Radar Useful?

[hewitt52]

I apologize if there are existing threads. Didn't have much luck with the search.

I have a new to me boat 25' walkaround and am going to be using it in Lake Winni. I'm going to be replacing/upgrading the electronics. Anyone find having radar useful on the lake?

I've gone from Balmoral in Moultonborough to Town Docks in Meredith and back with a previous boat with just GPS. Only thing I can think of is it might be helpful if I boat at night.

Thanks in advance!

[DesertDweller]

We had radar on an offshore fishing boat we owned several years back. We bought it primarily because the inlets we went in and out of got really fogged in at times and we wanted the security of knowing what was in our vicinity. As you mentioned, yes it is likewise useful at night.

For Winnipesaukee it's probably overkill but you just never know when something bad/potentially bad is going to happen. With that said, while I have not priced it out lately it wasn't cheap when we bought it.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by hewitt52

I apologize if there are existing threads. Didn't have much luck with the search.

I have a new to me boat 25' walkaround and am going to be using it in Lake Winni. I'm going to be replacing/upgrading the electronics. Anyone find having radar useful on the lake?

I've gone from Balmoral in Moultonborough to Town Docks in Meredith and back with a previous boat with just GPS. Only thing I can think of is it might be helpful if I boat at night.

Thanks in advance!

I would not bother on the lake unless you regularly head out in all weather

[thinkxingu]

I think this falls into the "how much money do you have and are you a techy guy" question. It's absolutely not needed for most, but if it would be part of a cool system that brings you joy and has no impact on your finances, go for it!

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[fatlazyless]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ha..._Marine_Patrol says their Lake Winnipesaukee 24' patrol boats are equipped with GPS and radar.

Radar could be good so's you don't hit a difficult-to-see, stand-up paddle boarder, way out there without a white light at dusk ..... as that beautiful Lake Winnipesaukee sunset sets slowly into the West .... .... el cruncherino ....... yikes ..... did we just hit something!

[fltsimguy]

I've been boating on the lake since the mid-80's in all weather and frequently at night, and can only think of a couple times I've found it would have been useful. Mainly in the fog. We recently got GPS and honestly I barely look at it, it was really useful once, again in the fog. GPS and a good set of eyes are all you really need in my opinion....but it'd be nice to have! I'm always for a new toy on my boat.

[BroadHopper]

Been on the lake for 60 years. If you have your chart, a good compass, and know how to read them, you should be good. Even when foggy! Lately, the GPS and Google Maps do a great job on the cell phone, but be aware the GPS is only accurate to like 100 feet in inclement weather.
The current boat has a depth sounder. I do use it occasionally but it is not a game-changer.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

If you have your chart, a good compass, and know how to read them, you should be good.

The other keys to these tools is that they force you to learn the lake and the fundamentals. You cannot get this knowledge/security if you're always outsourcing your brain to tech

[hewitt52]

I appreciate all of the input. I think what it comes down it is trying to justify some new toys for the boat lol. Like I said, I've boated several times from Moultonborough (Balmoral) to the Town Docks in Meredith.

Funny story the first time I brought my old boat to the Lake. I had a Bizer chart and compass. I know how to read a chart and compass so I figured out I'd be good to go. It was the first time I ever had to rely on my compass however. I get out to the middle of the lake where everything looks the same. I then realize that my compass is broken. North and West worked but anything South or East it would just spin like a top.

I end up going left of an island instead of right and end up headed towards Center Harbor vs. Moultonborough. There was nobody else on the water around me to ask for my location. I finally found someone around Three Mile Island. He tells me where I am and I used the direction of the sun setting with my chart and get back just as it was getting dark. Absolutely terrifying and I got a GPS and new compass immediately after my vacation!

After that, I would use the map, compass, and my eyes primarily and the GPS as sort of insurance and (knock on wood) haven't had any issues since.

