Daylight Savings Time

[John Mercier]

The problem with that would be the adjustment to the working world.
High school students have already been conditioned to believe that they should only be working during the day and weekends off.

But if all the stores and restaurants closed for the weekends, what would that look like? What if they only opened Monday to Friday 6am to 6pm?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The problem with that would be the adjustment to the working world.
High school students have already been conditioned to believe that they should only be working during the day and weekends off.

But if all the stores and restaurants closed for the weekends, what would that look like? What if they only opened Monday to Friday 6am to 6pm?

I'm not worried about that--most high schoolers are headed to college, where only Freshmen and "losers" take 9am classes...

[John Mercier]

Well, If they all head off to college...
You won't have any labor for those stores and restaurants.

Be prepared for the price of labor to go up... and the price of goods/services to accelerate. It will be like when I worked in manufacturing with shift differentials and double time plus pay for weekend/holiday hours.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Well, If they all head off to college...
You won't have any labor for those stores and restaurants.

Be prepared for the price of labor to go up... and the price of goods/services to accelerate. It will be like when I worked in manufacturing with shift differentials and double time plus pay for weekend/holiday hours.

With all due respect, I think you're kind of out on a limb here. I did not say anything about more kids going to college if this takes effect. i said most high schoolers in the US do go to college (already).

[John Mercier]

And by applying labor to stores and restaurants... I was insinuating those that may not.

They're the ones that we are going to feel locally.

The college educated ones already felt the privilege of week day only schedules.

[Crusty]

It seems that while most people like to get more daylight later in the summer, they don't like that hour jump in March and September when we switch between EST and DST.

The solution is simple.

Instead of moving the clock ahead an hour every March, we should start advancing it by just 2 minutes per week in March and then start falling back 2 minutes per week in November. This will gradually lengthen the amount of daylight in the evening. The implementation is simple. Cell phones and Internet connected equipment will adjust automatically. Through frequent practice, people will finally be able to remember just how to set their watches and car clocks without finding the manuals. The clocks on the stove and microwave will continue to blink as usual.

Many communists and flat-earthers will disagree with my solution, but this is too important an issue to just "kick the can down the road".

[John Mercier]

They could make any of the clocks auto set based on radio signals.

The funny part... long haul truckers generally cross through several time zones... were in an instant they are an hour into the future or past... and they seem to do it without so much as a gripe.

I used to fly time zone to time zone, and never even really noticed it.

[SailinAway]

This question seems more important for people who have a very short day in the winter---New Hampshire, for example. Regardless of the time on the clock, the fact is (in my opinion) that the daylight hours are just too short in the winter for mental and physical health and getting things done. I find it hard to schedule outdoor exercise in the winter when the sun sets at 4:00. (I quit my gym, a.k.a. the Flu Factory, so my only exercise is outdoors.) Of course, millions of people north of us have it far worse.

The choices are to have the sun rise at 8:00 a.m. (actually 8:17 would be the latest sunrise in New Hampshire!) or set at 4:00 p.m. I can't stand the 4:00 sunset, but I would also hate an 8:17 sunrise. You wouldn't even be fully awake until 9:00.

However, psychologically, I think it's easier to get up at, say, 6:00 a.m. knowing that it's getting lighter and lighter even if the sun doesn't rise until 8:00 than it is to get to 3:00 p.m. and realize there's only one hour left in the day. So I vote for year-round daylight savings time because I find that extra hour at the end of the day more useful, though as a Northerner I find both choices onerous.

In Miami the shortest day is 10 hours 34 minutes. In New Hampshire it's 9 hours. Boy, that extra hour and a half would make a big difference psychologically and practically. The best solution would be to get the earth straight on its axis and flatten it down like a pancake so there would be no latitudinal differences in the length of the day or seasons. (People at the center of the disk could be cold, though.)

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The problem with that would be the adjustment to the working world.
High school students have already been conditioned to believe that they should only be working during the day and weekends off.

But if all the stores and restaurants closed for the weekends, what would that look like? What if they only opened Monday to Friday 6am to 6pm?

