Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

The differences are:
1. I'm not making money off of using the public space.
2. It's once every-so-often, not every day or multiple days.
3. It's for one period of time, not a whole portion of day.

Also, what do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land?

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your message is loud and clear and it appears the good folks in Tuftonboro see right through your attempt to use town property for your private business. You are not helping yourself with these comments. Perhaps we should thank you for them. When is the public hearing or whatever you want to call it going to be Epic?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[The Real BigGuy]

The town pier has a 3 hour limit.

It is interesting to me that you are having trouble answering questions that would appear to me to be central to your business plan. You know your fixed costs, and you can estimate your variable costs. I assume you also know what your revenue/flight is. Based on that you should be able to estimate your flights per day and the amount of time you will use the dock. Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You still haven’t answered my and thinkxingu‘s direct question...

[thinkxingu]

Epic, I realize that it might appear as if we're ganging up on you, but that's not my intention. Thank you kindly for answering my questions, and good luck!

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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[lakewinnie]

Epic Seaplane Adventure:

I have been following this thread as best as I can. Can you please clarify:

1) Is it accurate to say that the maximum time that your seaplane would be at the dock is 4-5 hours on any one day? I believe that the maximum time I am allowed to dock my boat at some of the town docks is 3-4 hours.

2) If I understand it correctly, the plane would need to be docked for approx. 30 minutes before it takes off. How long would it be at the dock to unload the passengers after it returns?

3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

4) Where would your passenger customers park there vehicles while they are on your plane?

Thank you.

[DEJ]

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

[The Real BigGuy]

That is BS. Cow Times is right. As a tax paying town resident I need access to the pier for my contractors. They are not asking the town to make any accommodation for them to use the pier. I believe that your last response is one that someone backed into a corner would make. I’m still trying to understand how running your business out of the town pier is different then parking a food truck on the dock.


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[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

By definition it is discrimination...

noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

[Sundancer320]

So, you came on here looking for an open discussion and when you’re pressed you get obstinate and a bit unhinged. It does not help your case by accusing people who will be affected by this operation of discrimination and insulting them. You’re argument of the barge use at the town dock is laughable. No matter how you slice it you are going to “base” your enterprise on the town dock and make money from its use. Residents who use the barges for delivery of supplies do so only sparingly, maybe once a season. You’re talking about several days a week, several times a day. If a barge operator were to sit at the town dock and hit up people for work or services, you might have a point. Even if you want to play semantics and say it’s not based there because you’re office is really in the garage at home, you’re still operating the business from a common place. The town dock.

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I like planes. And I probably would’ve been a customer if you had a private base or were located at an airport. Not a town owned wharf. And my verdict is still open if you were based at a private dock in the bay (I would want to better understand the safety issues there).

Tell me, please. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to park my food truck on the wharf for half the day? Or tie up my pontoon with an ice cream stand?

By feigning discrimination, you are ignoring the fundamental differences between basing a commercial operation on the wharf and incidental use. You say the operation would not be based there—but if tours take off there, land there, have safety briefings there, and park there, and have the plane there for half the day, it’s based there.

[DEJ]

CowTimes, he has the ability to operate his business from his private dock on mirror lake where he keeps his plane in the water much of the summer. He could advertise these scenic flights right from there and avoid the congestion and fireboat and emergency vehicle issues and wharf issues etc... by conducting his business there. Problem solved.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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He’s not at the dock when he’s taxiing. And safety briefings can occur when he’s taxiing. When do commercial airlines do their safety briefings? ��


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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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[TiltonBB]

Interesting thread. And, I will give Mr. Epic credit for at least standing up and answering the questions, even if some of the answers seem a little skewed in his favor. It is also a credit that he is a long time town resident not an outsider trying to drop in, open a business, and change the rules.

A couple of questions:

1. What happens if you come back from a flight and there are no open docks for an hour?

2. Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Taxiing and safety briefings don’t occur at the dock. They probably occur simultaneously, like on a commercial airplane. Why would you think half an hour of air time translates to half an hour on the dock?


