Cost of fuel...

[camp guy]

Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by camp guy

Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?

Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.

Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

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[NH.Solar]

Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers.
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers.
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...

Those are really cool and do seem to work as advertised, based on two articles I have read. They sure are proud of them though; yikes, the prices are eye-watering!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

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But they are not forgoing other important things.
I see this all the time. People that can't afford their rent purchasing all sorts of ''toys''.
It is a choice they are making.
In 1995, Polaris and Bombardier requested independent studies on the future direction of their businesses. In 1998, they publicly released that information at the International Snowmobile Congress... most people left the room as they thought they were going to speak of global warming.
They didn't.

They spoke of the recent change to financing their own products and discovering how financially unstable those seeking their products really were.
After that, they locked the data until a shareholder lawsuit forced Polaris to release it. Bombardier, instead, chose to spin off the recreational division... that later had to go to bankruptcy due to poor management.

It was some of the earliest data that the anyone had bothered to correlate telling them that even after Reagan and O'Neil had warned Americans that savings Social Security under the Greenspan Commission plan meant the Americans would really need to focus more on retirement saving... and simply were not.

That data is not at this time eye-opening... but a lakefront home, or even a vacation home, is a luxury. Those that have saved millions for retirement and can keep the home up... pass it along without burden... and put their children/grandchildren in a position to continue to afford its upkeep... more power to them. For the rest, it is just a luxury that may be unreasonable.

It happens throughout the system.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

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I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.

They weren't saving enough for retirement.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...41.4%20million.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Dave R

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Descant

Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.

Yankee Fisherman's Co Op in Seabrook (right across the harbor from our slip) was selling diesel for $1.49 in May and June of 2020. I think it went up to $1.99 by the end of the Summer. They don't advertise and the fuel dock is not exactly obvious. My boat has a 1000 mile range at my typical 8.5 knot cruise, so I buy the vast majority of my fuel there.

Was that you in the Chris Craft that I said hi to in Gosport Harbor late last season?

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Dave R

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.

[MeredithMan]

The previous owners of our Meredith place lived there full time. It was their primary and only home. They rented it for the entire month of August to pay the taxes. They indicated that they would take all their personal stuff and cram it into their walk-in closet which they could lock from the inside. They were, (and still are), working full time, so I don't know where they went, but it wasn't on vacation.

It's one thing if you have a place as a rental/investment property, but the thought of total strangers being in my home and touching and using my things, gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[John Mercier]

They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must pay a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.

Assuming you are referring to my Hampton Beach friends, I don't think fuel costs will negatively affect Summer business at all. Historically, the vast majority of tourists in Hampton Beach aren't traveling long distances to get there and many local folks that put off travel due to high fuel costs will take vacations closer to home. It's the Wal Mart of vacation spots, it thrives regardless of economic conditions.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.

They have it setup such that it's ready to rent all the time. They live simply and travel light. They have no sentimentality about the condo or much of anything in the condo, it's like a hotel room to them. I am pretty sure they can easily afford the taxes and such without renting, it's just a nifty way to make a few bucks and let someone else pay the bills.

FWIW, my wife and I do something similar. We sold our (empty nest) house and the vast majority of of large belongings in Summer of 2020 and moved aboard our boat in Hampton Beach. We moved into a rented Hampton Beach Condo in Fall 2020 and moved back to the boat in Spring 2021 right after we bought the condo we were living in. We rented out the condo on AirBnB the entire time we were on the boat in 2021 and are doing it again this year (lots of repeat customers are booking it up already). It worked out really well for us and the rentals pay the vast majority of our condo bills for the year. We have a property manager that takes care of everything to do with the rentals.

Like our friends, we have no sentimentality about the condo; it's just a place to to live and the few valuables we have here go in storage or on the boat while the condo is rented out. Living like this is certainly not for everyone, but we are have the time of our lives. No more snow to manage, no firewood to process, no well pump to deal with, no roof to replace, no septic system to maintain, no lawn to mow, no leaves to rake, no garden to weed, no mulch to spread etc. We just pay a trivial monthly HOA fee and everything is taken care of.

Maintaining and improving the boat absorbs a lot of my time, but it's a labor of love and nowhere near as time consuming as the house and yard were. Maintaining and improving the boat is also giving me a tremendous knowledge of all the systems on board and I'm certain that will come in handy when the boat inevitably needs repair in some exotic location.

My wife and I both think last Summer was the best Summer of our lives. Releasing the lines and heading out for a week or two of Summer cruising on the New England coast is the best. The only "regret" while cruising was that we were missing out on the shenanigans with friends at the marina while we were gone. Fortunately, by the end of the season, said friends were joining us on their own boats. Anchoring for a few days in a beautiful harbor with a group of like-minded friends in a flotilla is wicked fun. We all use our dinghies to go to shore or to gather on each other's boats and have dinners together.

[fatlazyless]

Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

The Motorcraft replacement spark plug cost something like $1.49 at Walmart.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.

It was money well spent! ..... $4.19 .... ..... hey, it's a high priority DEEP snowfall item! ....

To power up the kayak and the sup this coming spring & summer will stick with that reliable energy source ..... a box of breakfast cereal ...... Quaker 'Simply Granola' .... with milk .... same price as hi-test at $4.19/box.

[Charlie T]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.

I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Charlie T

I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".

Thanks for the info. My gas container only holds one gallon of gasoline so's I should use it in the Subaru and go get a real non-ethanol single gallon from that 603-Gas in M-boro, tomorrow, after this snow storm is done for the snowblower and possibly the lawn mower & weed-wacker. Thinking a one gallon container will keep it more fresh than a larger container.

With 12" snow forecast, is smart to get out there and do the driveway ahead of the storm, before the snow falls ....... duh!!!!

[John Mercier]

If the gasoline is being used right away... ethanol or non-ethanol shouldn't matter.

It seems to be when it sits for a long time the ethanol degrades from the humid air.

[BoatHouse]

Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)

[Lake Fan]

The way things are going I think automobile gas will soon be $5.00 or $6.00 a gallon. If that's the case, marina gas could be $7.00 or more easily.

Should be more elbow room at Braun Bay this summer.

Originally Posted by BoatHouse

Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)

[AC2717]

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now.

There goes my sunsets alone

[BoatHouse]

Originally Posted by AC2717

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now.



There goes my sunsets alone

I was thinking the exact same thing!


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by BoatHouse

I was thinking the exact same thing!


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Ditto, which makes me wonder what traffic will be like...or wait times at restaurants...

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[John Mercier]

I think I might shovel more this storm... I need the exercise.