Pier 19 Country store closed easy access to public boat ramp

[BroadHopper]

There are three sides to this story, the store owner(s), the slip association, and the legal document providing easements. Almost always the legal document prevails. Why I say almost, it is subject to interpretation as any unscrupulous lawyer will tell you.

[knowit]

One thing I would like to know is there anything in the Condo Assoc. Docs that say the Marina will offer docking space for temp tie ups for islanders and such so that they may access the store.

The other clause about dock owners having access to the parking area is very clear. The store is in violation of that right.

On another note, the "prison gates" that the marina installed are the ugliest thing I have ever seen. They do nothing to keep folks off the docks. They are very easily bypassed. Remove them. Offer space for temp tie ups and I bet the barricades will disappear. A little cooperation can go a long way.

Just my two cents.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by knowit

One thing I would like to know is there anything in the Condo Assoc. Docs that say the Marina will offer docking space for temp tie ups for islanders and such so that they may access the store.

The other clause about dock owners having access to the parking area is very clear. The store is in violation of that right.

On another note, the "prison gates" that the marina installed are the ugliest thing I have ever seen. They do nothing to keep folks off the docks. They are very easily bypassed. Remove them. Offer space for temp tie ups and I bet the barricades will disappear. A little cooperation can go a long way.

Just my two cents.

The answer is no. The docks are entirely private, and the gates were installed because there was theft and damage to boats in the marina. There are also liability issues for the private property to be open to the public.

It is also interesting to note that prior store owners, years ago, actually owned that portion of the dock that was used for store customers, but sold it to the boatslip owners. No question the boatslip owners have the right to put gates in.

The prior owners made a deal with the boat slip owners to rent the dock for public use. The new owners bought AFTER the gates were installed, and are obviously trying to leverage what they are wrongfully doing to force the association to open those docks without any arrangement to use that private property or to address the liability and theft issues. There are ways a deal could be done if both sides wanted to, but why would the boatslip owners open those gates and subject themselves to these issues just to help the store out when the store does stuff like this?

It seems fairly obvious the new store owners either didn’t understand their store was just a unit in a condo association, or didn’t care, and have been poking the association constantly for things they are not entitled to under the condo documents.

[knowit]

Good information to know. Thanks Cow Times. It seems the store is being unreasonable. Either their way or the highway. This is not going to end well for the business. I won't patronize them.
And don't even get me started on their proposal for the seaplane base.
That must be stopped. The town of Tuftonboro should have a say in that.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

The answer is no. The docks are entirely private, and the gates were installed because there was theft and damage to boats in the marina. There are also liability issues for the private property to be open to the public.

It is also interesting to note that prior store owners, years ago, actually owned that portion of the dock that was used for store customers, but sold it to the boatslip owners. No question the boatslip owners have the right to put gates in.

The prior owners made a deal with the boat slip owners to rent the dock for public use. The new owners bought AFTER the gates were installed, and are obviously trying to leverage what they are wrongfully doing to force the association to open those docks without any arrangement to use that private property or to address the liability and theft issues. There are ways a deal could be done if both sides wanted to, but why would the boatslip owners open those gates and subject themselves to these issues just to help the store out when the store does stuff like this?

It seems fairly obvious the new store owners either didn’t understand their store was just a unit in a condo association, or didn’t care, and have been poking the association constantly for things they are not entitled to under the condo documents.

Can you, or someone, clarify which docks are included in this? Specifically, is the wharf/leftmost finger included?

Also, and I may have missed this, is the ramp public or part of the association?

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[DEJ]

There are two ramps there, one public owned by the town of tuftonboro which almost everyone uses and one private ramp for the dock owners use. They are both only a few feet apart. There used to be a gate across the private ramp but that went missing over the winter, imagine that!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Can you, or someone, clarify which docks are included in this? Specifically, is the wharf/leftmost finger included?

Also, and I may have missed this, is the ramp public or part of the association?

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As you look from the road, the Right most finger ( Wharf ) belongs to the town, beside it is a boat ramp that also belongs to the town....

Just to the left of the town ramp, is a private paved and locked ramp that belongs to the Dock association. Then of course the docks of the association...

If your on the lake, you are correct it is the leftmost finger........

I have been waiting for issues like this to happen. People got very greedy in the 80s.... Many docks went condo, and to do so their where many questionable, associations formed. Pier 19 being one of them.... What we are seeing is a pure power struggle....

