Laconia Oct 3 ice hockey ref tests positive

[fatlazyless]

Google this "Laconia Oct 3 ice hockey referee tests positive" ...... for corona virus, possibly effecting hockey players at about five different hockey games in Maine and Laconia, NH, and you get newspaper, tv, and State of Maine results from Maine and zero results from New Hampshire news sources.

The game in NH was held at Merrill Fay Arena, Laconia, NH, Saturday, October 3, starting at 5:45-pm: a game officiated by a hockey referee who has since tested positive for coronavirus has caused some concern for hockey players.

In New Hampshire ....................... there's nothing about it, yet, on the radar screen for local NH newspaper or tv news.

In Maine ..... it's attention all hockey players ......."how you feeling?" ...... and ...... "do you need to get tested?"

What's news in Maine is no news in NH ...... oh well ..... there's always tomorrow for the NH news in the Union Leader and WMUR-News 9 .....

http://www.pressherald.com/2020/10/0...tional-deaths/ ..... from Portland, Maine, October 8, 2020

[fatlazyless]

Here's an Oct 15 update on what's happening at the ice hockey rinks:

Laconia Daily Sun, Oct 15: "Indoor ice rinks, including Merrill Fay, closed for two weeks over Covid-19 risk"

Union Leader, Oct 16, no subscription needed: "Sununu puts indoor hockey, skating on ice for two weeks" as he closes all NH indoor ice rinks through October 29.

So, what did the Maine hockey player say to the New Hampshire hockey player after reading these two latest Oct 15 LaDaSun reports ........ "It's time for us to get the puck outta here ....... a-yuh! ....... and, don't you be breath'n in my direction!"

I read in a lengthy, detailed NY Times article, September 27, 2020, 'How to Keep the Coronavirus At Bay Indoors' that "The Coronavirus thrives in dry air" (at end of article) and keeping windows open just a couple inches will definitely help to mitigate the virus, so possibly the cold dry air present in indoor ice arenas supports the transmission of the virus from the referee to a hockey player, to another hockey player. Do the boards and plexiglass that surrounds the ice rink also contain the air above the ice surface?

Do hockey players wear C-19 face masks while playing because there's a lot of heavy breathing going on what with the strenuous hockey play?

Vermont, Oct 20, 2020: http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/42792435...oomball-league .... Gov Phil Scott said the outbreak in central Vermont "may be connected to the outbreaks in New Hampshire."

.............

Granite Geek, no subscription needed, Oct 14, 2020: "COVID cases rise fast in N.H. as cold weather arrives ..."

[fatlazyless]

Looks like I'm the only one posting on this ice hockey-corona virus thread ...... so's let's get the puck outta here and go to Wednesday, December 9, 2020: NY Times: This Sport Is a "Way of Life." In a Pandemic, It's Also High Risk.


No expensive subscription needed for irregular readers, just google that ..... all about youth ice hockey and the corona virus.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Looks like I'm the only one posting on this ice hockey-corona virus thread ...... so's let's get the puck outta here and go to Wednesday, December 9, 2020: NY Times: This Sport Is a "Way of Life." In a Pandemic, It's Also High Risk.

No expensive subscription needed for irregular readers, just google that ..... all about youth ice hockey and the corona virus.

I wouldn’t acknowledge the article from the Times. It’s a bunch of crap. Youth sports do have some isolated issues like other areas but it’s not a major issue. Worst is the inconsistency in what sports can or cannot be played. Your can play lacrosse and baseball but not hockey with players completely covered head to toe and playing inside well ventilated rinks. You cannot tell me it’s more risky than baseball where you share the same ball hold runners on base close contact on sliding next to others on the bench etc. again it’s crap.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[AC2717]

youth sports is not a problem, at least here in MA, nor much of anything else

appears being coop'ed up in your house is:

[hd333]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I wouldn’t acknowledge the article from the Times. It’s a bunch of crap. Youth sports do have some isolated issues like other areas but it’s not a major issue. Worst is the inconsistency in what sports can or cannot be played. Your can play lacrosse and baseball but not hockey with players completely covered head to toe and playing inside well ventilated rinks. You cannot tell me it’s more risky than baseball where you share the same ball hold runners on base close contact on sliding next to others on the bench etc. again it’s crap.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Let me caveat this by saying I am a parent of kids in youth sports.

It isn’t so much the actual sport being played, and it is not just hockey, it is the behavior of parents and kids before, after, and during games.

Parents can’t watch the games socially distanced in the stands, which is STUPID, so they huddle together and watch it on an iPad or projector at a tailgate, at someone’s house or while sitting in a car with other parents, while most likely eating and drinking.

Kids jump in parents cars together between games to stay warm, have a snack or whatever. Do the math, 5 kids in a car, no way to social distance

The excuse is that we are are friends and we have a bubble so it is ok is BS.

People don’t understand that these “bubbles” are not as small as they think. If just one of the parents interacts with the public for his/her job then that bubble just multiplied tenfold.

Common sense needs to come into play.

It may not be easy to tell your friends or kids that jamming into a car or other tight space with 5 people is not the right thing to do at this time, but it beats exposing parents/grandparents to a virus that could potentially kill them.

People have to worry about others not just themselves, I don’t think everyone understands that point.

Getting the vaccine distributed is the only way to end all this BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by hd333

Let me caveat this by saying I am a parent of kids in youth sports.

It isn’t so much the actual sport being played, and it is not just hockey, it is the behavior of parents and kids before, after, and during games.

Parents can’t watch the games socially distanced in the stands, which is STUPID, so they huddle together and watch it on an iPad or projector at a tailgate, at someone’s house or while sitting in a car with other parents, while most likely eating and drinking.

Kids jump in parents cars together between games to stay warm, have a snack or whatever. Do the math, 5 kids in a car, no way to social distance

The excuse is that we are are friends and we have a bubble so it is ok is BS.

People don’t understand that these “bubbles” are not as small as they think. If just one of the parents interacts with the public for his/her job then that bubble just multiplied tenfold.

Common sense needs to come into play.

It may not be easy to tell your friends or kids that jamming into a car or other tight space with 5 people is not the right thing to do at this time, but it beats exposing parents/grandparents to a virus that could potentially kill them.

People have to worry about others not just themselves, I don’t think everyone understands that point.

Getting the vaccine distributed is the only way to end all this BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What you are saying is encompassed in the numbers above on the chart - the State of MA info directly. Part of the tracing

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by hd333

Let me caveat this by saying I am a parent of kids in youth sports.

It isn’t so much the actual sport being played, and it is not just hockey, it is the behavior of parents and kids before, after, and during games.

Parents can’t watch the games socially distanced in the stands, which is STUPID, so they huddle together and watch it on an iPad or projector at a tailgate, at someone’s house or while sitting in a car with other parents, while most likely eating and drinking.

Kids jump in parents cars together between games to stay warm, have a snack or whatever. Do the math, 5 kids in a car, no way to social distance

The excuse is that we are are friends and we have a bubble so it is ok is BS.

People don’t understand that these “bubbles” are not as small as they think. If just one of the parents interacts with the public for his/her job then that bubble just multiplied tenfold.

Common sense needs to come into play.

