Heating systems for new home

[swnoel]

I would go with mini splits, solar , and Rinnai wall units.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

I would go with mini splits, solar , and Rinnai wall units.

We plan to put Solar in regardless of which heating we go with. If it’s feasible. We have a LOT of tall trees around the house. A few are coming down for construction. We will see how it looks once those are down. I think before trees were down not quite enough sun was getting in. Now with a few down it looks promising. But a couple more are coming down, now that house is out of the way. Roof angles for panels will be tricky too.

I know about the Solar shingles, which as far as I’ve researched are just not practical yet. Prices are staggering. Probably over $100K at least for Tesla installs. And you’d probably have to wait a year or two to get installed.

What Rinnai wall unit you referring to? For hot water?

If you’ll notice we didn’t put a fire place / chimney. But we were thinking of a vented propane stove. But after seeing old house burn to a crisp we are having 2nd thoughts of any propane. It really really hit us both. Maybe eventually I’ll be brave enough to post some photos, unless it’s your own it Matt not impact you like it did us. Never expected to feel like this. When you see smoke billowing out of the bedroom you slept in it’s scary. Even though it was all planned. But you can see what can happen. In just 1 year we were sentimentally attached. That’s just how we are.

[Lakegeezer]

Non-resident neighbors on both sides of me added heat pumps in the past year. The quiet neighborhood is no more. The outdoor units are noisy and the compressor and fan noise carry in the still cold winter air. They rarely stop, especially when it is cold. On some nights, I can even hear one of them while in bed. Seems wrong that an unoccupied house should make so much noise.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Non-resident neighbors on both sides of me added heat pumps in the past year. The quiet neighborhood is no more. The outdoor units are noisy and the compressor and fan noise carry in the still cold winter air. They rarely stop, especially when it is cold. On some nights, I can even hear one of them while in bed. Seems wrong that an unoccupied house should make so much noise.

That's a good point, what brand are they.

[Riviera]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Non-resident neighbors on both sides of me added heat pumps in the past year. The quiet neighborhood is no more. The outdoor units are noisy and the compressor and fan noise carry in the still cold winter air. They rarely stop, especially when it is cold. On some nights, I can even hear one of them while in bed. Seems wrong that an unoccupied house should make so much noise.

That noise problem has got to be a function of the brand. My new(ish) home has (2) 5-ton Mitsubishi heat pumps, that serve a total of 10 concealed air handler zones in the house. You can't even hear them unless you are 10 or 15 feet away. Even then, they are remarkably quiet.

I'm not 100% happy with the system, but it works, and isn't noisy.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Riviera

That noise problem has got to be a function of the brand. My new(ish) home has (2) 5-ton Mitsubishi heat pumps, that serve a total of 10 concealed air handler zones in the house. You can't even here them unless you are 10 or 15 feet away. Even then, they are remarkably quiet.

I'm not 100% happy with the system, but it works, and isn't noisy.

You're right about mini splits. They are very quiet. My guess is the neighbor has a standard heat pump with a conventional compressor. What don't you like about your system? My guess is the individual air handlers? I was never a big fan of those systems and always thought the individual wall or floor units did a better job.

[Riviera]

Originally Posted by swnoel

What don't you like about your system? My guess is the individual air handlers?

I'm pretty familiar with commercial HVAC systems, and my explanation would probably go beyond the level of detail warranted for this forum, but here are some tidbits:

What I "don't " like:

1. My system is a Mitsubishi "M" series system, that allows for up to 5 zones per compressor. In theory, this gives you lots of individual control in each room. However, each outdoor compressor really needs to be in either heating, or cooling, at any given time. That sounds fine, bust most people don't understand that nuance, so my guests (and spouse) are continually trying to change the system over to one mode or another. This creates issues with the system controllers, and we invariably get system errors. Ultimately, I had to resort to making one t-stat the master t-stat for setting heating or cooling mode. If I had it to do over, I would have spent the $ for a commercial grade system (called "VRF"), that would have allowed for simultaneous heating and cooling in different zones.

2. A heat pump system is slow to react to different setpoints. Most people are accustomed to turning up a t-stat, and getting a quick heating result. That doesn't happen with heat pumps.