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That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

[Sundancer320]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

That’s a good question, which I have been asking all afternoon. My guess is that there are safety and liability issues that require the safety briefing before getting on the plane, given the noise in one of these vs a commercial plane. But I haven’t got a straight answer after asking the question several times as to how long the plane would be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations (and as others pointed out, that may not be the case)

This is a single pilot operation. The pilot will conduct the briefings before they leave the dock and will not be able to safely maneuver the plane while also trying to give a safety brief. My guess is once all passengers are at the plane, they will receive a 10 minute or so safety brief then load and go.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

This is a good point. I will add that in all my years in Tuftonboro and regular use of the town wharf, I have seen a barge there less than a half dozen times. And never on the weekend, which is the busiest time for use of the wharf, and which would presumably be the same for prime operation of a charter/tour business.

[knowit]

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

[knowit]

And here’s another option for you, I know the Pier 19 Marina has an entire side of a dock finger they aren’t using. Why don’t you ask them for permission to use it?
Oh, that’s right, the Pier 19 Store is at war with their own association. She’s such a great business owner that she tried to block their access to their own docks! No thanks, we don’t need her entitled crap.

[Sundancer320]

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sorry your message is loud.... but not clear. Let's get the true facts. You came to the Tuftonboro Selectman with the Pier 19 store owner to basically asking help to start a business. I saw your live youtube presentation to the Selectmen. I heard your case. I heard the store owner pleading that this has to be done now. Like it was an entitlement to her. It appeared you are basically in a partnership with the store owner. Your timing couldn't have been worst. The store has unfortunately caused other recent controversy.

It you are so determined to start your business up with the store you should help the store get permits to build multiple docks along with her gas dock. Would you not need Aviation fuel? So have the Pier 19 store ask for permits to include fuel for seaplanes plus docks for her customers and yours. I then would consider your support for helping the store succeed.

[Descant]

I'm embarrassed to think that a small NH town where a local guy grew up and went to HS, followed by extensive professional training, doesn't get local support. All he wants is to use one side of a dock that is little used because it's too shallow for many boats. If he were a dentist (nobody likes dentists) wouldn't you all support a local kid so you don't have to drive to Wolfeboro? Maybe all the whiners really aren't locals after all?
This really has nothing to do with where he will get his gas or how long he will be at the dock. That was all resolved at Mirror lake a long time ago. This is a local guy who wants to do business in a town where he grew up and all you locals should be helping him just the way you did when you paid for his public education. This is Tuftonborough. If your local kid wanted to start a local business, wouldn't you all want to hep the kid who played with your kids? In today's colloquialism "C'mon, man."

[DEJ]

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

I am in the process of having “No seaplanes at Union Wharf!” bumper stickers printed up. I will advise when they are available. We need to stop the for profit use of a town owned asset right now! Build your own damn dock!

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Descant, no one is preventing him from running his business, he can run it from his dock on mirror lake on his state approved water runway on mirror lake. We object to him using a town of tuftonboro property to base the business from. The wharf is town property and belongs to all residents, not just him.

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

We will just have to agree to disagree. Use of the wharf would require modification of a town property for the reason of conducting a private business from it. Run your business from your private dock on mirror lake.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

I think this venture has too much liability exposure to the town. All it takes is one clumsy, overweight, near sighted, inebriated etc... passenger to take a tumble off the plane/dock/float and get seriously injured for the town to be pulled into a lawsuit. I spent my life in aviation and a lot of time working around floatplanes. It can be hazardous..I don’t care how much training or experience an operator has. Sometimes they can’t control the unknown factor called “passenger”

Sorry please tell me how this is any different than people coming up to the dock with a boat?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMB...%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMB...%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. You came here for open discussion and now you are insulting us. I have no problem with your business just oppose you running it from a town owned resource. Run it from your own dock. When is the public hearing on this? I have asked you several times, do you know?

[TheTimeTraveler]

Does anyone here remember the Sea Plane that operated out of Paugus Bay back in the 1990's...?

I don't think they could make it work financially because the cost of the rides were such, and the business just ceased.

I am not sure what a half hour ride would cost today. Would Epic Seaplane like to comment on what he plans on charging each passenger for the scenic lake tour?


.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole. You came here for open discussion and now you are insulting us. I have no problem with your business just oppose you running it from a town owned resource. Run it from your own dock. When is the public hearing on this? I have asked you several times, do you know?