[Descant]

I've had two(used) boats with GPS and Radar. I'm comfortable with both, but rarely used them. My wife drives mostly now and made me take the GPS off the dash because it blocked her vision. The current boat has a MFD built into the dash, but she has never expressed interest in even removing the cover. Best use is in fog or rain at night, but we both went for so many (50+) years without such aids, just seemed superfluous. Couple of routes mapped for time and compass, gets us home or to the marina.

If I wanted a gadget, I'd go for FLIR. Much better to see other boats and hazards at night/fog.

[brk-lnt]

If you get a radar, you'd want one of the newer solid state units, the older technology will have a bang zone that makes it pretty useless for what you'd want on the lake (short distance detection).

The problem with radar is that you really need to be watching it a lot if you want to pick up nearby items. Too many factors that can cause poor, or spotty detection in most cases. This causes you to have to take your eyes off the water, and possibly spend too much time looking at a (relatively) bright screen at night. Even when in night mode, many modern MFDs kinda suck for retaining good night vision, IMO.

A thermal (FLIR) camera is another option, though much more costly, and still not guaranteed to see any/all hazards on the water.

If you boat with a reliable mate your best option might be to consider a decent handheld thermal monocular like the Raymarine Ocean Scout. it will be cheaper than a radar, able to pick up most hazards, and the portability of it makes it easy to potentially use for other random things. The downside is that as the captain you can't really use it by your self while underway, thus the need for a capable/competent mate.

[Rich]

I have Radar on my current boat. It's an older unit (2005) but works.

I've only found it useful maybe twice on the lake. Perhaps the newer units are much more useful?

Keep in mind that most small boats on the lake are fiberglass, and often pop in and out on the Radar. Radar needs something to reflect its signal back to be seen, and fiberglass is transparent to radar. Perhaps a lot of this popping in and out is because of my older (2005) technology? I'm not sure if one of the newer technology devices would be better in this regard, or pick up smaller Radar reflections from the engines, or metal fuel tanks, etc.

Where it helps the most is at night, such as leaving the crowded Meredith bay, or Wolfeboro bay just after the fireworks ended, but having a boat full of eyes with their heads on a swivel is usually better. We don't often get fog on the lake that surprises you, this is where Radar would be more helpful.

I would think that one of the new FLIR night vision cameras would be of more use on the lake, but I don't have one, and the field of view was pretty narrow for the one that I did briefly see in action. They can cost about the same as Radar.

With this being said, I'm a bit of a technology geek, so when I update my electronics, I'll probably also update to the newer solid state doppler Radar also. But I really would like to experiment with the FLIR thermal night vision to see if that's more useful.

[Descant]

All good points, Rich. It never really occurred to me to use radar to see other boats on the lake. Too many, too fast, on a crowded night to track on civilian radar. If it is foggy, everybody should be at headway speed. Then radar is useful as a navigation tool, on the lake, mostly to identify land masses.
I have seen digital radar on the Intracoastal that will mark larger, slower, targets, and specifically identify channel markers.

I think some of the in and out images may be related to boat size, changing target aspect and vertical motion of both target and transmitter. Digital set ups can overcome some of this.

[Broken Glass]

I just installed a Garmin Radar on my boat. The other night I came back to my house on Rattlesnake Island from Meredith at night.
After I tied up the boat I said to my wife I will never go out in a boat at night again that does not have radar. The radar is overplayed on the GPS map, so it paints every marker with the actual position of the marker. Some of the markers are not actually where they are plotted on the GPS. As far as other boats go it is like having eyes in the back of your head. Anything that is on the water shows up quite accurately on the chart. I have never worried about navigating on the lake at night. I have however always worried about the clown out there running without lights, or the guy who is driving like its daytime running up my stern and climbing over us.
In my opinion it is most definitely not a waste of money if you are going to run at night, or in bad weather. If your visibility is reduced, then so is everyone else out there. It’s really nice to be able to see clearly what and who is around you when conditions are such that your own visibility is compromised.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Broken Glass

