Island Cottages/Camps

[John Mercier]

Are there many island cottage/camps that still exist with siding direct-to-stud construction?

I know one of the POH properties had to be upgraded while keeping the look... but was not sure if it is still predominate on three season properties.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Are there many island cottage/camps that still exist with siding direct-to-stud construction?

I know one of the POH properties had to be upgraded while keeping the look... but was not sure if it is still predominate on three season properties.

Yes - quite a few I know of on Bear (including mine).

[Flyfisha]

If you count T1-11 on studs count me in!! Camp and outhouse

[John Mercier]

I asked because engineered and dimensional lumber is becoming a bit expensive.
So with shear bracing on framing - an older technique - we could help owners looking to build new camps with some cost savings.

[upthesaukee]

I have friends who had, among 3 members of the families, owned 3 cottages in the Alton Bay campground back in the 1980s. In the course of showing us the houses, I found it interesting to notice the walls were all tongue in groove siding or bead board. Bare studs on the inside, showing there was no insulation throughout. There was a cookout, usually around Columbus day, when they drained the plumbing in all three buildings. Many hands made quick work.

All three have been sold now, but the structures are still there.

Dave

[John Mercier]

Older camps and cottages were...
I just wasn't sure that the newer camps/cottages were/were not having problems with the local building code enforcer.

The reason that we went to 2x6 framing for the most part was to fit extra fiberglass insulation in the walls.

For a three season, not really necessary. So using an older building technique can lower the amount of dimensional and engineered lumber; that can help bring down the costs especially for a DYIer.

[Lake Fan]

An associate who is trying to build a seasonal camp on an island was told that there is no separate building code for a "seasonal" building. He's looking for documentation on that, but if the local official decrees it I'm not sure what options you might have.

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Older camps and cottages were...
I just wasn't sure that the newer camps/cottages were/were not having problems with the local building code enforcer.

The reason that we went to 2x6 framing for the most part was to fit extra fiberglass insulation in the walls.

For a three season, not really necessary. So using an older building technique can lower the amount of dimensional and engineered lumber; that can help bring down the costs especially for a DYIer.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Lake Fan

An associate who is trying to build a seasonal camp on an island was told that there is no separate building code for a "seasonal" building. He's looking for documentation on that, but if the local official decrees it I'm not sure what options you might have.

It will need to be built to standard building codes. Even large remodels need to be brought up to code. We just renovated our 1200sqft island cottage last season in Meredith and everything had to be to code. We got caught up on bedroom window egress. We were just replacing bedroom windows with new and not changing the RO, but they didn't meet egress so we had to buy them again and enlarge...

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by codeman671

It will need to be built to standard building codes. Even large remodels need to be brought up to code. We just renovated our 1200sqft island cottage last season in Meredith and everything had to be to code. We got caught up on bedroom window egress. We were just replacing bedroom windows with new and not changing the RO, but they didn't meet egress so we had to buy them again and enlarge...

Agree. Going through a kitchen/living room remodel now. All plumbing,electrical, framing must be brought up to code. $$$$$$


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by codeman671

It will need to be built to standard building codes. Even large remodels need to be brought up to code. We just renovated our 1200sqft island cottage last season in Meredith and everything had to be to code. We got caught up on bedroom window egress. We were just replacing bedroom windows with new and not changing the RO, but they didn't meet egress so we had to buy them again and enlarge...

It is important to let the window designer know when a window must be egress or tempered for code.

The item I am looking at is not signified in the IRC.
It can be done may different ways. The trick is to determine the limitations of transport, skill and background of the builder, and costs associated with each option.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Flyfisha

If you count T1-11 on studs count me in!! Camp and outhouse

T-111 in a 5/8 fir would be a normal goto. It covers the shear rating requirement and acts as siding; but it is currently around $80/sheet.
Shear bracing along with a board and batten made from 1x12 rough sawn form board would come in around $40 for the same coverage... but requires the extra bracing.

What I am expecting is transport costs to be very high this summer.
We can meet the energy code requirement on the mainland with either 2x6 construction with R19/R21 fiberglass, cellulose, or spray foam... but that may not be easy on an island build.

With zip or OSB/CDX with housewrap, we get into the $60/sheet plus before even applying a siding. When insulating, the cellulose needs a blower, and the spray foam need special equipment normally stored on a van; so fiberglass or maybe a scoreboard option would need to be looked to.

[WinnisquamZ]

What’s got us over budget is the electric. Cost of wire has almost tripled since the job was bid out. Sheetrock and tape up 20% the past month


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[Descant]

The island camps have been in place for many multiple generations. Upgrading to 4 season mainland standards is unnecessary. I understand better electrical systems, but the rest is overkill. I expect there are still a lot of DIY's who follow the rule: "If it looks OK from the Weirs bridge, it's OK." Guess what people are doing on the small lakes. Plumbing patched with garden hose connected to copper connected to PVC, and whatever the ne plastic stuff is. Places move from generation to generation, never have buyers inspections, and everybody is fine.

