open carry - Market Basket, Plymouth NH

[The Real BigGuy]

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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Heres my problem with most of the posts on this thread, that are backed up by ZERO data.

So far all we have learned is that open carry at market basket or anywhere else has resulted in near zero problems.

We have ~350 million people in America, how many have been injured as a direct result of open carry???

I see no answers.

More people are suffering the drama of this thread than have likely ever suffered from open carry.

So we are back to peoples preferences. Some people dont like eating in restaurants where families eat and have crying babies. Should we ban then because, infants have week immune systems and their crying is likely spreading germs into the air as their body has little ability to kill the germs off,,,

Everyone has something they dont like.

But with regard to implementing bans, hopefully we dot exercise that option too often and mostly where they is an actual problem. And with open carry, clearly we have not been able to identify any problem except a few people feeling uncomfortable. Is that really sufficient reason to demand action. Really,,,

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Heres my problem with most of the posts on this thread, that are backed up by ZERO data.

So far all we have learned is that open carry at market basket or anywhere else has resulted in near zero problems.

We have ~350 million people in America, how many have been injured as a direct result of open carry???

I see no answers.

More people are suffering the drama of this thread than have likely ever suffered from open carry.

So we are back to peoples preferences. Some people dont like eating in restaurants where families eat and have crying babies. Should we ban then because, infants have week immune systems and their crying is likely spreading germs into the air as their body has little ability to kill the germs off,,,

Everyone has something they dont like.

But with regard to implementing bans, hopefully we dot exercise that option too often and mostly where they is an actual problem. And with open carry, clearly we have not been able to identify any problem except a few people feeling uncomfortable. Is that really sufficient reason to demand action. Really,,,

Here’s an article that looks at the issue, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203141/.

Where I live and vacation I see no need to carry a gun. There are many who will never agree with me on the issue and I’m comfortable with that.

[John Mercier]

It really doesn't matter if they agree with you.
Property owners will react based on their own interests.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Here’s an article that looks at the issue, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203141/.

Where I live and vacation I see no need to carry a gun. There are many who will never agree with me on the issue and I’m comfortable with that.

No idea who these people are or what their goal is in creating this report but this is one of the worst reports I have read in a while.

The bouncing between reasonably current (2012) data (1967) and ancient information and firearms related hospitalizations and NF hospitalizations and the then flipping between state and federal data is a disaster.

There are also challenges about IDing LE shootings vs other. And no accounting for legally owned vs illegally owned guns.

In the end a ban that impacts 40 Million people that allegedly saved 337 lives in 2012 seems like a very poor trade off and there may be better ways to reduce any death rate. But then the report did little to convince me that the prohibition actually resulted in reducing any deaths as it failed to ID that the act of carrying actually resulted in the deaths. Likely any reduction was caused by totally removing firearms from these peoples hands, no the open carry itself. It also does little to convince me that many of those were not deaths due to someone committing a crime. I.E. I have little sympathy for criminals killed while committing a crime.

Ultimately any alleged reduction that equals a number of .0000 anything is not of too much interest when it comes at the cost of restricting countless millions of peoples rights.

Of in other words, this was not very helpful,,,

[SAB1]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Here is my problem with “open carry”, “concealed carry”, or any carry at all: Most of the people who carry, not all but a significant portion, have gained their skill on a gun range. (Heck, I was pretty good at the range & at the fair’s air gun booth when I was young). They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely to respond like https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6...b02df1ad873652.

There was a study released a number of years ago (sorry couldn’t find a reference to it now) that said a trained police officer would hit his target less than 20% of the time from 15 ft in a high stress situation. That scares the crap out of me. I don’t want to be one of the innocent bystanders that always seems to get shot.

I’m all for the 2nd Amendment but there needs to be some restraints.


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This is actually true and I agree with you. Most knuckleheads out there really don’t know how to shoot and /or invest in the time to do so. Under pressure lots of different things enter the equation.

I’m sure I’ll take heat for it but anyone carrying should pass a back ground test and everyone should qualify on a range to EDC.

[John Mercier]

Business doesn't really focus on someone being shot.
They focus on the psychological effect that it may have on customers (revenue) of employees (expenses).

Every policy, or lack there of, changes those parameters in some way.

For private landowners, not involved in commerce, the parameters are different.

