Lower Crowds

[Weirs guy]

I think there's a drastic diffrence between southern NH (Concord and south) and the lakes region on north (we used to joke that anything south of Bow was part of Mass anyway). I don't think a lot of 20 somethings looking for a tech job and nightlife would be anywhere north of Concord, and any 20 something looking for a quieter life would be south of there. Now, there may be a connection between the southern part of the state loosing 20 somethings and the crowds here being down this summer.

[Airwaves]

Dave R wrote:
That said, I think it's ludicrous to think that the internet has much to do with poor tourism when we've had such an awful Spring/early Summer and such a cold August during a general economic downturn nationwide.
__________________

I agree, my postings re: the Boston Media were in response to Winnipesaukee Divers contention that it was inaccurate coverage of Winnipesaukee issues by Boston TV that was responsible for the perception among some that Winni is a lawless wild west kind of place with GFBL boats everwhere doing 70 mph.
My contention is that the internet played a much larger role than anything the Boston media did or didn't do as far as creating the perception.

As far as the drop off in tourism this year, The day trippers were effected by the weather, longer term renters were cautious because of the economy. It doens't get much simpler.

I also agree that 20 somethings are less likely to look toward the Lakes Region to settle. Perhaps this downturn in the economy will cool things off for a while. While it will be bad for the pocketbooks it might be a good thing in the long run.

BTW I never understood families that bought homes in Southern NH and worked in Mass, they end up with a double wammy! High NH property taxes AND paying Massachusetts income tax!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I agree, my postings re: the Boston Media were in response to Winnipesaukee Divers contention that it was inaccurate coverage of Winnipesaukee issues by Boston TV that was responsible for the perception among some that Winni is a lawless wild west kind of place with GFBL boats everwhere doing 70 mph.
My contention is that the internet played a much larger role than anything the Boston media did or didn't do as far as creating the perception.


BTW I never understood families that bought homes in Southern NH and worked in Mass, they end up with a double wammy! High NH property taxes AND paying Massachusetts income tax!

I think we are in agreement.

When I was a 20 something, we bought a house in southern NH for half what we would have paid in Northern MA where I work. That half price goes a long way toward paying higher property taxes AND my drive to the lake is <1 hour. It was not a concious decision to pay more taxes, it was a decision to have more house for less money. No regrets.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think we are in agreement.

When I was a 20 something, we bought a house in southern NH for half what we would have paid in Northern MA where I work. That half price goes a long way toward paying higher property taxes AND my drive to the lake is <1 hour. It was not a concious decision to pay more taxes, it was a decision to have more house for less money. No regrets.

My parents made the exodus from greater Boston. I guess it was my decision to pay high NH property taxes and high Mass income taxes. I accepted that juicy job offer and Chelmsford didn't seem all that far from Nashua. Twenty-five years later, I'm still paying. Maybe my tag line should be:

Just ANOTHER Mass TAXPAYER that is NOT allowed to VOTE!

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

If you can't even get my story straight when it printed out right in front of you, how do you expect these fine folks here on the forum to have any respect for anything you say from now on? Actually, I though you were making a pretty good case even though you were extrapolating the facts a little far, but then you went and stuck your foot right in your mouth.

Good thing Don put the "edit" button on the bottom of the page... Perhaps you should re-read my post then go back to your last post and make the corrections. Looks like you’re a little touchy about the media, wonder why that is?

BTW: What size boat did you say you had???

[Airwaves]

winnipseaukee Divers originally wrote:

So here is the up shot: most people get their information from the media namely the TV where the story has been slanted to discourage boat traffic.

If you didn't believe this statement, why did you write it? As I have shown the story has NOT been slanted to discourage boat traffic, in fact Lake Winnipesaukee has not even made a ripple on Boston TV or Media.

But then you went even a step further yourself!

Who’s driving this media campaign? Well, in my mind, it’s the same people who keep telling the biggest boat that should be allowed on the lake is a 24 footer, which just so happens to be the size of the boat parked in their slip in front of their house. Looks like it’s done a pretty good job.

