Disturbing Gunstock situation

[Leoskeys]

As a Gunstock season pass holder for nine years, I knew some odd things were going on in the background. But didn’t realize it was this bad…
So a Belmont State Rep who wants NH to secede from the USA, and calls NH’s state government illegitimate, wants more control over decisions impacting Gunstock?

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-02...dnov_APFxy3CTk

[WinnisquamZ]

Don’t ski, but have followed this soap opera a bit. Can it be as simple as the conservatives representing Belknap county fear overspending? The citizens of Belknap are responsible for any and all defaults of Gunstock.


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[fatlazyless]

As one of 400 NH state reps who get paid one hundred dollars per year, it sure seems these political wack-a-doozies just want more to do and more power by grabbing the money controls on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunstock_Mountain_Resort. .....

[StevenGilford]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Don’t ski, but have followed this soap opera a bit. Can it be as simple as the conservatives representing Belknap county fear overspending? The citizens of Belknap are responsible for any and all defaults of Gunstock.


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The true conservatives on the committee support Gunstock and the current structure. It's the FreeState Libertarian conservatives and their followers who are causing the issues. They have also been underfunding the nursing home and sheriff's department, slashing way in excess of the conservative majority county commissioners proposed budgets (which are supported by the actual conservatives).

[WinnisquamZ]

True conservatives, free state libertarians, actual conservatives. Conservatives spend within their means. Name call all you like. They were elected to do exactly what they are attempting to do


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

True conservatives, free state libertarians, actual conservatives. Conservatives spend within their means. Name call all you like. They were elected to do exactly what they are attempting to do


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Gunstock is not spending outside its means.

The debate was whether Gunstock should be run as a business or not.
Well run businesses have gone to profit sharing (management bonuses being part of that) for several decades now to align the owners' interests with the employees' interest.

The libertarian debate is whether a government entity should compete with private interests.
The alpine skiing itself doesn't... as I can't think of any other alpine skiing in the county... support businesses are questionable.

For someone focused on taxpayers, most of the delegates would want Gunstock to increase profits - thus providing more to the county, and lowering the demand on local property owners to fund the county operations. To delegates from Gilford, it would be better for Gilford property tax payers to have those support businesses on private taxable property.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

True conservatives, free state libertarians, actual conservatives. Conservatives spend within their means. Name call all you like. They were elected to do exactly what they are attempting to do


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I agree with your statement here. By this definition, I'm a conservative. I also agree with government oversight of government assets.

The problem though, as pointed out above, is that these guys have also proposed that NH secede from the US. No patriotic American--whether conservative, liberal, libertarian...--should trust them.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I agree with your statement here. By this definition, I'm a conservative. I also agree with government oversight of government assets.

The problem though, as pointed out above, is that these guys have also proposed that NH secede from the US. No patriotic American--whether conservative, liberal, libertarian...--should trust them.

Yes, that is the agenda of a few of them. However, that has nothing to do with Gunstock and it’s management of spending and operations. The Belknap reps are just doing there job. We get the opportunity to vote again soon


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Yes, that is the agenda of a few of them. However, that has nothing to do with Gunstock and it’s management of spending and operations. The Belknap reps are just doing there job. We get the opportunity to vote again soon


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It's a trust issue for me. If a normal conservative or a normal liberal came up with this plan, I might not agree at first, but I'd listen closely. When it's these guys, I don't believe a word they say.

[John Mercier]

What plan?
I haven't seen the delegation put forth a plan.

There are grievances that bonuses were given out... but in the past, many argued that the operation had to be run more like a business.

I'm not sure I see a plan - maybe just a lack of understanding business practices.

[StevenGilford]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

True conservatives, free state libertarians, actual conservatives. Conservatives spend within their means. Name call all you like. They were elected to do exactly what they are attempting to do


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The point is that they are all conservatives. It's a conservative budget submitted by conservative commissioners to a 100% republican/conservative delegation which has multiple conservative views on the reasonableness of the budget.