I agree. Ever since they started this nonsense about changing hours for the kids because they are too tired, it has aggravated me. Go to bed earlier so you can wake up in the morning!! What are all these kids going to do when they live in the real world and the world doesn't revolve around them?

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tis

I agree. Ever since they started this nonsense about changing hours for the kids because they are too tired, it has aggravated me. Go to bed earlier so you can wake up in the morning!! What are all these kids going to do when they live in the real world and the world doesn't revolve around them?

Literally almost every study shows that young people's circadian rhythms are different than really young and old people's. It's the reason why our grandparents would get up at 5 and our teens will sleep in until noon. There's no secret there.

Areas that have later start times for young people have improved academic scores, higher rates of attendance, better physical and mental health outcomes, reduced dependence in caffeine, fewer driving accidents...there's a multitude of benefits.

Besides, we're like totally talking about starting school at 8-9 AM, which is, like, EXACTLY the core starting time for "real jobs." Ya know, like the song says, "workin' 9-5, what a way to make a livin'!"

Oh, no—did I just slip into FLL for a moment there?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Literally almost every study shows that young people's circadian rhythms are different than really young and old people's. It's the reason why our grandparents would get up at 5 and our teens will sleep in until noon. There's no secret there.

Areas that have later start times for young people have improved academic scores, higher rates of attendance, better physical and mental health outcomes, reduced dependence in caffeine, fewer driving accidents...there's a multitude of benefits.

Besides, we're like totally talking about starting school at 8-9 AM, which is, like, EXACTLY the core starting time for "real jobs." Ya know, like the song says, "workin' 9-5, what a way to make a livin'!"

Oh, no—did I just slip into FLL for a moment there?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Were these “peer reviewed” studies? Our grandparents got up at 5 because they had jobs and worked their butts off. Teenagers sleep until noon because they’re lazy and still have their umbilical cords plugged into their parents (who are mostly at fault because they enable this behavior). There must be some kind of “bias” label (excuse) for this problem, just like there’s a bias label (excuse) for everything else.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Were these “peer reviewed” studies? Our grandparents got up at 5 because they had jobs and worked their butts off. Teenagers sleep until noon because they’re lazy and still have their umbilical cords plugged into their parents (who are mostly at fault because they enable this behavior). There must be some kind of “bias” label (excuse) for this problem, just like there’s a bias label (excuse) for everything else.

You're ridiculous and out of touch.

What jobs start at 6 (assuming a wake time of 5)? Among the earliest of careers, construction, can't even start until 7.

I'm up the earliest of ALL my friends at 5 and not a one besides my teacher and construction friends is at work before 8.

And to say teenagers are lazy is just plain ignorant.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You're ridiculous and out of touch.

What jobs start at 6 (assuming a wake time of 5)? Among the earliest of careers, construction, can't even start until 7.

I'm up the earliest of ALL my friends at 5 and not a one besides my teacher and construction friends is at work before 8.

And to say teenagers are lazy is just plain ignorant.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Well, aren't you the kinder / gentler liberal. I'm ridiculous, out of touch and ignorant. Nice job!

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Well, aren't you the kinder / gentler liberal. I'm ridiculous, out of touch and ignorant. Nice job!

I am surprised you were not called a deplorable.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I am surprised you were not called a deplorable.

Only half of the former President's supporters fell into the basket of deplorables - I am sure no one on this forum falls in to that racist, xenophobic, sexist, etc. half!

Seriously, my feeling is that from a Lakes Region/tourist perspective permanent daylight saving time is best. Regardless of the season, more light at the end of the day would benefit the tourist/vacationing crowd.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I am surprised you were not called a deplorable.

I just looked in the mirror and called myself one. Felt great actually!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Well, aren't you the kinder / gentler liberal. I'm ridiculous, out of touch and ignorant. Nice job!

Yeah, it was aggressive, but to call all teenagers lazy and then question what is clearly documented after posting Breitbart articles?! C'mon, now.

Your standard defense to posting clearly biased articles is to make fun of being called out for posting clearly biased articles, not unlike DEJ above, rather than addressing the topic.

Point out how the science is wrong, and let's discuss.