A landowner down the trail from allows all non-motorized access and snowmobiles, but no hunting or target shooting. Signs are posted to specifically restrict wheeled-OHRV *though by law they are not required* and any unauthorized firearms. Since they will not authorize a firearm for hunting or shooting, only law enforcement... the only other time that may have a firearm interacting with those signs would be a trail user carrying - which might happen should someone on foot or horseback/etc be concerned with being confronted with loose dogs from the neighborhood.

Of course, them discovering that trail users are carrying could lead to them closing the trail and access. No one really knows, since no incident has occurred.

[mhtranger]

One thing people don’t realize is that most of us that carry (open or concealed) are not trying to be hero’s. I carry for my families safety, I’m not going to try and be a hero and save the day but know I will do what it take to protect myself and my family. Most likely will be to get out of harms way or hunker down out of site.

As for stores with signs, that is their right to not allow guns in their stores. If concealed correctly you would never be the wiser that one was there.

Training is a must and like others have said not just at the range where most don’t let you draw from a holster. There are many places that have training and would recommend you take at least one course.

It is my right to carry here in NH and will continue to do so. Call it what you will but if something did go wrong……….🤷🏻*♂️

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

One thing people don’t realize is that most of us that carry (open or concealed) are not trying to be hero’s. I carry for my families safety, I’m not going to try and be a hero and save the day but know I will do what it take to protect myself and my family. Most likely will be to get out of harms way or hunker down out of site.

As for stores with signs, that is their right to not allow guns in their stores. If concealed correctly you would never be the wiser that one was there.

Training is a must and like others have said not just at the range where most don’t let you draw from a holster. There are many places that have training and would recommend you take at least one course.

It is my right to carry here in NH and will continue to do so. Call it what you will but if something did go wrong……….*

The thread was started not to condemn carrying so much as open carrying. I've not heard much said—other than personal preference—about concealed carry (probably because of your and other's point that most would never notice).

As I've been reading this thread these last days, I've thought a lot about the number of circumstances in my and my extended family's and friends' lives that would have benefitted from having a weapon, and with all those millions/billions/trillions of moments, there are zero. We live, of course, in among the safest of areas in the world, however, so perhaps I might think differently were I to live elsewhere, but I just don't see the need to carry and definitely don't see the need to be showy about carrying.

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[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The thread was started not to condemn carrying so much as open carrying. I've not heard much said—other than personal preference—about concealed carry (probably because of your and other's point that most would never notice).

As I've been reading this thread these last days, I've thought a lot about the number of circumstances in my and my extended family's and friends' lives that would have benefitted from having a weapon, and with all those millions/billions/trillions of moments, there are zero. We live, of course, in among the safest of areas in the world, however, so perhaps I might think differently were I to live elsewhere, but I just don't see the need to carry and definitely don't see the need to be showy about carrying.

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Actually the OP has advocated several time for prohibition on weapons several times and based on how that advocacy occurred it appeared to be for such restrictions to be in place virtually anywhere he shops. I did not see any support for concealed carry by the OP in the sighs he proposed, if anything the term weapons could be inferred to mean knives, pepper spray, potentially anything that could conceived as a weapon.

I specifically proposed an option to open carry (asking customers to conceal their firearms) which should be reasonable to all, but no one seems interested in that either.

It appears to be a no solution or compromise discussion.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually the OP has advocated several time for prohibition on weapons several times and based on how that advocacy occurred it appeared to be for such restrictions to be in place virtually anywhere he shops. I did not see any support for concealed carry by the OP in the sighs he proposed, if anything the term weapons could be inferred to mean knives, pepper spray, potentially anything that could conceived as a weapon.

I specifically proposed an option to open carry (asking customers to conceal their firearms) which should be reasonable to all, but no one seems interested in that either.

It appears to be a no solution or compromise discussion.

From the OP:

"Like, there is a big difference between concealed carry, and open carry in a NH Market Basket with numerous customers throughout the store."

There's definitely been a discussion of "why is a gun needed in the first place," but I've seen the thread as more of an OC vs. CC discussion.

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[DEJ]

I hear ya about the zero times in your life you would have benefited from having a firearm, same with me. However look at it this way, the one time you or someone else MIGHT need it you might be glad you had it. Two sides to every story. I carry, not always and hope I never need it.
Glad to read in another thread you are introducing your Son to firearms and I am sure you will get him and yourself all the appropriate training.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I hear ya about the zero times in your life you would have benefited from having a firearm, same with me. However look at it this way, the one time you or someone else MIGHT need it you might be glad you had it. Two sides to every story. I carry, not always and hope I never need it.