So please differentiate "living within their means" vs. "indiscriminate slashing of budgets regardless of consequences"

[WinnisquamZ]

One persons “indiscriminate slashing of budgets” is another’s “living within one’s means”.
I sit here typing looking down at the jeans I wear with patches. Boots with a bit of duck tape and drinking coffee I made myself. Living within one’s means has a different meaning to many


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[John Mercier]

True. But if you end up at/needing the nursing home... you will want a little mercy.

The issue really seems to be a matter of whether Gunstock should do whatever it takes to make more money and cover more of the county budget; or whether it should be restricted from competing against local private investment and thus provide Gilford with more money to offset its property taxes.

I get both sides. But with Laconia having the largest number of delegates, and a pretty hefty payout to the county budget while trying to remain within its tax cap... I think we will see ongoing pressure for Gunstock to pull out all the stops and go for revenue wherever they can find it.

They can only cut the county budget so much before they have to find other means to fund... and I know that in Belmont, I would rather not be in the form of more property tax rather than a hotel/restaurant at Gunstock.

[map]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Don’t ski, but have followed this soap opera a bit. Can it be as simple as the conservatives representing Belknap county fear overspending? The citizens of Belknap are responsible for any and all defaults of Gunstock.


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Bingo! I know several members of the delegation and the goal is transparency. It’s taxpayer money after all.

[NH.Solar]

I think that Mr Sylvia would find his life's efforts better served if he moved to Grafton and started to write a follow up to the excellent book/documentary, "A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear".
That being said however, I am very glad to live in a State where opinions, even if they might be viewed a fringe, are not only allowed but welcomed.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by map

Bingo! I know several members of the delegation and the goal is transparency. It’s taxpayer money after all.

The commission has been pretty transparent. I think we would be better served with a few basic questions on the proposal before us... but I don't think that was the point.

Obviously being offered $5 million for the lease of land, along with a percentage of profits from the operation of the hotel - maybe the restaurant? - is interesting.

I can presume the $5 million is a one time payment, and the commission would like to use that in advancing the capital investment in Gunstock; but what about the profit sharing?

Would the profit sharing go toward the county budget? What is the profit sharing details? How due we prevent the hotel/restaurant operators from cooking the books? Just lots of questions for the taxpayer of Belknap County.

But I think to get more revenue... and maybe pay more to the county... Gunstock would need to add something to the venue.

[swnoel]

Those damn Republicans need to be removed and replaced with democrats... look how good things are in this country and the world now that Democrats are in control and things are back to normal as they promised.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Those damn Republicans need to be removed and replaced with democrats... look how good things are in this country and the world now that Democrats are in control and things are back to normal as they promised.

Exactly - cleaning up after a four year mess!

[fatlazyless]

John McCain: Russia is a 'gas station masquerading as a country' ..... http://www.theweek.com/speedreads/45...rading-country

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Those damn Republicans need to be removed and replaced with democrats... look how good things are in this country and the world now that Democrats are in control and things are back to normal as they promised.

Nobody has said that. Actually, I pretty much said the opposite--that any normal liberal or conservative proposal would be good to consider. The issue is not that these guys are Republican--there are many fine Republican politicians in NH, and many fine Democrats. The issues is that these guys are anti-American. Here is normal Republican NH House Speaker Sherman Packard denouncing racist secessionist views expressed by Michael Sylvia

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-09...sylvia-belmont

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The commission has been pretty transparent. I think we would be better served with a few basic questions on the proposal before us... but I don't think that was the point.

Obviously being offered $5 million for the lease of land, along with a percentage of profits from the operation of the hotel - maybe the restaurant? - is interesting.

I can presume the $5 million is a one time payment, and the commission would like to use that in advancing the capital investment in Gunstock; but what about the profit sharing?

Would the profit sharing go toward the county budget? What is the profit sharing details? How due we prevent the hotel/restaurant operators from cooking the books? Just lots of questions for the taxpayer of Belknap County.

But I think to get more revenue... and maybe pay more to the county... Gunstock would need to add something to the venue.