I just installed a Garmin Radar on my boat. The other night I came back to my house on Rattlesnake Island from Meredith at night.
After I tied up the boat I said to my wife I will never go out in a boat at night again that does not have radar. The radar is overplayed on the GPS map, so it paints every marker with the actual position of the marker. Some of the markers are not actually where they are plotted on the GPS. As far as other boats go it is like having eyes in the back of your head. Anything that is on the water shows up quite accurately on the chart. I have never worried about navigating on the lake at night. I have however always worried about the clown out there running without lights, or the guy who is driving like its daytime running up my stern and climbing over us.
In my opinion it is most definitely not a waste of money if you are going to run at night, or in bad weather. If your visibility is reduced, then so is everyone else out there. It’s really nice to be able to see clearly what and who is around you when conditions are such that your own visibility is compromised.

Going from Meredith to Rattlesnake is all open water, an easy trip for experienced islanders. Not many buoys to look for. I would be more interested in your experience seeing other boats. What day of the week? What time of night? Weather conditions? What make model of radar? Digital?

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by Descant

Going from Meredith to Rattlesnake is all open water, an easy trip for experienced islanders. Not many buoys to look for. I would be more interested in your experience seeing other boats. What day of the week? What time of night? Weather conditions? What make model of radar? Digital?

I have the Raymarine Axion GPS charts and it keeps me sane at night even though I know the lake for the most part. I leave it on all the time, even during the day. They are also useful when anchoring to fish in shallow water (helps manage approach), keeps you from tossing anchor over a wreck, etc.

However, I have not activated the radar. I’m going to try it out because idiots will always be idiots

Anchor marine actually rents boats without lights equipped. I told them this was stupid; they responded by saying that they don’t allow anybody out at night.

OK, What if someone gets stuck at dusk?
Renters are bad enough even with the right equipment


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[Broken Glass]

Originally Posted by Descant

Going from Meredith to Rattlesnake is all open water, an easy trip for experienced islanders. Not many buoys to look for. I would be more interested in your experience seeing other boats. What day of the week? What time of night? Weather conditions? What make model of radar? Digital?

Garmin GMR Fantom 18”. 10PM Saturday night. Like I said the navigation for me is no problem the radar only enhances my situational awareness. The ability to see anything floating on the water most importantly other boats is in-beatable. It makes no difference how much experience you have driving back and forth on the lake if you can’t see what is around you on the water.

[trfour]

I absolutely refuse to live on the DARK side too!!

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Broken Glass

I just installed a Garmin Radar on my boat. The other night I came back to my house on Rattlesnake Island from Meredith at night.
After I tied up the boat I said to my wife I will never go out in a boat at night again that does not have radar. The radar is overplayed on the GPS map, so it paints every marker with the actual position of the marker. Some of the markers are not actually where they are plotted on the GPS. As far as other boats go it is like having eyes in the back of your head. Anything that is on the water shows up quite accurately on the chart. I have never worried about navigating on the lake at night. I have however always worried about the clown out there running without lights, or the guy who is driving like its daytime running up my stern and climbing over us.
In my opinion it is most definitely not a waste of money if you are going to run at night, or in bad weather. If your visibility is reduced, then so is everyone else out there. It’s really nice to be able to see clearly what and who is around you when conditions are such that your own visibility is compromised.

I don't have direct experience, but isn't identifying other boats on radar only good if they are on radar as well? I've been out with friends on the ocean in the fog and I know the captain wasn't concerned with where we were going, but he was concerned with all the other smaller boats that "weren't on radar".

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

I don't have direct experience, but isn't identifying other boats on radar only good if they are on radar as well? I've been out with friends on the ocean in the fog and I know the captain wasn't concerned with where we were going, but he was concerned with all the other smaller boats that "weren't on radar".