3. My system is complex. Most techs (including the one who installed it), get lost in a sea of system complexity, software settings, and troubleshooting. I had to resort to reading the manuals myself, in order to get the system software to do some of what it needed to do for my setup to work properly.

4. There is a ton of refrigerant piping to serve this type of system. When you get a refrigerant leak, you are on a treasure hunt.


What I like:

1. The concealed air handlers that we installed (with proper duct sizing) are incredibly quiet.

2. I have 10 zones. Let's face it, most people have one zone. So, aside from family training issues, we are getting a higher degree of occupant comfort.

3. The exterior compressors are quiet. If I had installed several conventional AC compressors, I would have had to listen to them when using our outdoor spaces.


I have no idea if I might be saving money. My wife complains that the electric bills are high, so I have to explain that we don't get a big bill for fossil fuels. These days, given the energy efficiency of most new homes, I am not convinced that the theoretical savings between one system or another, are really worth the debate. On paper, you can make any system look good.

Sorry you asked?

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Riviera

I'm pretty familiar with commercial HVAC systems, and my explanation would probably go beyond the level of detail warranted for this forum, but here are some tidbits:

What I "don't " like:

1. My system is a Mitsubishi "M" series system, that allows for up to 5 zones per compressor. In theory, this gives you lots of individual control in each room. However, each outdoor compressor really needs to be in either heating, or cooling, at any given time. That sounds fine, bust most people don't understand that nuance, so my guests (and spouse) are continually trying to change the system over to one mode or another. This creates issues with the system controllers, and we invariably get system errors. Ultimately, I had to resort to making one t-stat the master t-stat for setting heating or cooling mode. If I had it to do over, I would have spent the $ for a commercial grade system (called "VRF"), that would have allowed for simultaneous heating and cooling in different zones.

2. A heat pump system is slow to react to different setpoints. Most people are accustomed to turning up a t-stat, and getting a quick heating result. That doesn't happen with heat pumps.

3. My system is complex. Most techs (including the one who installed it), get lost in a sea of system complexity, software settings, and troubleshooting. I had to resort to reading the manuals myself, in order to get the system software to do some of what it needed to do for my setup to work properly.

4. There is a ton of refrigerant piping to serve this type of system. When you get a refrigerant leak, you are on a treasure hunt.


What I like:

1. The concealed air handlers that we installed (with proper duct sizing) are incredibly quiet.

2. I have 10 zones. Let's face it, most people have one zone. So, aside from family training issues, we are getting a higher degree of occupant comfort.

3. The exterior compressors are quiet. If I had installed several conventional AC compressors, I would have had to listen to them when using our outdoor spaces.


I have no idea if I might be saving money. My wife complains that the electric bills are high, so I have to explain that we don't get a big bill for fossil fuels. These days, given the energy efficiency of most new homes, I am not convinced that the theoretical savings between one system or another, are really worth the debate. On paper, you can make any system look good.

Sorry you asked?

It doesn't surprise me at all. I've always preferred individual heads or floor units. The more complex the system is the greater chances of you never being satisfied.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Riviera

That noise problem has got to be a function of the brand. My new(ish) home has (2) 5-ton Mitsubishi heat pumps, that serve a total of 10 concealed air handler zones in the house. You can't even hear them unless you are 10 or 15 feet away. Even then, they are remarkably quiet.

I'm not 100% happy with the system, but it works, and isn't noisy.

I think he made a really good point.
I could barely ever hear the small cheap unit I installed outside.
But if it was aimed right at a neighbors window 100ft away it might be heard on a peaceful lake night.

They all have to move air in a confined space.
And the lakes can be so quiet you can hear a fish jump out of the water a 100 yards out.

If everyone had them then it will be like light pollution.
Also they tend to put out a white noise. Your brain will filter that out.
But you will notice it when you turn them off. It can mask you from hearing other pleasant night sounds you want to hear.

Just like light pollution. One light here and there seems innocent. Next thing you know you can’t see the stars any more.

I may end up with one but it’s something I will look at closely.

One other consideration is a straight air sourced heat pump.
The external unit is the same as a mini split and as efficient but is like a conventional forced hot air system in the house. So no ugly head units. The system I have in MA force hot air. You can’t hear it 1 ft away from the vents. Just constant very low flow warm air. Because fan is way down in the main unit and not turning very fast once up to temp.