It may not be easy to tell your friends or kids that jamming into a car or other tight space with 5 people is not the right thing to do at this time, but it beats exposing parents/grandparents to a virus that could potentially kill them.

People have to worry about others not just themselves, I don’t think everyone understands that point.

Getting the vaccine distributed is the only way to end all this BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow. I completely disagree. By your standards the whole country needs to be shut down which is ludicrous

I am a parent, manager of a travel hockey team and coach of a high school ice ice team both which my son plays for. The situations you describe and not what our teams practice at all and also the same could be said in your scenario if it is happening, for all youth sports.

So why are some being played and others not?

Also the same could be said for any situation were there are groups, like outings, dinners etc where apparently you can only catch Covid walking to your table or going to the bathroom but not while eating at your table. Additionally you can more likely catch it after 10pm and having a drink at the bar if you don’t eat food.

It’s all crap and the kids are suffering.

I will also tell you this, NO-ONE is forcing me to take a vaccine, I have never gotten the flu shot and never had it.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[hd333]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Wow. I completely disagree. By your standards the whole country needs to be shut down which is ludicrous

I am a parent, manager of a travel hockey team and coach of a high school ice ice team both which my son plays for. The situations you describe and not what our teams practice at all and also the same could be said in your scenario if it is happening, for all youth sports.

So why are some being played and others not?

Also the same could be said for any situation were there are groups, like outings, dinners etc where apparently you can only catch Covid walking to your table or going to the bathroom but not while eating at your table. Additionally you can more likely catch it after 10pm and having a drink at the bar if you don’t eat food.

It’s all crap and the kids are suffering.

I will also tell you this, NO-ONE is forcing me to take a vaccine, I have never gotten the flu shot and never had it.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Originally Posted by joey2665

Wow. I completely disagree. By your standards the whole country needs to be shut down which is ludicrous

I am a parent, manager of a travel hockey team and coach of a high school ice ice team both which my son plays for. The situations you describe and not what our teams practice at all and also the same could be said in your scenario if it is happening, for all youth sports.

So why are some being played and others not?

Also the same could be said for any situation were there are groups, like outings, dinners etc where apparently you can only catch Covid walking to your table or going to the bathroom but not while eating at your table. Additionally you can more likely catch it after 10pm and having a drink at the bar if you don’t eat food.

It’s all crap and the kids are suffering.

I will also tell you this, NO-ONE is forcing me to take a vaccine, I have never gotten the flu shot and never had it.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I am in no way saying the country needs to be shut down, quite the opposite. What I am saying is some common sense needs to be used.

I’m not saying sports is the issue.

Let the kids play sports, all sports, let the parents watch, but the parents need to use some common sense and spread out and set some guidelines.

You’re telling me that you don’t see cars full of kids in between games, or parents hanging out drinking and not social distanced pre/post game? I’m not necessarily talking high school ages here either, the club scene has a certain social aspect that goes along with it.

I’m all for returning to normalcy and in no way want to “close down the country” as you say. I see my friends who own small businesses struggle and I do everything in my power to help them succeed. If we all use common sense the government won’t need to jump in an close things down. MA just took a step backwards in that regard and it is due in part to people gathering over thanksgiving which created a spike. I get the Covid fatigue, everyone is dealing with it, hell I would have loved to have our normal thanksgiving this year, but we didn’t do it.

The point I was trying to make is sports is not the issue, it is all the “stuff” that goes along with it, hanging out with other parents in the hotel lobby, kids watching movies in one of the parents rooms, all this for an extended period of time is how it spreads.
We know it doesn’t easily spread in the few minutes it takes to walk through a restaurant, but is throwing a mask on while you walk to your table really impacting your life in a negative way? BTW your mask isn’t helping you, it’s helping others. It isn’t dining out in restaurants with your family that is spreading this, it is gathering with a bunch of people over a long period of time inside that is spreading it.

For the after 10:00 argument, c’mon, we all know COVID is not a gremlin that comes out at 10, but after 10, at least in MA/NH, dinning is pretty much over and establishments turn to drinking mode, which I love, but in our current environment hanging around with a bunch of people until 1:00 closing the bar puts people at a greater risk of being exposed.

I think we are more on the same page on this topic than you think we are BTW. (Except maybe for the vaccine)

End of rant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by hd333

I am in no way saying the country needs to be shut down, quite the opposite. What I am saying is some common sense needs to be used.

I’m not saying sports is the issue.

Let the kids play sports, all sports, let the parents watch, but the parents need to use some common sense and spread out and set some guidelines.

You’re telling me that you don’t see cars full of kids in between games, or parents hanging out drinking and not social distanced pre/post game? I’m not necessarily talking high school ages here either, the club scene has a certain social aspect that goes along with it.

I’m all for returning to normalcy and in no way want to “close down the country” as you say. I see my friends who own small businesses struggle and I do everything in my power to help them succeed. If we all use common sense the government won’t need to jump in an close things down. MA just took a step backwards in that regard and it is due in part to people gathering over thanksgiving which created a spike. I get the Covid fatigue, everyone is dealing with it, hell I would have loved to have our normal thanksgiving this year, but we didn’t do it.

The point I was trying to make is sports is not the issue, it is all the “stuff” that goes along with it, hanging out with other parents in the hotel lobby, kids watching movies in one of the parents rooms, all this for an extended period of time is how it spreads.
We know it doesn’t easily spread in the few minutes it takes to walk through a restaurant, but is throwing a mask on while you walk to your table really impacting your life in a negative way? BTW your mask isn’t helping you, it’s helping others. It isn’t dining out in restaurants with your family that is spreading this, it is gathering with a bunch of people over a long period of time inside that is spreading it.

For the after 10:00 argument, c’mon, we all know COVID is not a gremlin that comes out at 10, but after 10, at least in MA/NH, dinning is pretty much over and establishments turn to drinking mode, which I love, but in our current environment hanging around with a bunch of people until 1:00 closing the bar puts people at a greater risk of being exposed.

I think we are more on the same page on this topic than you think we are BTW. (Except maybe for the vaccine)

End of rant.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry I do not. We have rules and they are followed. The parents know if they aren’t following them then the kids will get shut which is their worst fear.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

I'm getting the vacine as soon as it's available to me, not just for my protection but my concern for others also. I want to do my part to slow the spread. If the goverment injects a GPS tracker into to my I hope they give my family the APP.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I'm getting the vaccine as soon as it's available to me, not just for my protection but my concern for others also. I want to do my part to slow the spread. If the goverment injects a GPS tracker into to my I hope they give my family the APP.

1) One hundred million Americans are promised one hundred million vaccinations starting January 20th, 2021. The rest of us can be vaccinated in late March to early April, 2021.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...pring-n1247232

2) The first person to receive the American version (Pfizer) received the very first injection this past Tuesday.

This occurred in Britain!

