Wolfeboro Dock Expansion

[TiltonBB]

In Tuesday's voting, voters rejected a proposal to spend $300,000 to extend the Wolfeboro town boat docks.

The Warrant article called for an $850,000 bond for repairs and $300,000 for expansion. If the article had passed the middle four fingers would have been extended.

The Economic Development Council had estimated that adding 19 - 24 dock spaces would generate an additional $500,000 per year in spending in town. The council identified 125 businesses within walking distance of the docks that would stand to gain from adding docks.

Maybe in a different year this will pass. The number of boats circling and waiting for docking, especially on weekends, is obviously a negative for the environment.

This happens all over the lake in every town with docking. Maybe someone at a state level could get involved and push for adding to public docks in many locations. This would benefit the boating community as well as businesses in every town with public docks.

[DBreskin]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The Economic Development Council had estimated that adding 19 - 24 dock spaces would generate an additional $500,000 per year in spending in town.

The EDC estimate is based on conjecture with no data. It assumed two people per boat who would spend $100 each during a two-hour stop, and five boats per day per dock space.

There are other estimates with far lower numbers.

[chaseisland]

You can't imagine the size of those $100 ice cream cones!

[AC2717]

To me public dock expansion is a no brainer and all areas with public docks should get expanded. Winni is a travel by boat Lake, not just recreation.

Now to how big the expanse I am not sure.

[thinkxingu]

I'm cool with Wolfeboro's docks staying the same. Other than peak hours, which I'd prefer traffic to be limited in the first place, they've never been a major issue.

I think the only docks I'd like to see expanded are Center Harbor and 19 Mile. And I'd love to see something pop up in Moultonborough/Melvin Village.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Descant]

Adding more dock space for six boats that are waiting may not help. It's like adding another lane to I-93. The drive gets easier and more people start using it and the road is full again. Alternatively, you draw straws to see who stays in the bay with the boat after dropping everybody else off.
Whatever the EDC says, yes, I'd go to more town docks if docking were easier/more available. Our time at various ports has dropped to near zero over the last several years.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Descant

Adding more dock space for six boats that are waiting may not help. It's like adding another lane to I-93. The drive gets easier and more people start using it and the road is full again.

I think that is kind of the point. The town is not that worried about how long you wait for a dock. The additional docking space would help all of the businesses in Wolfeboro and maybe attract more people who come by boat.

I know there have been many times we would have taken the boat to Wolfeboro but went elsewhere because we felt there was a better chance of finding an open dock, or at least a shorter waiting line.

[tis]

Since when does the town of Wolfeboro care about business? Over the years the town has made it very difficult for new businesses to come in the area

[BillJohn]

I use to regularly go to Wolfeboro for groceries, ice cream, lunch, etc. It was a fun way to experience the lake. Today docking around lunchtime has become next to impossible. I can live with waiting in line but I cannot live with the numerous folks who will steal a spot out of turn.

More dock space would mean more money for the business in town. Seems like a simple way to help the local economy at minimal expense to the taxpayer.

[4 for Boating]

Has anyone seen the plans that show what exactly these changes would have looked like? I ask as I find the docks right now rather tight to get into and simply extending them in length out further would seem to make that issue worse.

We used to go over and watch people try to get in and out - crazy especially if someone was backing out from a shoreline spot and it was windy. Large/oversized/wide boats at the end of the pier almost blocks everyone in.

Good place to get your boat ding'd up.

[Descant]

In my mind, I keep going back to Glendale where there has been successful supervision at the docks for over 50 years, at least at peak times. The Wolfeboro Chamber of Commerce, with BOS approval, could hire somebody to be a dockmaster of sorts. Wave people in when there is room for their size boat, make space for larger boats. Post a sign that says docking here is implicit permission for your boat to be moved to make space for others. We used to do this all the time, especially at the Weirs, and in recent years, people have balked at it. A dockmaster could handle that. My recollection is, there is a four hour limit in Wolfeboro, but I'm unaware of any routine patrol to enforce that. A dockmaster could also send low profile boats under the bridge to additional public docks in Back Bay, that I understand are little known or used.
Does Wolfeboro have street parking meters (Weirs does)? Would docking meters help?

[tis]

Originally Posted by 4 for Boating

Has anyone seen the plans that show what exactly these changes would have looked like? I ask as I find the docks right now rather tight to get into and simply extending them in length out further would seem to make that issue worse.

We used to go over and watch people try to get in and out - crazy especially if someone was backing out from a shoreline spot and it was windy. Large/oversized/wide boats at the end of the pier almost blocks everyone in.

Good place to get your boat ding'd up.

Somebody else mentioned that very thing. Maybe it wasn't on here but I did see that.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

In Tuesday's voting, voters rejected a proposal to spend $300,000 to extend the Wolfeboro town boat docks.

The Warrant article called for an $850,000 bond for repairs and $300,000 for expansion. If the article had passed the middle four fingers would have been extended.

The Economic Development Council had estimated that adding 19 - 24 dock spaces would generate an additional $500,000 per year in spending in town. The council identified 125 businesses within walking distance of the docks that would stand to gain from adding docks.

Maybe in a different year this will pass. The number of boats circling and waiting for docking, especially on weekends, is obviously a negative for the environment.

This happens all over the lake in every town with docking. Maybe someone at a state level could get involved and push for adding to public docks in many locations. This would benefit the boating community as well as businesses in every town with public docks.

Perhaps the 125 businesses should pony up the $300K. After all they are the ones that will gain $500K/Yr. They will see a return on their investment in less than 5 years. No need to take the money from taxpayers.

[BillJohn]

Originally Posted by 4 for Boating

Has anyone seen the plans that show what exactly these changes would have looked like? I ask as I find the docks right now rather tight to get into and simply extending them in length out further would seem to make that issue worse.

We used to go over and watch people try to get in and out - crazy especially if someone was backing out from a shoreline spot and it was windy. Large/oversized/wide boats at the end of the pier almost blocks everyone in.

Good place to get your boat ding'd up.