And with that statement not only did you accuse me and my colleagues of slanting a story that didn't exist, but announced that we are part of an organized campaign to eliminate a class of boat from the lake!

Yep, I took it personal, you challenged my integrity and I don't react well to that.

FYI, I control two boats the one on Winni is a 21' Cobalt 235HP

[Lakegeezer]

During the speed limit debate, the Manchester Union Leader had at least one editorial that promoted the speed limit. It parroted many of the fear arguments which were well refuted in this forum. It was as if they just used the press releases that they were given by the speed-limit political action committee. I was insulted when the Union Leader did not print a "letter to the editor" that I wrote to refute their editorial.

I believe that much of the news is impacted by special interests - and there is little fact checking. The Karr (Benoit murder suspect) sensation that the news community inflicted us with last week is a good example of why we shouldn't be trusting journalists. It was front page news every day, yet it was pretty clear - very early - that it would end like it did. Faux news gets the ratings I guess.

Reasons to be afraid sell well too. I don't watch the Boston news stations so can't comment on their impact on the Mass attitude of Winni - but I am confident that the speed-limit proponents and their PAC money influenced the press, right before they took the faux poll that indicated people had been made afraid of boating on the lake. Their "education" of the public probably had some impact on the "dangerous lake" traffic. For that, I thank them.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Where do you see in my original post any reference to the "Boston" media??? To set this record straight: the woman I was talking to said she lives in Pittsfield NH. However, she was just one of many who have express concerns on safety on the lake due to overcrowding. When asked just where they get this impression they all say the media...

It is clear to me just who's driving this campaign any why... People always single me out due in part to the size of my boat to engage me in conversations. These conversation always lead to the topic of overcrowding and danger of boating on the lake now days. Surprisingly many even lecture me on banning all boats over 24' because we take up to much space. My response is: I just smile and shake my head walk off thinking to myself "What a wack job" Just like I 'm going to do with you, Airwaves.

[SIKSUKR]

Thank you.

[fatlazyless]

Dark brown mahogany, green below the water line, 32' pointed at both bow & stern and powered by a Ford 12 cylinder flathead that sounds like a rumbling low roar. That speed boat has been out on the water, cruising past buoy 3 quite a bit, lately. Supposedly, Henry Ford II used to commute from Dearborn down the Rouge River to the Ford Rouge River Plant where they built Fords in the 1930's.

What's the latest on the famous 47', yellow & purple checkered, three motor-1600hp Fountain that was in the news a lot, last year. It has disappeared? I did see a boat identical to it being trailered down Rt 93 by a Rhode Island landscape contractor truck last Spring. Has it moved to the Rhode island ocean, like in Newport or somewhere? Where is it? It was listed for sale at Silver Sands.That was a super-cool boat!

Maybe, I need to remove my name from the WinnFabs local decision petition..............yesterday's scourge is today's fascination, now that their numbers have been reduced by 75 percent thanks to crummy summer weather and $2.87 gas.




What-a-boat!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What's the latest on the famous 47', yellow & purple checkered, three motor-1600hp Fountain that was in the news a lot, last year.

Actually it was 1890hp but who's counting?

I saw it tied up at Glendale 3-4 weeks ago. I parked right behind it. There is a 42' in Mass that looks very similar that is for sale currently.

[SIKSUKR]

I'm pretty sure Mark B. sold the Fountain.I have seen it on the lake only twice this year.

[Woodsy]

Summa Humma is on the lake still. Its moored in paugus Bay and can sometimes be found docked in the Weirs Channel...

Woodsy

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Dark brown mahogany, green below the water line, 32' pointed at both bow & stern and powered by a Ford 12 cylinder flathead that sounds like a rumbling low roar. That speed boat has been out on the water, cruising past buoy 3 quite a bit, lately. Supposedly, Henry Ford II used to commute from Dearborn down the Rouge River to the Ford Rouge River Plant where they built Fords in the 1930's.
What-a-boat!

Actually, that was his Dad's doings - Edsel Ford. The boat was named Typhoon, from the engine model used to power her.

You are seeing a shorter version on the Lake. Hangs out in Smith Cove with some other examples of horsepower encased in mahogany and chrome.