[LoveLakeLife]

Yes, throwing on a mask while walking to a restaurant table would negatively impact my life. I would feel ashamed and embarrassed knowing that I’m participating in the groupthink silliness just to conform to the crowd of followers. I haven’t worn a mask since this nonsense started. Thankfully the vaccine is imminent and we can enjoy the lake next summer unimpeded.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[WinnisquamZ]

https://www.theepochtimes.com/new-ha...e_3611472.html


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Susie Cougar]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I'm getting the vacine as soon as it's available to me, not just for my protection but my concern for others also. I want to do my part to slow the spread. If the goverment injects a GPS tracker into to my I hope they give my family the APP.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

This has always been my thought process. I have gotten the flu shot, not for my purpose, but to make sure I would not pass it on inadvertently to someone else. When my grandchildren were born, everyone in the family had to get booster shots for whooping cough so that we would not pass it to the new babies before they were able to be vaccinated. To me it’s just common sense and the right thing to do.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

This has always been my thought process. I have gotten the flu shot, not for my purpose, but to make sure I would not pass it on inadvertently to someone else. When my grandchildren were born, everyone in the family had to get booster shots for whooping cough so that we would not pass it to the new babies before they were able to be vaccinated. To me it’s just common sense and the right thing to do.

I get the flue shot every year because my grand children are germ spreaders. They are always sick and when they come over they like to give me lots of hugs, kisses, and gems.
I will say this virus has reduced their sick time and also mine.

[pondguy]

With all my health problems as soon as I can get the Covid vaccine I will its been a long 10 months at home.

[Susie Cougar]

Let’s hope enough people get the vaccine so we have herd immunity. After all this time, like you say, we have all sacrificed a lot and it shouldn’t be for nothing.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Yes, throwing on a mask while walking to a restaurant table would negatively impact my life. I would feel ashamed and embarrassed knowing that I’m participating in the groupthink silliness just to conform to the crowd of followers. I haven’t worn a mask since this nonsense started. Thankfully the vaccine is imminent and we can enjoy the lake next summer unimpeded.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Not sure how you can call reliance on science groupthink. especially since the people you are relying upon for the vaccine are exactly the same people telling you to wear a mask.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

This has always been my thought process. I have gotten the flu shot, not for my purpose, but to make sure I would not pass it on inadvertently to someone else. When my grandchildren were born, everyone in the family had to get booster shots for whooping cough so that we would not pass it to the new babies before they were able to be vaccinated. To me it’s just common sense and the right thing to do.

What might be common sense for some isn’t for others. I do not put any unnecessary medications or vaccines in my body that’s common sense to me.

Really not understanding the whooping cough issue. We have had many new children in our family and it have never been recommended we all get a booster for whooping cough.

Maybe this particular child had an underlying issue?

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Susie Cougar]

Originally Posted by joey2665

What might be common sense for some isn’t for others. I do not put any unnecessary medications or vaccines in my body that’s common sense to me.

Really not understanding the whooping cough issue. We have had many new children in our family and it have never been recommended we all get a booster for whooping cough.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

No underlying issues, it is standard caregiving now. Have you never seen the commercials on TV with the big bad wolf coughing on the innocent baby? My oldest grand child is 12 years old so this would’ve been before he was born. My daughter’s obstetrician told her that we all need to get booster shots, if we were to come in contact with the baby before he could be vaccinated himself.
Not sure why you’ve never heard about it.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Not sure how you can call reliance on science groupthink. especially since the people you are relying upon for the vaccine are exactly the same people telling you to wear a mask.

It's always "science" when it favors your argument, but when it doesn't, it's only "quackery".

[LoveLakeLife]

I agree with Seaplane. In the beginning the so-called top epidemiologist said masks were unnecessary and advised against wearing them. Don’t forget that no one can “tell” us to wear a mask. They can only advise. If you’re younger than 65 and healthy it’s a spurious thing to do (based on the science). Lol. Just like there’s a 99% chance of survival for that cohort, there’s a 5% chance of failure for the virus. No guarantees, just probabilities. Here’s looking forward to the rear view mirror.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

We've been rounding the corner for two months now, unfortunately we have a flat tire and we are almost out of gas.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

No underlying issues, it is standard caregiving now. Have you never seen the commercials on TV with the big bad wolf coughing on the innocent baby? My oldest grand child is 12 years old so this would’ve been before he was born. My daughter’s obstetrician told her that we all need to get booster shots, if we were to come in contact with the baby before he could be vaccinated himself.

Not sure why you’ve never heard about it.

Honestly never heard it before. Maybe just not common where in from in New York.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

It's always "science" when it favors your argument, but when it doesn't, it's only "quackery".

Not true--I have never posted something disputing well conducted science or well-analyzed data. It is true however that some people assert silly things in the name of science--like, "my dentist's advice on COVID..."

It's also true that experts aren't perfect, and that there were a whole bunch of things that people did not know about covid at the start. One important difference between people who respect science and people who do not is that the first group tends to modify their opinions as they learn more.

It is amazing to me that a number of people on this board have steadfastly refused to change their views on covid even as we've gone from "it will be gone by Easter" to 300,000 or so dead Americans.

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Yes, throwing on a mask while walking to a restaurant table would negatively impact my life. I would feel ashamed and embarrassed knowing that I’m participating in the groupthink silliness just to conform to the crowd of followers. I haven’t worn a mask since this nonsense started. Thankfully the vaccine is imminent and we can enjoy the lake next summer unimpeded.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

You don't need a mask to attract shame and embarrassment!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by joey2665

It’s all crap and the kids are suffering.

Good point.

At the last Covid funeral I attended. I went alone to cemetery - I went alone and kept much more than 6 feet from others.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Good point.

At the last Covid funeral I attended. I went alone to cemetery - I went alone and kept much more than 6 feet from others.

Not sure I will understand your point. Yes it’s there but at the same time lives need to be lived I do not believe in shutting down.

Be vigilant wear masks but the youth should not be sheltered.

How about letting people make their own decisions. If your at high risk or nervous stay home but let the rest of us live our lives.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

This is exactly what I’m talking about and a complete overreaction



In New York sports are only allocated to 1.04% of exposure and restaurants 1.43% but the have ceased high school sports and nyc is closing inside dining on Monday.

Closing sports and restaurants is only going to increase the main source of gatherings. People are going to go someplace they are not going to sit home

It’s ridiculous

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

In New York sports are only allocated to 1.04% of exposure and restaurants 1.43% but the have ceased high school sports and nyc is closing inside dining on Monday.

Closing sports and restaurants is only going to increase the main source of gatherings. People are going to go someplace they are not going to sit home

It’s ridiculous

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

They are only at 1% because they are not really happening even now. It's well established for anybody who cares to listen that you're asking for trouble if you're going to indoor spaces that have plenty of people, especially without masks--such as normally busy restaurants

[LoveLakeLife]

If you’re younger than 65 and healthy you’re not asking for trouble. At worst you’re likely to only have typical flu symptoms.

No one said it would be gone by Easter. It was hoped to have been gone by Easter. Much different.