I have sat there in amazement as people plow into other boats. I understand it can be tough at times but going slow is always the answer. I agree of there were more length to the dock there would be more dings but the risk of dings has always been the risk of docking there in the first place. I have been hit many times but lucky for me never had any damage.

[SAB1]

These problems don’t exist in winter and one reason I love winter so much. Jump on your sled and ride.... :-)

[marinewife]

Originally Posted by Descant

In my mind, I keep going back to Glendale where there has been successful supervision at the docks for over 50 years, at least at peak times. The Wolfeboro Chamber of Commerce, with BOS approval, could hire somebody to be a dockmaster of sorts. Wave people in when there is room for their size boat, make space for larger boats. Post a sign that says docking here is implicit permission for your boat to be moved to make space for others. We used to do this all the time, especially at the Weirs, and in recent years, people have balked at it. A dockmaster could handle that. My recollection is, there is a four hour limit in Wolfeboro, but I'm unaware of any routine patrol to enforce that. A dockmaster could also send low profile boats under the bridge to additional public docks in Back Bay, that I understand are little known or used.
Does Wolfeboro have street parking meters (Weirs does)? Would docking meters help?

I have 3 friends who use Back Bay in Wolfeboro with smaller boats and every spot was being used with their name tags on the docks last year. Wolfeboro has a 2 hour parking limit for cars that is monitored and tickets are issued, but there are no meters (yet). EDIT- I mis-spoke, it's not public.

[Dave R]

The smart and simple solution would be a bunch of first come, first served moorings, and launch service. Would not cost much to implement and the fees for the launch service would make it self-sustaining. The size of the mooring balls would indicate the size of the moorings, so they could put a bunch of moorings for 25 feet LOA or less, close together, then a bunch for 35 feet LOA or less, and little further out and further apart etc. I would use the mooring "balls" that have a well for the pennant on tops so it does not heang in the water and get grungy. If the moorings fill, there's nothing stopping anyone from anchoring and using the mooring service.

We use town moorings all the time while cruising the coast. We never bother with the launch service though because we carry a RIB tender on the stern. Don't see many tenders on Winni...

[fatlazyless]

Ya know ...... as long as you leave someone on-board, who stays on the boat, believe it is ok to drop anchor off-shore the town dock in the no-wake zone, and row ashore in the dinghy, which can be carried/wheeled up and onto the shore area while you visit the town on foot.

Certain breeds of dogs like the Portuguese Water Dog who are super-smart, easy to train, and eager to please ..... could probably do a bang-up job of minding the yacht ..... while all the humans head off, to go stuff their face at a local restaurant.

[4 for Boating]

I know each town and docking has its own PROS/CONS but its hard to beat Meredith. Big wide docks that can accommodate most any size boat and room to actually turn around in-between piers if need be. Also things to do/eat right off the docks. Granted maybe not as nice as Wolfeboro in terms of shops.

I'll say this, as boaters towards the other end of the lake, it does not make much sense to try to go to Wolfeboro on a weekend (some 45 min cruise over) when potentially faced with not getting a docking spot and circling around with 20 other boats for over hour. No question in my mind if the situation was improved the town would see more business - if that's what it's looking for.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by AC2717

To me public dock expansion is a no brainer and all areas with public docks should get expanded. Winni is a travel by boat Lake, not just recreation. Now to how big the expanse I am not sure.

The Lake has become boat-busy. Perhaps fewer launch ramps will solve that.

I also haven't seen the proposal, but it seems that the outer docks could be extended at angles.

Y'know, Y-shaped extensions.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by ApS

Y'know, Y-shaped extensions.

..... a Y-shape extension ...... ya know, that is a totally excellent suggestion ..... a Y-shaped extension or a Y-landing ..... which by the way is exactly how the Y-Landing Marina got its' name .... in case you didn't know ..... a Y-landing!

In honor of these new Y-landings down at the end of the Wolfeboro town docks, I hereby propose the name 'Wolfeboro' should be improved by changing it to 'Wolfyboro', as well.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by marinewife

I have 3 friends who use Back Bay in Wolfeboro with smaller boats and every spot was being used with their name tags on the docks last year. Wolfeboro has a 2 hour parking limit for cars that is monitored and tickets are issued, but there are no meters (yet).

Public docks with name tags? How does that work? Is there room back there for more portable docks?

[camp guy]

The overwhelming problem at the Wolfeboro docks is the boat drivers themselves. I have spent a lot of time around these docks watching boat drivers do some incredibly dumb things, and I feel very confident in saying that at no time did the docks themselves move, or cause any of the problems. If a boat captain doesn't know how dock his boat, he shouldn't be driving, if a boat captain is not able to turn around, he shouldn't be driving. Some of these captains don't understand that going very slowly is appropriate when in a tight situation.

I like the idea of maybe "Y-ing" out the extensions, but this shouldn't relieve the captain of knowing how to be a captain.

[tis]

The question is what will the state allow?

[BillJohn]

Originally Posted by camp guy

The overwhelming problem at the Wolfeboro docks is the boat drivers themselves. I have spent a lot of time around these docks watching boat drivers do some incredibly dumb things, and I feel very confident in saying that at no time did the docks themselves move, or cause any of the problems. If a boat captain doesn't know how dock his boat, he shouldn't be driving, if a boat captain is not able to turn around, he shouldn't be driving. Some of these captains don't understand that going very slowly is appropriate when in a tight situation.

I like the idea of maybe "Y-ing" out the extensions, but this shouldn't relieve the captain of knowing how to be a captain.

I recall watching someone having a terrible time docking so I ran over to help. I told them to throw their lines and both looked at me as if I said something in another language so I said your ropes. Both replied we did not bring any. I just walked away.

On another occasion, a pontoon boat could not dock, managed to get himself bow to dock as people rushed to help. What does the captain do? He goes full throttle into the dock. Luckily no one was hurt.

I guess we all had to learn somewhere.

[Wentworth06]

I’m for more dock space. Gives me more to laugh at all summer. Last year I saw a girl fall right out of their boat. Beer cans and all. Nothing funnier than the boat drivers and passengers at wolfeboro s docks. Add more and it will multiply my laughter.

