NGOs have drawn back from Africa to assist the home country.

You missed my point. A national policy does not need to be a once size fits all (or one size fits none) but we have leadership at the national level that contradicts itself and its own departments and experts. That's what I was getting at.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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Have no idea if it's true or not but heard that some hospitals have reported deaths from other causes as COVID. Jimmy Kimmil joked on his show that if you got shot dead in the street in New York it would be reported as COVID

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Have no idea if it's true or not but heard that some hospitals have reported deaths from other causes as COVID. Jimmy Kimmil joked on his show that if you got shot dead in the street in New York it would be reported as COVID

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

They say we've hit 200,000 deaths. Even if that is over stated by double it's still too many.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

I’m not getting into this but I completely disagree. All that can be said if the 200k that have died tested positive for COVID not that it was the direct cause of death.

My sister is in the medical field in NY along with several of my clients. Many including cancer heart attacks and cancer victim deaths were labeled Covid just because they tested positive. Remember a hospital received 30k from the fed for every “Covid” death. The numbers are severely skewed and extremely misleading.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m not getting into this but I completely disagree. All that can be said if the 200k that have died tested positive for COVID not that it was the direct cause of death.

My sister is in the medical field in NY along with several of my clients. Many including cancer heart attacks and cancer victim deaths were labeled Covid just because they tested positive. Remember a hospital received 30k from the fed for every “Covid” death. The numbers are severely skewed and extremely misleading.


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Oh, now I understand--there is a nationwide conspiracy among doctors to misstate the cause of death so that their employer can collect. These doctors don't mind filing false claims, committing insurance fraud, lying to families, etc.

Plus, it's a complete mystery as to how hundreds of thousands of additional people have died this year compared to last. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ess_deaths.htm

Thank you for clarifying.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Oh, now I understand--there is a nationwide conspiracy among doctors to misstate the cause of death so that their employer can collect. These doctors don't mind filing false claims, committing insurance fraud, lying to families, etc.

Plus, it's a complete mystery as to how hundreds of thousands of additional people have died this year compared to last. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ess_deaths.htm

Thank you for clarifying.

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS



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[jbolty]

I well remember one of the most recent scandals in the VA system. One of the things the hospital management was judged on was how long people waited for appointments so if a request was in the system for too long they just deleted it to improve their metrics. So sure, people will create phony documents and lie about things for money or power or status and it does not have to be a conspiracy just random disconnected groups given incentive to cheat.

And don't forget there were some 300 labs in Florida that reported only positive test results showing a 100% rate. Whatever happened to that? I never heard any more about it and who knows if the numbers were corrected but I do know it was about the time everyones hair was on fire over the "surging" numbers in Florida.

https://www.wfla.com/8-on-your-side/...te-data-shows/

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS


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Why don’t you post the link to facts, as FlyingScot has? Did you read the article in his link?


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Why don’t you post the link to facts, as FlyingScot has? Did you read the article in his link?


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My fact are from first hand experience not from the press.

But here are some from the CDC. This is what a whole country was shut down for, maybe we should shut down the fast food and tobacco industry while we are at it as they kill more people than Covid.




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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS


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I stand corrected again. I had mistakenly assumed that your recent break from publishing ridiculous stuff about covid was because you realized how mistaken all your posts in spring had been. I figured that since the virus did infect more than 8 or 10 people, was not gone by Easter, or eradicated by a vaccine in July; that you realized how misled you had been.

I hope you'll take a deep breath, go back and read all your posts, and then compare them to what actually happened.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I stand corrected again. I had mistakenly assumed that your recent break from publishing ridiculous stuff about covid was because you realized how mistaken all your posts in spring had been. I figured that since the virus did infect more than 8 or 10 people, was not gone by Easter, or eradicated by a vaccine in July; that you realized how misled you had been.

I hope you'll take a deep breath, go back and read all your posts, and then compare them to what actually happened.

Absolutely because you know what happened and the rest of us don’t. Sure I bow to your superior intelligence and intellect. You need to sift through the media nonsense you are buying into.

There simply just were not 209k deaths DIRECTLY due to Covid.

Even if there were in a country of 300k it is ludicrous to shut down the economy and education system.

Again take precautions wear a mask keep a distance but to close a country is crazy.

The collateral damage of the economy and our children in the future is incalculable.

Your have you opinion I have mine. Done!