Shame and embarrassment can’t be attracted. They’re internal feelings.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

They are only at 1% because they are not really happening even now. It's well established for anybody who cares to listen that you're asking for trouble if you're going to indoor spaces that have plenty of people, especially without masks--such as normally busy restaurants

Completely disagree. Follow the rules, masks and distancing and go about your business. If you're not comfortable stay home. Leave the choice to the individual.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[LoveLakeLife]

Here here Joey.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[LoveLakeLife]

Sorry I think I meant Hear Hear.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Completely disagree. Follow the rules, masks and distancing and go about your business. If your not comfortable stay home. Leave the choice to the individual.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Understood--you disagreed with people in March when they said thousands could die, you disagreed in May when people said there's no way to get a vaccine by July, and you disagree now with the pretty much universally held idea that more people indoors without masks will lead to more infections.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Understood--you disagreed with people in March when they said thousands could die, you disagreed in May when people said there's no way to get a vaccine by July, and you disagree now with the pretty much universally held idea that more people indoors without masks will lead to more infections.

Again you are missing the point as usual and I never said people wouldn’t die. I do believe there is overreaction which is costing people their livelihood.

Live you life your way and I’ll live mine my way. I will not stay quarantined in my home. If an establishment requires a mask I’ll wear it and if I need to distance I will.

If you are worried then stay home that’s your choice not mine. Look at the numbers above it not coming from sports or restaurants it’s coming from household gatherings which I agree can be an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Mr. V]

It really "frosts my cookies" when people say they won't wear a mask or maintain social distancing or avoid gatherings in defiance of government mandates.

I put them in the same category as I put people during WWII who refused (for whatever reason) to maintain a blackout or to obey rationing requirements.

"I'm a free man, no government is going to tell me what to do."

Note to those folks: it ain't about you, it's about the rest of us.

[Biggd]

One of my best friends had a heart attack a little over a week ago. He was rushed into Newton Wellesley Hospital and he was stuck in a hallway all week waiting for a bed to open up for a transfer to MGH.
So for the people that don't think this is real, I hope you don't need serious medical help right now.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

It really "frosts my cookies" when people say they won't wear a mask or maintain social distancing or avoid gatherings in defiance of government mandates.

I put them in the same category as I put people during WWII who refused (for whatever reason) to maintain a blackout or to obey rationing requirements.

"I'm a free man, no government is going to tell me what to do."

Note to those folks: it ain't about you, it's about the rest of us.

Frost your cookies all you want.

That’s not what I said. If an establishment requires me to wear one I will as with distancing. However I am dead set against shutting down business. Look at the numbers I posted.

The cases are not coming from restaurants or sports etc and shut downs are disastrous for these businesses their families and employees.

Let people decide on there own if they want to quarantine or go about some
Normalcy while being vigilant.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

The cases are not coming from restaurants or sports etc and shut downs are disastrous for these businesses their families and employees.

Stanford Study Suggests Indoor Dining Presents Huge COVID-19 Infection Risk: Restaurants are “by far the riskiest places,” researcher says

https://sf.eater.com/21561143/covid-...han-zuckerberg


South Korea study highlights risks of indoor dining

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...liveBlogHeader

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Stanford Study Suggests Indoor Dining Presents Huge COVID-19 Infection Risk: Restaurants are “by far the riskiest places,” researcher says

https://sf.eater.com/21561143/covid-...han-zuckerberg

South Korea study highlights risks of indoor dining

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...liveBlogHeader

First of all it’s extremely scary that they tracked 98 million people thru their cell phone data. Secondly I find this method unreliable and even the study says it “suggests”. My numbers i quoted are hard numbers not statistical assumptions.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by joey2665

This is exactly what I’m talking about and a complete overreaction

Attachment 16626

In New York sports are only allocated to 1.04% of exposure and restaurants 1.43% but the have ceased high school sports and nyc is closing inside dining on Monday.

Closing sports and restaurants is only going to increase the main source of gatherings. People are going to go someplace they are not going to sit home

It’s ridiculous

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Doesn’t this table make the point that everyone should be sitting at home rather than spreading it to the larger community? Not that I think that is in any way realistic, but that is what the numbers suggest.

Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Doesn’t this table make the point that everyone should be sitting at home rather than spreading it to the larger community? Not that I think that is in any way realistic, but that is what the numbers suggest.

Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

No it’s suggests large gatherings in homes are the overwhelming major issue.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

First of all it’s extremely scary that they tracked 98 million people thru their cell phone data. Secondly I find this method unreliable and even the study says it “suggests”. My numbers i quoted are hard numbers not statistical assumptions.

If by "my numbers" you mean the New York data in your post #30 above, those numbers are from state contact tracing data for the period September to November. So, two things: 1) these numbers are based on statistical assumptions, therefore by your definition they are also unreliable, and 2) odds are pretty good that a lot of the restaurant activity in New York from September to November was outdoors, which is less likely to be the case for December and the following few months.

The article on the Stanford study also cited the CDC "which said in September that a study of adults across 11 U.S. cities who tested positive for the novel coronavirus were twice as likely to have dined out within the last two weeks than those who tested negative."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

You're smart enough to form your own conclusion based on whatever you choose to believe or ignore. Some people may find additional information from reputable sources helpful.

[LoveLakeLife]

No one has said it isn’t real. It’s as real as any other flu. It’s just overblown. Don’t be so quick to buckle under an unconstitutional so-termed “government mandate.” If you want to wear a mask or a helmet or a hazmat suit knock yourself out. Or stay home under the bed. Don’t expect society to change to suit your whimsy. Most people choose to live normally and not run scared.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

It's not the flu. The flu is seasonal, this virus is with us all year long. " Most people choose to live normally". That's why we are where we are with infection rates.

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

No one has said it isn’t real. It’s as real as any other flu. It’s just overblown. Don’t be so quick to buckle under an unconstitutional so-termed “government mandate.” If you want to wear a mask or a helmet or a hazmat suit knock yourself out. Or stay home under the bed. Don’t expect society to change to suit your whimsy. Most people choose to live normally and not run scared.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[thinkxingu]

Flu: highest ever deaths per year in America: 61k.

Covid: 10 months = 300k or five times as many.

Also, many more people with Covid experience extreme and/or much longer-lasting symptoms. I have friends still struggling from Covid infections back in May.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by joey2665

No it’s suggests large gatherings in homes are the overwhelming major issue.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Obviously, these large gatherings mean that some people are coming from outside the home and bringing the virus with them, or the virus is in the home already, and visitors pick it up. Then everyone leaves, some are infected, and they go on to infect other people at the next gathering they attend, not knowing that they’re contagious. Ergo, the only way for this to stop happening is for people to sit in their homes where there are either infected people and it’s contained or the home is clear and stays that way. It’s basic logic. As I said, it’s unrealistic for people to just sit inside their house.

And it includes social gatherings as well. How many weddings have been superspreader events? There was a large increase in the northern plains after Sturgis. And that Biogen conference that kicked things off in Boston may be responsible for over 300,000 infections.

Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

If by "my numbers" you mean the New York data in your post #30 above, those numbers are from state contact tracing data for the period September to November. So, two things: 1) these numbers are based on statistical assumptions, therefore by your definition they are also unreliable, and 2) odds are pretty good that a lot of the restaurant activity in New York from September to November was outdoors, which is less likely to be the case for December and the following few months.

The article on the Stanford study also cited the CDC "which said in September that a study of adults across 11 U.S. cities who tested positive for the novel coronavirus were twice as likely to have dined out within the last two weeks than those who tested negative."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm

You're smart enough to form your own conclusion based on whatever you choose to believe or ignore. Some people may find additional information from reputable sources helpful.