Calling all my students lazy, though? I'm gonna call you out for ignorance.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DEJ]

Thank you think, you just cannot resist, typical.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Thank you think, you just cannot resist, typical.

Hahahaha! I keep checking my inbox for your attack message. Sad face.

Y'all are just upset that there's somebody to call you out on your old-guy-these-kids-must-be-lazy-for-my-narrative-to-work bunk.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Hahahaha! I keep checking my inbox for your attack message. Sad face.

Y'all are just upset that there's somebody to call you out on your old-guy-these-kids-must-be-lazy-for-my-narrative-to-work bunk.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

What's this "Called You Out" nonsense? You always give the impression that you're right, everyone else is wrong, and that your word is gospel. FAKE NEWS!

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

What's this "Called You Out" nonsense? You always give the impression that you're right, everyone else is wrong, and that your word is gospel. FAKE NEWS!

You should know by now think is always right, LOL.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

What's this "Called You Out" nonsense? You always give the impression that you're right, everyone else is wrong, and that your word is gospel. FAKE NEWS!

This is circular. When I make comments, they're based on reasoning using data and science and information from as bias-free-as-possible sources. From there, I expect to have discussions with others who see different solutions.

You, as I AND OTHERS have pointed out, use clearly biased foundations on which to make your comments.

So, here goes (again): DST changes are leading to talks about later school start times that unbiased, reliable data has shown to be beneficial.

Secondarily, are teens becoming lazy? Not the ones I work with and know. But they are spending more time on activities, sports, and "chosen" jobs in an attempt to improve their college acceptance/scholarship opportunities rather than just outright work tons of hours at all hours.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

This is circular. When I make comments, they're based on reasoning using data and science and information from as bias-free-as-possible sources. From there, I expect to have discussions with others who see different solutions.

You, as I AND OTHERS have pointed out, use clearly biased foundations on which to make your comments.

So, here goes (again): DST changes are leading to talks about later school start times that unbiased, reliable data has shown to be beneficial.

Secondarily, are teens becoming lazy? Not the ones I work with and know. But they are spending more time on activities, sports, and "chosen" jobs in an attempt to improve their college acceptance/scholarship opportunities rather than just outright work tons of hours at all hours.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

When you make comments against what you do not agree with you most always throw in a personal attack, that is my main issue with you and liberals in general. Your way or the highway. Carry on, much more important things in life. Out, have the last word if you must.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by DEJ

When you make comments against what you do not agree with you most always throw in a personal attack, that is my main issue with you and liberals in general. Your way or the highway. Carry on, much more important things in life. Out, have the last word if you must.

So passive-aggression is not a personal attack? Gotcha.

SP's quip about "peer-reviewed" (that Garcia corrected him on) was exactly that.

And who's politicizing this but you?

Any thoughts on start times or DST changes?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

So passive-aggression is not a personal attack? Gotcha.

SP's quip about "peer-reviewed" (that Garcia corrected him on) was exactly that.

And who's politicizing this but you?

Any thoughts on start times or DST changes?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

You win, happy now?

[Boatbottom952]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

So passive-aggression is not a personal attack? Gotcha.

SP's quip about "peer-reviewed" (that Garcia corrected him on) was exactly that.

And who's politicizing this but you?

Any thoughts on start times or DST changes?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I sure hope you didn't snap your fingers when you said " Gotcha "

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Boatbottom952

I sure hope you didn't snap your fingers when you said " Gotcha "

My sausage link fingers don't snap, so it's an impossibility, but thanks for the laugh!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Secondarily, are teens becoming lazy? Not the ones I work with and know. But they are spending more time on activities, sports, and "chosen" jobs in an attempt to improve their college acceptance/scholarship opportunities rather than just outright work tons of hours at all hours.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

No question that today's teens are under much more pressure than older Americans were. Stagnant wages, increased college tuition, increased real estate costs, increased competitiveness at many colleges, covid, anxiety-inducing social apps...

Except for those who faced the Vietnam draft, or grew up in poverty or an especially difficult home; we had a walk in the park

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No question that today's teens are under much more pressure than older Americans were. Stagnant wages, increased college tuition, increased real estate costs, increased competitiveness at many colleges, covid, anxiety-inducing social apps...