[Riviera]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

One other consideration is a straight air sourced heat pump. The external unit is the same as a mini split and as efficient but is like a conventional forced hot air system in the house. So no ugly head units. The system I have in MA force hot air. You can’t hear it 1 ft away from the vents. Just constant very low flow warm air. Because fan is way down in the main unit and not turning very fast once up to temp.

A mini split “is” an air source heat pump. The only difference is that the newer “mini split” heat pumps are inverter driven, allowing them to operate at lower outdoor temperatures, and somewhat higher efficiencies. Both will heat slower than a fossil fuel heat source, because they are moving heat, not creating heat. Note that older/traditional heat pumps will not operate in New England winter weather, so you need an alternative heating source.

Further, the wall units typically associated with mini splits are only one option. My units are all concealed and ducted. They are invisible but for the supply and return registers that are typically seen on conventional forced air heating/cooling systems.

My opinion is that the modern inverter driven heat pumps will soon become the dominant HVAC systems for nearly all buildings. They are relatively simple to install, use very little space, are efficient, and do not burn fossil fuels. (Aside from whatever fossil fuels the electrical supplier might use to create electricity). They still have a few shortcomings, but they are are right there with electric vehicles in terms of technological advancements, and public acceptance. Almost every major HVAC manufacturer (Carrier, Trane, Lennox, etc) has a line of inverter driven heat pump systems. I think its only a matter of time.

[FlyingScot]

I have one outdoor Mitsubishi unit powering 7 internal units. It's not completely silent, but there is way less noise inside than an oil burner and none of the subtle vibration. If everybody had one, it would be quieter for the whole neighborhood

[John Mercier]

I think we will need to see a serious upgrade to the grid before some of the change occurs.

Not to mention overcoming the past, when everyone went to electric heat because it was so ''cheap''.

From the more recent changes in windows... seems solar is back on the page. Lots of manufacturers offering some sort of ''Passive'' option.
Not sure how well that will work without thermal mass... but I expect that I should start seeing it in some designs.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Riviera

A mini split “is” an air source heat pump. The only difference is that the newer “mini split” heat pumps are inverter driven, allowing them to operate at lower outdoor temperatures, and somewhat higher efficiencies. Both will heat slower than a fossil fuel heat source, because they are moving heat, not creating heat. Note that older/traditional heat pumps will not operate in New England winter weather, so you need an alternative heating source.

Further, the wall units typically associated with mini splits are only one option. My units are all concealed and ducted. They are invisible but for the supply and return registers that are typically seen on conventional forced air heating/cooling systems.

My opinion is that the modern inverter driven heat pumps will soon become the dominant HVAC systems for nearly all buildings. They are relatively simple to install, use very little space, are efficient, and do not burn fossil fuels. (Aside from whatever fossil fuels the electrical supplier might use to create electricity). They still have a few shortcomings, but they are are right there with electric vehicles in terms of technological advancements, and public acceptance. Almost every major HVAC manufacturer (Carrier, Trane, Lennox, etc) has a line of inverter driven heat pump systems. I think its only a matter of time.

The one mini split I have heats way faster than any oil burner forced hot water.
The forced hot air system I have in MA has 0dB outdoors my mini split and Inverter Based HVAC has some sound outdoors and is not zero. They are good but they are not zero and and agree around the lake it would not be good. Especially in areas that cottages are packed close together and not much foliage. Sorry, you will hear them.

Natural gas heating systems, even my 50 year old one I replaced never “vibrated”. Only oil burners “vibrate”. But it’s only heard indoors. I never heard a neighbors heating system. I don’t care in the burbs but I do if I was on the lake.

All air sourced heat pumps need backup in new England. It’s even common for the Geothermal to keep system size a manageable cost.

All cost aside Geothermal forced hot air is the best of all. But really expensive. And over life time pay back over air sourced heat pump.

With savings of mini split over geothermal, the difference would pay for a solar system.

Does anyone know if air sourced heat pumps (forced hot air) and mini splits qualify for the same 26% tax credit as Geothermal.

[codeman671]

I have 2 single zone Mitsubishi units at home and cannot hear them run from inside the house, and both of them are basically outside my master bedroom. Our house is primarily NG/FHA but I added the splits to some newer additions.