Glad to read in another thread you are introducing your Son to firearms and I am sure you will get him and yourself all the appropriate training.

Under that same rationale, though, people can justify carrying ladders. I mean, what if an earthquake hit and we had to climb out of Market Basket? That's happened exactly the same number of times everyone in my whole entire family ever needed a weapon...

Like you added, however, I do think it's important to be knowledgeable about weapons and, honestly, who knows what the future entails. I will admit that I feel a tad bit better about having weapons back in the house (I'd sold all my old ones when the kids came along) as there were some crazy things happening during the Great Recession and afterward. But then I remember that by ammo is stored separately from my guns for the kids' safety...

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Under that same rationale, though, people can justify carrying ladders. I mean, what if an earthquake hit and we had to climb out of Market Basket? That's happened exactly the same number of times everyone in my whole entire family ever needed a weapon...

Like you added, however, I do think it's important to be knowledgeable about weapons and, honestly, who knows what the future entails. I will admit that I feel a tad bit better about having weapons back in the house (I'd sold all my old ones when the kids came along) as there were some crazy things happening during the Great Recession and afterward. But then I remember that by ammo is stored separately from my guns for the kids' safety...

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The ladder statement is simply silly, you are better than this. Glad you are introducing FIREARMS back into your household.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

The ladder statement is simply silly, you are better than this. Glad you are introducing FIREARMS back into your household.

It's not, really, if you're open to what the premise is. In my whole lifetime, in all of my family members' and friends' lifetimes, a carried ladder would have been as beneficial as a gun. I'll go one step further and point out that a huge portion of firearm deaths are accidental.

So, in point of fact, the ladder would be as useful AND safer.

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

It's not, really, if you're open to what the premise is. In my whole lifetime, in all of my family members' and friends' lifetimes, a carried ladder would have been as beneficial as a gun. I'll go one step further and point out that a huge portion of firearm deaths are accidental.

So, in point of fact, the ladder would be as useful AND safer.

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You win, congratulations I should have known better.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

You win, congratulations I should have known better.

Kisses.
I get your point, I do, but at some level statistics matter more than emotion, and that's the world I exist in.

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[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Kisses.
I get your point, I do, but at some level statistics matter more than emotion, and that's the world I exist in.

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No emotion here, I pray you are never in a situation where you need it and not have it. Out.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

No emotion here, I pray you are never in a situation where you need it and not have it. Out.

And I pray you are never in a situation where you need a ladder and do not.

Ok, ok—I'll accept the blame for being snarky this time, but, ultimately, it's absolutely part of my thought process (the statistics thing, not the needing-a-ladder one).

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[Descant]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

...They have no experience/training in high stress situations. They have never been in combat. They think they are going to respond like Clint Eastwood to a shooter situation but are more likely..

It appears you think ALL open carry folks are totally inexperienced. More likely to me is that they are devoted to their sport and take any number of training programs offered by manufacturers, sporting clubs etc all around the state and nation. How can you possibly reach the conclusion that none have been in combat or had military training?

Aficionados in most sports practice, take lessons, travel to other venues to improve their skills. Those who participate in shooting sports do the same thing. You insult them by blindly assuming otherwise.

[KayakinKid]

Well, this has certainly been an interesting thread. And to think that at certain times in history, open carrying of a weapon meant one was usually seen as one of the good guys, and those that carried concealed were looked at with suspicion. My, how times have changed.

People open carry for different reasons. Are there the few that do it to show off in some way? Sure, but that usually wears off quickly. The show offs don't/won't invest money into a quality holster and belt, and soon become tired of having to pull their pants up all the time because the weight of the gun keeps pulling their belt and pants down.

From my own experience, there are some days where I just don't feel like having to dress around my gun. If it's a hot summer day, having to throw on an extra layer of clothing just to conceal carry my handgun, and be uncomfortable while doing it, doesn't make for an enjoyable day. While I don't make it a habit of open carrying, it does happen on occasion. Usually when I've gone to the range, or I'm on my way back from an all day class at the Sig Sauer Academy, and I stop to grab some dinner on the way home. I don't give two hoots about impressing anyone. It's just another day and I'm minding my own business, getting things done.

Depending on how one carries may mean additional expenses in the wardrobe department. Inside the waist band or appendix carry means buying pants that are a size or two larger. Carrying outside the waistband or in a shoulder holster means buying shirts that are larger in order to conceal properly. Not all people have the disposable income necessary to have separate wardrobes for carry and non-carry days.