[TheTimeTraveler]

I expect the price of gas to be $1 to $2 per gallon higher this summer than it was last summer.

With that said, I would think that boat traffic may be down a bit, and therefore docking spaces all over the lake may be a bit more plentiful (let's hope!).

[Descant]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

I expect the price of gas to be $1 to $2 per gallon higher this summer than it was last summer.

With that said, I would think that boat traffic may be down a bit, and therefore docking spaces all over the lake may be a bit more plentiful (let's hope!).

I think the contrary. Boaters will head straight to a destination, park and stay as long as allowed instead of buying sandwiches and ice cream and going cruising. Actually, as long as we don't have fuel shortages, I don't think the price matters that much to many people.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

I expect the price of gas to be $1 to $2 per gallon higher this summer than it was last summer.

With that said, I would think that boat traffic may be down a bit, and therefore docking spaces all over the lake may be a bit more plentiful (let's hope!).

Gas for the boat is pretty short money compared to the cost of boat ownership on the lake overall (slip, boat maintenance, boat cost). I suspect boating traffic is relatively insensitive to the price of gas.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

I expect the price of gas to be $1 to $2 per gallon higher this summer than it was last summer.

With that said, I would think that boat traffic may be down a bit, and therefore docking spaces all over the lake may be a bit more plentiful (let's hope!).

I definitely disagree. Your spending all that money on a big boat payment docking winter storage ect. A dollar or 2 a gallon isn’t going to keep people home.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Wentworth06]

It will not keep anyone home. With all the stimulus money out there and PPP money , a hike in prices will not keep people from having fun. Never has in the past . People today feel entitled to having fun and spending money.

[jeffk]

I found the easy way to deal with crowding is to adjust your schedule. Go to town for breakfast and then wander around and shop. Or go over around 10, walk around and shop, grab an early lunch and done. Or go over at 2, grab a late lunch and shop. Avoid major holiday weekends completely.

As to all the money to be made, while I may be in Wolfeboro many times during the summer, I rarely buy anything but meals or ice cream. I don't need souvenirs or "lake" gifts/decor, having most of what I need already.

I would ponder whether most visitors to the lake actually travel by boat? Even if they rent a lakeshore home, do they have a boat or do they travel around by car? Most people that visit are not staying where they could leave a boat in the water all week, even if they have one.

To finish it off, since I live here, I almost never go boating on the weekend anymore. The crowding on the lake is insane and boaters that understand and obey boating laws and observe courtesy seem to be almost extinct. Common sense is VERY uncommon as you see people tubing their kids on plane through a crowd of other boats that are zipping in all directions. I might do an EARLY breakfast run on the weekend and then off the lake until the weekdays.

[tis]

You wouldn't think so but the last couple of times gas got high it definitely DID affect the amount of boat traffic on the lake. Ask any marina.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Perhaps the 125 businesses should pony up the $300K. After all they are the ones that will gain $500K/Yr. They will see a return on their investment in less than 5 years. No need to take the money from taxpayers.

That's an excellent idea... wonder why those businesses don't take this into their own hands and pay for it? It would only cost them $2400 each...

[Descant]

Originally Posted by tis

You wouldn't think so but the last couple of times gas got high it definitely DID affect the amount of boat traffic on the lake. Ask any marina.

I think partially true. In ~2009 gas sales were down. However, it wasn't just the price of gas, it was general recession. There were slips for rent with no takers, foreclosures on both boats and slips and a lot of boats that never came out of shrink wrap. That could all happen again, but not this year.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Descant

I think partially true. In ~2009 gas sales were down. However, it wasn't just the price of gas, it was general recession. There were slips for rent with no takers, foreclosures on both boats and slips and a lot of boats that never came out of shrink wrap. That could all happen again, but not this year.

I agree with you but high gas prices helped fuel the recession, don't you think?

[Descant]

Originally Posted by tis

I agree with you but high gas prices helped fuel the recession, don't you think?

Again, partially agree. General recession, yes. Those boaters who were still buying gas didn't slow down much. In fact, where they might have bought less often in the past, according to the manager at the time at MVYC, people were filling up more frequently to stave off what they expected to be more expensive
prices next time. So, there was more gas stored in boats than might previously have been the case. In a recession, some people buy gold, some buy gas.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Perhaps the 125 businesses should pony up the $300K. After all they are the ones that will gain $500K/Yr. They will see a return on their investment in less than 5 years. No need to take the money from taxpayers.

That is not the way the system works. Where do you start and where do you end a policy like this?

The businesses are New Hampshire taxpayers. They already pay into the system. If their tax dollars are used to build roads and bridges to enable customers to drive to their store what about facilities for boaters patronizing their stores by boat? Also, in some situations they collect the NH Rooms and Meals Tax which would increase with higher revenue..

Just curious: Would you say the same thing about people with children in schools? They should pay the entire cost because they are the people who benefit?

If you have no drivers license should you be responsible for paying for highway upkeep?

What about the Fire Department? At the end of the year divide the costs up and bill only the people who used their services?

[Descant]

TiltonBB, I think bringing schools and Fire Depts into the discussion is a pretty big stretch. Outdoorsman is right. If 125 Wolfeboro businesses want to chip in and do something more to help their businesses, they are free to do so. They could call themselves something unique, like say, "Chamber of Commerce". They could even have fireworks on Sundays nights to bring in customers. Their choice, and they'll know when to start and stop.

[jeffk]

It's not that schools and fire departments are businesses but the broader principle of "the people who benefit are the ones who should pay for it" is continually discussed, OR the variation of that idea, since "I" don't benefit from it, "I" don't want my taxes raised to pay for it. It's a bad idea to entertain this "divide and conquer" approach to community needs.

Further, it is an incorrect idea that businesses aren't already paying "extra" into the tax pot. They pay property tax, either directly or through rent, and I think it is correct to say that business property is usually valued higher than personal property because of its ability to generate income. It's like it has a good business "view". Further, business is generating jobs and all the people it employs are paying property tax on their domiciles. Businesses also tend to contribute to charitable efforts and community support and sponsorships. When special town events happen, it is rare that they happen without any business financial support.