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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Absolutely because you know what happened and the rest of us don’t. Sure I bow to your superior intelligence and intellect. You need to sift through the media nonsense you are buying into.

There simply just were not 209k deaths DIRECTLY due to Covid.


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No need to get nasty or quibble about whether it's 209K, 200K, or whatever. All of us are intelligent enough to know that there have been a gigantic number of people killed by COVID-19, and that the number is going up every day. I just hope you're able to see that you trusted the wrong people when they told you this was nothing in February or would be gone by Easter, or we'd have a vaccine by July, or...

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No need to get nasty or quibble about whether it's 209K, 200K, or whatever. All of us are intelligent enough to know that there have been a gigantic number of people killed by COVID-19, and that the number is going up every day. I just hope you're able to see that you trusted the wrong people when they told you this was nothing in February or would be gone by Easter, or we'd have a vaccine by July, or...

Thanks for the unsolicited advice. You believe what you want and I will trust my first hand experience and the simple facts and data.


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[Pricestavern]

Originally Posted by joey2665

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS

I don't think the rest of the world is in on skewing our election by faking their numbers and shutting down for no good reason. They did it because it is airborne, easily transmittable, affects both young and old, and is deadly. There's a big world out there that are dealing with the same things we are and have been doing it better. It ain't all about us.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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I think of it like this: someone can have cancer and get hit by a car while crossing the street. It's the car that killed him.

I know it's not that simple, but a lot of the cases are old(er) people who ultimately died from the complications of Covid (who would not have died otherwise).

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[Flylady]

Thinking that an older person in a nursing home that died of Covid is the same as dying from old age peacefully is wrong. Covid impairs the lungs ability to breathe thus causing the victim to experience the effect of drowning before they get put (if they do) on a ventilator.

Also the reason for death is very important, because if the victim has covid, the process of how their body is handled is very different than that of someone who does not have covid.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I think of it like this: someone can have cancer and get hit by a car while crossing the street. It's the car that killed him.

I know it's not that simple, but a lot of the cases are old(er) people who ultimately died from the complications of Covid (who would not have died otherwise).

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You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!


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You hit on an important aspect: the lasting effects. Though two people I know have *recovered* they still are struggling with lingering issues.

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[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!

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I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

Thank you. That is exactly what I have been saying. There is a HUGE difference in passing away WITH COVID as over 200k have and ACTUALLY PASSING FROM COVID.

Wake up it’s about money and control.


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[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Wake up it’s about money and control.

You are right. The NH governor has been pretty good about threading the needle of control and for the most part, it is currently working. The state and lakes region are among the safest areas in the country to not catch the virus. Walk-in businesses are also trying to control people by requiring masks, so they can make money. No masks means fewer customers, especially customers at higher risk. Some areas of the country opted for less control, or had less compliance and are showing new spikes. The goal has to be to keep those spikes from going exponential.

The money for healthcare treatments, research and vaccines, along with bail-outs is like water, magically flowing from empty coffers. Mostly for perceived needs. Too soon to be sure how that will play out. Probably a lot of waste.

I'm not buying most of the conspiracy theories, especially at the local and state levels but epic exploitation seems to be common behind the scenes. If it was a US only epidemic, maybe someone could be found pulling the strings, but a global conspiracy seems unlikely. You can't fool all the people all of the time, I hope.

So yes, wake up. Consider the control recommendations and obey the few requirements. Accept that they are good for the community, are everyone's responsibility and will change as new information is learned or curves shift up again. Much of the various government levels are doing their best to help. Be glad the state isn't trying to control its citizens as strongly as in other parts of the world.

Spend your money locally. Take what you need from government handouts and call out corona corruption where you see it. Live life on your terms, balancing your unique balance of risk and precaution and letting others live theirs. Here in the lakes region, I think most of us get this and have been rewarded with a lot of freedom. The few selfish ones that aren't buying into the need for control are at little risk because so many are taking precautions.

The nightmare will be over eventually. Maybe we'll have a "roaring 20's" again to celebrate. The history books of 2120 will tell the tale much like we read of the 1918 pandemic today. By then, the yearly excess deaths and the long term health issues by demographic will be better known. In 2040, we'll be asking if someone died of a heart problem or was it because they had Corona in 2020.

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The few selfish ones that aren't buying into the need for control are at little risk because so many are taking precautions.