Fair enough. Do you oppose commercial barges being able to access the pier?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Fair enough. Do you oppose commercial barges being able to access the pier?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I have stated my opinion on that question several times. When is the public hearing on your proposed modification of town property so your private business can use town property to operate from?

[knowit]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you can put it next to your " coexist" sticker.

I get it, you don't want Seaplanes there, but other commercial operations are completely fine.

Logical.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMB...%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

That pretty much sums it up. The problem is that the social media factor can overpower reality and facts. If I had a dock in 19 Mile Bay, I’d offer it to you for a base. God help anyone that has the motivation, spirit and energy to start a new business around here that the Nimby’s don’t like (just ask the owners of the Dive). Give it hell, best of luck, and most of all: https://johncousins-68418.medium.com...m-7215236ad589

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by knowit

Your condescending attitude is not helping your cause very much.

We just want to be all inclusive, not single out anyone, or any business, and promote the town.

We live this town, we love this lake, and we love you too. I would never try to block access to a public pier. Not for a barge, a boat, an airboat (with a big scary propeller), not anyone...

I'm working with the town to have the dock posts lowered to allow for safer access to the dock for everyone. I'm sure the barge owners would love the posts lowered too. Loading and unloading equipment is very difficult with the dock posts so high.

This is a win for everyone and the town.

Even if the town decided that a commercial operator cannot access the pier we then shift directly to the access for a private owner so the issue doesn't go away at all.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, for the sake of conversation what if the town says no to your proposed modification of the wharf posts so you can operate your scenic flights from town property?

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Epic, if I were a cop, here’s the advice I’d give you: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion, and at the Town’s hearings.” Apparently some of these people have way too much time on their hands, and seem to be playing “Town Official”. If it were me, I’d play submarine captain, call the diving officer and go silent and deep. Again, good luck.

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

[Sundancer320]

All good questions from CowTimes. I hope he answers these without throwing insults at us “rubes” who are just too emotional to see the brilliance of their plan.

The most important question is why not use Mirror Lake as the base? It’s a 30 second plane flight over Winnipesaukee and has considerable less boat traffic.

I think we all know the answer to that: the store owner wants traffic in her store and knows she won’t be able to use her own dock for it.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

That is good advice if one does not want to engage with the public and be transparent.

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Engaging with the public is fine with the appropriate, moderated Town hearings, not on these social media forums.

Respectfully, Seaplane, if you watch the video of the last Selectmen’s meeting, you will see that the proponents are trying to push this through without a public town hearing. And the proponents affirmatively came on this forum to plead their case and are appropriately being pressed for answers to some very logical and basic questions.

[rander7823]

Skydive Laconia to some extent

[knowit]

Available soon

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks

Epic Seaplane Adventures

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

“You don’t like airplanes we get it.”

I think you should spend a little time retreading and editing before you post. My Dad had a 172 and some of the best times with him I remember were flights to remote airports for lunch, scenic flights in the fall to NH, ME, VT airports, flying to visit relatives in the Midwest, etc. I love airplanes.

The issue here has nothing to do with airplanes. It is your request to the town to make an accommodation for you so you can run your business from town property. I have yet to hear of any barge owner asking the town to cut down the tie posts so they could run their business from the dock.

I watched the selectmen’s meeting and was appalled when the store owner commented that someone could cut the tie posts in the middle of the night. Wow, that tells me all I need to know about your partner.

I wish you luck but, your prospects appear slimmer than Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

Facts, please. How high off the wharf do the posts currently extend? How high off the wharf do you want/need the posts to be? Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts? Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

P.S. I like airplanes. See my avatar.

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

Specifically, what is the reason that you want/need to shorten posts?

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barges pretty much use the shallow side of the wharf as the fireboat and fish and game boat block barges from using the deeper side that most boaters use. This time of year the shallower side is fine for most all boats as water level is at full pool right now. Different story later into the summer/fall. The barges do require that the posts be higher, surely if they were cut down to deck height they could not tie up.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened? How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside? When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be? It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[knowit]