Again all those numbers from Stanford are riddled with assumptions. I have formed my opinion and will continue to patron the local establishments to assist them in getting through this. If you want to stay home that’s your choice.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

No one has said it isn’t real. It’s as real as any other flu. It’s just overblown. Don’t be so quick to buckle under an unconstitutional so-termed “government mandate.” If you want to wear a mask or a helmet or a hazmat suit knock yourself out. Or stay home under the bed. Don’t expect society to change to suit your whimsy. Most people choose to live normally and not run scared.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Well said could agree more everyone need to do what they think is best for them and I certainly do not need the government telling me what’s best for me. It’s my choice

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

The key phrase in your post is, "what's best for me".

Originally Posted by joey2665

Well said could agree more everyone need to do what they think is best for them and I certainly do not need the government telling me what’s best for me. It’s my choice


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Biggd

The key phrase in your post is, "what's best for me".

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

That’s correct what’s best for me you do what’s best for you and I’ll do what’s best for me. Again if stores have rules about distancing and masks I will abide by the rules but I don’t think anybody should be closing any businesses it should be my choice and your choice to do what you see is fit for you and your family and for me to do what’s best for me and my family. I am not gonna quarantine myself that’s just my stance and I will continue to support local businesses in person the best way I can

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Well said could agree more everyone need to do what they think is best for them and I certainly do not need the government telling me what’s best for me. It’s my choice

Do you think a government mandate that prohibits smoking in public places is unconstitutional or overreaching? If you are a smoker do you smoke in public places anyway despite a government prohibition, because you don't need the government telling you what's best for you (and others)?

Biggd is right, it's not all about you. With our constitutional rights comes certain responsibilities. You can't have the first without the second. It's too bad that identifying those who are infected with COVID-19 (including the large percentage of those who are completely asymptomatic and are exhaling the virus around them with every breath without knowing it) isn't as easy as identifying a smoker taking a drag on their tobacco product of choice. If that was the case, we could easily stay away to protect ourselves. But since there is no bright scarlet "C" on the front of every infected person, we need to take extra precautions. Like wearing masks in public places, social distancing, and doing our best to avoid gathering in large groups indoors.

I'm struck by the number of people who refuse to make reasonable sacrifices for the greater good in this difficult time, sacrifices that can more quickly help to restore things, both medically and economically, to something closer to normal. Selfishness and obstinance will only prolong the misery. If the pandemic hasn't directly and seriously affected you, maybe you're not really miserable right now, but millions of your fellow citizens are. Thinking about and caring for others is a basic tenet of religion and our national ethos. Or at least it used to be.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Do you think a government mandate that prohibits smoking in public places is unconstitutional or overreaching? If you are a smoker do you smoke in public places anyway despite a government prohibition, because you don't need the government telling you what's best for you (and others)?

Biggd is right, it's not all about you. With our constitutional rights comes certain responsibilities. You can't have the first without the second. It's too bad that identifying those who are infected with COVID-19 (including the large percentage of those who are completely asymptomatic and are exhaling the virus around them with every breath without knowing it) isn't as easy as identifying a smoker taking a drag on their tobacco product of choice. If that was the case, we could easily stay away to protect ourselves. But since there is no bright scarlet "C" on the front of every infected person, we need to take extra precautions. Like wearing masks in public places, social distancing, and doing our best to avoid gathering in large groups indoors.

I'm struck by the number of people who refuse to make reasonable sacrifices for the greater good in this difficult time, sacrifices that can more quickly help to restore things, both medically and economically, to something closer to normal. Selfishness and obstinance will only prolong the misery. If the pandemic hasn't directly and seriously affected you, maybe you're not really miserable right now, but millions of your fellow citizens are. Thinking about and caring for others is a basic tenet of religion and our national ethos. Or at least it used to be.

Who says I’m not being responsible? You? Sorry we have differing opinions live with it. For the 600th time I distance and wear a mask when necessary I’m not endangering anyone but I will not stay home quarantined I’ll live my live and support our local businesses. You do you.

We should be this worried about larger health issues as cancer and diabetes. Should we stop selling all tobacco products and anything with sugar. These are far worse issues the only difference is they aren’t contagious but they kill many more people.

To each his own you don’t like it. Tough luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

We should be this worried about larger health issues as cancer and diabetes. Should we stop selling all tobacco products and anything with sugar. These are far worse issues the only difference is they aren’t contagious but they kill many more people.

Absolutely, cancer and diabetes are serious health concerns, in some cases are preventable and in many cases are treatable. COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States, and the demonstrated ways to prevent its spread are far easier to manage when compared to cancer and diabetes. I can make a conscious decision to use or not use tobacco and eat or not eat sugary foods, but when we're not able to identify where COVID-19 is or is not, community cooperation is needed to stem the spread of the disease. I'm not suggesting that everyone should stay home and quarantine; for any number of reasons that would be not just impractical but impossible. But there are things we can all do that while inconvenient are not overly burdensome. It's about shared sacrifice in the short term for a long term benefit.

Any person who chooses not to take easy precautions to keep himself/herself from becoming infected, fine, live your life. I just ask that A) if that person becomes infected and needs medical care, they voluntarily go to the end of the line and allow others who need medical care to be treated first, and B) unless that person knows 100% that they are not infected, they not present a potential risk to others, unless those others are like-minded and have also chosen not to take the easy precautions. In other words, you doing you is fine, until it impacts other people.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Absolutely, cancer and diabetes are serious health concerns, in some cases are preventable and in many cases are treatable. COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States, and the demonstrated ways to prevent its spread are far easier to manage when compared to cancer and diabetes. I can make a conscious decision to use or not use tobacco and eat or not eat sugary foods, but when we're not able to identify where COVID-19 is or is not, community cooperation is needed to stem the spread of the disease. I'm not suggesting that everyone should stay home and quarantine; for any number of reasons that would be not just impractical but impossible. But there are things we can all do that while inconvenient are not overly burdensome. It's about shared sacrifice in the short term for a long term benefit.

Any person who chooses not to take easy precautions to keep himself/herself from becoming infected, fine, live your life. I just ask that A) if that person becomes infected and needs medical care, they voluntarily go to the end of the line and allow others who need medical care to be treated first, and B) unless that person knows 100% that they are not infected, they not present a potential risk to others, unless those others are like-minded and have also chosen not to take the easy precautions. In other words, you doing you is fine, until it impacts other people.

So are you also saying if I’m diabetic and don’t what my diet or I smoke and get cancer I should also go to the end of the line?

Yes read my posts, me doing me doesn’t affect anyone. As I said I wear a mask
And distance but I will not stay home and do not believe in shut downs.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

Everyone is tired of Covid and grumpy as hell, I get it. The holidays are normally a stressful time and this year the virus has multiplied that X 100.
We will get through this and come out the other side better for it. I have to believe that to keep my sanity. I'm thankful that I have not had any family or friends that have passed from this horrible virus and I'm hoping that continues. Everyone be safe and Happy holidays.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

So are you also saying if I’m diabetic and don’t what my diet or I smoke and get cancer I should also go to the end of the line?