Here's an even shorter version of the original:

[Airwaves]

Lakegeezer wrote:

During the speed limit debate, the Manchester Union Leader had at least one editorial that promoted the speed limit. It parroted many of the fear arguments which were well refuted in this forum. It was as if they just used the press releases that they were given by the speed-limit political action committee. I was insulted when the Union Leader did not print a "letter to the editor" that I wrote to refute their editorial.

The Union leader, last I looked, was a New Hampshire newspaper read by locals. The Union Leader has had an agenda since the days of William Loeb so it's not surprising they would spin an issue to their liking. Stories from the UL are generally not reprinted in Boston so their spin had little or not impact on the perception of Winni on folks outside of NH. As I showed prior by posting who carried the story, it got coverage in NH, very little elsewhere.

Winnipesaukee Divers wrote:

Where do you see in my original post any reference to the "Boston" media??? To set this record straight: the woman I was talking to said she lives in Pittsfield NH. However, she was just one of many who have express concerns on safety on the lake due to overcrowding. When asked just where they get this impression they all say the media...

And there-in lies the rub. The MEDIA is the culprit. Not local media, not Union Leader, Media to which you quickly replied (and rightly so) that most folks get their news from TV. What TV? The most watched TV in the region is Boston TV. So by blaming Media you are putting a blanket blame on all of us whether we've even heard of the story or not!

This story was then, and continues to be, a LOCAL story. If your beef is with the local media go after them, name them, confront them but by saying media it paints all media, including me, in the same light.

Winnipesaukee Divers wrote:

It is clear to me just who's driving this campaign any why... People always single me out due in part to the size of my boat to engage me in conversations. These conversation always lead to the topic of overcrowding and danger of boating on the lake now days. Surprisingly many even lecture me on banning all boats over 24' because we take up to much space. My response is: I just smile and shake my head walk off thinking to myself "What a wack job" Just like I 'm going to do with you, Airwaves.

Poor you, if playing a martyr makes you feel good fine. The fact is you blame Media (without exception) for the perception of Winni being dangerous and that fact is wrong. Like it or not.

[ApS]

It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.
—Yogi Berra

This lower-crowd circumstance will continue as long as:

1) Present trends continue (boat prices, bigger boats, bigger wakes, fewer summer rentals, bigger but unused homes, diminishing lakewater quality, serious flips, serious collisions, alcohol, drownings, Bike Week fatalities, Lakes Region crime/drug increases, sleaze, editorials, forums, media, talk-radio, raised boater consciousness, economic pressures for change.) It didn't help when the New Hampshire Marine Patrol said, "21-foot Bow Riders Were The Problem".

2) There are no totally new "surprises".

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...Oddly, they cited the economic health as one of the reasons for the proposed speed limit. It would be kinda ironic if they actaully caused the economic downturn through hype in their attempt to "educate" us.

They were sponsored by a great many local businesses who saw that no change would bring a downturn in business for them.

In this forum, you'll find a 2003 quote that appears prescient while we view today's "Lower Crowds":

"...The MP works for the governor, and, like the marinas that are all so "pro-power", the govenor is on the side of the element that brings in the most cash. The only way that things will change on this lake are;
a) the lake gets SO bad that people stop coming with their dollars.
b) the silent majority organizes and gains more political influence than the marina's and business and thereby forces change..."

Maybe what we're looking at IS the future: Fewer crowds bringing in more money.

The lake belongs to them.

[Woodsy]

I wasn't going to chime in, but its getting a little skewed here....

There are ALOT of factors at play here.

The media is a definitely factor, but I think its a very small factor. The entire Winnfabs argument for a speed limit was based on fear mongering and how Lake Winnipesaukee is not safe. Statistically they were proven wrong, but they told (and continue to tell) whomever would listen how unsafe they thought the lake was/is. The battle was followed closely nationwide by advocates on both sides. They got alot of local press and even some national press. I am pretty sure there was an article in the Wall St. Journal. There were more than a few articles in the Boston Globe.