If you want shorter posts, maybe you should try not quoting people and then adding your snobby, entitled, and condescending comments. Man your posts are hard to follow Epic.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Please stop with the platitudes about potential private use for pilots coming in to get an ice cream at the store. If you weren’t trying to run a tour/charter business from this town dock, you wouldn’t have formed an LLC and gone through all the time and hassle to get an approved runway. The private use is just a fig leaf to waive around to suggest there are non-commercial use that would benefit. I just don’t buy it, and I still doubt that many private planes are going to fly in just to grab an ice cream when they can’t get aviation fuel.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I have gone back through this thread, and gathered what appear to be all of the legitimate questions that have been unanswered (I omitted what appeared to be rhetorical questions). Apologies to any forum members that posed questions I may have missed. It would be helpful to have direct, responsive answers to each of these questions:

(1) How long would your tour plane be at the dock, assuming back-to-back reservations? You have said the potential plan is to operate from 10am-7pm, with one flight per hour, and a half hour air time per flight. If that’s the case, are you not planning to be at the dock for approximately a half hour per flight (or close to a half hour) for safety briefings, loading, unloading, etc.? Please tell us how we got the math wrong here, and how much time you would be at the dock (assuming back-to-back reservations), and how you calculate to get to that amount of time.

(2) What do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land and there are no open docks for an hour? What happens to your next reservations?

(3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

(4) Where is the aircraft going to be kept when not being used in 19 mile bay?

(5) Where would your passenger customers park their vehicles while they are on your plane?

(6) Under your view of appropriate use of a town-owned wharf for commercial business, why shouldn’t a food truck be allowed to park on the wharf for half the day to sell to the public? Or permit a pontoon boat with an ice cream stand to tie up to the wharf? Is your position that commercial use of the dock is permissible by all and is on a daily first-come basis? (Your comparison to intermittent barge use has been extensively addressed above; a rehash of that isn’t helpful; it would be helpful to see where you draw the line on commercial use of town property)

(7) Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?

(8) Why don’t you run the sightseeing flights out of your base on Mirror Lake? You disparage town residents as having a “NIMBY” mindset. Are you not running this out of your base on Mirror Lake because you don’t want to upset your own neighbors running 8 flights out and 8 flights in per day? Or are you not permitted to use your residence for commercial operations?

(9) When is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Do you need a job? I'll hire you for my logistics manager. I know you are curious about how people run their companies, but do you wonder what other commercial operators do when they aren't picking up and dropping off at the pier? That's not a sarcastic question. Do you treat them with the same respect?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

These are entirely fair questions for a business that is seeking to use public property as its base of operations. Not a single business in this town or any other in the state is permitted to use public property in the manner you seek without a license, paying for it, having a contract with indemnification obligations to the municipality, and often providing a bond for the obligations since these types of operations are often undercapitalized (I’m not suggesting you are, but these are the issues diligence in public contracting involve).

And please, stop with the barge comparison. The barges use the wharf intermittently what, maybe an hour or two a week, as the public access for island residents, and have never to my knowledge displaced any other use of the dock. Nor are they based on the town dock. Your sole in-person interaction on land with your customers will be on the town dock. You are proposing to use the dock as a base for your business, as demonstrated by the math above that your plane would be there for 4-5 hours a day if fully booked, and even longer if not fully booked. Not all the barge companies combined, nor any member of the public, use the town wharf as extensively as you seek to. So, yes, when you are effectively asking the town to subsidize your business by providing you a business base for free, these are the types of questions you can expect.

And as for my employment status, I do fine for myself without asking the public to subsidize my business. Please stay on topic and be respectful, as I have tried to do here in posing legitimate questions and demonstrating the problems with your public positions and statements.

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed modifications to town property so that you can run your business from town property?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit that there are people who use the dock for commercial purposes.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

So you do finally admit your business will be based on town property?

As noted about five times previously, yes, there are INCIDENTAL commercial uses (Ctrl-F for incidental) by barges, island realtors, and probably many others no one sees and that do not interfere. You ignore the fundamental difference between incidental commercial use of public property and basing ones entire business off public property.

Another example. Photographers often take clients to public parks (eg Wolfeboro by the docks) to take pictures. That doesn’t mean a photographer can set up his or her office, studio, framing and printing facility in the gazebo there. That’s the difference between incidental commercial use, and basing a business on public property. I don’t think you’re confused about the difference, you just want the town and its residents to ignore it.

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Epic, when is the public hearing for your proposed business that you want to run from town property?