No, what I wrote was pretty clear and applies only to those who willfully ignore COVID-19 precautions and then end up needing medical care after being infected with COVID. For other preventable diseases, there are ways currently being employed that hopefully modify behavior for the greater good. For instance, it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

No, what I wrote was pretty clear and applies only to those who willfully ignore COVID-19 precautions and then end up needing medical care after being infected with COVID. For other preventable diseases, there are ways currently being employed that hopefully modify behavior for the greater good. For instance, it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco.

Then your argument is one sided. What’s the difference if I go out with no mask and contract the virus and i smoke and get cancer. Both cases I put myself willingly at risk.

You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance.

If stated my position over and over I am done here. I will do what I think is right while following the guidelines but I will not stay home, you do what’s right for you. End of story I would force my opinion of you and don’t force yours on me.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance.

Oh, you know how my health insurance policy works, and every other policy that doesn't cover you? My health insurance premium is higher if I use tobacco, no doubt about it, and that's not unusual.

Example:

Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), health insurance premiums are based on the following factors: plan category, the number of individuals on the policy, age, location, and tobacco use. Many insurance companies can factor in tobacco use in order to increase health insurance rates for smokers.


https://www.healthmarkets.com/conten...alth-insurance

If stated my position over and over I am done here. I will do what I think is right while following the guidelines but I will not stay home, you do what’s right for you. End of story I would force my opinion of you and don’t force yours on me.

Well, I don't stay home either, but I am also respectful of other people and do what I reasonably can to keep myself and others healthy. I don't "force" my opinion on people any more than you do. I deal with facts and logic. You and others can freely choose to agree or not or just completely ignore.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Oh, you know how my health insurance policy works, and every other policy that doesn't cover you? My health insurance premium is higher if I use tobacco, no doubt about it, and that's not unusual.

Example:

Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), health insurance premiums are based on the following factors: plan category, the number of individuals on the policy, age, location, and tobacco use. Many insurance companies can factor in tobacco use in order to increase health insurance rates for smokers.


https://www.healthmarkets.com/conten...alth-insurance

Well, I don't stay home either, but I am also respectful of other people and do what I reasonably can to keep myself and others healthy. I don't "force" my opinion on people any more than you do. I deal with facts and logic. You and others can freely choose to agree or not or just completely ignore.

Wow you deal with facts and I don’t. That’s a little self righteous and your posts insinuate you use logic and are correct and I do not.

Sorry I incorrectly assumed you had group coverage of Medicare which do not charge extra for smokers. I didn’t know you have Obamacare.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Then your argument is one sided. What’s the difference if I go out with no mask and contract the virus and i smoke and get cancer. Both cases I put myself willingly at risk.

You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance.

If stated my position over and over I am done here. I will do what I think is right while following the guidelines but I will not stay home, you do what’s right for you. End of story I would force my opinion of you and don’t force yours on me.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

If you get Covid you may affect other people. People with Covid may be totally asymptomatic and unknowingly spread the virus. Even if you get Covid and self quarantine, you still can spread it for a few asymptomatic days. THIS is the major difference between other serious but not communicable disease such as diabetes and cancer.

I don’t know what forcing an opinion on others even means. But I’m also done with this.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Sorry I incorrectly assumed you had group coverage of Medicare which do not charge extra for smokers. I didn’t know you have Obamacare.

Another incorrect assumption. I am not covered by the ACA; I am covered by a private health insurance plan through one of the state's largest employers.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Another incorrect assumption. I am not covered by the ACA; I am covered by a private health insurance plan through one of the state's largest employers.

If you are part of a group plan over 150 employees you are NOT charged for smoking it’s a composite rate for the entire group only based on the type of plan single, employee and spouse, employee and children or family plan. . The ACA guidelines posted are for Obamacare not group policies. Consult your benefits administrator you will see I am correct.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Obviously, these large gatherings mean that some people are coming from outside the home and bringing the virus with them, or the virus is in the home already, and visitors pick it up. Then everyone leaves, some are infected, and they go on to infect other people at the next gathering they attend, not knowing that they’re contagious. Ergo, the only way for this to stop happening is for people to sit in their homes where there are either infected people and it’s contained or the home is clear and stays that way. It’s basic logic. As I said, it’s unrealistic for people to just sit inside their house.

And it includes social gatherings as well. How many weddings have been superspreader events? There was a large increase in the northern plains after Sturgis. And that Biogen conference that kicked things off in Boston may be responsible for over 300,000 infections.

Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Also- for those choosing to do what is "best for me"- does that include all of the sport-playing youth (that you don't know), whom we know are so vigilant about mitigation (ha-ha) , who will be at those large gatherings at home?

We know being young right now isn't what it should be- but putting their families at risk isn't a choice you should be making for them.
Prevailing influence, being what it is, will guide them.

[LoveLakeLife]

Who cares about infection rates? That’s a false marker. People get sick every day. The death rate is what’s important. Remember the goal of flattening the curve for two weeks?

I’m not minimizing the symptoms when people get the virus, but they get better and are not at risk of dying.

It’s a virus. Viruses spread. Don’t be so naive as to think human behavior can ameliorate that. If everyone in the world stood still in their own individual sealed rooms for a month, then maybe. But people are human and they move around and interact. The virus will do what viruses have done for millennia and when it’s over it’s over. Thankfully the vaccine will hasten things.

Finally, “what’s best for me” is a perfectly good and admirable attitude. America is not a collective. It’s millions of individuals competing to make a better standard of living as a consequence of effort and innovation. It’s not Panacea. If wearing a mask and pretending one is a better person because of it makes one feel superior or even just a little better about themselves, so be it. But don’t think that other people see you in that light.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

If you are part of a group plan over 150 employees you are NOT charged for smoking it’s a composite rate for the entire group only based on the type of plan single, employee and spouse, employee and children or family plan. . The ACA guidelines posted are for Obamacare not group policies. Consult your benefits administrator you will see I am correct.

You are not correct and I don’t need to consult the benefits administrator. I have a rates chart for the current year that assigns rates based on several different factors, including full time and part time employees, who is covered (employee only, employee and children, employee and spouse, employee and family), etc. At the bottom of the chart, a note appears stating that a specific dollar amount will be added to the premium for employees enrolled in the health plan who test positive for tobacco or who do not test. The annual premium increase for those who test positive or who do not test is more than $1,100. Will you now be telling me that I’m not really reading what is plainly in front of me? This is for a group plan that covers well over 150 people. The plan that covers me is not by any means unique in this practice.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

You are not correct and I don’t need to consult the benefits administrator. I have a rates chart for the current year that assigns rates based on several different factors, including full time and part time employees, who is covered (employee only, employee and children, employee and spouse, employee and family), etc. At the bottom of the chart, a note appears stating that a specific dollar amount will be added to the premium for employees enrolled in the health plan who test positive for tobacco or who do not test. The annual premium increase for those who test positive or who do not test is more than $1,100. Will you now be telling me that I’m not really reading what is plainly in front of me? This is for a group plan that covers well over 150 people. The plan that covers me is not by any means unique in this practice.