In order for Pier 19 to be a viable business, they need dock space. And more of it then the Town wharf can provide....So it appears that the owners are doing what they can to try and force the dock owners to open back up part of the dock that is not used, and was rented previously by the store.

Someone mentioned that the slip owners have a right of way to get to the docks across the store property, and while that is true, does said right of way, detail that it has to be accessible by automobile?

As for the assertion that the strip of land has been open to the public for use for decades, well yes that is true, but it is private property which the owner, can chose to change his mind and deny access too......

At the end of the day, I see lawyers making money, not really anyone else. Peir19 has been doomed since it let the slips go condo, and then to not pay rent on a section of dock that was really needed for the business to attempt to thrive probably sealed its fate......

Ultimately both the Slip Association, and the Pier 19 Retail Property are both going to loose out I am afraid, if they don't find a way to get to some sort of arrangement.....

As for the gates, While I understand the why..... honestly? if someone is planning to go damage some boats, the gates will not stop them..... I think that association would have been better off working with the Store to install some sort of video surveillance system.....

Anyway I am tired of rambling here, tired of hoping Pier 19 would some how find its way back to the lime light it once had, doesn't look like that will happen.... So the only reason to go over their now, is to see if the rooster makes it back to farm island this summer.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Anyone happen to know the current price of gas at Pier 19....?

[TFP]

This strikes me as one of those disappointing situations where both sides have dug in and refused to try to find a middle ground. Instead of condo owners saying “we’re keeping our shark cage style gates come hell or high water” and the store owner responding by asserting property rights over land previously shared at no cost, they should work together to find a fair solution.

I think the middle ground is that the gates stay but with the gate on the formerly rented dock modified to be unlocked automatically during store hours. Since that may require electricity being brought to the gate, it could be further modified to include a security camera. The store owner pays all costs for modifications but has the amount credited against an agreed rent. Everyone wins, condo association collects rent which should lower dues. Store owner has more space to offer to customers. Slip owners that have to deal with non members on their dock get the added security of knowing who is causing the trouble.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by TFP

This strikes me as one of those disappointing situations where both sides have dug in and refused to try to find a middle ground. Instead of condo owners saying “we’re keeping our shark cage style gates come hell or high water” and the store owner responding by asserting property rights over land previously shared at no cost, they should work together to find a fair solution.

I think the middle ground is that the gates stay but with the gate on the formerly rented dock modified to be unlocked automatically during store hours. Since that may require electricity being brought to the gate, it could be further modified to include a security camera. The store owner pays all costs for modifications but has the amount credited against an agreed rent. Everyone wins, condo association collects rent which should lower dues. Store owner has more space to offer to customers. Slip owners that have to deal with non members on their dock get the added security of knowing who is causing the trouble.

What about this suggestion. Since the store owners are requesting from the town authorities and state officials to have a seaplane base at the Pier 19 gas dock. How about extending the seaplane dock and sharing it with a seaplane and their boat customers. This will add needed boat dockage for boaters going to their store. It would also relieve the pressure for the town to modify the town docks. The town already has stated publicly that it does not support any commercial traffic on the 19 mile bay wharf. This idea to help support the store has been suggested just recently and has gotten traction. But why are they wanting a seaplane base in 19 mile bay? That suggestion has caused more social media negative comments than what they are trying to do with blocking off the ramps

[knowit]

Boycott Pier 19 Store!

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

What about this suggestion. Since the store owners are requesting from the town authorities and state officials to have a seaplane base at the Pier 19 gas dock. How about extending the seaplane dock and sharing it with a seaplane and their boat customers. This will add needed boat dockage for boaters going to their store. It would also relieve the pressure for the town to modify the town docks. The town already has stated publicly that it does not support any commercial traffic on the 19 mile bay wharf. This idea to help support the store has been suggested just recently and has gotten traction. But why are they wanting a seaplane base in 19 mile bay? That suggestion has caused more social media negative comments than what they are trying to do with blocking off the ramps

Would it be accurate to guess that you have never attempted to obtain permits to expand a docking facility on the lake?

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Would it be accurate to guess that you have never attempted to obtain permits to expand a docking facility on the lake?

It will obviously take some time and for that reason the store owners should be looking into this already since even if the town allows them to use the town owned wharf which is a long shot that wharf is scheduled for rebuild in the near future so long story short it most likely would not be readily available anyway. IMO the addition to the current gas dock is the best long term option.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by DEJ

It will obviously take some time and for that reason the store owners should be looking into this already since even if the town allows them to use the town owned wharf which is a long shot that wharf is scheduled for rebuild in the near future so long story short it most likely would not be readily available anyway. IMO the addition to the current gas dock is the best long term option.