If one does choose to open carry, does that entail a change in behavior? Absolutely. One who open carries should be even more attentive than usual to the environment and people around them while doing so, and should also use a quality retention holster.

No matter a persons gender, color, income, or place in society, everyone has the right to have the means to protect themselves. Criminals don't make appointments, they don't abide by the law, and they certainly don't give a hoot about gun-free zone signs. That no guns sign that makes some comfortable is merely an invitation for the criminal. It tells them that there is likely no one there to resist them and their criminal behavior. It does more to embolden the criminal than deter them. A false sense of security is no security at all. That openly armed individual that some look down upon may be the very one that risks their own life to protect that person, should a violent criminal decide that that person is going to be their next target.

If you see someone openly carrying, don't just look at the gun, look at the person. Look at their appearance, their clothing, their demeanor. A clean cut person who appears to be calm and confident, with a decent belt and holster, I wouldn't give them a second glance. The unkempt person with the nervous look about him and with a cheap belt and holster, yeah, I'm going to pay attention to him for a bit. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. For all I know, they're new to carrying, and could use some helpful advice. If that's the case, good on them for choosing to take responsibility for their own safety, and not expecting someone else to do it for them.

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

Since you asked, I would prefer guns were left unloaded, with an appropriate trigger lock, out of site, in a locked vehicle.

[YOLO]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Since you asked, I would prefer guns were left unloaded, with an appropriate trigger lock, out of site, in a locked vehicle.

What you prefer is irrelevant. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. This debate is useless. Our rights are backed up by the US Constitution and the State of NH which allows concealed or open carry, no permit needed. If a business doesn't want people carrying, they should put up a sign.

Again, there is a nanny state just to the south if there are those who do not like people exercising their second amendment rights. They frown upon it down there and feel triggered (no pun) if they find out someone has a gun, even lawfully. Live Free or Die is the motto here and many of us live by it. A gun locked in a car does not protect the owner.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by YOLO

What you prefer is irrelevant. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. This debate is useless. Our rights are backed up by the US Constitution and the State of NH which allows concealed or open carry, no permit needed. If a business doesn't want people carrying, they should put up a sign.

Again, there is a nanny state just to the south if there are those who do not like people exercising their second amendment rights. They frown upon it down there and feel triggered (no pun) if they find out someone has a gun, even lawfully. Live Free or Die is the motto here and many of us live by it. A gun locked in a car does not protect the owner.

The poster asked a question if it is preferable to leave a firearm in the car where it might be stolen or carried openly. I answered what I would prefer.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

My preference would be for them to leave it in the car, of course locked and out of sight.

Great posts, XCR and kayakinkid! Really thoughtful comments. Me personally, as I've said a few times, I don't ever feel unsafe, personally don't choose to own guns, have absolutely never had the slightest urge to be armed in public. That's me. We all have our own feelings and views on things, and I do respect and understand those that want to be armed.

I don't agree that a gun on the hip will just become normalized over time. I think that there's a significant % of the population that is fearful when they see an armed person, and will continue to be uncomfortable. I hope there aren't more and more people that decide to open carry, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by KayakinKid

People open carry for different reasons. Are there the few that do it to show off in some way? Sure, but that usually wears off quickly. The show offs don't/won't invest money into a quality holster and belt, and soon become tired of having to pull their pants up all the time because the weight of the gun keeps pulling their belt and pants down.

Food for thought; would you rather the person leave the handgun in their car so that you would feel more at ease in the store, knowing that it might be stolen out of the vehicle? Or would you rather they have it on their person in the store, openly, and under their control?

Oh please--you're just a guy in NH. Nobody's coming to shoot you in the grocery store, and no one's breaking into your car while you're at the deli counter. That gets us down to a very short list of reasons...

[mhtranger]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Oh please--you're just a guy in NH. Nobody's coming to shoot you in the grocery store, and no one's breaking into your car while you're at the deli counter. That gets us down to a very short list of reasons...

Really, you know this how? When has a mass shooting ever been where you would have expected it?

Do you know how most criminals get their guns? Yep stolen from homes and vehicles. I have a lock box (made for guns) in my truck but it wouldn’t take much to open it with a few tools.

[fatlazyless]

Jimmy "Popeye" Doyle, the movie character played by Gene Hackman in the 1971 film, The French Connection, was an undercover NYPD police officer who haunted the Manhattan subway system, chasing big-time drug dealers in these wild crazy, running chase scenes, moving from subway car to car to car.