In addition, profitable businesses pay the business profits tax. That doesn't remain local but it is used to fund the state.

Extending the docks is comparable to widening or otherwise improving a road. It is a common use action supported by taxes paid by all. It is completely legitimate to reject the improvement or to approve it. As issues needing tax support become important enough or generate enough popular support, they usually get funded.

[Dblblkdiam]

Love having a smaller boat, never a wait in the back bay docks

[XCR-700]

Many interesting perspectives.

Mine is that compared to some places, Winnipesaukee docks are ridiculously under capacity.

From what I can tell, that is mostly driven by the people who live there, they just dont want the traffic. And as the residents of those towns, I think they have a legitimate say in this. This is to some degree in conflict with the state position on access to public waters, but we could debate that one until the forum blows up.

Bottom line, most towns on Winnipesaukee will not ever be making significant capacity changes to public dock space, even though demand for such space will never be met.

Its an unfortunate conflict.

As others have said, most disappointing is the behavior of too many boaters using these docks.

I will even give a pass to the totally incompetent, as they are not intentionally acting badly.

Whereas some boaters are quite clearly and intentionally arrogant, inconsiderate, and dangerous. Given what I have seen over the years, I'm surprised there has not been some really violent altercations.

I hope to never witness an actual brawl or shooting or worse, but based on what I have observed, I feel certain its just a matter of time. And I do believe that even a modest of increased dock space would help make a big difference.

Any more than that is probably not practical as just doubling the length of the docks will not help, the space between most of the Winnipesaukee docks is just too narrow for todays boats. And I dont see any town ripping out all their docks and building completely new docks.

Well thats my 2 cents worth.

[Descant]

0.01 not 0.02

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

That is not the way the system works. Where do you start and where do you end a policy like this?



Just curious: Would you say the same thing about people with children in schools? They should pay the entire cost because they are the people who benefit?

If you have no drivers license should you be responsible for paying for highway upkeep?

What about the Fire Department? At the end of the year divide the costs up and bill only the people who used their services?

I doubt you will ever see this post but, I will address it anyway.... Even though I think you are provoking me....

The businesses are New Hampshire taxpayers. They already pay into the system. If their tax dollars are used to build roads and bridges to enable customers to drive to their store what about facilities for boaters patronizing their stores by boat? Also, in some situations they collect the NH Rooms and Meals Tax which would increase with higher revenue..

Vehicle Registration/inspection, Gas Tax, Tolls on 93/US3/95 etc. , this is the bulk of your road tax. This is why they have an OHRV Tax credit on your tax return for boats and all other OHRV's.

Just curious: Would you say the same thing about people with children in schools? They should pay the entire cost because they are the people who benefit?

Please do not throw your Leftist political view in this. Police/Fire and education do not belong in this discussion.

If you have no drivers license should you be responsible for paying for highway upkeep?

See above about where the funding comes from.

What about the Fire Department? At the end of the year divide the costs up and bill only the people who used their services?

Again, see above.

This is not about who uses what service. It is more about taking from one coffer to fill another..... Kinda like "spread the wealth".

[XCR-700]

Outdoorsman, attempting to avoid any personal matters in your post, I will chime in and hope not to get flamed out for my position on the items you raise.

Virtually everyone benefits from roads/highways even if they personally never drive or have never been driven on a road as all the goods they consume come in via vehicle driving them in to the stores they are purchased from. The same with schools and police and fire and such, every person benefits from their existence even if they never actually used these services, as the people who they do business with make use of them.

So in that regard, everyone who visits or lives in a waterfront town benefits from quality public docks with sufficient capacity to service its users.

Its not the same as share the wealth by any means, but the concept of shared costs and benefits of public infrastructure has similarities.

And please do not take this to mean I support unlimited spending on public infrastructure, reasonable capacity and other limits need to be carefully assessed, as you will also buy maintenance for these items. Finding a balance between building in extra capacity for reasonable future growth and ending up with excess capacity that very few benefit from can be tricky.

Again, interesting discussion, just wish all such threads didn't become personally insulting battlegrounds.

ATB

[fatlazyless]

Here's my suggestion ...... instead of increasing the size of the public town docks around the lake ...... is better to limit the size of the boat allowed on the lake!

My proposal; limit boat use to a 14' aluminum, vee hull, open boat with a 15-hp tiller handle outboard.

Besides using the outboard, it can also get rowed by two rowers with four oar locks and four oars.

Say hey ...... is there a need for bigger docks ...... probably not if everyone can only have this 14' boat! .....

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Here's my suggestion ...... instead of increasing the size of the public town docks around the lake ...... is better to limit the size of the boat allowed on the lake!

My proposal; limit boat use to a 14' aluminum, vee hull, open boat with a 15-hp tiller handle outboard.

Besides using the outboard, it can also get rowed by two rowers with four oar locks and four oars.

Say hey ...... is there a need for bigger docks ...... probably not if everyone can only have this 14' boat! .....

My proposal is to limit stupid proposals that just use up forum space and are only intended to annoy other posters.

But then I think this is the interweb and its most common use is to host stupid posts to annoy others, so maybe the most productive solution is that we should simply tax each and every post and use the funds to build bigger docks.

God Bless the interweb and god bless the posters on the winnipesaukee Forum, god knows we need the help!

[fatlazyless]

......... 14' vee hull w/ Evinrude 15-hp two stroke ...... somewhere out west on a large lake ....... www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzaTvLALsl8 ...... just picture yourself holding that tiller handle on this rig ..... as it bounces along here on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE..... planing out from crowded Wolfeboro Bay ..... out past Rattlesnake Island and further north.

Just think .... big enough to hit the big lake ... small enough to always fit in at any public town dock ..... including the Centre Harbor town docks ..... because it can get backed right in there ...... with its 66" wide stern transom tied with both stern corners tied to their dock which makes it stable enough to step across the transom and onto the dock .... there you go ... that was easy! ...