[John Mercier]

Electric is not really easy to overcome.
Wire cost is just outrageous at this point.
Sheetrock has some other options, but I would need to do a price comparison.
In the past the nickel gap was cost competitive.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Descant

The island camps have been in place for many multiple generations. Upgrading to 4 season mainland standards is unnecessary. I understand better electrical systems, but the rest is overkill. I expect there are still a lot of DIY's who follow the rule: "If it looks OK from the Weirs bridge, it's OK." Guess what people are doing on the small lakes. Plumbing patched with garden hose connected to copper connected to PVC, and whatever the ne plastic stuff is. Places move from generation to generation, never have buyers inspections, and everybody is fine.

Right there with you. But, when you hire out they must build by code or risk losing their license. Sure you understand. Over the past 50 years the plumbing waste line went from cast iron, to copper to PVC. All connected. Even found a spam can being used as a electrical junction box!


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[hemlock]

Just built a timber frame on an island. It was pretty simple to meet code issues
for example the windows needed to be framed to allow the correct clear height and width and if within a certain distance from the floor tempered glass and on second floors having latches to prevent full opening for child safe reasons.

The timber frame was local NH white pine sawed out by a sawyer who had the grading training and could provide a grade certificate which code enforcement required.

The sheathing is 1 inch white pine with roof and walls covered with one inch polyisocyanurate then sided over with vertical white pine and battens. It does not meet the envelope code as its only 8.6 r value but is adequate for a 3 season structure. Code will only allow wood stoves for heating however. With no cavity spaces electric is all surface mount in MC cable and metal boxes. A little rustic but neatly done and functional.

With shoreland permitting septic installation and precast concrete footings, materials and a lot of volunteer labor we are at around 76.50 per square foot at this point.

[WinnisquamZ]

Wood stove is great. Surprised that a wood stove is the only allowed heat source.


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by hemlock

Just built a timber frame on an island. It was pretty simple to meet code issues
for example the windows needed to be framed to allow the correct clear height and width and if within a certain distance from the floor tempered glass and on second floors having latches to prevent full opening for child safe reasons.

The timber frame was local NH white pine sawed out by a sawyer who had the grading training and could provide a grade certificate which code enforcement required.

The sheathing is 1 inch white pine with roof and walls covered with one inch polyisocyanurate then sided over with vertical white pine and battens. It does not meet the envelope code as its only 8.6 r value but is adequate for a 3 season structure. Code will only allow wood stoves for heating however. With no cavity spaces electric is all surface mount in MC cable and metal boxes. A little rustic but neatly done and functional.

With shoreland permitting septic installation and precast concrete footings, materials and a lot of volunteer labor we are at around 76.50 per square foot at this point.

The second floor latches are not really required by code in a residential application. For a rental unit, they must be included. And for vinyl windows, they can actually be a later upgrade... the other windows I sell need them right off.

[Riviera]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The second floor latches are not really required by code in a residential application. For a rental unit, they must be included. And for vinyl windows, they can actually be a later upgrade... the other windows I sell need them right off.

Sometimes I read your “factual” posts and roll my eyes. In this case, I think its important to post a rebuttal. Below is an excerpt from the 2015 International Residential Code, which is the primary governing code for single family residences throughout the State of NH. Can you please cite the code section that limits this clause to rental units, or allows some sort of exemption for vinyl windows?

[Descant]

Originally Posted by hemlock

Just built a timber frame on an island. It was pretty simple to meet code issues
for example the windows needed to be framed to allow the correct clear height and width and if within a certain distance from the floor tempered glass and on second floors having latches to prevent full opening for child safe reasons.

The timber frame was local NH white pine sawed out by a sawyer who had the grading training and could provide a grade certificate which code enforcement required.

The sheathing is 1 inch white pine with roof and walls covered with one inch polyisocyanurate then sided over with vertical white pine and battens. It does not meet the envelope code as its only 8.6 r value but is adequate for a 3 season structure. Code will only allow wood stoves for heating however. With no cavity spaces electric is all surface mount in MC cable and metal boxes. A little rustic but neatly done and functional.

With shore land permitting septic installation and precast concrete footings, materials and a lot of volunteer labor we are at around 76.50 per square foot at this point.

It is certainly easier to meet code on new construction than when rebuilding. We went through a period when older camps converted to electricity from propane, not only for cooking etc. but for lighting. Then minimal electric service was added and some years later another outlet was added. And then more juice as we kept popping CB's when the toaster and coffee pot were on at the same time.
I don't understand the "code will only allow wood stoves for heating." There must be more to it than that. Electric? Propane? I used to use coal.