As I recall his concealed handgun was a smallish revolver stored away in an ankle holster, and it seemed to all be a doable carrying method for Popeye Doyle as he ran like hell through the moving trolley cars! .....

Isn't that something like walking around with an anchor attached to your ankle when done in the real world of local N.H. and not in a movie scene? That ankle holster carry method probably gets old, very fast, and not very practical plus an ankle holster is no good while wearing shorts or a swim suit. ....

Apparently, from the four different individual men who I saw at various different days and times inside the Plymouth Market Basket, the gun of choice that everyone is now carrying is a black semi-auto, a large fat gun that probably has a lot of bullets. You can just forgetabout that small revolver that worked good for Popeye Doyle ....... now-a-days ...... no self-respect'n open carry DUDE would be wanting to be seen in public with a little revolver like that ...... no way! ...... it needs to be a serious semi-auto ....... with a backup magazine or two ...... today! ..... yes sir .... that's right! ....

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

You can just forgetabout that small revolver that worked good for Popeye Doyle ....... now-a-days ...... no self-respect'n open carry DUDE would be wanting to be seen in public with a little revolver like that ...... no way!

Popeye drove a Pontiac LeMans, based on the movie year must have been a 1970 or 1971 model. Based on your logic, everyone should drive 1970 vehicles, have to be showing off if you drive anything newer than that???

I'm not arguing that, IMO, many open carry people are doing so for the show, I firmly believe that. But I don't think owning a modern weapon is unreasonable.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Jimmy "Popeye" Doyle, the movie character played by Gene Hackman in the 1971 film, The French Connection, was an undercover NYPD police officer who haunted the Manhattan subway system, chasing big-time drug dealers in these wild crazy, running chase scenes, moving from subway car to car to car.

As I recall his concealed handgun was a smallish revolver stored away in an ankle holster, and it seemed to all be a doable carrying method for Popeye Doyle as he ran like hell through the moving trolley cars! .....

Isn't that something like walking around with an anchor attached to your ankle when done in the real world of local N.H. and not in a movie scene? That ankle holster carry method probably gets old, very fast, and not very practical plus an ankle holster is no good while wearing shorts or a swim suit. ....

Apparently, from the four different individual men who I saw at various different days and times inside the Plymouth Market Basket, the gun of choice that everyone is now carrying is a black semi-auto, a large fat gun that probably has a lot of bullets. You can just forgetabout that small revolver that worked good for Popeye Doyle ....... now-a-days ...... no self-respect'n open carry DUDE would be wanting to be seen in public with a little revolver like that ...... no way! ...... it needs to be a serious semi-auto ....... with a backup magazine or two ...... today! ..... yes sir .... that's right! ....

Any detail portrayed in the movies such as running through NY with a revolver in an ankle holster is just for effect and not representative of real life activity.

But if I read your post correctly you are not advocating for a revolver in an ankle holster, but at the same time you also seem to be hyper focused on what are probably rather indiscreet 9mm pocket pistols, as it is doubtful that the folks you are seeing in Market Basket are shopping with large guns such as long slide or wide body/hi cap 1911's or 50 caliber Desert Eagles on their belts.

So one would think that seeing a smallish black 9mm pocket pistol would be the most indiscreet handgun someone might have as their open carry gun. As such, shouldn't you be happy for their efforts to carry such an indiscreet pistol? My guess is that most of your fellow customers are oblivious to the people with handguns and thats a good thing.

Would you rather they carry a high polished stainless 500 S & W in a chest holster? Or maybe a gleaming stainless Death Wish 475 Wildey or Dirty Harry 44 Auto Mag just tucked in their pants like Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood,,, Of maybe the previously mentioned leather western gun belt with like 20 extra rounds on display with a beautiful pair of nickle plated Colt SAA's ala the Lone Ranger??? Now wouldn't that be an interesting site.

So many options and yet its still nearly impossible to satisfy everyone,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by mhtranger

Really, you know this how? When has a mass shooting ever been where you would have expected it?

Do you know how most criminals get their guns? Yep stolen from homes and vehicles. I have a lock box (made for guns) in my truck but it wouldn’t take much to open it with a few tools.

Very sad, and unfortunately all too true,,,

I really think this thread has run well past any value to anyone. Its just becoming an unfortunate tool to pit otherwise reasonable people against each other. I dont see any reason for the banter to continue, peoples minds are pretty made up as to where you stand on this matter and I dont see much change coming out of all this except to irritate each other. Its just a subject thats too divisive accomplish anything,,,