Lake Winnipesaukee don't need no bigger docks ..... what you need is a SMALLER boat! ....

[tis]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Outdoorsman, attempting to avoid any personal matters in your post, I will chime in and hope not to get flamed out for my position on the items you raise.

Virtually everyone benefits from roads/highways even if they personally never drive or have never been driven on a road as all the goods they consume come in via vehicle driving them in to the stores they are purchased from. The same with schools and police and fire and such, every person benefits from their existence even if they never actually used these services, as the people who they do business with make use of them.

So in that regard, everyone who visits or lives in a waterfront town benefits from quality public docks with sufficient capacity to service its users.

Its not the same as share the wealth by any means, but the concept of shared costs and benefits of public infrastructure has similarities.

And please do not take this to mean I support unlimited spending on public infrastructure, reasonable capacity and other limits need to be carefully assessed, as you will also buy maintenance for these items. Finding a balance between building in extra capacity for reasonable future growth and ending up with excess capacity that very few benefit from can be tricky.

Again, interesting discussion, just wish all such threads didn't become personally insulting battlegrounds.

ATB

So the boaters that aren't from Wolfeboro that want to use the docks should chip in instead of just making the Wolfeboro taxpayer pay?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by tis

So the boaters that aren't from Wolfeboro that want to use the docks should chip in instead of just making the Wolfeboro taxpayer pay?

Wolfeboro could charge people to use the docks during busy times and easily make enough money to maintain, improve and expand them. Charge $.25 per foot LOA per hour with a 1 hour minimum and 3 hour maximum during peak times. There's about 1320 linear feet of usable dock space, so say they can fill 1200 feet, that's 300 bucks an hour. Pay a couple of people 15 bucks an hour to manage the docks and collect the money and the town would still be making at least 250 bucks an hour when the docks are full. Realistically, they could probably double the rate and still fill the docks. They could even put the dock space on Dockwa and let people reserve and pay ahead of time with the app. I use Dockwa all the time to reserve docks and moorings, it's brilliant.

[Cal Coon]

I hate to say this, but the reality is that the town docks just aren't big enough for the amount of traffic it carries (mostly) on weekends. I don't think Monday through Friday is as much of a problem, but we all know for a fact that wkends are a zoo!! I don't think it matters how much you expand any docks in any town on the lake, it will never be enough (on weekends), and you obviously can't enlarge the lake. It's not the money, or who pays for the expansion, it's the congestion that's the problem. It's the same problem Boston, and the surrounding areas have experienced since its settlement. It was originally built for horse and buggy. It was NEVER meant to carry the amount of traffic/congestion we have today, same as the lake. The difference is you can "expand" the roadways, byways, and highways surrounding the city, even though that creates it's own set of nightmare problems in itself, and will probably never be "big" enough to handle today's congestion anyways. The only "solution" to this problem on the lake, is to set limits on something, (ie: number of boats allowed on the lake, size of boats allowed on lake, etc,etc...), which we all know will most likely never happen as long as we remain the "live free or die" state. So, in the end, there really is no solution to this problem that keeps everybody happy, unfortunately. Someone, or something will have to suffer. I hope I'm wrong, we shall see. My own personal solution to this problem is to stay away from town docks on weekends. It works great!! I don't want to go places on my boat that i can go in my car...

[Cal Coon]

Remember the (not so old) cliche: "If you build it, they will come"...

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by tis

So the boaters that aren't from Wolfeboro that want to use the docks should chip in instead of just making the Wolfeboro taxpayer pay?

Well, in a way they are contributing. The people on boats go into town and buy things and that enables the businesses to survive, pay their taxes, and employ people who pay their taxes. I know many of the employees are local residents.

If you took away the summer boater business income from the many small stores in Wolfeboro I am sure they would struggle. Like most of the lake oriented businesses, they depend on the 8 to 10 week summer season to make it through the year.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Wolfeboro could charge people to use the docks during busy times and easily make enough money to maintain, improve and expand them. Charge $.25 per foot LOA per hour with a 1 hour minimum and 3 hour maximum during peak times. There's about 1320 linear feet of usable dock space, so say they can fill 1200 feet, that's 300 bucks an hour. Pay a couple of people 15 bucks an hour to manage the docks and collect the money and the town would still be making at least 250 bucks an hour when the docks are full. Realistically, they could probably double the rate and still fill the docks. They could even put the dock space on Dockwa and let people reserve and pay ahead of time with the app. I use Dockwa all the time to reserve docks and moorings, it's brilliant.

Assumne a 24
boat. You want to charge $6.00 so I can run in from Barndoor Sunday am to get a box of doughnuts and a paper? Too expensive. I think you'd get a lot of resistance from merchants and residents. A token amount, like parking meters might be better received. The goal should be to increase the efficiency of use, not to be punitive.

[DBreskin]

Originally Posted by Descant

Assumne a 24
boat. You want to charge $6.00 so I can run in from Barndoor Sunday am to get a box of doughnuts and a paper? Too expensive. I think you'd get a lot of resistance from merchants and residents. A token amount, like parking meters might be better received. The goal should be to increase the efficiency of use, not to be punitive.

One dock could be designated as free with a 15-minute limit. Enforcement might be a challenge.

[thinkxingu]

Am I the only one who thinks all is good in Wolfeboro? Plenty of docks for most days and a natural crowd limiter for others. Free, safe, clean...I've visited a dozen or more times each of the last seven summers and have never had an issue.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

So the boaters that aren't from Wolfeboro that want to use the docks should chip in instead of just making the Wolfeboro taxpayer pay?

They are paying for it, when they register their boats, when they buy gas, when they buy goods.