At the island we have 2 multi-head Mitsubishi units, both outdoor units are right below the window in my master, literally behind my headboard. I can hear a slight fan whir at most if I am focusing on it.

I am surprised to hear others are complaining about noise.

Daikin has a newer system called the VRV. It adds in propane heat to the split system, and can be set to switch to the LPG backup at a preset temp. I have yet to get any details from the dealers I have called, but want to look into it. Not all Daikin dealers are certified on them. Seems like the best of both worlds. Or a gimmick?

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I have 2 single zone Mitsubishi units at home and cannot hear them run from inside the house, and both of them are basically outside my master bedroom. Our house is primarily NG/FHA but I added the splits to some newer additions.

At the island we have 2 multi-head Mitsubishi units, both outdoor units are right below the window in my master, literally behind my headboard. I can hear a slight fan whir at most if I am focusing on it.

I am surprised to hear others are complaining about noise.

Daikin has a newer system called the VRV. It adds in propane heat to the split system, and can be set to switch to the LPG backup at a preset temp. I have yet to get any details from the dealers I have called, but want to look into it. Not all Daikin dealers are certified on them. Seems like the best of both worlds. Or a gimmick?

I couldn’t hear mine from inside the house either. But if my neighbors windows were open, they probably would.

They are NOT noisy. None of them are. But they make sound. Even 40dB ( a library) is to much I don’t think people get it.

Geothermal is silent (to your neighbors). No air sourced system is silent.

My neighbors dock lights are not bright or ugly. But I absolutely hate them because I can never have total darkness again.

If you have a whirring sound 100ft away (which isn’t that far) all summer you’ll never hear total silence again.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I couldn’t hear mine from inside the house either. But if my neighbors windows were open, they probably would.

They are NOT noisy. None of them are. But they make sound. Even 40dB ( a library) is to much I don’t think people get it.

Geothermal is silent (to your neighbors). No air sourced system is silent.

My neighbors dock lights are not bright or ugly. But I absolutely hate them because I can never have total darkness again.

If you have a whirring sound 100ft away (which isn’t that far) all summer you’ll never hear total silence again.

I do get it.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I have 2 single zone Mitsubishi units at home and cannot hear them run from inside the house, and both of them are basically outside my master bedroom. Our house is primarily NG/FHA but I added the splits to some newer additions.

At the island we have 2 multi-head Mitsubishi units, both outdoor units are right below the window in my master, literally behind my headboard. I can hear a slight fan whir at most if I am focusing on it.

I am surprised to hear others are complaining about noise.

Daikin has a newer system called the VRV. It adds in propane heat to the split system, and can be set to switch to the LPG backup at a preset temp. I have yet to get any details from the dealers I have called, but want to look into it. Not all Daikin dealers are certified on them. Seems like the best of both worlds. Or a gimmick?

I don’t hear my own AC from in the house either. But I do if I’m in my back yard. It’s not bad or loud at all. But if I was sitting on my dock in the evening on a quiet summer night, I would not want to hear ANY fan. Not mine or my neighbors.

Signed contract for Geothermal. Yes, it’s going to be a fortune.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I don’t hear my own AC from in the house either. But I do if I’m in my back yard. It’s not bad or loud at all. But if I was sitting on my dock in the evening on a quiet summer night, I would not want to hear ANY fan. Not mine or my neighbors.

Signed contract for Geothermal. Yes, it’s going to be a fortune.

I love that you put your money where your mouth is...or at least where your ears are...

Please keep us posted on how it works out

[codeman671]

One of my quotes for splits came back as 5 condensers and 12 heads using Mitsubishi. Another was 3 Daikin 36/48k outdoor units and 12 heads.

What are people seeing for electric bills with similar sized systems? Another company was trying to push us to hydro air/lp and claimed that we would be seeing $2k electric bills in the dead of winter if we went all splits, which seems like a farce to me.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by codeman671

One of my quotes for splits came back as 5 condensers and 12 heads using Mitsubishi. Another was 3 Daikin 36/48k outdoor units and 12 heads.

What are people seeing for electric bills with similar sized systems? Another company was trying to push us to hydro air/lp and claimed that we would be seeing $2k electric bills in the dead of winter if we went all splits, which seems like a farce to me.