Except for those who faced the Vietnam draft, or grew up in poverty or an especially difficult home; we had a walk in the park

I think of this often when I compare what I paid at UML vs. what the costs are now—almost quadruple...with wages increasing barely at all.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

It is just going to be very expensive for patrons when a business has to pay the premium for life balance that the patrons are requesting.

The worker is expecting the same full-size luxury auto/truck that the patrons are driving, the same weekend of boating/snowmobiling, and the same vacation home.

It isn't a matter of lazy... it is a matter of what they are being taught by the world around them.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Hahahaha! I keep checking my inbox for your attack message. Sad face.

Y'all are just upset that there's somebody to call you out on your old-guy-these-kids-must-be-lazy-for-my-narrative-to-work bunk.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yup true to form, thanks think.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yeah, it was aggressive, but to call all teenagers lazy and then question what is clearly documented after posting Breitbart articles?! C'mon, now.

Your standard defense to posting clearly biased articles is to make fun of being called out for posting clearly biased articles, not unlike DEJ above, rather than addressing the topic.

Point out how the science is wrong, and let's discuss.

Calling all my students lazy, though? I'm gonna call you out for ignorance.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

See, the problem is, things are bias in your mind. Not everyone thinks they're bias, otherwise the platform would have no support and would disolve. I've said before that conservatives attack opposing ideas, but liberals attack their opposition with personal attacks. My skin is very thick, so I have no problem with it.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

See, the problem is, things are bias in your mind. Not everyone thinks they're bias, otherwise the platform would have no support and would disolve. I've said before that conservatives attack opposing ideas, but liberals attack their opposition with personal attacks. My skin is very thick, so I have no problem with it.

Bias and attacks? We're talking about published scientific research that shows benefits to later start times and you're criticizing a whole population of Americans.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Bias and attacks? We're talking about published scientific research that shows benefits to later start times and you're criticizing a whole population of Americans.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

And you basically without actually doing so called seaplane pilot a deplorable, nice, real nice.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

What jobs start at 6 (assuming a wake time of 5)? Among the earliest of careers, construction, can't even start until 7.

I'm up the earliest of ALL my friends at 5 and not a one besides my teacher and construction friends is at work before 8.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

There are a lot of jobs that are not 9 to 5. Police Officer, Firefighter, truck driver, nurse, factory shift work, news reporter, Etc. The list is endless. Go out on the interstate any morning at 4 or 5 AM. Look at the traffic. These people are not all going on vacation.

I drove trucks over one million miles when I was in my 20's and 30's and worked between 58 and 60 hours per week at that job. Most start times were between 4 AM and 6 AM. If you had a later start time you felt like you were sleeping in. I had a second job on weekends.

When I was in school, from the 7th grade on, I had a morning paper route that I had to deliver before I showered and went to school. In 7th grade due to a school building project we had double sessions and the school day started at 7 AM.

Some people don't know how good they have it and their parents are doing them no favors by allowing them to be lazy. Much of the published information is written by people who never lived in the real world, they just went to college, got a bunch of degrees, and then made a career out of writing papers on how other people should live their lives.

It has been said that 70% of all psychiatrists are under the treatment of other psychiatrists. Sometimes too much time in school can be a bad thing.

https://www.spiritualresearchfoundat...ental-illness/

[Descant]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You're ridiculous and out of touch.

What jobs start at 6 (assuming a wake time of 5)? Among the earliest of careers, construction, can't even start until 7.

I'm up the earliest of ALL my friends at 5 and not a one besides my teacher and construction friends is at work before 8.