Its not rocket science,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Cal Coon

I hate to say this, but the reality is that the town docks just aren't big enough for the amount of traffic it carries (mostly) on weekends. I don't think Monday through Friday is as much of a problem, but we all know for a fact that wkends are a zoo!! I don't think it matters how much you expand any docks in any town on the lake, it will never be enough (on weekends), and you obviously can't enlarge the lake. It's not the money, or who pays for the expansion, it's the congestion that's the problem. It's the same problem Boston, and the surrounding areas have experienced since its settlement. It was originally built for horse and buggy. It was NEVER meant to carry the amount of traffic/congestion we have today, same as the lake. The difference is you can "expand" the roadways, byways, and highways surrounding the city, even though that creates it's own set of nightmare problems in itself, and will probably never be "big" enough to handle today's congestion anyways. The only "solution" to this problem on the lake, is to set limits on something, (ie: number of boats allowed on the lake, size of boats allowed on lake, etc,etc...), which we all know will most likely never happen as long as we remain the "live free or die" state. So, in the end, there really is no solution to this problem that keeps everybody happy, unfortunately. Someone, or something will have to suffer. I hope I'm wrong, we shall see. My own personal solution to this problem is to stay away from town docks on weekends. It works great!! I don't want to go places on my boat that i can go in my car...

I no longer boat on Winnipesaukee on Saturdays in the summer as its virtually impossible to get on any town dock, or anchor at a sandbar or even drive safely without constant concern.

Weekdays are MUCH better, but try to get on a Wolfeboro dock on a Wednesday between 11:30 - 1:30, you will still wait.

And it was NOT better last summer even with the COVID.

There is clearly a problem.

What if anything will be done, at the moment it looks like nothing, and still people are undeterred, they are just more impatient - arrogant - dangerous.

I will wait maybe 20 minutes, after that we move on, and hope for a better experience next time.

Having a slightly larger boat (27') I am sometimes picky about what dock space I want to tie up on and will pass up a spot occasionally and wave a smaller boat through ahead of us. I work hard to make sure I dont cut anyone else off/jump ahead in the line while waiting, unfortunately I am seeing more and more people just ignoring any etiquette and bypassing people who have been waiting much longer. Sometimes they say nothing, somethings they argue that they were waiting longer knowing they are BSing. Its getting really bad in the last few years,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Am I the only one who thinks all is good in Wolfeboro? Plenty of docks for most days and a natural crowd limiter for others. Free, safe, clean...I've visited a dozen or more times each of the last seven summers and have never had an issue.

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I need to get a copy of your schedule, as clearly I am timing my trips wrong,,,

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I need to get a copy of your schedule, as clearly I am timing my trips wrong,,,

Most times we visit are just after lunch, 2 o'clock or so, weekdays and weekends. Sure, there's a wait sometimes but not nearly enough to make a big deal about it and, were there much more docking, I wouldn't want to be in the crowds anyway. As it is, once the docks are full on a nice day, everything's a wait, and I just can't imagine how cluttered it would be with more.

I guess it's my same philosophy as at sand bars.

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[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Descant

Assumne a 24
boat. You want to charge $6.00 so I can run in from Barndoor Sunday am to get a box of doughnuts and a paper? Too expensive. I think you'd get a lot of resistance from merchants and residents. A token amount, like parking meters might be better received. The goal should be to increase the efficiency of use, not to be punitive.

My idea was a way to come up with the money to expand the docks that some people feel are inadequately-sized (the original subject of this thread). Since the town did not want to pay for it with tax revenue out of the general fund, charging those that use the docks during busy times a little fee seems like a logical solution.

My experience on Sunday at "newspaper and doughnuts o'clock" has been that the docks are not at all busy, so under my plan, there would not be anyone collecting money and you would still dock for free.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Wolfeboro could charge people to use the docks during busy times and easily make enough money to maintain, improve and expand them. Charge $.25 per foot LOA per hour with a 1 hour minimum and 3 hour maximum during peak times. There's about 1320 linear feet of usable dock space, so say they can fill 1200 feet, that's 300 bucks an hour. Pay a couple of people 15 bucks an hour to manage the docks and collect the money and the town would still be making at least 250 bucks an hour when the docks are full. Realistically, they could probably double the rate and still fill the docks. They could even put the dock space on Dockwa and let people reserve and pay ahead of time with the app. I use Dockwa all the time to reserve docks and moorings, it's brilliant.

It seems that the problem is the summertime crowding. Your solution says that the answer is to create yet another fee that requires complex management and hiring people to administer it. Further, it sends a message that Wolfeboro isn't happy with all the money being spent by all its visitors and is going to gouge more out of them.

There are other issues created by summertime crowding as well. For example, police coverage. More people requires more police coverage in the summer for many purposes. Should Wolfeboro charge a summer "Police" fee when you come into town to defray the extra summertime costs of policing? After all, why should the residents pay more in taxes for this? They already pay the cost for the nominal police coverage THEY need.

The EXISTING solution is the property tax system. WHEN the voters or their reps decide that the existing docking is insufficient and it is in the general interest of the town to expand the docks, they will fund it and taxes, including those on businesses, will cover the cost. The businesses will indirectly pass on to visitors the extra tax costs in their prices and the visitors will happily pay it. Residents will pay the increase and might consider the costs required to live in a lively and prosperous resort town.

I might point out that Meredith expanded and improved their docks a ways back and there are no "docking meters" there. Further, there are STILL a lot of boats waiting for spots on busy weekend afternoons proving that demand is still increasing and outstrips supply. Considering that the docks are almost completely empty for 6 months of the year it is a valid question of how much effort and expense should be put into a time limited (summertime) and perhaps insolvable problem. It's an issue of Return on Investment and perhaps the current situation is a good balance. Perhaps not. Either way, IMO, it's a matter for the town government and the existing property tax system to manage.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Most times we visit are just after lunch, 2 o'clock or so, weekdays and weekends. Sure, there's a wait sometimes but not nearly enough to make a big deal about it and, were there much more docking, I wouldn't want to be in the crowds anyway. As it is, once the docks are full on a nice day, everything's a wait, and I just can't imagine how cluttered it would be with more.

I guess it's my same philosophy as at sand bars.

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If you added docking, for even another 20 boats, and every boat had an average of 4 people onboard it would only add about 80 people in the downtown area. (and some people will just be sitting on their boats)

It was stated that there are roughly 125 businesses within walking distance of the docks. I don't think adding less than one person per business will have any significant impact.