[John Mercier]

Architects design windows to be above the 2' floor to sill threshold... since they have no idea whether you will use the window manufacturer as prescribed in the plan. So unless someone renovates the sill heights... they should all meet the 2' threshold. This keeps designs and grades from being altered in the future in such a way as to violate the 6' rule.

The usual situation is a residential home that is then being used as a commercial... with a vinyl, the manufacturers that I have used have a field application option, while the others require the WOCD to be factory installed.

Historically, a 3' height was used to allow furnishing to be placed below a window without blocking it.

I've quoted a lot of windows for a lot of houses, and the WOCD option is seldom needed. That being because the 2' rule was initial followed in the framing.

In fact, I will not name the well known builder that had a customer request the WOCD and because the windows were all the same size, accidently placed almost all the WOCD units on the first floor... that is how I learned the little trick on the vinyl windows.

[Riviera]

John,

With all due respect, you are providing well articulated gobbledygook. As I alluded to in my prior post, the code requirements for window protective opening devices has nothing to do with rentals, and nothing to do with vinyl.

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Architects design windows to be above the 2' floor to sill threshold... since they have no idea whether you will use the window manufacturer as prescribed in the plan. So unless someone renovates the sill heights... they should all meet the 2' threshold. This keeps designs and grades from being altered in the future in such a way as to violate the 6' rule.

Architects often design homes with 2nd floor windows that have a sill height lower than 2 feet, particularly on higher end homes where a view is important. In that case, code requires the opening protection.

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The usual situation is a residential home that is then being used as a commercial... with a vinyl, the manufacturers that I have used have a field application option, while the others require the WOCD to be factory installed.

Huh? A home that is being used as commercial? Whether or not the device is field installed or factory installed is irrelevant. The window material is also irrelevant. If you are building a new residential home, and you don't meet the height/opening exemptions, you need the device in order to comply with the code. Period.

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I've quoted a lot of windows for a lot of houses, and the WOCD option is seldom needed. That being because the 2' rule was initial followed in the framing.

I'm sure there are a high percentage of new builds that meet the 2' sill height threshold. That said, this section of the code is often ignored or overlooked by architects, builders, and/or code officials. It doesn't help when building supply professionals provide mis-leading or incorrect information on internet forums.

Originally Posted by John Mercier

In fact, I will not name the well known builder that had a customer request the WOCD and because the windows were all the same size, accidently placed almost all the WOCD units on the first floor... that is how I learned the little trick on the vinyl windows.

I don't understand the vinyl "trick". Given the error, the solution is either to move the windows to the correct location, or install retrofit devices that comply with code. The window material is irrelevant. Builders screw up all the time, reputable or otherwise. The reputable ones fix it. The non-reputable ones make excuses.

I'm not trying to bust your chops. I'm simply suggesting that as a building supply professional, you need to be careful to either post accurate facts relevant to your profession, or don't post at all. Somebody might just make a bad purchase based on these statements, and your employer would not be happy.

For those reading the forums, "trust but verify". The trust portion is optional, and at your own risk.

[hemlock]

Its what I was told by code enforcement here is results of a search
Exception: The following low-energy buildings, or portions thereof, separated from the
remainder of the building by building thermal envelope assemblies complying with this section
shall be exempt from the building thermal envelope provisions of Section R402:
1. Those with a peak design rate of energy usage less than 3.4 Btu/h ft2 or 1.0 watts per
square foot (watt/ft2) of floor area for space conditioning purposes.
2. Those that do not contain conditioned space.
]3. Buildings and structures for which heating and cooling is supplied solely by utilization of
non-purchased renewable energy sources including, but not limited to, on-site wind, onsite
water or on-site solar power, or wood-burning heating appliances that do not rely on
backup heat from other purchased, non-renewable sources.[/COLOR]

[John Mercier]

International RESIDENTIAL Code is 24 inch at the sill. For a change of use to COMMERCIAL, the IBC is 36 inch at the sill.

JeldWen and Silverline have the WOCD built into the top sill.
Mathews Brothers have the WOCD built into a balance cover.

For any of the above when two identical windows exist, the WOCD can be moved without removing the window frame.
For the Mathews Brothers, even if the two windows are simply sized the same... the balance cover can be removed and inserted into the other window's channel.

WOCD must be factory installed from Marvin, Andersen, and JeldWen wood windows... after market retrofit devices void the warranty.

The programs we use ''scream'' at us whenever we try to do anything that doesn't meet code. Site changes is what we cannot control... those are the BCI. While some may ''overlook'' it, I can't imagine that the number of different jurisdictions that we sell into not one would be found.

WOCD registers a ''flag''. You cannot just skip past that question.
Tempered glass or Egress do not.