Adding to any docks on the lake is almost impossible. You can apply but will most likely be turned down.

If you have 300 to 374 feet of frontage you are allowed 5 boat slips. Although I have driven by, the last time I went by boat to the Pier 19 store was about 1997. My recollection is that there are many more slips than that. I do not know what the frontage is.

My point was, you just can't add docks when you want to. I have no doubt that more docks would be helpful but I think the possibility of getting more docking is slim.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Adding to any docks on the lake is almost impossible. You can apply but will most likely be turned down.

If you have 300 to 374 feet of frontage you are allowed 5 boat slips. Although I have driven by, the last time I went by boat to the Pier 19 store was about 1997. My recollection is that there are many more slips than that. I do not know what the frontage is.

My point was, you just can't add docks when you want to. I have no doubt that more docks would be helpful but I think the possibility of getting more docking is slim.

It is done all the time, just takes a bit of effort and of course time. Dealing with the State on anything can be trying especially adding docks. There is room for expansion of the existing gas dock at pier 19, hope the owners are going through the process to do so as it will benefit them in the long run.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by DEJ

It is done all the time, just takes a bit of effort and of course time. Dealing with the State on anything can be trying especially adding docks. There is room for expansion of the existing gas dock at pier 19, hope the owners are going through the process to do so as it will benefit them in the long run.

I think you’ll find that any expansion of the existing gas dock will result in the expansion running outside the property line extended and in front of state owned or state right-of-way land. My last interaction concerning a revised dock was that it had to be, if I remember correctly, more that 10 ft inside my property line extended.


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[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by DEJ

It is done all the time, just takes a bit of effort and of course time. Dealing with the State on anything can be trying especially adding docks. There is room for expansion of the existing gas dock at pier 19, hope the owners are going through the process to do so as it will benefit them in the long run.

Done all the time. Interesting.

Can you name a few of the places that had additional docks approved above the state approved guidelines?

[DEJ]

I never said approved above state guidelines, perhaps we misunderstood each other.

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Done all the time. Interesting.

Can you name a few of the places that had additional docks approved above the state approved guidelines?

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[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Adding to any docks on the lake is almost impossible. You can apply but will most likely be turned down.

If you have 300 to 374 feet of frontage you are allowed 5 boat slips. Although I have driven by, the last time I went by boat to the Pier 19 store was about 1997. My recollection is that there are many more slips than that. I do not know what the frontage is.

My point was, you just can't add docks when you want to. I have no doubt that more docks would be helpful but I think the possibility of getting more docking is slim.

Originally Posted by DEJ

It is done all the time, just takes a bit of effort and of course time. Dealing with the State on anything can be trying especially adding docks. There is room for expansion of the existing gas dock at pier 19, hope the owners are going through the process to do so as it will benefit them in the long run.

I guess we did misunderstand each other.

Please enlighten me. What is done all the time?

Adding docks? Above the number set forth by the state for the existing frontage?

[Descant]

My understanding is that both Wolfeboro and Laconia (Weirs) are working with DES for dock reconfigurations. The final plan may or may not add linear footage, but should improve efficiency. DES is not generally opposed to this. I think commercial marinas and municipalities are looked at with a different perspective than residential docks, especially when there is an existing facility that needs improvement.

[DEJ]

Adding docks with state permission is possible. I believe west Alton marina is doing this.

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I guess we did misunderstand each other.

Please enlighten me. What is done all the time?

Adding docks? Above the number set forth by the state for the existing frontage?

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[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Would it be accurate to guess that you have never attempted to obtain permits to expand a docking facility on the lake?

No.... not accurate

[marinewife]

Just as an aside, we have no skin in the game for the dock or boats, but my husband went to the store this week to pick up 2 items.

There are 2 registers there, 1 was in use. The woman in front of him had a massive order of items, hundreds of dollars, and he waited patiently as this customer kept apologizing while he reassured her he was in no rush. Meanwhile, the owner was present, straightening T-shirts, walking around, etc-

It was a 15-20 minute order, and he was wondering why the owner didn't offer to open up the other register for his 2 items. I am wondering the same thing- we're residents and I feel like I'd rather drive the other 4 miles to Pine Cone from now on. Am I wrong to think this way~

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by marinewife

Just as an aside, we have no skin in the game for the dock or boats, but my husband went to the store this week to pick up 2 items.