Originally Posted by XCR-700

I need to get a copy of your schedule, as clearly I am timing my trips wrong,,,

I agree. 8 out of 10 times when I go to Wolfeboro there is a significant wait.

PS. XCR Please stop posting that cartoon. Three times in this thread is enough and it adds nothing to the discussion.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

If you added docking, for even another 20 boats, and every boat had an average of 4 people onboard it would only add about 80 people in the downtown area. (and some people will just be sitting on their boats)

It was stated that there are roughly 125 businesses within walking distance of the docks. I don't think adding less than one person per business will have any significant impact.


I agree. 8 out of 10 times when I go to Wolfeboro there is a significant wait.

PS. XCR Please stop posting that cartoon. Three times in this thread is enough and it adds nothing to the discussion.

How many businesses are people actually going to? I'm confident boaters aren't floating up to the docks to hit up the real estate office. It's probably more like 20 restaurants, ice cream stands, and clothing shops.

And my concern isn't just the downtown crowd, but the docks themselves. As someone above mentioned, Meredith has a bunch and they still have a wait—more docks = more interest—at prime time, there will always be a wait.

I'm of the "expanding things isn't always the solution" crowd. Lord knows how town, state, and national parks got destroyed this year from expanded use.

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[tis]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

How many businesses are people actually going to? I'm confident boaters aren't floating up to the docks to hit up the real estate office. It's probably more like 20 restaurants, ice cream stands, and clothing shops.

And my concern isn't just the downtown crowd, but the docks themselves. As someone above mentioned, Meredith has a bunch and they still have a wait—more docks = more interest—at prime time, there will always be a wait.

I'm of the "expanding things isn't always the solution" crowd. Lord knows how town, state, and national parks got destroyed this year from expanded use.

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I agree with you that it would be interesting to see how much and how many businesses actually benefit from the boats docking and also agree that there would still be a wait no matter how many docks they add. I imagine the Yum Yum and Black's and the restaurants, ice cream, and hotdogs stands are the biggest benefactors. Sure, people might buy clothes etc. but not every weekend.

[BoatHouse]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Am I the only one who thinks all is good in Wolfeboro? Plenty of docks for most days and a natural crowd limiter for others. Free, safe, clean...I've visited a dozen or more times each of the last seven summers and have never had an issue.

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I have the same experience as you and I go to the Wolfeboro docks often. 2-3 times per day depending on what the family and our guests want to do.

Yum Yum shop in the morning for coffee and pastries? Sure lets go! Had the band start playing God Bless America one Memorial day morning! What a great experience.

I know we just got back from the Yum Yum shop, but Mom wants an omelette from the DTGC. Untie the boat, I'll be right back!

Check the PO box for mail on a Saturday before the Post Office closes? Right away.(For the record, I have never received anything but junk mail, but love checking)

Dad, can we go to Blacks or Mountain Tops to look at T-Shirts? No Problem!

Nolan's for pizza? Oh yeah! Hey look, the Senator from another state had the same idea.

My Favorite - I know we just anchored at Braun Bay, but do you mind heading back to Wolfeboro so we can get Waffle Fries at the Dockside. Oh, OK.(Before anyone mentions it, I know Braun Bay is on the other side of the lake. I find it humorous when my family/guests think it only takes 15 minutes to get from any point to another.)

Most days other than 4th of July weekend, I can get a spot within 10 minutes. Even at lunch time. 4th of July weekend, it may take 25 minutes and I usually have to let my crew off while I wait my turn for a spot.

I have a 22' bow rider and have found that if you don't mind going deeper into the docks, you can find a spot pretty quick. I have never been blocked into a spot by a larger boat.

Maybe it's people like me that are the problem. Sorry about that!

Point is, with proper planning/timing and setting the right expectations, I find I can get a spot any day of the season.

[winterh]

Other than weekends I do not see a problem at the docks and I agree that during prime time you could extend the docks into the broads and they would still be full. After 20 years I use the crowds to my advantage. I drop everyone off and go for a relaxing, private cruise around the bay. I enjoy that more than my 500th trip into Blacks and they always bring me a Baileys cone when I pick them up. Win, win for all.

[Patofnaud]

IMHO Center Harbor does it right, just have someone from the town pointing out open spots and being a traffic director/advisor.

You could even use 0 cost Explorer Scouts assigned to the local police station be the monitors. Like Merideth uses for the boat ramps.

The problem at Wolfboro is that the docks are deep and the spars narrow so folks waffle / argue on who can fit where.

Alton, Wears, Merideth not so much an issue, as you can see exactly what is open. Alton is one boat deep, Weirs is messed up and too narrow to fit 2 boats deep so it is by default one boat deep and Merideth is so wide you can turn around between the spars.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Most times we visit are just after lunch, 2 o'clock or so, weekdays and weekends. Sure, there's a wait sometimes but not nearly enough to make a big deal about it and, were there much more docking, I wouldn't want to be in the crowds anyway. As it is, once the docks are full on a nice day, everything's a wait, and I just can't imagine how cluttered it would be with more.

I guess it's my same philosophy as at sand bars.

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We often try to go to Meredith, Wolfeboro or Alton Bay for lunch, arriving on a weekday between 11:30 - 1:00 and of all the towns we visit, even during the middle of the week, we never find dock space in Wolfeboro without a wait. If the wait is too long, we give up and take our business somewhere else. If Wolfeboro and its residents and businesses dont care about a few customers taking their shopping and lunch dollars somewhere else, I guess I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either, as we can always just bring our food with us and drop anchor and still enjoy the lake without emptying our wallets. I'm good either way, it really wont have a huge impact on me, it just seems like a loss for everyone that you have a means by which to generate revenue and chose not to capitalize on it. As they say, it is what it is,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

PS. XCR Please stop posting that cartoon. Three times in this thread is enough and it adds nothing to the discussion.