If you are operating in a low vis environment and you have radar and are painting another vessel that doesn't have radar, then he is blind but you are not. That's better than both of you being blind. When using radar in such conditions, always assume that other vessels are not as well equipped as you. Always be ready to take proper evasive action, especially if you find yourself in a constant bearing, decreasing range type situation.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Broken Glass

Garmin GMR Fantom 18”. 10PM Saturday night. Like I said the navigation for me is no problem the radar only enhances my situational awareness. The ability to see anything floating on the water most importantly other boats is in-beatable. It makes no difference how much experience you have driving back and forth on the lake if you can’t see what is around you on the water.

You've made a couple of great posts on this thread. Thanks for the added detail.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

I don't have direct experience, but isn't identifying other boats on radar only good if they are on radar as well? I've been out with friends on the ocean in the fog and I know the captain wasn't concerned with where we were going, but he was concerned with all the other smaller boats that "weren't on radar".

No, it's like AIS, ideally both boats have transmitters, but one is better than none.


Unlike AIS though, the "other" boat doesn't need to have any particular electronics in order to show up for a boat that IS running radar.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

I don't have direct experience, but isn't identifying other boats on radar only good if they are on radar as well? I've been out with friends on the ocean in the fog and I know the captain wasn't concerned with where we were going, but he was concerned with all the other smaller boats that "weren't on radar".

Radar is an anachronism for “radio detection and ranging.” Your radar unit is sending out a radio signal that bounces off of an object and then the radar unit receives the bounced wave. It knows the distance to the object by the time it takes to receive the “bounce” and the direction to the object by the direction the “bounce” returns from. It makes no difference if another boat has a radar unit or other electronics. Unless it is coated in radio wave absorbing material, or hidden in the waves it will bounce the radar signal. A boat can increase its radar visibility by installing a reflective object at its highest point. Often sailboats on the ocean will have reflective balls at the top of their masts.


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[Rich]

I can add to this for the newer RADAR units:

This past weekend I was onboard a friends boat that had the newest solid state doppler radar. It sure was much improved from my older analog (2005) Radar!

It seemed to be able to see almost every boat around (with minimal testing. just a seat of the pants observation). Even the small fiberglass boats that my older unit would often miss.

Radar is very useful at night, and has been even useful during the day to notice that someone has snuck up quickly behind you. Since we don't have rear-view mirrors on most boats you actually have to turn your body around to see if someone is close behind you. Radar let's you see/notice this without having to rotate around to take a look, so it's often useful for this. Not to mention if someone is approaching you from a side, etc.

The newer doppler radar can automatically highlight (color) boats going away from you. vs coming towards you. This adds to their situational awareness and seems very helpful.

After this short session on my friends boat, I'm looking forward to updating my electronics on my boat a bit more than i was before I had the short demo.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Rich

I can add to this for the newer RADAR units:

This past weekend I was onboard a friends boat that had the newest solid state doppler radar. It sure was much improved from my older analog (2005) Radar!

It seemed to be able to see almost every boat around (with minimal testing. just a seat of the pants observation). Even the small fiberglass boats that my older unit would often miss.

Radar is very useful at night, and has been even useful during the day to notice that someone has snuck up quickly behind you. Since we don't have rear-view mirrors on most boats you actually have to turn your body around to see if someone is close behind you. Radar let's you see/notice this without having to rotate around to take a look, so it's often useful for this. Not to mention if someone is approaching you from a side, etc.

The newer doppler radar can automatically highlight (color) boats going away from you. vs coming towards you. This adds to their situational awareness and seems very helpful.

After this short session on my friends boat, I'm looking forward to updating my electronics on my boat a bit more than i was before I had the short demo.

Helpful post. Maybe Big Guy's "anachronism" was correct after all, not just a description of the acronym. Gotta love auto correct.
In a crowded harbor, mooring field, etc, how far apart do the targets have to be before you just get clutter? I may have to rethink my old, 2003, radar, but I still want to see a FLIR demo. The New England Boat Show doesn't have the vendor booths in the quantity we used to have. Need to go to Ft Lauderdale, end of October, or maybe Annapolis or Newport.