Out of touch? What jobs? Look around. What tr5ime do bus drivers start their day? Hospital, Fire, Police have been working all night. Listen to the radio on the way to work? What time did those folks start? Or the guy at Dunkins? Anybody who is in the military is working 24/7 so you can sleep peacefully. I grew up in the flower business--The Boston Flower Exchange opened at 6:00 am until noon and the vendors were there before and after those hours. We can all think of dozens of jobs where people are working before 8:00 am and keeping your world running.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Descant

Out of touch? What jobs? Look around. What tr5ime do bus drivers start their day? Hospital, Fire, Police have been working all night. Listen to the radio on the way to work? What time did those folks start? Or the guy at Dunkins? Anybody who is in the military is working 24/7 so you can sleep peacefully. I grew up in the flower business--The Boston Flower Exchange opened at 6:00 am until noon and the vendors were there before and after those hours. We can all think of dozens of jobs where people are working before 8:00 am and keeping your world running.

This pushback against teens and circadian rhythms is all kind of weird and arguing about nothing, some sort of funny identity politics. Especially since it starts with a request for peer reviewed studies...and then won't accept peer reviewed studies...even before those studies are read by those complaining.

Descant's post and mine are in agreement--there is no standard wake up time, whether it's for college or Dunks. Given that, some sound like old men reminiscing about walking uphill to school each morning, and then walking uphill to get back home

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Descant

Out of touch? What jobs? Look around. What tr5ime do bus drivers start their day? Hospital, Fire, Police have been working all night. Listen to the radio on the way to work? What time did those folks start? Or the guy at Dunkins? Anybody who is in the military is working 24/7 so you can sleep peacefully. I grew up in the flower business--The Boston Flower Exchange opened at 6:00 am until noon and the vendors were there before and after those hours. We can all think of dozens of jobs where people are working before 8:00 am and keeping your world running.

Other than "off-shifts," the world is 8/9-5. And, if you're going to base the argument on wake time, neither second nor third shift are up before 8!

I drive Route 3 EVERY DAY at 5:30-6 AM, and it's clear sailing. By 7, when people are commuting in for their 8/9-5s, it starts to back up. At 7PM-5AM it's essentially zero—I saw this for years working overnights and night school.

The point I was making is that students wouldn't be at all weird getting up at 7/8 for a school start of 8/9.

And (almost) all (I've not read EVERY piece) research shows myriad benefits of that.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Were these “peer reviewed” studies? Our grandparents got up at 5 because they had jobs and worked their butts off. Teenagers sleep until noon because they’re lazy and still have their umbilical cords plugged into their parents (who are mostly at fault because they enable this behavior). There must be some kind of “bias” label (excuse) for this problem, just like there’s a bias label (excuse) for everything else.

Yes, peer reviewed, science based studies on this topic have been around for quite a while.

As to eliminating daylight saving time, sleep experts advocate for standard time year round, https://sleepeducation.org/resources...t-saving-time/.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Literally almost every study shows that young people's circadian rhythms are different than really young and old people's. It's the reason why our grandparents would get up at 5 and our teens will sleep in until noon. There's no secret there.

Areas that have later start times for young people have improved academic scores, higher rates of attendance, better physical and mental health outcomes, reduced dependence in caffeine, fewer driving accidents...there's a multitude of benefits.

Besides, we're like totally talking about starting school at 8-9 AM, which is, like, EXACTLY the core starting time for "real jobs." Ya know, like the song says, "workin' 9-5, what a way to make a livin'!"

Oh, no—did I just slip into FLL for a moment there?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I must be really old (I am). I grew up in a household that had two parents working and me, the only child, going to school. We had one bathroom. I was always third for the bathroom. So I got up early so I could have my breakfast while waiting for Mom and Dad to finish their turn in the bathroom. Of course in the winter time, if it snowed, I became the snow removal company. That had to be done before I headed off to school. School started at 8, and I walked little over a quarter of a mile to catch the bus at around 7:15 in the morning.

In the summer, I still got up early because my friends and I would be packing up to go on a ride on our bicycles to spend the day fishing or exploring. In the summertime growing up, if you wanted to watch television at 9:30 in the morning, you got to watch a very interesting test pattern, because that's all that was on.

If you want the kids to have a more normal life pattern, kick them out of bed early, have them make their own breakfast, put limits on when television can be on, limits on the cell phones and the iPad or tablets, and send them outside to get fresh air and join in activities with their friends and Neighbors.

My humble opinion, is that parents today have allowed kids' "rhythms" to get so far out of whack. Your opinion probably will vary.

Dave