There are 2 registers there, 1 was in use. The woman in front of him had a massive order of items, hundreds of dollars, and he waited patiently as this customer kept apologizing while he reassured her he was in no rush. Meanwhile, the owner was present, straightening T-shirts, walking around, etc-

It was a 15-20 minute order, and he was wondering why the owner didn't offer to open up the other register for his 2 items. I am wondering the same thing- we're residents and I feel like I'd rather drive the other 4 miles to Pine Cone from now on. Am I wrong to think this way~

I'm also close to both stores, and I think you're reasonable. The Pine Cone may be small, but it's a great store and restaurant, and the people are always nice. I've only been to the new Pier 19 a handful of times, but most times there's some sort of quirky irritating thing--similar to your experience--that makes me wish I was someplace else.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

What about this suggestion. Since the store owners are requesting from the town authorities and state officials to have a seaplane base at the Pier 19 gas dock. How about extending the seaplane dock and sharing it with a seaplane and their boat customers. This will add needed boat dockage for boaters going to their store. It would also relieve the pressure for the town to modify the town docks. The town already has stated publicly that it does not support any commercial traffic on the 19 mile bay wharf. This idea to help support the store has been suggested just recently and has gotten traction. But why are they wanting a seaplane base in 19 mile bay? That suggestion has caused more social media negative comments than what they are trying to do with blocking off the ramps

I got one better than that... as part of the agreement the town ramp should be improved to include the necessary area to launch, prepare for launch , and maintain permanent public access for launching and retrieving of boats or items to be brought or retrieved from the lake. Feel free to add to this...

[Mr. V]

It would be helpful if someone could attach a photo of the ramp / barrels for the benefit of out of area viewers, thanks.

[KPW]

Originally Posted by swnoel

I got one better than that... as part of the agreement the town ramp should be improved to include the necessary area to launch, prepare for launch , and maintain permanent public access for launching and retrieving of boats or items to be brought or retrieved from the lake. Feel free to add to this...

How do you propose this? Where is the “area” going to come from?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

But why are they wanting a seaplane base in 19 mile bay? That suggestion has caused more social media negative comments than what they are trying to do with blocking off the ramps

The reason why is because they want to run scenic tours via sea plane of the surrounding area and operate out of 19 mile bay.

So while on paper and in principal it sounds like not much activity will go on in there suggesting landing will be with permission only and the number of planes will be limited, one plane doing say hour long tours will be a fair amount of traffic in and out.

[marinewife]

The only reason I can think of on why the store owner wants to start up seaplane tours is money. And, one plane may turn into more.


There's an old Arab proverb, that if a camel is allowed to get it's nose inside of a tent, it will be impossible to prevent the rest of it from entering.

Interesting times for 19 Mile Bay.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

The reason why is because they want to run scenic tours via sea plane of the surrounding area and operate out of 19 mile bay.

So while on paper and in principal it sounds like not much activity will go on in there suggesting landing will be with permission only and the number of planes will be limited, one plane doing say hour long tours will be a fair amount of traffic in and out.

But did you know who is giving permission for a seaplane to land. The owner of the store. Really?! She is in the store all day. She has very little view of the lakefront especially how many boats are in the whole approved seaplane landing strip in 19 mile bay. Will she be trained? Will they hire a waterfront director to direct Seaplane traffic. The reason she wants this seaplane base is to attract more people to the store. Why would she want to tell a incoming pilot not to land? She wants them to land. More she lets in the more will be going to her store to buy ice cream. Choke!!

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

But did you know who is giving permission for a seaplane to land. The owner of the store. Really?! She is in the store all day. She has very little view of the lakefront especially how many boats are in the whole approved seaplane landing strip in 19 mile bay. Will she be trained? Will they hire a waterfront director to direct Seaplane traffic. The reason she wants this seaplane base is to attract more people to the store. Why would she want to tell a incoming pilot not to land? She wants them to land. More she lets in the more will be going to her store to buy ice cream. Choke!!

The ice cream rationale is also kind of funny--so four or five people an hour buy a total of $20 worth of ice cream? This is an awful lot of trouble for an awfully small reward--Bailey's Bubble does that every few minutes

[Descant]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

But did you know who is giving permission for a seaplane to land. The owner of the store. Really?! She is in the store all day. She has very little view of the lakefront especially how many boats are in the whole approved seaplane landing strip in 19 mile bay. Will she be trained? Will they hire a waterfront director to direct Seaplane traffic. The reason she wants this seaplane base is to attract more people to the store. Why would she want to tell a incoming pilot not to land? She wants them to land. More she lets in the more will be going to her store to buy ice cream. Choke!!