The nightmare will be over eventually. Maybe we'll have a "roaring 20's" again to celebrate.

Yes!- on the few selfish ones!
I'd rather have the 60s- same as the 20s, really!

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

Did your co-worker die at the scene of injuries from the crash? Or did your co-worker survive the crash, contract COVID while in the hospital and die of pulmonary complications associated with COVID-19 that they would not have otherwise had? So yes, it is possible to attribute a death associated with a motorcycle crash to COVID-19. Would they have died if they hadn’t been in a motorcycle crash? No. Would they have died if they had been in a motorcycle crash but not contracted COVID and it’s associated pulmonary complications? Well now, that is the question. So did they die from a motorcycle crash or from complications associated with COVID? That is exactly what I’m talking about! Some of you want to simplify the epidemiology of this disease and it’s mortality rate. It’s not that easy. Nothing is easy about epidemiology but some of you all have it all figured out based on what you Google and hear on the news. That’s like picking your physician based upon how many episodes of Grey’s Anatomy they’ve watched! There is and has been some misreporting but some does not equate to substantial misreporting. The overall death rate in the US is about 8-12% higher for the first 7 months of this year than the previous year. The most significant variable of 2020 is COVID-19. Traumatic injury death rates are down as people were in their homes and not participating in at risk behaviors. I’ll let you in on a little secret. In the end, EVERYONE dies of cardiac arrest. When the heart stops it’s all over for each of us. I laugh every time I hear that reported in the news...”So and so was reported to have died of cardiac arrest.” Of course they did...but what precipitated that? Well that often gets complicated.


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[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

Did your co-worker die at the scene of injuries from the crash? Or did your co-worker survive the crash, contract COVID while in the hospital and die of pulmonary complications associated with COVID-19 that they would not have otherwise had? So yes, it is possible to attribute a death associated with a motorcycle crash to COVID-19. Would they have died if they hadn’t been in a motorcycle crash? No. Would they have died if they had been in a motorcycle crash but not contracted COVID and it’s associated pulmonary complications? Well now, that is the question. So did they die from a motorcycle crash or from complications associated with COVID? That is exactly what I’m talking about! Some of you want to simplify the epidemiology of this disease and it’s mortality rate. It’s not that easy. Nothing is easy about epidemiology but some of you all have it all figured out based on what you Google and hear on the news. That’s like picking your physician based upon how many episodes of Grey’s Anatomy they’ve watched! There is and has been some misreporting but some does not equate to substantial misreporting. The overall death rate in the US is about 8-12% higher for the first 7 months of this year than the previous year. The most significant variable of 2020 is COVID-19. Traumatic injury death rates are down as people were in their homes and not participating in at risk behaviors. I’ll let you in on a little secret. In the end, EVERYONE dies of cardiac arrest. When the heart stops it’s all over for each of us. I laugh every time I hear that reported in the news...”So and so was reported to have died of cardiac arrest.” Of course they did...but what precipitated that? Well that often gets complicated.


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He didn’t even make it into the ambulance alive unfortunately. They said he was tested and had covid. Must’ve been one of the cases that were not bothered by it. Was still out living his normal life.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

He didn’t even make it into the ambulance alive unfortunately. They said he was tested and had covid. Must’ve been one of the cases that were not bothered by it. Was still out living his normal life.

I’m sorry to hear that. Well that would clearly be a misreported COVID death if it was reported as such.


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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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Read through the previous posts and you'll get your answer. We're not looking at the same set of facts which makes it impossible to develop a strategy to address the problem.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Read through the previous posts and you'll get your answer. We're not looking at the same set of facts which makes it impossible to develop a strategy to address the problem.

Yup, and the same vitriolic discourse.
Hope y'all are well at your school.

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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yup, and the same vitriolic discourse.
Hope y'all are well at your school.

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Five days/week of in person learning. Lots of new protocols but parents are supportive. A big challenge is the daily health check - answer yes and you're out of school for 10 days or until you produce a negative COVID test. Students, even PreK are wearing masks, trying to maintain distance, and washing hands a lot.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Five days/week of in person learning. Lots of new protocols but parents are supportive. A big challenge is the daily health check - answer yes and you're out of school for 10 days or until you produce a negative COVID test. Students, even PreK are wearing masks, trying to maintain distance, and washing hands a lot.

Nice—full in would be great. My principle got on the intercom today to let us know the town had been downgraded to yellow.

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