I think the primary reason we are seeing a downturn is the price of gas. Most people are on a tight budget and the exponential rise in the price of gas is having a serious impact on thier bottom line. Lake Winnipesaukee has traditionally had a "blue collar" or "middle class" demographic. These are the people hit hardest by the price of gas. Its not that coming up to the lake costs an extra $100 or $200. The issue is that commuting to work costs an extra $200+ per month and that money has to come from somewhere, usually the fun budget. This eliminates alot of the daytrippers with the smaller boats. I am sure the hotel business is also suffering also. Where a family would stay at a hotel/motel for a week, they now stay for 3-4 days over a weekend.

Woodsy

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The issue is that commuting to work costs an extra $200+ per month and that money has to come from somewhere, usually the fun budget.
Woodsy

You got it Woodsy.

[Airwaves]

APS...Talk-radio?

There's talk radio in the Lakes Region? I've been looking for a "Live and Local" station to listen to when I'm up there. (the majority are voice tracked or syndicated much of the time)

What station(s) is it?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

WEMJ (1490), WEZS (1350) and WASR (1420) all AM and WTPL (107.7) in Concord. Some syndiacted stuff, but also a lot of local (Alan Emerson, Neil Young, etc.)

[Weirs guy]

OK, back off topic. Anyone remember the "Fountain of Youth" from the early 90's? If so any idea what ever happened to her? I used to have an unofficial date with it every labor day, I worked at the resuraunt at the end of the peir and would go in early on labor day. The only other person around was the Fountain, and what a great way to end the season.

[beagle]

Just to throw in my 2 cents---We have been vacationing on the Cape for about 20 years, and there were fewer crowds there too. I think it is mostly the economy, people don't have as much extra money as they used to. It would be interesting to see statistics re other vacation spots across the country. We actually tried to find a house rental on Winni first, because we are thinking of investing in a retirement house there-you know more stuff to do especially in the winter. However, we found rental prices extremely expensive, and not much selection if you want to be on the water. We ended up renting on the Cape (again!) for less than 60% of the price of an equivalent house on the lake. Maybe the higher prices on Winni are a result of the fact that many fewer people rent their homes out in the summer at the lake? And maybe that's also the reason for less crowds, too as more homes sit empty for part of the summer. BTW, I read the forum almost every day, and it has had no affect on my desire to be at the lake!

[SIKSUKR]

Back on topic.This story from WMUR kind of flies in the face of what I would have thought was a poor spring with all of the rain. http://www.wmur.com/money/9768533/detail.html

[jrc]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Back on topic.This story from WMUR kind of flies in the face of what I would have thought was a poor spring with all of the rain. http://www.wmur.com/money/9768533/detail.html

Wow, exactly the opposite of what I would have expected. It's amazing that they are predicting a good Labor Day turnout, since rain is predicted form Sunday and Monday.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Back on topic.This story from WMUR kind of flies in the face of what I would have thought was a poor spring with all of the rain. http://www.wmur.com/money/9768533/detail.html

Wasn't the topic this question by jrc?

"...Winni is not a park with easy to measure entrance fees as a benchmark. Do people on this site see the kind of drop off reported in the article...?"

I think jrc is looking for anecdotal observations from the lake itself, and not "the news" which could be a cut-and-paste from the NH Chamber of Commerce.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

APS...Talk-radio?
There's talk radio in the Lakes Region? I've been looking for a "Live and Local" station to listen to when I'm up there. (the majority are voice tracked or syndicated much of the time)
What station(s) is it?

Lake Winnipesaukee gets an occasional mention on Boston's "Howie Carr Show", 680AM, WRKO. (Heard on Winnipesaukee, and also available on the Internet—worldwide).

His producer presents an annual segment titled, "Stupid Things I Did While Boating Drunk".

I was surprised to hear the same theme again this August, as last year's segment had ended suddenly when callers tearfully described boating tragedies in their families.

This year's callers must have been screened, as most were of the variety,
"Hold My Beer and Watch This...."

In other not-widely-known-news is that a large rafting party is scheduled for Winnipesaukee's Badger Island this Sunday. It is expected to have a sizable contingent from out of state: let's see how that party speaks to jrc's question.