Is it equal to or more annoying than the posts by FLL ;-)

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

How many businesses are people actually going to? I'm confident boaters aren't floating up to the docks to hit up the real estate office. It's probably more like 20 restaurants, ice cream stands, and clothing shops.

And my concern isn't just the downtown crowd, but the docks themselves. As someone above mentioned, Meredith has a bunch and they still have a wait—more docks = more interest—at prime time, there will always be a wait.

I'm of the "expanding things isn't always the solution" crowd. Lord knows how town, state, and national parks got destroyed this year from expanded use.

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Actually we look at as many real estate offices as we can on each trip and bring friends and show them what they could have if they relocated to the Winnipesaukee area. Granted many people are not interested in water access to real estate offices, but I really enjoy visiting them and considering the possibilities.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

I agree with you that it would be interesting to see how much and how many businesses actually benefit from the boats docking and also agree that there would still be a wait no matter how many docks they add. I imagine the Yum Yum and Black's and the restaurants, ice cream, and hotdogs stands are the biggest benefactors. Sure, people might buy clothes etc. but not every weekend.

Actually my wife and her guests hit virtually every clothing shop in Wolfeboro when we are there and even the shoe store by the bridge!

Lat summer one of our guests bought a large picture at one of the galleries and we hauled that damn thing around i the boat all day, it was kinda funny.

My wife is especially fond of the Martin gallery, but we do stop by several other non-clothing stores on most trips. Not saying we fill the boat each trip, but our guests have had items shipped to home and the local shops are always a pleasure to work with. Always friendly and helpful, as opposed to similar shops in big cities where you always get a cold vibe and they seem put out if you dont end up buying anything.

We LOVE Wolfeboro as a stop by boat, it might be our favorite destination on the lake.

[tis]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually my wife and her guests hit virtually every clothing shop in Wolfeboro when we are there and even the shoe store by the bridge!

Lat summer one of our guests bought a large picture at one of the galleries and we hauled that damn thing around i the boat all day, it was kinda funny.

My wife is especially fond of the Martin gallery, but we do stop by several other non-clothing stores on most trips. Not saying we fill the boat each trip, but our guests have had items shipped to home and the local shops are always a pleasure to work with. Always friendly and helpful, as opposed to similar shops in big cities where you always get a cold vibe and they seem put out if you dont end up buying anything.

We LOVE Wolfeboro as a stop by boat, it might be our favorite destination on the lake.

But they don't buy clothes or paintings every weekend. I'm not saying boaters don't buy, I am just saying you can only buy so many clothes in a week. It's not as much of a repeat thing as donuts and food.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by tis

But they don't buy clothes or paintings every weekend. I'm not saying boaters don't buy, I am just saying you can only buy so many clothes in a week. It's not as much of a repeat thing as donuts and food.

No argument here, its a smorgasbord, a little bit of everything.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Is it equal to or more annoying than the posts by FLL ;-)

Much much much more annoying.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I definitely disagree. Your spending all that money on a big boat payment docking winter storage ect. A dollar or 2 a gallon isn’t going to keep people home.

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One thing I hate with high gas prices on the lakes is it encourages folks to haul gasoline by hand to their boats. Sometimes in improper containers. It’s just an accident waiting happen, including spillage into the lake.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Is it equal to or more annoying than the posts by FLL ;-)

You know that a 14' v-hull open boat will have three thwarts or bench seats, so is very doable to install six oar locks with six wood oars for a total of three rowers to row the boat ...... all together now ...... gently across Lake Winipesaukee ..... row, row, row.

The real problem with this shortage of public dock space is NOT that the docks are too small. The real problem here is that the boats are too BIG.

A 14' v-hull open boat is perfectly capable to go anywhere on the lake, and can be either rowed by two or three, or motored by one. Is a little large for one person to row except for a short distance but it is good to row for two or three.

A 14' v-hull aluminum boat with nothing in it including no motor attached and no gasoline tank weighs about 225-lbs for just the boat. It measures 14'2' x 5'2"-transom with a mid-section beam of 5'6" and has three thwart seats.

Not only is it relatively easy to dock it at a crowded public dock, it gives the boaters the good health benefits or ROWING ....... something you do not get with a 27' motor boat. ......

[tis]

Well they did vote to spend $300,000 + to repair them and that is being done now.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Descant

Much much much more annoying.

GOOD, then I hope it is effective.

Its really hard to find a way to one up someone intent on being really annoying, but when you do its very satisfying.

I only hope it has some limited effect. I dont expect much, but anything will satisfy me.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

You know that a 14' v-hull open boat will have three thwarts or bench seats, so is very doable to install six oar locks with six wood oars for a total of three rowers to row the boat ...... all together now ...... gently across Lake Winipesaukee ..... row, row, row.

The real problem with this shortage of public dock space is NOT that the docks are too small. The real problem here is that the boats are too BIG.

A 14' v-hull open boat is perfectly capable to go anywhere on the lake, and can be either rowed by two or three, or motored by one. Is a little large for one person to row except for a short distance but it is good to row for two or three.

A 14' v-hull aluminum boat with nothing in it including no motor attached and no gasoline tank weighs about 225-lbs for just the boat. It measures 14'2' x 5'2"-transom with a mid-section beam of 5'6" and has three thwart seats.

Not only is it relatively easy to dock it at a crowded public dock, it gives the boaters the good health benefits or ROWING ....... something you do not get with a 27' motor boat. ......

I suppose I could liken it to typing nonsensical posts, maybe we should limit all posts to 256 characters and one post per day.

But then I think all that typing some people do might be good exercise and it helps boost their total number of posts while burning more calories to help control "fat-headedness" so maybe we should just allow them to keep posting as someone must be the biggest blowhard and in order to maintain that status they need to maintain their health so typing may be part of their workout.

In the end, only those stupid enough to read such peoples posts AND respond to them are are suffering and its truly a self-imposed injury, as said by the idiot responding ;-)

Now I must move on to try to save the world from some other social injustices.

For Duty and Humanity!

[WinnisquamZ]

This past Saturday walked past the dock work being done. Cleaning up and replacing many of the older and damaged boards.


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