Hello, it's not set yet. The selectman have requested a step prior to this, in the process. Insert sarcasm, yes a process! One that is being followed!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Mr. Wood:
When you joined this discussion yesterday, you said that you “would like to address everyone’s concerns… feel free to ask… we are open, honest and not afraid of any questions.” I applaud this attitude, and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but… you have not answered questions that I have directly and clearly asked, sometimes multiple times. The result is that I am beginning to wonder if you are being purposely evasive, perhaps because you are afraid that disclosing the true nature of your proposed business operations would paint a negative picture of commercial seaplane activity that relies on the publicly owned Union Wharf in Tuftonboro.
Please live up to the words in your first post and answer these questions:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, Please site the law, regulation, or town ordinance that you are referring to please. I have done this...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Respectfully, this is a pretty basic legal concept that you should have raised with a lawyer before you started all this. But since you asked, this is adopted in one form or another in virtually all states and municipalities. One example from the town of Tuftonboro that you really should have read before you started this “process”:

Tuftonboro Docking and Parking Ordinance (relevant excerpts):

C. UNION WHARF

THIS TOWN-OWNED WHARF AND BOAT LAUNCH FACILITY IS AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE PUBLIC AS A TEMPORARY DOCKING AND BOAT LAUNCHING FACILITY. NO OVERNIGHT DOCKING IS ALLOWED...

CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES MAY USE UNION WHARF TO LOAD AND UNLOAD SUPPLIES AND MATERIAL FOR LAKESIDE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RESTRICTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN.

. . .

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

Sounds good. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

NO COMMERCIAL WATERCRAFT MAY USE OR DOCK AT A TOWN DOCK OR WHARF FOR MORE THAN ONE (1) HOUR . . . .


As you can see, the barges’ and other business incidental use of the wharf is expressly permitted by ordinance. As I noted previously, this should not be a surprise since barge use is necessary for town residents to inhabit the islands.

As you can also see, trying to use the dock as a base for your business for 4-5 hours per day is not permitted, and would require a change to the ordinance. So, this is not just an issue for a public hearing, this is a town meeting issue.

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

In fairness to everyone, the rest of the sentence you quote form the Docking and Parking Ordinance says "...without written permission of the Town board of selectmen or its designee." So I don't think an ordinance change (or town meeting) would be required to allow a commercial watercraft to use the Union Wharf for more than one hour; written permission from the Board of Selectmen appears to be all that is needed.

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Yes, and that is clearly an exception for intermittent use, such as a barge needing an extra half hour on a random day. The general prohibition is against commercial use except for an hour. I’m fairly certain the selectmen would not view their authority to extend to permit a commercial enterprise to be based on the town dock by virtue of their ability to let a commercial vessel dock intermittently beyond one hour. What is being proposed is far beyond the limited exception the ordinance provides.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see nothing in the ordinance language to indicate that written permission from the select board for commercial docking beyond one hour can only be a limited exception. Now, individual select persons may be reluctant to provide written permission that's as sweeping as Mr. Wood desires, but I don't think that the ordinance as written restricts the board from doing so.

We can agree to disagree on this one. Even under your interpretation, and based on their statements at prior meetings, I don’t see the board of selectmen permitting a commercial operation being based on the wharf without at least a public hearing.

The real point of raising the ordinance (the proponent asked for legal authority on intermittent use), though, is it prohibits commercial use like the one being proposed and expressly permits barges to use it for an hour.

So hopefully we can stop with the nonsense about comparisons to barges and “discrimination” against full-on commercial operations based on the wharf for 4-5 hours per day.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Sums it up perfectly...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMB...%20regulations.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

There's no reason you couldn't use that dock like everyone else does. Unfortunately ,there's not much civility left in this society... the bullies have decided they'll decide what's best for everyone whether you like it or not! I'm surprised you haven't been called a racists yet... course they've already told you you're not being discriminated against.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by swnoel

There's no reason you couldn't use that dock like everyone else does. Unfortunately ,there's not much civility left in this society... the bullies have decided they'll decide what's best for everyone whether you like it or not! I'm surprised you haven't been called a racists yet... course they've already told you you're not being discriminated against.

He cannot use the wharf like everyone else simply because the posts are to high for him to park his plane there. If the posts were modified to accommodate his business it could have a negative affect on someone else who choses to use the wharf.