Your opposition seems to be overpowering your sense of perspective. Nobody in the store will be acting as an air traffic controller. Safe landing and take-off is up to the pilot, as well described in earlier posts. "Permission" usually would involve prior arrangement.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Descant

Your opposition seems to be overpowering your sense of perspective. Nobody in the store will be acting as an air traffic controller. Safe landing and take-off is up to the pilot, as well described in earlier posts. "Permission" usually would involve prior arrangement.

Actually, if you read the state permit and the letter the store owner does have to give her permission for individual pilots to use the permitted lake & ice runway. Seems crazy but, if FAA agrees, it will be a private seaplane base & ice runway.

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[knowit]

But they need a place to dock their planes. We can and should do everything possible to stop them from using the town owned Union Wharf.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Descant

Your opposition seems to be overpowering your sense of perspective. Nobody in the store will be acting as an air traffic controller. Safe landing and take-off is up to the pilot, as well described in earlier posts. "Permission" usually would involve prior arrangement.

Sorry but you are wrong. I heard the presentation by the pilot and presenter Tom Wood who is pleading his case. He said "the pilots will call the store owner to get clearance". It is on video! That alone.. he lost me and I was dumfounded. Won't you be?

[Descant]

We're in the wrong thread, but that's basically what I expected-you c all ahead.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Descant

We're in the wrong thread, but that's basically what I expected-you c all ahead.

I'm sorry... Are you saying call ahead... that the air traffic controller is going to be the store owner who spends most of her time back in the kitchen. From the store view you only can see the gas docks and out to maybe Farm Island. She would not have an perspective what boat traffic is occurring in the state approved landing strip. This is a mess... who in the State and FAA approved of this nonsense?

[knowit]

Just found out that the Pier 19 Country Store is for sale. Thank goodness. Please please please Skelly's buy this! Skelly's can make this place great.

[tis]

Originally Posted by knowit

Just found out that the Pier 19 Country Store is for sale. Thank goodness. Please please please Skelly's buy this!

Oh no. She has tried so hard. Are the Skelley's even doing stores any more?

[FlyingScot]

She has worked hard, and the whole crew is great. I hope the increase in real estate prices gets her a good return

[Soal2soal]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

Anyone happen to know the current price of gas at Pier 19....?

$3.89


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[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by knowit

One thing I would like to know is there anything in the Condo Assoc. Docs that say the Marina will offer docking space for temp tie ups for islanders and such so that they may access the store.

The other clause about dock owners having access to the parking area is very clear. The store is in violation of that right.

On another note, the "prison gates" that the marina installed are the ugliest thing I have ever seen. They do nothing to keep folks off the docks. They are very easily bypassed. Remove them. Offer space for temp tie ups and I bet the barricades will disappear. A little cooperation can go a long way.

Just my two cents.

This following post was taken from I boat Winnipesaukee forum. It tells the real story.
"I would like to jump in and clarify a few things. I HAVE skin in this game, as one of the original owners of a Pier 19 dock. We once had an agreement with the previous store owners to allow use of our North pier in payment of rent. They stopped paying. In the meantime we have had multiple issues with non-owners on the docks with belligerent, rude behavior and causing damage and theft to the slip owners boats. I for one received a tankful of water in my gas tank in return. Caused serious damage to my engine and the boat never ran very well after. I had to buy a new engine.

Because previous store owner stopped paying rent for our dock space, and to assure peace of mind for dock owners we had to make a very difficult decision to gate our docks. It was a difficult decision and some members didn't want to. But the liability was to great. At our last annual meeting and the new store owner attended the meeting because they are part of the association In fact they are a member of the board of Directors. But refuse to admit that they are. But at our meeting we ALL voted to keep the docks gated.

I want all of you FOLKS with your false opinions about this to just think...
These docks were and are a huge investment to allow us to get to our homes, Yes, OUR Homes. We have a right to protect our investment and to feel safe in doing so.
I also have a right to not be confronted by threatening, entitled, non-members while trying to get to my home.
We are not the only condo that limits public access to our docks for very much the same reasoning. It is unfortunate that we have to deal with this.
PLEASE stop with baseless lies about us. Unless you are an owner, or a member you don't know the real story and the TRUTH!