I agree the company pushing the hybrid should not be trusted. I cannot remember the cost to run the mini splits before we had solar, but my sense was that it was about half the cost of oil. Obviously, a lot has changed since then, and oil is not propane, but the factors pushing up electric bills are also pushing up LP.

[Riviera]

Originally Posted by codeman671

One of my quotes for splits came back as 5 condensers and 12 heads using Mitsubishi. Another was 3 Daikin 36/48k outdoor units and 12 heads.

What are people seeing for electric bills with similar sized systems? Another company was trying to push us to hydro air/lp and claimed that we would be seeing $2k electric bills in the dead of winter if we went all splits, which seems like a farce to me.

There are many males/models of splits. In a cold climate like NH, it is critical that you review the efficiency ratings and capacities at the lowest likely operating temperatures. For instance, Mitsubishi has at least 3 different systems, all with different ratings at -13F. If you are buying a 60,000 btu unit, it might only provide 30,000 btu of heating capacity at full power operation. Ask to see the efficiency ratings and operating capacity charts at -13F, 0F, and 20F.

That said Daiken and Mitsubishi are the best 2 brands (been doing it the longest), so you are headed in the right direction.

I recently spoke with a friend in CA who bought a 5 zone, 5 ton (60,000 btu) Carrier system. He needs 60,000 btu at -10, but his unit only produces 28,000 btu at that temp. He’s cold, and unhappy, because he has to buy an entire new supplemental heating system for his house. His contractor assumed it had 60,000 btu down to -13F, and the marketing literature led them to think that was the case.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I don’t hear my own AC from in the house either. But I do if I’m in my back yard. It’s not bad or loud at all. But if I was sitting on my dock in the evening on a quiet summer night, I would not want to hear ANY fan. Not mine or my neighbors.

Signed contract for Geothermal. Yes, it’s going to be a fortune.

especially if it breaks down and needs to be serviced.

[swnoel]

If you can go with solar panels go with minisplits and electric HW... game over!

[DickR]

Originally Posted by swnoel

especially if it breaks down and needs to be serviced.

My own heating system is "geothermal" (GSHP - ground source heat pump), installed in 2011. The only failure thus far was the water valve (not even part of the heat pump), a couple of years in. I replaced that myself for short money, one with an improved design. Service? I slide a new air filter in now and then. Otherwise it just runs, winter and summer, and I hardly think about it.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

especially if it breaks down and needs to be serviced.

The additional expense is the ground source (drilled wells). Those don’t “break”.

System I’m getting has 10 year warranty including labor.

Overall it’s probably way more simple and more robust than an 8 head mini split setup.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

We plan to put Solar in regardless of which heating we go with. If it’s feasible. We have a LOT of tall trees around the house. A few are coming down for construction. We will see how it looks once those are down. I think before trees were down not quite enough sun was getting in. Now with a few down it looks promising. But a couple more are coming down, now that house is out of the way. Roof angles for panels will be tricky too.

I know about the Solar shingles, which as far as I’ve researched are just not practical yet. Prices are staggering. Probably over $100K at least for Tesla installs. And you’d probably have to wait a year or two to get installed.

What Rinnai wall unit you referring to? For hot water?

If you’ll notice we didn’t put a fire place / chimney. But we were thinking of a vented propane stove. But after seeing old house burn to a crisp we are having 2nd thoughts of any propane. It really really hit us both. Maybe eventually I’ll be brave enough to post some photos, unless it’s your own it Matt not impact you like it did us. Never expected to feel like this. When you see smoke billowing out of the bedroom you slept in it’s scary. Even though it was all planned. But you can see what can happen. In just 1 year we were sentimentally attached. That’s just how we are.

Not hot water... I'd never put one of those in. They're very susceptible to high mineralized water and require expensive maintenance. If I could do solar my HW would be electric. These are the Rinnai units I mentioned. I've installed many of these and they are great. https://www.rinnai.us/residential/direct-vent-furnaces If you can go with solar you'll have it made. By the way propane is very safe. I worked with it for years and the only issues I ever saw were ones where someone did something stupid. Geothermal would be the last thing I'd recommend... it's extremely expensive, but it does sound great in a perfect world.