Is this plan a self insured plan by your employer? That would be a completely different ball game.

Look up the law not the ACA or open market coverage which is not applicable here.

I have been purchasing health insurance fir my companies for many years through many law changes.

Currently large employers are all composite rated not based on pre existing conditions and there is no blood test or any other test required to coverage or to determine premium cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Is this plan a self insured plan by your employer? That would be a completely different ball game.

Look up the law not the ACA or open market coverage which is not applicable here.

I have been purchasing health insurance fir my companies for many years through many law changes.

Currently large employers are all composite rated not based on pre existing conditions and there is no blood test or any other test required to coverage or to determine premium cost.

Enough. I stated earlier that “it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco.” Your direct response was “You are wrong about the Heath (sic) insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance.” As much as I can on a public internet forum, I’ve tried to show you that your categorical denial is not correct.

Your subsequent responses (paraphrasing here) have morphed from “well, ok, under Obamacare a tobacco user might pay more,” to “well, maybe if you are not part of a group plan that covers more than 150 people,” and most recently “well, yes, that could be true if you’re covered by an employer self-insured plan even if it’s a group plan that covers more than 150 people.”

So, to put this to bed, can we at least agree that there are some health insurance plans out there that can and do charge higher premiums for tobacco users?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Enough. I stated earlier that “it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco.” Your direct response was “You are wrong about the Heath (sic) insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance.” As much as I can on a public internet forum, I’ve tried to show you that your categorical denial is not correct.

Your subsequent responses (paraphrasing here) have morphed from “well, ok, under Obamacare a tobacco user might pay more,” to “well, maybe if you are not part of a group plan that covers more than 150 people,” and most recently “well, yes, that could be true if you’re covered by an employer self-insured plan even if it’s a group plan that covers more than 150 people.”

So, to put this to bed, can we at least agree that there are some health insurance plans out there that can and do charge higher premiums for tobacco users?

Wow. I am asking legitimate questions from an area I know very well.

Open market health insurance has different guidelines then normal group coverage as do plans that are self insured by the employer.

In typical group coverage which most employers have rates are composite and there are no tests of any kind or questionnaires to answer to obtain coverage.

I was merely trying to ascertain the type of plan your employer offers. I did assume initially you had a traditional non self insured group plan but if that’s not the case fine.

No need to hop on your high horse I asked valid questions and it’s certainly your right to answer or not those questions

Later

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Wow. I am asking legitimate questions from an area I know very well.

Open market health insurance has different guidelines then normal group coverage as do plans that are self insured by the employer.

In typical group coverage which most employers have rates are composite and there are no tests of any kind or questionnaires to answer to obtain coverage.

I was merely trying to ascertain the type of plan your employer offers. I did assume initially you had a traditional non self insured group plan but if that’s not the case fine.

No need to hop on your high horse I asked valid questions and it’s certainly your right to answer or not those questions

Later

The specific issue is not what type of health insurance plan I am covered under. I know what type of plan covers me, and it's not relevant to the question as to whether or not some health insurance plans can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users. The answer to that question is yes.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

The specific issue is not what type of health insurance plan I am covered under. I know what type of plan covers me, and it's not relevant to the question as to whether or not some health insurance plans can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users. The answer to that question is yes.

You are misunderstanding.

The type as far as is the policy through open market, self insured, traditional group coverage which is how your employer obtains the policy not the type of coverage the employee is receiving.

Although your coverage maybe let’s say Blue Cross for example your employer could have obtained it traditionally or Blue Cross can underwrite a self insured plan. If it’s self insured it can have much different rules such as surcharges that traditional policies don’t have. Self insured though exist certainly are not the norm.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are misunderstanding.

The type as far as is the policy through open market, self insured, traditional group coverage which is how your employer obtains the policy not the type of coverage the employee is receiving.

Although your coverage maybe let’s say Blue Cross for example your employer could have obtained it traditionally or Blue Cross can underwrite a self insured plan. If it’s self insured it can have much different rules such as surcharges that traditional policies don’t have. Self insured though exist certainly are not the norm.

No misunderstanding. Let's apply the KISS principle (no insult intended) and stick to the basics.

The term "health insurance" can apply to a large number of different kinds of arrangements. I stated "it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco." You replied "You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance." Since then you have apparently acknowledged that some kinds of health insurance plans, including certain ACA plans and plans where the employer self-insures, can in fact cost more for those who use tobacco. That's it. There's no need to get into different types of health insurance policies to come up with a "yes" answer when the question is whether or not some health insurance plans can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users.

[thinkxingu]

Words to meet post length requirement.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

No misunderstanding. Let's apply the KISS principle (no insult intended) and stick to the basics.

The term "health insurance" can apply to a large number of different kinds of arrangements. I stated "it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco." You replied "You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance." Since then you have apparently acknowledged that some kinds of health insurance plans, including certain ACA plans and plans where the employer self-insures, can in fact cost more for those who use tobacco. That's it. There's no need to get into different types of health insurance policies to come up with a "yes" answer when the question is whether or not some health insurance plans can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users.

I still stand by my statement, experience and professional opinion it is not common.

Enjoy!

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I still stand by my statement, experience and professional opinion it is not common.

Enjoy!

Ah, here all along I was operating under the impression that, based on your personal experience (which is obviously not the same as my personal experience), you were challenging the idea that some health insurance plans have higher premiums for tobacco users. Now it appears that your objection is to my use of the word “common.” Since the definition of that word can be subjective, and because at this point I’m not interested in bringing up statistics to support any particular definition of the word “common,” I think we should just agree to disagree.

Correcting statements that are incorrect regarding objective facts is important because a wider purpose is served; regarding things that are subjective, not so much.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Ah, here all along I was operating under the impression that, based on your personal experience (which is obviously not the same as my personal experience), you were challenging the idea that some health insurance plans have higher premiums for tobacco users. Now it appears that your objection is to my use of the word “common.” Since the definition of that word can be subjective, and because at this point I’m not interested in bringing up statistics to support any particular definition of the word “common,” I think we should just agree to disagree.

Correcting statements that are incorrect regarding objective facts is important because a wider purpose is served; regarding things that are subjective, not so much.

Get over yourself. Maybe you should have been honest and said exactly what classification of insurance your employer has.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Get over yourself. Maybe you should have been honest and said exactly what classification of insurance your employer has.

OMG. How is honesty involved with this? Please explain how the type of health insurance that I have has anything to do with the basic question here: whether or not health insurance premiums can be higher for those who use tobacco, other than that my coverage has such a provision.

Do we agree that some types of health insurance can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users? Simple question, yes or no. A yes answer and we can each go on our separate ways, and simply dispense with any further discussion about how common this is or not.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

OMG. How is honesty involved with this? Please explain how the type of health insurance that I have has anything to do with the basic question here: whether or not health insurance premiums can be higher for those who use tobacco, other than that my coverage has such a provision.

Do we agree that some types of health insurance can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users? Simple question, yes or no. A yes answer and we can each go on our separate ways, and simply dispense with any further discussion about how common this is or not.

I did say that, self insured plans can have surcharges that traditional plans cannot. Refer back to the original posts. Also I stated I assumed you had traditional coverage because in this day and age self insurance is very rare especially for medical insurance.

