Another Business Leaves Meredith

FlyingScot · 11-01-2020, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAXUM

From NPR....

Propane can be confusing for some consumers because per gallon it is cheaper than heating oil, but because it contains less energy per gallon. OEP data puts propane at 40 percent more expensive than oil for space heating.

Hmmm--I think this chart is also confusing. It describes electricity as the most expensive, but obviously that is with outdated baseboards, and is not the case with electric mini splits.

MAXUM · 11-01-2020, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Hmmm--I think this chart is also confusing. It describes electricity as the most expensive, but obviously that is with outdated baseboards, and is not the case with electric mini splits.

Right, I would venture to say that those mini splits are in a category of their own. Although correct me if I'm wrong but those are considered to be more like a "space heater" than a whole home solution? I didn't read the entire article to see exactly how they derived these numbers but did find it interesting.

However you slice it I think this is accurate in that heating with electricity is generally the most expensive.

FlyingScot · 11-01-2020, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Right, I would venture to say that those mini splits are in a category of their own. Although correct me if I'm wrong but those are considered to be more like a "space heater" than a whole home solution? I didn't read the entire article to see exactly how they derived these numbers but did find it interesting.

However you slice it I think this is accurate in that heating with electricity is generally the most expensive.

Mini splits were not suitable for a whole home 10 or so years ago. But they are now--our Massachusetts house was built 3 years ago, mini splits only. I did some rough calcs at the time, I think they are about half the price of oil to run them.

Stilljester · 11-02-2020, 07:19 AM

I believe the chart is simply the cost to generate 1 million BTUs per a specific fuel source (Cost in NH per the title) so it is agnostic regarding the space itself & the underlying efficiency to heat or cool it.

The British Thermal Unit, or BTU, is an energy unit. It is approximately the energy needed to heat one pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit. 1 BTU = 1,055 joules, 252 calories, 0.293 watt-hour or the energy released by burning one match. 1 watt is approximately 3.412 BTU per hour

This chart will change drastically based on the price (cost) assumption of the fuel source itself.

Patofnaud · 11-02-2020, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stilljester

I believe the chart is simply the cost to generate 1 million BTUs per a specific fuel source (Cost in NH per the title) so it is agnostic regarding the space itself & the underlying efficiency to heat or cool it.

The British Thermal Unit, or BTU, is an energy unit. It is approximately the energy needed to heat one pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit. 1 BTU = 1,055 joules, 252 calories, 0.293 watt-hour or the energy released by burning one match. 1 watt is approximately 3.412 BTU per hour

This chart will change drastically based on the price (cost) assumption of the fuel source itself.

Correct. For any given fuel your end cost would be based on the efficiency of the use of it. That is why heat pumps (used in min-splits) cost less to run than electric baseboards while providing the same end effect.

Sue Doe-Nym · 11-02-2020, 10:53 AM

Please don’t do an eye roll here....I have never heard of mini splits. If a homeowner with electric baseboard heat wanted to switch to the newer more efficient mini split system, what is entailed, and would it be terribly expensive to do? We have electric bb, and propane system was added later. I am wondering if it makes sense to do the mini split system since it sounds efficient and reasonable in cost to operate, even with N.H.’s high electric rates. Small cape, about 2200 s.f. Thanks for opinions.
Sue

fatlazyless · 11-02-2020, 11:29 AM

In Canada, by a Canada law, have heard that all propane heaters must be the design that continues to make heat when the electricity is down. Is this really true?

Is not the case in USA or in NH, and you can get either a propane warm air space heater that continues to work when the electricity is down or goes out until the electricity comes back on ...... which can make a big difference if the power is out for 24-hours in very cold temps. The non electricity dependent propane heaters operate on the propane pressure within the propane storage tank, and have a pilot light and a 12-volt dc Piezo (whatever that is?) self-generating hot air heat that can work a remote wall mounted thermostat.

It has a propane pilot light, which is the key design to the non electricity dependent systems.

A Rinnai direct vent will shut off without electricity, and come back on, when the electricity is back.

MAXUM · 11-02-2020, 12:16 PM

The use of pilot lights on gas appliances is being replaced by on demand ignition which are fired by A/C but most decent stuff has a battery backup should the lights go out. It's a safety thing.

This all comes down to properly preparing your situation in the event of power loss. Paying a steep premium for propane cause it works without electricity is pretty short sighted.

Installing a transfer switch and purchasing a portable generator is short money and can give you plenty of power for the essentials when needed.

11-02-2020, 10:53 AM	#6
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,458 Thanks: 762 Thanked 796 Times in 419 Posts	Elementary and probably dumb question Please don’t do an eye roll here....I have never heard of mini splits. If a homeowner with electric baseboard heat wanted to switch to the newer more efficient mini split system, what is entailed, and would it be terribly expensive to do? We have electric bb, and propane system was added later. I am wondering if it makes sense to do the mini split system since it sounds efficient and reasonable in cost to operate, even with N.H.’s high electric rates. Small cape, about 2200 s.f. Thanks for opinions. Sue

11-02-2020, 11:29 AM	#7
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,923 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 306 Thanked 1,056 Times in 769 Posts	In Canada, by a Canada law, have heard that all propane heaters must be the design that continues to make heat when the electricity is down. Is this really true? Is not the case in USA or in NH, and you can get either a propane warm air space heater that continues to work when the electricity is down or goes out until the electricity comes back on ...... which can make a big difference if the power is out for 24-hours in very cold temps. The non electricity dependent propane heaters operate on the propane pressure within the propane storage tank, and have a pilot light and a 12-volt dc Piezo (whatever that is?) self-generating hot air heat that can work a remote wall mounted thermostat. It has a propane pilot light, which is the key design to the non electricity dependent systems. A Rinnai direct vent will shut off without electricity, and come back on, when the electricity is back. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

11-02-2020, 07:19 AM	#4
Stilljester Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 61 Thanks: 2 Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts	I believe the chart is simply the cost to generate 1 million BTUs per a specific fuel source (Cost in NH per the title) so it is agnostic regarding the space itself & the underlying efficiency to heat or cool it. The British Thermal Unit, or BTU, is an energy unit. It is approximately the energy needed to heat one pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit. 1 BTU = 1,055 joules, 252 calories, 0.293 watt-hour or the energy released by burning one match. 1 watt is approximately 3.412 BTU per hour This chart will change drastically based on the price (cost) assumption of the fuel source itself.

11-02-2020, 12:16 PM	#8
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	The use of pilot lights on gas appliances is being replaced by on demand ignition which are fired by A/C but most decent stuff has a battery backup should the lights go out. It's a safety thing. This all comes down to properly preparing your situation in the event of power loss. Paying a steep premium for propane cause it works without electricity is pretty short sighted. Installing a transfer switch and purchasing a portable generator is short money and can give you plenty of power for the essentials when needed.