[chasedawg]

Someone landed a seaplane in the new and approved Pier 19 runway. Then I saw Tom Wood having a discussion on the town wharf. Pictures were being taken where acting as a boat will probably tie up. Wow did that plane make noise far worst than any motor cycle or off shore 1000 HP race boat. Many neighbors were complaining after. The sound echoes in that tight enclosed area.

I would not be surprised to see him tie up at the wharf after all just to check it out. That's fine he is a boat. But there is no way he can reduce prop wash or sound. It will be an interesting summer.

[knowit]

Loud as hell and I live a mile away from there!

[knowit]

Looks like we will need to organize our flotilla of boats to anchor in the runway on the weekends. As boats, we have the right of way.

[knowit]

Here is the email of the Tuftonboro town selectmen. Please take a moment to send them a message on this subject. This needs to be stopped now!


selectmen@tuftonboro.org

[Sundancer320]

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat. On its takeoff to the north he gets airborne directly across from the camps on Chase island just past the yellow boat house and then stays in ground effect (water effect to be precise) for about 200-300’ until it begins its climb reaching 300-500’ altitude past Chase. I see potential conflicts arising from this choke point as it is common for boats to speed around Chase heading for Pier 19 and it will be interesting to see how a floatplane in a critical phase of flight maneuvers away at low altitude to avoid an oncoming boat at 30 mph plus who won’t see the floatplane until it clears the corner.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat.

How high off the wharf was the wing? This is one of the things I was asking questions about (yet to be answered). Unless the plane is secured to the wharf nose in, either a wing or the empennage will be over the wharf and obstructing traffic the whole time the plane is alongside. No boat or barge is going to present that same problem. As much as Mr. Wood may claim otherwise, the commercial use of the wharf by a seaplane is not "just like" the commercial use of the wharf by a barge. It's completely apples to oranges, and in evaluating the use of the public wharf by a commercial seaplane operation, different considerations are justified.

[Sundancer320]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

How high off the wharf was the wing? This is one of the things I was asking questions about (yet to be answered). Unless the plane is secured to the wharf nose in, either a wing or the empennage will be over the wharf and obstructing traffic the whole time the plane is alongside. No boat or barge is going to present that same problem. As much as Mr. Wood may claim otherwise, the commercial use of the wharf by a seaplane is not "just like" the commercial use of the wharf by a barge. It's completely apples to oranges, and in evaluating the use of the public wharf by a commercial seaplane operation, different considerations are justified.

I took a few pics and will post them... think it’s about 6’ definitely have to duck a bit if you’re average height to taller..

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

I watched the seaplane make it’s run today and went for a closer look. The plane will sit parallel to the dock 3/4 of the way down on the shallow side(right side as you look from shore) the wing crosses just past halfway across the wharf blocking quick access to the fire boat. On its takeoff to the north he gets airborne directly across from the camps on Chase island just past the yellow boat house and then stays in ground effect (water effect to be precise) for about 200-300’ until it begins its climb reaching 300-500’ altitude past Chase. I see potential conflicts arising from this choke point as it is common for boats to speed around Chase heading for Pier 19 and it will be interesting to see how a floatplane in a critical phase of flight maneuvers away at low altitude to avoid an oncoming boat at 30 mph plus who won’t see the floatplane until it clears the corner.

Not only that... there are many sunfish, Kayaks, paddle boards in that whole area. They could be not seen until it is too late. Camp Belknap takes many campers in about a dozen canoes around Farm Island and across 19 Mile Bay to the town beach and under the bridge. Plus the NHBM has asked the town to put a moorings in 19 mile Bay for the sailshare program. They will be mooring their sailboat there as well. It is going to be mighty crowded. I would bet that the FAA and The State approving this site for seaplanes have no clue what it's like and what it is going to be. This is a disaster waiting to happen. This site should have never been approved. And guess who the pilots call to get landing clearance.... the store owner. She can not see from the store what condition the bay is in to land a plane. Who thought up this crazy and dangerous plan?