I also said you should have been more forthcoming and stated the origin of your employers policy.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I did say that, self insured plans can have surcharges that traditional plans cannot. Refer back to the original posts.

So, according to you at a minimum self-insured plans can have a higher premium for tobacco users, and apparently (again, according to you) so can ACA plans and group plans that cover fewer than 150 employees. Thank you.

Also I stated I assumed you had traditional coverage because in this day and age self insurance is very rare especially for medical insurance.

Approximately 54,500 health plans filed a Form 5500 for 2015, an increase of nearly 6 percent from the health plans that filed a Form 5500 for 2014. Of health plans filing a 2015 Form 5500, about 22,900 were self-insured and approximately 3,900 mixed self-insurance with insurance (“mixed-insured”). Self-insured plans that filed a Form 5500 covered approximately 34 million participants in 2015 and held assets totaling about $84 billion. In 2015 there were nearly 26 million participants covered by mixed-insured group health plans; these mixed-insured group health plans held almost $135 billion in assets.

https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/fil...plans-2018.pdf

Very rare indeed. In 2015, 42% of health plans with about 34 million participants reported to the Department of Labor on Form 5500 by employers were disclosed to be fully self-insured. Sorry, a quick search brought me to data only as new as 2015.

I also said you should have been more forthcoming and stated the origin of your employers policy.

The kind of health insurance I have has nothing to do with the simple overall question regarding higher premiums for tobacco users, which for whatever reason you seemed to be having a very hard time answering.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

So, according to you at a minimum self-insured plans can have a higher premium for tobacco users, and apparently (again, according to you) so can ACA plans and group plans that cover fewer than 150 employees. Thank you.

Approximately 54,500 health plans filed a Form 5500 for 2015, an increase of nearly 6 percent from the health plans that filed a Form 5500 for 2014. Of health plans filing a 2015 Form 5500, about 22,900 were self-insured and approximately 3,900 mixed self-insurance with insurance (“mixed-insured”). Self-insured plans that filed a Form 5500 covered approximately 34 million participants in 2015 and held assets totaling about $84 billion. In 2015 there were nearly 26 million participants covered by mixed-insured group health plans; these mixed-insured group health plans held almost $135 billion in assets.

https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/fil...plans-2018.pdf

Very rare indeed. In 2015, 42% of health plans with about 34 million participants reported to the Department of Labor on Form 5500 by employers were disclosed to be fully self-insured. Sorry, a quick search brought me to data only as new as 2015.

The kind of health insurance I have has nothing to do with the simple overall question regarding higher premiums for tobacco users, which for whatever reason you seemed to be having a very hard time answering.

Yes the type has everything to do with this. That’s where this all originated from. If you were honest and forthcoming from the start I would of had all the pertinent information.

You don’t want to give me your plan fine I don’t know what the big secret is it’s not a matter of national security.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Yes the type has everything to do with this. That’s where this all originated from. If you were honest and forthcoming from the start I would of had all the pertinent information.

What pertinent information? You needed to know what type of health plan covers me before you could acknowledge as correct a statement about health care plans in general? Talk about a deflection tactic - because I was not "honest and forthcoming" about my specific situation you couldn't/wouldn't agree that some health insurance plans in general can and do charge higher premiums for tobacco users. That's just nonsense.

You don’t want to give me your plan fine I don’t know what the big secret is it’s not a matter of national security.

No it isn't, but it's also not in any way relevant to this discussion. It’s being used as a smoke screen to try and muddle the issue and recover from a misstatement of fact. Pesky things, those facts, especially when you get them wrong.


Edited to add: here's an idea - perhaps we should go to PM to spare the other readers here the monotony. Feel free to do so.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

What pertinent information? You needed to know what type of health plan covers me before you could acknowledge as correct a statement about health care plans in general? Talk about a deflection tactic - because I was not "honest and forthcoming" about my specific situation you couldn't/wouldn't agree that some health insurance plans in general can and do charge higher premiums for tobacco users. That's just nonsense.

No it isn't, but it's also not in any way relevant to this discussion. It’s being used as a smoke screen to try and muddle the issue and recover from a misstatement of fact. Pesky things, those facts, especially when you get them wrong.

Edited to add: here's an idea - perhaps we should go to PM to spare the other readers here the monotony. Feel free to do so.

The original discussion came about about smoking and you said you were charged extra in your policy for smoking and I said that that was unlikely. If you don’t want to give me the information so I can make an educated response that’s fine that’s your choice.

I’m not asking for personal information about your individual coverage all I’m saying is what type of policy did your company create. Self-insured or traditional, that’s it but you don’t want to answer so that’s fine.have a great night.

By the way I certainly have better things to do than PM you about this

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by joey2665

The original discussion came about about smoking and you said you were charged extra in your policy for smoking and I said that that was unlikely. If you don’t want to give me the information so I can make an educated response that’s fine that’s your choice.

Nope. The original discussion came about because I wrote "For other preventable diseases, there are ways currently being employed that hopefully modify behavior for the greater good. For instance, it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco." You then replied "You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance." Not that it was "unlikely," but that I "was wrong" about higher premiums for tobacco users.

And what do you need to make an educated guess about? I only mentioned my health insurance, after your misstatement of fact, as an example of a plan that does in fact charge higher premiums for tobacco users, contrary to your claim. So, you said that health insurance plans don't charge extra for tobacco use ("That only applies to life insurance") before I mentioned anything about my plan. I wasn't seeking any advice or guidance about my health plan, and yet you for some reason think that details about my health plan are critical to some kind of response from you.

I’m not asking for personal information about your individual coverage all I’m saying is what type of policy did your company create. Self-insured or traditional, that’s it but you don’t want to answer so that’s fine.have a great night.

The information you seem so desperate to have is, again, completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed: in general, are there health insurance plans that can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users. As far as I am concerned, we are now in agreement on that point, yes?

By the way I certainly have better things to do than PM you about this

And yet here you are, 10 posts and nearly 28 hours after you said you were done.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Nope. The original discussion came about because I wrote "For other preventable diseases, there are ways currently being employed that hopefully modify behavior for the greater good. For instance, it's common for health insurance premiums to be more expensive for those who use tobacco." You then replied "You are wrong about the Heath insurance statement. That only applies to life insurance." Not that it was "unlikely," but that I "was wrong" about higher premiums for tobacco users.

And what do you need to make an educated guess about? I only mentioned my health insurance, after your misstatement of fact, as an example of a plan that does in fact charge higher premiums for tobacco users, contrary to your claim. So, you said that health insurance plans don't charge extra for tobacco use ("That only applies to life insurance") before I mentioned anything about my plan. I wasn't seeking any advice or guidance about my health plan, and yet you for some reason think that details about my health plan are critical to some kind of response from you.

The information you seem so desperate to have is, again, completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed: in general, are there health insurance plans that can and do charge a higher premium for tobacco users. As far as I am concerned, we are now in agreement on that point, yes?

And yet here you are, 10 posts and nearly 28 hours after you said you were done.

Deny deny. Wow you have way too much time on your hands.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Biggd]

BIG YAWN!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app