I would expect many of these questions to be answered by following the precedent set by the State of NH leasing Sunapee to a private firm ~20 years ago. Lots of experience there, mostly successful, with a similar proposal for a land swap and condo expansion, as well as incorporating Mittersill into the Cannon area.

[John Mercier]

They may have answered them... just the public reporting may be lacking on the details of the lease.

I would be supportive of $5 million of for the lease in perpetuity with a percentage of revenue (the Meals & Rental works on that basis) toward the county budget.

Obviously, I would still want the County Commissioners and Delegates to keep a lid on their spending; the stronger revenue offsetting the amounts to be raised by property taxes.

It isn't like a lot of private investment is looking toward Gunstock.

[map]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Nobody has said that. Actually, I pretty much said the opposite--that any normal liberal or conservative proposal would be good to consider. The issue is not that these guys are Republican--there are many fine Republican politicians in NH, and many fine Democrats. The issues is that these guys are anti-American. Here is normal Republican NH House Speaker Sherman Packard denouncing racist secessionist views expressed by Michael Sylvia

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-09...sylvia-belmont

Lies. I know these people and they are not anti American. They are anti corruption and anti tyranny and FOR freedom and fiscal responsibility. Secession bill sent a message.

[John Mercier]

The message that we are stupid?

And by definition, if you try to secede from America, you are anti-American... because it certainly isn't pro-American.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Nobody has said that. Actually, I pretty much said the opposite--that any normal liberal or conservative proposal would be good to consider. The issue is not that these guys are Republican--there are many fine Republican politicians in NH, and many fine Democrats. The issues is that these guys are anti-American. Here is normal Republican NH House Speaker Sherman Packard denouncing racist secessionist views expressed by Michael Sylvia

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-09...sylvia-belmont

It's pretty clear that the Democrats are at war against those that refuse to accept we're a Democracy (even though we're a Republic). I've never seen this kind of hatred in my life! What we're experiencing now is what you get when you order a president through the mail. The Democrat Party is clearly becoming a lynch mob and anyone in their way will become a casualty to their demands... I'm glad they finally defeated Covid... but, should I thank their buddy Putin for this instead?

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by swnoel

It's pretty clear that the Democrats are at war against those that refuse to accept we're a Democracy (even though we're a Republic). I've never seen this kind of hatred in my life! What we're experiencing now is what you get when you order a president through the mail. The Democrat Party is clearly becoming a lynch mob and anyone in their way will become a casualty to their demands... I'm glad they finally defeated Covid... but, should I thank their buddy Putin for this instead?

A presidential republic and democracy go hand in hand. From wiki:

The primary positions of power within a republic are attained through democracy or a mix of democracy with oligarchy or autocracy rather than being unalterably occupied by any given family lineage or group.


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[I.C.Isles]

Some other thoughts from old dead guys that were interesting…

Alexander Hamilton – Federal Convention, June 26, 1787

Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.

Thomas Jefferson

Democracy… while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide.

John Adams

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by swnoel

It's pretty clear that the Democrats are at war against those that refuse to accept we're a Democracy (even though we're a Republic). I've never seen this kind of hatred in my life! What we're experiencing now is what you get when you order a president through the mail. The Democrat Party is clearly becoming a lynch mob and anyone in their way will become a casualty to their demands... I'm glad they finally defeated Covid... but, should I thank their buddy Putin for this instead?

Democrats have nothing to do with my post--I cited the Republican NH House Speaker criticizing Mike Sylvia's secessionist views. Also, as cited in the article, when Sylvia talks "tyranny" he's attacking Republican Governor Sununu.

Also odd that you suggest Democrats are buddies with Putin during a week when President Biden has been resolute and all Democrats and most Republicans have been equally tough. Although several prominent Republicans have spoken admiringly of Putin...

It's all good with me if you want to criticize Democrats on specific stuff they've actually done. But let's not criticize Democrats for stuff that Republicans have done.

[John Mercier]

That is why we use a Democratic Republic.

But what these gentlemen proposed was trying to rob a bank by holding a gun to their own heads and threatening to shoot if the teller didn't hand over the loot.