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Hey guys! What a great safe day. 75 decibels were recorded from the 230 hp engine from the dock. Very wide and safe. Great proving run.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[Force5]

Today, Pier 19 Country Store posted on Facebook a photo of the seaplane with a caption under it saying: There’s been a rumor going around that our store is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true! Then within 30 mins later she takes down the post and now says: How exciting it is to be able to have a seaplane drop in for a day. We welcome seaplanes here! I took a screen shot of the original posting.
All you naysayers please watch the video of the meeting with the town selectmen. As a previous abutter I can tell you she has no respect for her neighbors and has had issues with the DES for doing things she was not supposed to. Clearing natural vegetation in the wetland, increasing the size of the platform hanging over the lake and adding a too large propane tank in the wetlands. She was not supposed to increase the footage of her house and now has a permit to build a garage! There was discrepancy of two wetland delineations. Funny how the first delineation didn’t get her what she wanted and then had another one done. I don’t know how the state approved her garage. You can go to the DES query and see for yourself. Just put in her name and read the permits. If the condo association is having a war with her, I feel their pain. Can you trust her? NO!

[DEJ]

Good to see the wharf being used as it intended, island resident getting deliveries of stuff.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Good to see the wharf being used as it intended, island resident getting deliveries of stuff.

The pictures of the barges aren’t even from today. Notice the different skies.

Also, this was at 9am or so on a Saturday before Memorial Day. Imagine the difference between today and the Saturday of July 4th weekend, or virtually any other weekend in peak season.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

The pictures of the barges aren’t even from today. Notice the different skies. More deception.

Deception? So you are saying that those barges aren't real, and they weren't at the Pier? What does it matter today or this week? They were there these photos are real. Keep the conversation going. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Since it appears you can dock your plane there when will you start advertising your scenic plane rides and what will the cost be?

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Deception? So you are saying that those barges aren't real, and they weren't at the Pier? What does it matter today or this week? They were there these photos are real. Keep the conversation going. Thanks.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Nope, the barges are real and they are a necessary aspect of island living so that hundreds of Tuftonboro island residents can inhabit the islands and, in turn, provide significant tax revenue to the town. But they use the wharf what, an hour or two per week? In any event, their use of the wharf is expressly permitted by town ordinance.

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Nope, the barges are real and they are a necessary aspect of island living so that hundreds of Tuftonboro island residents can inhabit the islands and, in turn, provide significant tax revenue to the town. But they use the wharf what, an hour or two per week? In any event, their use of the wharf is expressly permitted by town ordinance.

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.

You are making my argument for me. I need to hire you. Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Do you know what’s not real? Any right to use town property as a base for your tour/charter business.

Pretty much sums it up.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

Hey guys! What a great safe day. 75 decibels were recorded from the 230 hp engine from the dock. Very wide and safe. Great proving run. Attachment 16997Attachment 16998Attachment 16999Attachment 17000

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Epic....! You should have not post this picture of your plane. Your plane wing goes 2/3 of the way across the wharf. No one who would want to unload or load their boat for island provisions would not be able to so. When the Tuftonboro Fire Chief sees these pictures he will express his concern with the town Selectmen like most town citizens are now doing.

And this is full pool high water level. When the water level drops Summer and into the Fall your plane wing would totally block access to the docks. You need to get smarter on hold you present your case. Go find another place to dock your plane. You are so tight with the store owners you should be putting your plane there or help them get permits to a new dock. But from I read the store owners will do whatever they please and fell entitled by not even obeying DES regulations. I feel concerned for you picking the wrong pony to ride.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Epic....! You should have not post this picture of your plane. Your plane wing goes 2/3 of the way across the wharf. No one who would want to unload or load their boat for island provisions would not be able to so. When the Tuftonboro Fire Chief sees these pictures he will express his concern with the town Selectmen like most town citizens are now doing.

And this is full pool high water level. When the water level drops Summer and into the Fall your plane wing would totally block access to the docks. You need to get smarter on hold you present your case. Go find another place to dock your plane. You are so tight with the store owners you should be putting your plane there or help them get permits to a new dock. But from I read the store owners will do whatever they please and fell entitled by not even obeying DES regulations. I feel concerned for you picking the wrong pony to ride.

Is this the first time you have ever experienced something like this? You're comments seem like we are inventing something new. Anyone with any common sense and reason can see this isn't an issue.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[DEJ]

You just keep digging your hole deeper, thank you.

[Sundancer320]

I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.